Rod Thorn and Jerry West talking?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Kenyon's my favorite Net, but you gotta be serious, he's not worth the 103 million dollar contract he's seeking from the Nets...14 million per??? Are you kidding me? To me, 11 million (what they're offering) is generous enough, possibly too generous, for his services. He's a good player, not a great one. Meanwhile, Kidd has done more holding up the Nets than Kenyon. He's a leader, the brain, and what keeps the Nets alive. Kenyon is just a part. Kenyon + RJ = Amare and Marion and you see how well they've been doing in the West. Kidd has made it far into the playoffs with Marion and Rodney Rogers with the Suns. He might be getting old, but he deserves to stay in Jersey for the rest of his career. He's earned that. Kenyon, I love his game and flair, has not come even close to doing anything that Kidd has and should accept the 85 million dollars. Kidd is an arguable top 5 player, while KMart isn't even a top 5 power forward yet (KG, TD, JO, Dirk, Elton Brand/Webber(when healthy)) and there's other power forwards gaining grounds on him (Amare (who might surpass him next season) Zach Randolph, Pau Gasol (see Amare)). Jefferson said that he's willing to take a less than max contract cause he's willing to sacrafice for the team. If Kmart can't accept that, then I'll accept seeing him leave. But I will not stand for Kidd being traded cause he's earned every cent of the 105 million dollar contract.</div>

Nobody,is questioning whether kidd is a better, more important player than K-mart right now. We are simply say(or at least I am) that its better to invest in our future. Kidd has been great for the franchise, no doubt. But he is about to have a knee surgery that could have a huge effect on the rest of his career. A player like Kidd who relies so much on his legs & quickness, wont be te same type of player he was before his knee injury even if he recovers. So I rather invest in a younger, healthy K-Mart & Rj. This league is a post player dominant league. All the teams that are competive for championships have either one dominant post player or they have a deep frontline like Pistons. But either way, frontlines are very important to building a championship. And I dont want to lose an all-star player on our frontline that may never be able to be replaced.

Is K-Mart worth 100+ million dollars right now? Of course not. But he will be in 2 or 3 years. He is clearly on his way to being a 20 & 10 player in this league. In a season where kidd had his worst season as a Net imo, Kenyon Martin still improved. That tells you alot about the developemental steps that Martins' game is taking. He is becoming less depented on kidd. And starting to branch out using his on indiviual skills & growth. Which means we are now able to start building around him(And RJ) as our franchise's future.

You say that Martin + Jefferson(without Kidd)= Amare & the Martix, your right, if ownershp doesnt put the parts around K-Mart & RJ. Its managements job to put the proper parts around those 2, to make the rebuilding a smooth transition. Thats something PHX didnt do with Amare & Matrix. They have had no parts around them with the exception of Joe Johnson. And Steph(from the Kidd trade to his trade to the Knicks) so they never had the chance to really rebuild or grow as a franchise.

You say Zach Randolph & Pau Gosal are at/pass or close to the level of k-mart. That may be true on the offensive end. But that is far from the truth on the defensive end, those two cant guard a chair that is stationary. And thats what seperates K-Mart from most other PF, is his on ball defense. Very few Power forwards in this league guard better then K-Mart.

You cant go wrong with a guy who gives 100% on both ends off the court & Backboards. Has a heart of steel, & adds more to his offensive game every year. And only can get better over the next couple of years.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">But he is about to have a knee surgery that could have a huge effect on the rest of his career. A player like Kidd who relies so much on his legs & quickness, wont be te same type of player he was before his knee injury even if he recovers.</div>

I don't believe so. Kidd does rely on his quickness, but he's more of a mental player. He's like Gary Payton and John Stockton in that sense, able to use his mind to make up for any athletic deficiencies with age. His passing and court vision will never fade and sometimes that's just enough. He gets his steals from reading the defenses and intercepting passes so that might dip a steal a game but it'll still be around. He'll still be a top 5 point gaurd till he is 35, in my opinion.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post"> This league is a post player dominant league. All the teams that are competive for championships have either one dominant post player or they have a deep frontline like Pistons. </div>

