Phil Jackson: Legend or Just Plain Lucky? Do you think Phil Jackson is really the amazing hall of fame caliber coach that he's cracked up to be, or do you think he's overrated and Michael Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, etc. are the ones who are responsible for all of his success? If Phil Jackson was the coach of the Nuggets or another lackluster team in the 90's, would he be considered the same high caliber coach that he is considered to be today? Discuss. ------------- I think he's overrated and any other decent coach would have had the same success Phil Jackson had if put in the same position to be coaching the greatest player in the history of the game. Any team is bound to eventually win championships if you've got Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, etc. and Shaq, Kobe, etc. regardless of who the coach is and I firmly believe that any half decent coach would have had the same success if they were fortunate enough to coach those same players.
I also think he's overrated. When he came into the Bulls, he had Jordan and Pippen. After that, he didn't select the draft picks. He didn't select the trades, or anything else. It was all Jerry Krause. When he came into the Lakers, he had been lucky. Kobe and Shaq. He alreayd knew they were good, and were going to become all-time greats. Now that Malone and Payton have come in, he's more lucky. All those championships are responsible for the players, not him.
I think he's plain lucky(Jordan, Pippen, Bryant, O'Neal, Malone), but he's a good coach, not great, not bad, just good.
if were talking x's and o's, hes mediocre at best. the whole thing the media had hyped about the guy was his ability to handle big egos, being the zen master....well, all of that is moot if they dont produce on the floor. for the first time, we can kinda see that happening.
he is really lucky but he is for sure not a bad coach. He can manage big egos and play balanced basketball. The thing is that everybody point out larry brown as a real HOF coach. Well then why the lakers didn't pick him up, why did they choose phil jackson, an awful coach. They didn't pick brown because they knew that the lakers can't play like the pistons. The crowd will be gone before the end of the season. And what is more important for a team than the crowd. Did you remember the bulls, the fan they had around the globe, did the sixers have the same fan base, do the pistons have the same fan base. Defense can eventually win you a championship at the expense of loosing crowd, but no, defense don't win championship. A balanced team win championship. But as it seems that the pistons will win the 2004 nba championship a lot of band wagonners are talking about defense as the only important thing in the game.
lucky haha, its not like mj, pippen, shaq, malone, kobe weren't around before phil. kobe and shaq were there almost everyone, its not like devean george helped them win the title in '00. its not like the bulls didn't have everyone else before phil came. and still even when jordan did leave they still did better and were better than most teams. just more laker haters
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tidi:</div><div class="quote_post">They didn't pick brown because they knew that the lakers can't play like the pistons. The crowd will be gone before the end of the season.</div> Are you joking? Larry Brown is infamous for designing absolutely crazy plays right out of timeouts which are alley oops to Ben Wallace or someone, if those don't put fans in seats then I don't know what will. The Palace is packed every single night, even before the Pistons were championship contenders, the only reason the crowd would be gone before the end of the season in LA is because the majority (I never said all, so don't get on my case about it) of Lakers fans are lousy bandwagoners, all the way from anytown, USA to Shanghai. I'd rather watch Detroit Pistons eastern conference brand grind it out basketball than any western conference match up any day. Fast paced Lakers vs. Dallas or Lakers vs. Sac town just isn't as fun to watch, imo. The Lakers are like the Yankees, everyone loves the hate them.
Accord, I do respect you as a moderator, but, there are some things I just don't get. One of them being how you would rather watch a boring, grind it out series, like the one we just saw with Detroit/Indiana, than watching exciting stuff like the '02 WCF when the Kings and Lakers went at it. In my opinion, that is exciting basketball. Defensive games are plain boring to me. When you can win scoring sub-70, something is wrong. The other thing I don't get is how you consider Phil overrated. Because, look at it this way. How many titles did Michael and Scottie win with the Bulls before Phil came there. Oh yes, that's correct, NONE. How about Kobe, Shaq, and the Lakers. Lets look at it this way, the year before Phil came, they were swept by the Spurs. See, neither of those teams with their repsective superstars could win a title before Phil came. When he comes, the Bulls win 6 in 8 years and the Lakers win 3 straight and go to the Finals 4 times in 5 years and might win it for a 4th time. See, even if you have great players, you can't win without great coaching. Look at the Pistons this year. Now, not taking away anything from Rick Carlisle, he's a good coach and all, but, when Larry Brown comes, look what happens. They win 56 games, and make the NBA Finals for the first time in 14 years and might just win. Same thing with the Lakers when Phil came. They had all the essential elements to win the title, but, they didn't have a coach to lead them. Phil comes, they win 63 games and win the title. Phil Jackson is a great coach. He may inheret great players, but, those players had never won without him. Great coaches make great players better. That's what Phil does. He made Michael and Scottie into championship players and he's done the same with Shaq and Kobe. He is a great coach and I don't think that you can take anything away from him just because of the players he gets.
