I came from an all-boys school in College. So I had a lot of gay classmates. Believe me, some of them became gays by choice. Some of them even were so straight before when they were in high school. They had girlfriends one after the other. They simply decided that they want to try men and stuck with it. But we're veering off topic. A few people are saying that RJ is gay, what made you say so?
There are a couple of points I'd like to make here 1. I don't believe any of us are qualified to say whether homosexuality is something you're born with or a choice you make later on in life. I happen to believe that like most characteristics, its a little of both. I analogize it to guys being leg men or breast men, it isn't something where one day you decided breasts (or legs or whatever else) were what most attracted you to a woman, it just sort of happened. But again, I'm no more qualified than anyone else to make a definitive statement, its just my opinion. 2. Why is it that homosexuality in the NBA is something people aren't comfortable with, but homosexuality in the WNBA is fine? Actually, that's one of the hidden benefits to Title IX and the proliferation of women's sports. You'd be surprised how many fears about something go away once its in the mainstream. 3. Whoever the first openly gay man in the NBA is, he's got to have a lot in common with Jackie Robinson. In some ways I think the tolerance level of Americans has increased dramatically in the last 50 years. In other ways I still think we're lagging behind. Homophobia is just like racism, its just got a religious component as well. The problem is that some people see the religious argument as a footnote, others see it as the main point. 4. I've played basketball with gay men and I've played with lesbians. Its no different than playing with other men or women. 5. Since people have brought up Christianity, I'll say that I'm an agnostic. But I always like to discuss "sins." Just in front of Leviticus 18:22 is Leviticus 18:19, "Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period." That's given equal weight in the bible to 18:22, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." So in the grand old scheme of letting him who is without sin cast the first stone, all of you who are against homosexuality while having ever tried to proposition a woman while she was on the rag can just go ahead and put those stones back in your pocket. My hope is that in 20-30 years people will look back at homophobia and wonder how they could have been so close-minded, just the way I hope everyone here looks at racism.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">1. I don't believe any of us are qualified to say whether homosexuality is something you're born with or a choice you make later on in life. I happen to believe that like most characteristics, its a little of both. I analogize it to guys being leg men or breast men, it isn't something where one day you decided breasts (or legs or whatever else) were what most attracted you to a woman, it just sort of happened. But again, I'm no more qualified than anyone else to make a definitive statement, its just my opinion.</div>Well said and I agree. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> 2. Why is it that homosexuality in the NBA is something people aren't comfortable with, but homosexuality in the WNBA is fine? Actually, that's one of the hidden benefits to Title IX and the proliferation of women's sports. You'd be surprised how many fears about something go away once its in the mainstream.</div>Homosexuality is something I am not comfortable with period. Its not that I'm afraid of it but its the simple fact that I do not agree with it. Maybe uncomfortable is not the best word, maybe unaccpepting is a better description. I am also not aware of the issue involving the NBA? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> 3. Whoever the first openly gay man in the NBA is, he's got to have a lot in common with Jackie Robinson. In some ways I think the tolerance level of Americans has increased dramatically in the last 50 years. In other ways I still think we're lagging behind. Homophobia is just like racism, its just got a religious component as well. The problem is that some people see the religious argument as a footnote, others see it as the main point.</div>I don't understand this. Am I a homophobe if I don't agree with their lifestyle? I would not mistreat anyone just because they are gay but at the same time I will not accept their lifestyle to accomidate them. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> 4. I've played basketball with gay men and I've played with lesbians. Its no different than playing with other men or women. </div>And it shouldn't be. Some people feel differently about gays than others. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> 5. Since people have brought up Christianity, I'll say that I'm an agnostic. But I always like to discuss "sins." Just in front of Leviticus 18:22 is Leviticus 18:19, "Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period." That's given equal weight in the bible to 18:22, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." So in the grand old scheme of letting him who is without sin cast the first stone, all of you who are against homosexuality while having ever tried to proposition a woman while she was on the rag can just go ahead and put those stones back in your pocket. </div>Disturbing but not too far off. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> My hope is that in 20-30 years people will look back at homophobia and wonder how they could have been so close-minded, just the way I hope everyone here looks at racism.</div>My hope is the exact opposite.