It is, and Kenyon hasn't been able to show that he can dominate when playing against better frontlines. Dirk out plays Kenyon. KG outplays Kenyon. Tim Duncan (evident in the last finals, abeit some flut problems) outplays Kenyon. But with these guys, they're usually gonna get theres. My problem was that he had gone from a fearing power forward in the Knicks series to non-existing in the Detroit series. Credit Detroit's frontline, but do you think KG and Duncan would let the likes of Ben Wallace and Rasheed shut them down? No way. KG and TD would've gotten theirs.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Is K-Mart worth 100+ million dollars right now? Of course not. But he will be in 2 or 3 years.</div>

When he's worth the 100+ Million dollar contract, make sign him to an extension. Right now he's not and that's all I care about.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">In a season where kidd had his worst season as a Net imo, Kenyon Martin still improved. That tells you alot about the developemental steps that Martins' game is taking. </div>

I don't question Martin's work ethic, just the contract he thinks he deserves. Max contract players can carry a team, I don't think Kenyon can. RJ has shown he can, Kenyon has not.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You say that Martin + Jefferson(without Kidd)= Amare & the Martix, your right, if ownershp doesnt put the parts around K-Mart & RJ. Its managements job to put the proper parts around those 2, to make the rebuilding a smooth transition. Thats something PHX didnt do with Amare & Matrix. They have had no parts around them with the exception of Joe Johnson. And Steph(from the Kidd trade to his trade to the Knicks) so they never had the chance to really rebuild or grow as a franchise.
</div>

Well yes, but Jason Kidd never had much parts around him to make a great team. Look at his record with Phoenix:

In '99: He took a team to 53-29 secound round of the playoffs with his Clifford Robinson (18 ppg), Penny (17 ppg) and 6th man of the year Rodney Rogers (14 ppg). Gugliota was the only post player and he only played 54 games that year. That's pretty amazing.

In '01: His last season as a Sun he took the suns to the first round, record of 51-31, 3rd best in the west, 5 games away from being the 1st and the only player that scored more points than him was Shawn Marion (17.3 ppg). Shawn's average went up 7 points with Kidd helping his game.

This speaks volumes for Kidd's tract record. Jason Kidd makes the Nets win games, Kenyon helps. Kidd doesn't need much talent around him to win, Kmart might need a decent point gaurd, shooting gaurd and center to do this.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You say Zach Randolph & Pau Gosal are at/pass or close to the level of k-mart. That may be true on the offensive end. But that is far from the truth on the defensive end, those two cant guard a chair that is stationary. </div>

One-on-one you're right. But Pau, like Ben Wallace, is a very good team defender. He gets more blocks than Kenyon and is improving his defensive game. Not only that, he's a much better passer than Kenyon.

Randolph has the makings for a good defender. Whether he gets there or not is the question. He's relatively quick and has long arms. But if you replace Kenyon with Zach for the Nets and still have Kidd, the Nets wouldn't lose a step. Kenyon on Portland team would struggle to score and most likely finish in the same area.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You cant go wrong with a guy who gives 100% on both ends off the court & Backboards. Has a heart of steel, adds more to his offensive game every year.</div>

You don't think Kidd has the same attributes? He's second to Kmart in boards on the team. He plays with a lot of heart and his offensive game is still getting better. Last year it was evident, this year with a bum knee it was still there but not quite. Kidd is the clutch player for the Nets. I can't remember how many times I've seen him go coast to coast for a needed basket for the Nets (the 3OT game comes to mind). Or when he hit shots to win the game (last year against the Pistons).

Kidd is just so much more valuable to this team than Kenyon. It's very, very difficult to replace should a talented winning point gaurd in Kidd, whereas it's a lot easier to replace Kenyon. Kidd, unless traded for other superstars like KG, TD, Kobe, will leave a hole, evident by that the Suns haven't been able to recover. If the Nets lose Kmart, the Nets still have a chance at the playoffs for the next three seasons. I think it be bleak if it was just Kmart and RJ.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't believe so. Kidd does rely on his quickness, but he's more of a mental player. He's like Gary Payton and John Stockton in that sense, able to use his mind to make up for any athletic deficiencies with age. His passing and court vision will never fade and sometimes that's just enough. He gets his steals from reading the defenses and intercepting passes so that might dip a steal a game but it'll still be around. He'll still be a top 5 point gaurd till he is 35, in my opinion.</div>

Gary Payton & John stockton both fell of once their quickness went. Look at Payton this year, yes he Lakers system had alot to do with his producton falling off. But so did the fact that father time has caugh up to him. And Stockton clearly wasnt the same player his last few years with the Jazz.