I'll watch any basketball game anytime, if there's a game on TV i'll be watching it. I don't care if it's Euroleague, NBDL, whatever... i'll watch it, oh and thank god for ESPN Classic . I just enjoy watching eastern conference defensive minded basketball more than the fast paced Kings/Dallas/etc. style basketball where defense is of no concern whatsoever. It's like these teams just go at it up and down the court and they don't even care about defense at all until it's the 4th quarter and the score is tied with 10 seconds left, it turns into a track meet rather than a basketball game. But like I said, I enjoy watching eastern conference defensive minded basketball more, it's just what I like. A low scoring defensive game where the first team that reaches 70 will probably win can be just as exciting as a 100+ point fast paced affair.
Phil Jackson is a legend. He is a different type of coach than the others because he has had all this talent already built around him, but that doesn't diminish anything he has done. Find another coach that can keep that many egos in line for so many years and win championship after championship. Hell, Larry Brown couldn't even do it with Allen Iverson alone. Keeping the athletes in line is just as important as making the plays on the sideline because they wouldn't even be listening if he couldn't keep them in line.
I too also believe Phil Jackson is overrated but at the same time I still know he is a great coach. He is known for making great adjustments after losses and keeping his team together. However, I do think he is being exposed in this finals. He has not been able to keep his team together so far. He has not been able to make the proper adjustments so far. And he is getting out coached so far. Sunsfan- Give Larry Brown the old Bulls and these Lakers and I promise you he will have just as many or more titles than Phillip.
I doubt Larry will have as many titles. He can't deal with one ego in Iverson, what makes you think he can deal with Jordan's ego, which is bigger than Iverson's? What makes you think he can also deal with Pippen's constant whining and complaining on top of dealing with Jordan's ego? He can't deal with Iverson, so how can he deal with Payton, Shaq, AND Kobe in one season? How about Shaq and Kobe over a few years? He has his most success with teams that really have no chemistry issues like the Pistons of this year and his Pacer teams of the past. I think Phil is really the only coach who can truly succeed in those given circumstances.
What about the Kobe and Shaq incident? He couldn't control them. They worked that out for themselves. They went public and even got in a scuffle didn't they? What about Payton crying like a baby and pretty much is costing the Lakers the series right now? Where is your precious Phil on this one? You are giving too much credit to Phil. Larry Brown has already proved to be a better coach in this series. He has been able to control Wallace hasn't he?
Phil was able to make sure that none of these incidents has gone onto the court and affected the productivity of the team over an extended period. His teams have always been able to regroup and play great basketball. The players have given that credit to Phil Jackson. The Lakers' best player Shaq has given that credit to Phil Jackson. Analysts have given that credit to Jackson as well as other coaches and management, yet fans can't see that and simply deny Jackson of his due credit. Payton may be an exception, but he is not the only reason why the Lakers are losing. Malone is hurt, the guards don't know how to get the ball to the guys who can actually score, and the Pistons right now are just plain out better. I'm giving Jackson the credit that people are robbing him of. No one is arguing Larry Brown as a great coach. His greatness shouldn't sway the greatness of Phil Jackson. Both are great in their own right, but Jackson has achieved greatness in a unique way from other coaches.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">What about the Kobe and Shaq incident? He couldn't control them. They worked that out for themselves. They went public and even got in a scuffle didn't they? </div> Nope, they got fined. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post"> What about Payton crying like a baby and pretty much is costing the Lakers the series right now? Where is your precious Phil on this one?</div> Phil is meditating, he doesn't believe in violence. :mrgreen: Payton is actng like a lil punk though, grow up Payton. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post"> You are giving too much credit to Phil. Larry Brown has already proved to be a better coach in this series. He has been able to control Wallace hasn't he?</div> Its amazing how Wallace hasn't done anything yet, now all they need is Kenyon Martin and Artest. Brown should start a anger management class. But Iverson isn't Michael. Plus, he had no back up like Scottie. Phil had Micharl(G.O.A.T) and Pippen(Side kick) Phil now have Kobe(MVP material), Shaq(MVP), Malone( 1 of the best PF's ever), Payton(All-star since he's playing so bad right now) All are Hall of Famers.
Phil is not just "lucky". Neither the Bulls nor the Lakers were even close to winning a championship before Phil became their coach. As I remember, Shaq got swept a couple times out of the playoffs with the Magic and then the Lakers before he had any success at all with Phil. It's not an accident that he has great players playing for him, because they WANT to play for him. Who knows if MJ/Pippen or Shaq/Kobe would've left their respective teams to play for other teams. The reason why they stayed so long with Phil is because they respect his coaching abilities and know that he can bring them a championship. Near the end of his career MJ said he wouldn't play for anyone else other than Phil. He even said himself that he would've stayed with the Bulls had Phil been there and Jerry Krause not broken up the team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sunsfan1357:</div><div class="quote_post">Phil was able to make sure that none of these incidents has gone onto the court and affected the productivity of the team over an extended period. His teams have always been able to regroup and play great basketball. </div> Didn't Larry Brown still lead those Sixers with Iverson to an Eastern Conference Championship?
i think he's overrated, he had all those good players to coach, he didnt make jordan,kobe or shaq with his coaching skills. Its just one of those things where your in a good situation.
Yeah let's ignore the fact that these players WANT to and CHOOSE to play for Phil. There must be a reason for this, no? Rudeezy, yes that team with to the NBA Finals, but what happened soon after that? Larry kept having troubles with Iverson and he ran away, again.