Out of interest Rudeezy, I know you're not a racist, but how can one accept someone for the colour of their skin/race, but not their sexuality? Do you accept people if they are of a different religion to you? It's all part of who the person is, how can you accept one aspect of someone, but then not accept their sexuality? EDIT - I'm not having a go at you in any sense, I'm just curious how you can accept certain aspects of someone, but not other aspects such as their sexuality.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">Out of interest Rudeezy, I know you're not a racist, but how can one accept someone for the colour of their skin/race, but not their sexuality? </div>Because I believe one is unnatural and is immoral. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you accept people if they are of a different religion to you? It's all part of who the person is, how can you accept one aspect of someone, but then not accept their sexuality?</div>Read my above response. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> EDIT - I'm not having a go at you in any sense, I'm just curious how you can accept certain aspects of someone, but not other aspects such as their sexuality.</div>Its cool, this is a good discussion.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Because I believe one is unnatural and is immoral. </div> i agree its unnatural, if it was natural they'd be able to have kids etc..
no matter what its discrimination, and the whole homophobia is a tough subject to discuss. However, I do feel that people are entiteld to thier own opinions regarding their opiniona nd should express it respectuflly(no problem on this board,just stating an opinion) and that regardless of sexual oreientation or antyhing else, all should be openly accepted everywhere. I feel that we have been taught to accept everybody, but why not homosexuals?. IMO oconversations like these should never have ever been started because we are taught to be non-discriminationg, "loving country"(I dont care aobut other homosexual issues like marraige, just satating what i feel like saying) I haven;'t read this thread(probably replied the first few pages hwen it was started), but I don't see why it shoudl amtter if a NBA player is openly gay as long as he can play. But if he wantas to play in the womens league and vice versa, than thats another question.
wtwalker 77 you can use point 5 to invalidate just about every type of "sin" in the bible. for example So in the grand old scheme of letting him who is without sin cast the first stone, all of you who are against bestiality while having ever tried to proposition a woman while she was on the rag can just go ahead and put those stones back in your pocket. Does that mean I should be accepting to bestiality? I personally do not agree with homsexuality, but I dont consider myself a homophobic. If I were a homophobic I would have a prejudice against homosexual people. I don't have any problems with homosexual people. Like Rudeezy, I just don't agree with their lifestyle.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">Because I believe one is unnatural and is immoral.</div> Fair enough. But how is someone who is a different religion to you differ from someone who is a different sexuality? Do you find both immoral? If not, how is one immoral and not the other?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">Fair enough. But how is someone who is a different religion to you differ from someone who is a different sexuality? Do you find both immoral? If not, how is one immoral and not the other?</div>Yes I do find some other religions immoral. Turning yourself into a bomb and killing innocent and than believing that will get you into heaven is immoral to me.
I don't have a problem with NBA players being homosexual...I do however have a problem with men who act very feminine and dramatic. I think some people (me included) dislike the stereotypical gay man, which is like I said feminine and dramatic. It doesn't have to do with the actual homosexual activities and beliefs but rather the way these men (gay or not) conduct themselves.
Supersonic it probably depend on the religion. You might find some to be moral and other to be immoral. I don't like how your are trying to make to compare two totally different things together.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Einitials:</div><div class="quote_post">Supersonic it probably depend on the religion. You might find some to be moral and other to be immoral. I don't like how your are trying to make to compare two totally different things together.</div> No I'm not trying to make a generalisation. I'm aware that different religions carry different requirements etc, some of which may be seen as immoral and wrong (Rudeezy's example is a good one). In fact religion is probably a bad example. I am just curious as to how you could accept someone from being different in other ways, like the colour of their skin, but then not accept their sexual preference. That's just me though, I'm not criticising someone who thinks differently.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Shard:</div><div class="quote_post"> I think some people (me included) dislike the stereotypical gay man, which is like I said feminine and dramatic. It doesn't have to do with the actual homosexual activities and beliefs but rather the way these men (gay or not) conduct themselves.</div> So if you knew someone was gay, but they didn't act in the stereotypical gay way, you would view them differently to a gay man who did?