And on thing you fail to think about is both those players are much more productive in the Half-court then kidd. If you slow kidd down on the fastbreak,he produces next to nothing runnning a teaming the half-court,well if his quickness goes then teams won have to worry about slowing him down in the fastbreak. Kidd must push the ball to be effective, and he wont be able to do that if he only has one leg.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It is, and Kenyon hasn't been able to show that he can dominate when playing against better frontlines. Dirk out plays Kenyon. KG outplays Kenyon. Tim Duncan (evident in the last finals, abeit some flut problems) outplays Kenyon. But with these guys, they're usually gonna get theres. My problem was that he had gone from a fearing power forward in the Knicks series to non-existing in the Detroit series. Credit Detroit's frontline, but do you think KG and Duncan would let the likes of Ben Wallace and Rasheed shut them down? No way. KG and TD would've gotten theirs</div>.

Well you cant go by what K-Mart did against KG or Dirk etc. two years ago because he improves fom season so much that he is a much better player the following season then he was before. K-Mart only really played those guys one game a peice this year. And K-Mart was extremely competive in both matchups. In K-Marts one real matchup with KG, he had 18pts & 12reb, KG had 18pts & 9rebs. And In his one matchup vs Dirk, K-Mart scored 29pts & 9rebs,while Dirk Nowitzki had 19pts & 10rebs. So I mean this season in his limited matchups against those guys he has had some success.

And Iam not overally focused on comparing K-Mart to the likes of the KG etc because Martin still has so much growth in his own indiviual game that, we really dont know where his potenial will stop. So its unfair to compare him to the top bigs in the league right now. Lets just mainly focus on what K-Mart has down for our own team over the past few seasons, lets focs on how he has shut down the likes of Walker & J'Oneal in the playoffs before etc.

Yes K-Mart got outplayed in games 5 & 6 in the NBA finals,last season. But you have to factor in K-mart was battling a top 50 center of all-time in Robinson & the league MVP in TD, all-alone. so I mean every low post player in the league would get outplayed & lose in that type of odds against them. And K-Mart as extremely competive in games 1 thru 4. But its only so long befre the odds catch up to you.

And you ask would TD get slowed down by the Pistons frontline? well honestly I dont know. But I Know he was slowed down by the Lakers frontline, wh isnt even close to as good defensively as the Pistons' frontline even with Karl Malone heathly.

Was K-Mart slowed down? yes, was K-Mart shut down by the Pistons frontline? No. K-Mart averaged +16ppg & 9+rpg, battling that frontline all alone with the focus of the two Wallaces' all on him. So that is pretty good effort to me. If you put Martin next to a solid big, then he desnt pick up some of those stupid fouls he picked up early in the series trying to do so such. And he would have even had a better series. After games 1-3 K-Mart was pretty productive. And that ws once he sop getting in foul trouble. So I would say the Pistons stopped K-Mart. The only person in that series that was shut down was kidd. Yes his knee played apart in that. But also the fact that the Nets were forced to play alot of half-court basketball played a big part in the lack of produtcion by kidd.




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When he's worth the 100+ Million dollar contract, make sign him to an extension. Right now he's not and that's all I care about</div>.

That isnt very realistic, especially when teams like the Nuggets, Hawks etc ar going t give him the 100 mill right now. K-Martwo0nt be the 1st player to get payed because of his upside, more than his curren production. But ifyou check his current production aint all that bad if you know what I mean. You act like we are giving Eddie Curry a 100 million.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't question Martin's work ethic, just the contract he thinks he deserves. Max contract players can carry a team, I don't think Kenyon can. RJ has shown he can, Kenyon has not.</div>

RJ showed he could carry a team because Kidd & K-mart went down to injury. If those two wouldnt have went down, we may have never known so soon that RJ could carry a team. K-mar has never been put in the situation to prove whether he can or can not carry the Nets alone. But I wll tell you that befor K-Mart went down, we was clearly the team MVP this year. And after that RJ picked up the ball.

Plus we are not or we shouldnt ask k-mart to carry the team alone. I mean he will have RJ by his side. And then we need to get a few more parts around them.I mean a great player or future great player can only go as far as his supporting cast. Duncan had a 50 greatest player by his side, 2 young emerging point guards in Speedy Claxton, Tony Parker etc. And a shooter with a heart of steel in Stephen Jackson, when he won his last chip. You seen this year when they replaced those players with sub-par parts they clearly want as good of a team. And TD struggle inthe Lakers series because his parts around him wasnt at the level they were before. So I mean your gong to have to put the parts around Martin& Jefferson, by rebiulding. And retooling.

I mean do you think its a accident that KG reaches the West Finals for the 1st time after the Wolves management surround him with players like Cassell & Spree. I mean a great player/team is only as great as the othe parts of the team besides te franchise player(s).



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well yes, but Jason Kidd never had much parts around him to make a great team. Look at his record with Phoenix:

In '99: He took a team to 53-29 secound round of the playoffs with his Clifford Robinson (18 ppg), Penny (17 ppg) and 6th man of the year Rodney Rogers (14 ppg). Gugliota was the only post player and he only played 54 games that year. That's pretty amazing</div>.

That team was extremely deep, they didnt have alot of big names but they had a bunch of solid parts. Shawn Mario was also a double digit scorer onthat team. And Rex Chapman was still on the team as well. And that tea was very vesitile, they had a bunch of inside- outside players like Cliff Robinson, Rodney Rogers. The suns management did a good job fitting players around kidd that fit his style of play even tho they werent particualry the biggest nams in the game, thats what the Nets front office would have to do with K-Mart & RJ.


I<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">n '01: His last season as a Sun he took the suns to the first round, record of 51-31, 3rd best in the west, 5 games away from being the 1st and the only player that scored more points than him was Shawn Marion (17.3 ppg). Shawn's average went up 7 points with Kidd helping his game.</div>

Once again you are talking about one of the deepest teams in the league at the time. 5 players on that team averaged in double figures, not including Penny who was close but didnt average indouble figures that year. And that team also had players on their roster who were veteran, proven shooters deep on thier bench like Vinny Del Negro & Mario Elie.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This speaks volumes for Kidd's tract record. Jason Kidd makes the Nets win games, Kenyon helps. Kidd doesn't need much talent around him to win, Kmart might need a decent point gaurd, shooting gaurd and center to do this</div>.

You think Kidd didnt have talent on those teams but he did. And he had the most important thing with those teams(especially during the regular season) is depth. The Pacers dnt have that many quote stars but they had alot of depth this year but they won 60 games. The Pistons didnt have any stars but they won the chip. Why because of depth. You can win alot of games off of the depth of a team. And that is what Kidd's Suns use to do.

Nobody is debating that right now kidd can win more game for us then K-Mart can or could. Iam talkingabout to our three years from now. Its clear that new ownership wants to rebuild, who would yo rather want to rebuild around?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">One-on-one you're right. But Pau, like Ben Wallace, is a very good team defender. He gets more blocks than Kenyon and is improving his defensive game. Not only that, he's a much better passer than Kenyon.

Randolph has the makings for a good defender. Whether he gets there or not is the question. He's relatively quick and has long arms. But if you replace Kenyon with Zach for the Nets and still have Kidd, the Nets wouldn't lose a step. Kenyon on Portland team would struggle to score and most likely finish in the same area</div>.

K-Mart is bot a good on ball & team defender. And I wouldnt say Paul Gosal is a better passer. Martin is a good passer around the basket, he isjust passing to players like JC, Aaron Williams etc around the basket, so his stats dont eflect how good of a passer he really is imo.

And Zach Randolph may be a solid defender one day, but he is far from it now. And K-mart will be an even better smater defender by that time.