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sactown_dyme:</div><div class="quote_post">This argument wasn't about who's Christian and who ain't Christian man. It was about if homosexuality is a sin or not. Evidently it is if you read the verse I brought up. Just because they don't believe it's a sin or don't know it's a sin doesn't make it not a sin. So what you're saying about gays being Christians or every JBB member being Christian or not is entirely irrelevant. Aren't killers punished? Don't they go to jail? We're not worrying about gay people playing ball; this thread was about what do we think would happen if somebody decided to come out of the closet. And no offense, but I highly doubt you're a Christian if you believe that homosexuality isn't a sin. Not to challenge your Christianity or anything like that, but I'm just saying tho. Wow. Because I said that homosexuality is a sin then I don't like gay people. I don't agree with their lifestyle because it's sinful, not because I'm homophobic. Don't be making assumptions or getting words twisted. The only reason why I brought up Leviticus 18:22 was to show you that homosexuality is in fact a sin. So for you to twist it into me trying to say I don't like gays playing basketball is bull.</div> 1 - Actually my statement about being Christian or not IS relevant, because ONLY bible followers consider it a sin is what im saying. understand? why would a gay muslim or hindu care about what the bible says about gays. By you having your narrow minded view of "bible says sin, i say sin" is only your opinion. Science has proved the bible wrong in so many ways, i won't get into it to offend anyone (like i said i AM christian). So don't tell me that it IS a sin by fact, when the bible is a totally outdated document. 2 - By you saying "I highly doubt your a christian if you believe homosexuality isn't a sin" only goes to show how old fashion your morals are. Like i said, i don't believe its right and i don't agree with it, however who am i? (and who are you) to turn around and use the bible to say gays are sinners and it is wrong. No matter what your opinion is i am a born and raised christian. However i do not believe EVERY single aspect of the religion. And you will find many others agree with me. This is totally hypothetical, but if i - treat people with respect, was a good human being and all, did everything by the book BUT i liked someone of the same sex.. are you going to honestly tell me thats a sin? .. (please don't reply with "oh but it says it in leviticus") 3 - Sorry if that offended you. Im not trying to twist any of your words.. just havin a healthy argument.
1. Spree, you are wrong about your first point. Bible followers are Not the only ones who considers homosexuality as a sin. The Quran, the book of Islam, also states that homosexuality is a sin. Hinduism states that homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demonic. Buddhism is also not openly welcoming of homosexuality. The only religion that I can think of that fully approves of Homosexualiy is Greek Mythology. I know that for a fact, because some of the gods and heros were gay or bisexual like zeus and achilles. 2. I don't remember sactown dyme saying gays were sinners. What I remember him saying was that EVERYONE not just gays are sinners.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Spree:</div><div class="quote_post">1 - Actually my statement about being Christian or not IS relevant, because ONLY bible followers consider it a sin is what im saying.</div> Bible follower? It's called being a Christian. Like I said before, just because they don't believe it's a sin doesn't it make not a sin. If that verse didn't convince you that homosexuality is a sin then I don't know what will. Maybe God himself has to appear to you and tell you it is. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">understand? why would a gay muslim or hindu care about what the bible says about gays. By you having your narrow minded view of "bible says sin, i say sin" is only your opinion. Science has proved the bible wrong in so many ways, i won't get into it to offend anyone (like i said i AM christian). So don't tell me that it IS a sin by fact, when the bible is a totally outdated document.</div> The Bible is outdated? So let's just forget everything the Bible says because it doesn't apply to this new generation. Yeah, right. So if the Bible is so "outdated" then why do people still follow the Ten Commandments? If the Bible is so "outdated" then I guess Jesus never died on the cross because in the Bible it said he did. And BTW, the Bible has been rewritten many times over over time so it can't be outdated. Maybe in some aspects, but that doesn't mean that the things God says we shouldn't do doesn't apply to us anymore. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2 - By you saying "I highly doubt your a christian if you believe homosexuality isn't a sin" only goes to show how old fashion your morals are. Like i said, i don't believe its right and i don't agree with it, however who am i? (and who are you) to turn around and use the bible to say gays are sinners and it is wrong.</div> Omg. Why shouldn't I use the Bible to say gays are sinners when it says there plain and simple that they are?? It's not my opinion that they're sinners. God says that they are. And who has higher authority than that? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No matter what your opinion is i am a born and raised christian. However i do not believe EVERY single aspect of the religion. And you will find many others agree with me. This is totally hypothetical, but if i - treat people with respect, was a good human being and all, did everything by the book BUT i liked someone of the same sex.. are you going to honestly tell me thats a sin?</div> Now, I don't know if it's wrong to like somebody of the same gender. But sleeping with them, that's a different story. That's the sin. But in answer to the argument you're tryna make: If you were a good human being and all and you killed somebody, isn't that a sin? So what is different about homosexuality? God says not to do neither of them.