And you cant be seriously about replace Zach with K-Mart. And the Nets wont lose a step. If you truely believe that then you lose all creditablity as a Nets fan imo because you clearly arent watching the games. Zach Brings none of the tuffness or intangibles that K-Mart brings even if he averages 20 & 10.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You don't think Kidd has the same attributes? He's second to Kmart in boards on the team. He plays with a lot of heart and his offensive game is still getting better. Last year it was evident, this year with a bum knee it was still there but not quite. Kidd is the clutch player for the Nets. I can't remember how many times I've seen him go coast to coast for a needed basket for the Nets (the 3OT game comes to mind). Or when he hit shots to win the game (last year against the Pistons).</div>

Nobody is questioning Kidd's heart or any of his attributes. Or at least Iam not. but I can understand why people question the fact that everytime we face a elite type of team Kidd usually shuts down. Its one thing to burry a team like the Knicks or Celtics. And its a whole different story against the likes of the Pistons, Spurs or Lakers. And if you look at a trend in the 2002 finals, 2003 finals, & this year eastern conference finals, kidd dint play the way he was surpose to play to get us over the hump to win it all. But hegot us there so I dont question it to much.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd is just so much more valuable to this team than Kenyon. It's very, very difficult to replace should a talented winning point gaurd in Kidd, whereas it's a lot easier to replace Kenyon. Kidd, unless traded for other superstars like KG, TD, Kobe, will leave a hole, evident by that the Suns haven't been able to recover. If the Nets lose Kmart, the Nets still have a chance at the playoffs for the next three seasons. I think it be bleak if it was just Kmart and RJ</div>.

Keyword is Future.. Of course it may be bleek for a season or so once Kidd leaves its called an adjustment period. But I rather go thru a few bleek season now and benefit later. Then lose Kenyon & maybe have a outside chance of beating the Pistons or Pacers in the playoffs(which will be a major longshot without Martin) the next season or 2. But have no future after that.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Gary Payton & John stockton both fell of once their quickness went. Look at Payton this year, yes he Lakers system had alot to do with his producton falling off. But so did the fact that father time has caugh up to him. And Stockton clearly wasnt the same player his last few years with the Jazz.</div>

Well obviously, but GP was still a top 5 point gaurd last season, and Stock was still one of the better point gaurds in the league. You can't deny them that. They ran up and down the court just as well as any other point gaurd in the league. Stock still had Bibby and BJax locked up in the 1st round last season. GP turned the Bucks around into a playoff team. And this season, GP before the playoffs was averaging 14 and 6 with three other star players and holding the team with Karl, Kobe, and Shaq went out. Age didn't really factor him much until Jackson started putting the lock on his game.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And on thing you fail to think about is both those players are much more productive in the Half-court then kidd. If you slow kidd down on the fastbreak,he produces next to nothing runnning a teaming the half-court,well if his quickness goes then teams won have to worry about slowing him down in the fastbreak. Kidd must push the ball to be effective, and he wont be able to do that if he only has one leg.
</div>

Difference. GP and Stock always had great scoring post players to play with. Stock and Karl. GP and Kemp/Shaq. Scoring wise, JKidd lacks but who are the post players he played with..Googs? Kmart is the closest but his post game is still lacking and can't score at will that Karl, Kemp, or Shaq could.

And Kidd on one leg is still pretty effective. He played that entire Detroit series on one leg.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Well you cant go by what K-Mart did against KG or Dirk etc. two years ago because he improves fom season so much that he is a much better player the following season then he was before. K-Mart only really played those guys one game a peice this year. And K-Mart was extremely competive in both matchups. In K-Marts one real matchup with KG, he had 18pts & 12reb, KG had 18pts & 9rebs. And In his one matchup vs Dirk, K-Mart scored 29pts & 9rebs,while Dirk Nowitzki had 19pts & 10rebs. So I mean this season in his limited matchups against those guys he has had some success.</div>

Well Dirk isn't known for his defensive abilities, though he's getting better so it's obvious that Kenyon could match his statistical output. But lets look at the most important stat, who won the game. Not the Nets. It's not Martin's fault the game was lost but if he was able to shut Dirk down, then maybe the Nets would've won. I mean, Dirk still shot 50% on 14 shots. Dirk shot less because of Antoine Walker hoisting up 19 shots (though he did hit 10 of them), and Finley shooting 7-21. If finley did shoot less and gave the ball to Dirk, who knows, Dirk might have gone for 10 more points.

In his one "real" matchup against the Wolves (I understand since Kmart sprained his ankle in the other game) he statistically matched KG, but the Wolves blew out the Nets by 13 points ending the Nets 15 game winning streak. No Net was playing well and it should have been Martin who stepped up and carried the team to atleast a respectable loss. And KG didn't seemed bothered by Martin as he shot 57% and had 1 turnover.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And Iam not overally focused on comparing K-Mart to the likes of the KG etc because Martin still has so much growth in his own indiviual game that, we really dont know where his potenial will stop. So its unfair to compare him to the top bigs in the league right now. Lets just mainly focus on what K-Mart has down for our own team over the past few seasons, lets focs on how he has shut down the likes of Walker & J'Oneal in the playoffs before etc.</div>

Well firstly, would you consider KG at the pinnacle of his game? All he would need to do is add a more consistent 3 point shot and maybe more of a mean streak to be the best, but he would be in his prime probably right now. And know what? KG's only 1 year older than Kmart. Moreover, Kmart is actually only 6 months older than Dirk. So if Kmart can get better, so can KG and Dirk, and that's scary. KG and Dirk both carry their respective teams. Kenyon does not.

And shutting down Antoine Walker is not very hard. He shuts himself down by jacking all those threes all the time. Sacramento, one of the worst defensive teams in the L shut him down in the playoffs. Jermaine O'Neal? He's not a really good offensive player, in my opinion. Yea he gets 20 ppg, but its on 44% shooting, takes too many jump shots. Don't get me wrong, JO is a max player, or closer than Martin is because he's been carrying the Pacers and when he does go down low, it's hard to stop him. In the Detroit series before he got injured when they went to JO down low, he got the basket. Sheed or Ben weren't going to stop him. But they did with Kenyon. Kmart shot 46% against the Pistons after going 65% against the Knicks. 46% is good for a guard not a power forward.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes K-Mart got outplayed in games 5 & 6 in the NBA finals,last season. But you have to factor in K-mart was battling a top 50 center of all-time in Robinson & the league MVP in TD, all-alone. so I mean every low post player in the league would get outplayed & lose in that type of odds against them. And K-Mart as extremely competive in games 1 thru 4. But its only so long befre the odds catch up to you.</div>

David Robinson was over the hill at the time. His last game was stellar but it was still something like 13 and 12. Drob had a bad back and could not keep up with Kenyon. Amare had a better playoff series against the Spurs than Kmart. But I'll give Kmart the benefit of the doubt since he had the flu.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And you ask would TD get slowed down by the Pistons frontline? well honestly I dont know. But I Know he was slowed down by the Lakers frontline, wh isnt even close to as good defensively as the Pistons' frontline even with Karl Malone heathly.</div>

Averages of 21/11/3/1/2 on 47% are pretty much dead on with his season averages. Either way, when the Spurs lost it was more on the fault of Tony Parker's incosistency. And the Lakers front line with a healthy Karl Malone is better than Detroit. The Lakers were killed by Detroit's backcourt, mainly Chauncey Billups. Rip Hamilton tired out Kobe and Billups on the pick and roll was effective because Shaq didn't rotate or step out onto GP's man.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Was K-Mart slowed down? yes, was K-Mart shut down by the Pistons frontline? No. K-Mart averaged +16ppg & 9+rpg, battling that frontline all alone with the focus of the two Wallaces' all on him. So that is pretty good effort to me. If you put Martin next to a solid big, then he desnt pick up some of those stupid fouls he picked up early in the series trying to do so such. And he would have even had a better series. After games 1-3 K-Mart was pretty productive. And that ws once he sop getting in foul trouble. So I would say the Pistons stopped K-Mart. The only person in that series that was shut down was kidd. Yes his knee played apart in that. But also the fact that the Nets were forced to play alot of half-court basketball played a big part in the lack of produtcion by kidd. </div>

Kidd is the embodiment of a pure point gaurd, getting players involved. In the half court Kidd's job is supposed to be to get the ball to someone who can score. And that option should've been Jefferson or Kmart. Jefferson played well but in the closeout games, Kenyon was a non-factor. And you have to give a lot of due for Kidd being injured in that series. If I can say Kmart's dismal perfomance in the Finals was part due to his flu, then Kidd with a really bad knee has to play a bigger roll. Kmart needs to demand the ball and go and score. 16-18 points does not cut it. He had to get 20+ for those games. And in the 3OT game, who willed the Nets to a win? It was RJ and Kidd. Kidd with the coast to coast bucket before Chauncey made his desperation three. Kidd the one who made the clutch free throws. Kidd did everything he could in that series and it should've been Kmart who shouldve stepped up for an injured Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">That isnt very realistic, especially when teams like the Nuggets, Hawks etc ar going t give him the 100 mill right now. K-Martwo0nt be the 1st player to get payed because of his upside, more than his curren production. But ifyou check his current production aint all that bad if you know what I mean. You act like we are giving Eddie Curry a 100 million.</div>

No other team can give Kmart a 100 million dollar contract. It's not allowable, the max another team can pay is 85 million, which is a bit more than sufficient for his talent. Upside? I think Kmart can get to around a Jermaine O'Neal level, but until that time, I don't see a reason to pay him JO's contract. Sign a 5 year deal and when the time is up and he's a max player type, give him his deserved extension.

Let me put this in prespective for you. Kidd last year signed a 105 million dollar contract. Kidd is a proven winner and superstar. A top 5 player, unarguably best point gaurd in the league. Took the Nets to the finals two years in a row. Why question his max when he deserved it. Kenyon's tract record isn't even half of that. Lets wait before we throw a lot of money and end up trying to trade his large contract. I'm sure if you ask almost any GM in the league if they would sign Kmart to a 100+ contract, no one will be willing to.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Plus we are not or we shouldnt ask k-mart to carry the team alone. I mean he will have RJ by his side. And then we need to get a few more parts around them.I mean a great player or future great player can only go as far as his supporting cast. Duncan had a 50 greatest player by his side, 2 young emerging point guards in Speedy Claxton, Tony Parker etc. And a shooter with a heart of steel in Stephen Jackson, when he won his last chip. You seen this year when they replaced those players with sub-par parts they clearly want as good of a team. And TD struggle inthe Lakers series because his parts around him wasnt at the level they were before. So I mean your gong to have to put the parts around Martin& Jefferson, by rebiulding. And retooling.</div>

Why not put parts around Kidd instead? Kidd is more of a star and proven player why not build around him? We wouldn't have to wait for Kidd to emerge to be a star cause he's already there. Build around Kidd and RJ. That's a better way to go. I'll stress it again, Kidd CANNOT be replaced. Martin can. Trade Martin for Nene, who has more upside, the team can make the playoffs and possibly the Finals. Trade Kidd for Parker and Manu? Team will struggle to get homecourt. Great teams have superstars or extreme depth and chemistry (evidence by these years Pistons). The Nets do not have depth and won't have chemistry if Kidd is traded.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I mean do you think its a accident that KG reaches the West Finals for the 1st time after the Wolves management surround him with players like Cassell & Spree. I mean a great player/team is only as great as the othe parts of the team besides te franchise player(s). </div>

KG is ten times the player Kenyon is so I don't think this comparison can be drawn.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody is questioning Kidd's heart or any of his attributes. Or at least Iam not. but I can understand why people question the fact that everytime we face a elite type of team Kidd usually shuts down. Its one thing to burry a team like the Knicks or Celtics. And its a whole different story against the likes of the Pistons, Spurs or Lakers. And if you look at a trend in the 2002 finals, 2003 finals, & this year eastern conference finals, kidd dint play the way he was surpose to play to get us over the hump to win it all. But hegot us there so I dont question it to much.</div>

What? Kidd averaged nearly a triple double in all those series abeit the Pistons when he was hurt. Only thing was he was the only one playing. KVH, Kittles were non-existant against the Lakers. RJ was non-existant against the Spurs, Kmart was sick. Kidd can only do so much against an elite team. No one has done it alone. And those who could be considered to have done it alone were Tim Duncan last season and Hakeem in '94. And those two are bigs. Where was our big at the team? Oh yeah, too busy being outplayed by the other bigs, going 3-29 in the last game of the Finals last season. Kidd has hit all the big shots and you know it too.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">That team was extremely deep, they didnt have alot of big names but they had a bunch of solid parts. Shawn Mario was also a double digit scorer onthat team. And Rex Chapman was still on the team as well. And that tea was very vesitile, they had a bunch of inside- outside players like Cliff Robinson, Rodney Rogers. The suns management did a good job fitting players around kidd that fit his style of play even tho they werent particualry the biggest nams in the game, thats what the Nets front office would have to do with K-Mart & RJ.</div>

They were in the west when they were dominant and Kidd carried those teams. He was swept in the second round, but it was by the Lakers and they had only lose two games the entire playoffs. And whether the team was deep or not, Kmart and RJ were better than any other of those players. You think if you replaced kidd with a mediocre point gaurd like TJ Ford and Rodney Rogers with Kmart they would've gone deeper? I think not. It was Kidd's doing and he lead that team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again you are talking about one of the deepest teams in the league at the time. 5 players on that team averaged in double figures, not including Penny who was close but didnt average indouble figures that year. And that team also had players on their roster who were veteran, proven shooters deep on thier bench like Vinny Del Negro & Mario Elie. </div>

Read what I said above. And Elie and Del Negro was aging just like Lucious and Rodney are. Nearly 5 players averaged double figured on the Nets in '01, but had better players. Where did Kidd take them? To the Finals.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You think Kidd didnt have talent on those teams but he did. And he had the most important thing with those teams(especially during the regular season) is depth. The Pacers dnt have that many quote stars but they had alot of depth this year but they won 60 games. The Pistons didnt have any stars but they won the chip. Why because of depth. You can win alot of games off of the depth of a team. And that is what Kidd's Suns use to do.</div>

Did you watch the Suns play when Kidd was on them? These players averaged double figures cause Kidd got them their shots and easy layups. Kenyon is an average passer but when he's doubled, he won't find the man like other bigs like Shaq, TD, or KG will. Kmart won't will a team to win like Kidd did. Kmart on these teams and subtract Kidd they wouldn't even make the playoffs. Depth or no depth.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">K-Mart is bot a good on ball & team defender. And I wouldnt say Paul Gosal is a better passer. Martin is a good passer around the basket, he isjust passing to players like JC, Aaron Williams etc around the basket, so his stats dont eflect how good of a passer he really is imo</div>

Pau is a better passer. Watch him play and you'll see how good of passer he is. Kenyon doesn't dazzle me with his passing. It's average. He doesn't find cutters like Pau does. Usually players have to run through screens and get open for Kenyon to pass to them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And you cant be seriously about replace Zach with K-Mart. And the Nets wont lose a step. If you truely believe that then you lose all creditablity as a Nets fan imo because you clearly arent watching the games. Zach Brings none of the tuffness or intangibles that K-Mart brings even if he averages 20 & 10. </div>

I think you're overrating how good Kmart is. The Nets defense will struggle, but in the east, gaurding big guys isn't really an issue so in my opinoin the Nets wouldn't struggle until the reach the Finals and will contend with a big that Kenyon probably wouldn't be able to shut down as evidence in previous finals. And if not that, the Nets would've still probably lost in the second round to the Pistons. Either way, Kidd with Z-Bo and RJ is just as good or close to it as Kidd with RJ and Martin.

And I don't think you're in line to question my credibility as a Nets fan when you're the one wanting to trade the best player on the Nets. The player that took the Nets to the Finals two years in a row. The player that shattered all the assists and steal records for the Franchise. The player that motivated the team to 15 consecutive wins and win 10 games in a row in the playoffs last season. The player that took the Nets to their best record ever in franchise history. This is Jason Kidd we're talking about, not Kenyon.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Keyword is Future.. Of course it may be bleek for a season or so once Kidd leaves its called an adjustment period. But I rather go thru a few bleek season now and benefit later. Then lose Kenyon & maybe have a outside chance of beating the Pistons or Pacers in the playoffs(which will be a major longshot without Martin) the next season or 2. But have no future after that.</div>

What no future? The Nets will still make the playoffs for consecutive seasons while the other Nets will be rebuilding for a long time. If you ask me, I rather have playoffs for the next three or four seasons, let Kidd retire and play a big part in the free agent market in trying to get good players and see how that goes. I rather see that than seeing Kmart and RJ struggle because they don't have a point gaurd to get them the ball, not make the playoffs and every year. Who knows if the right parts will come? Kidd + RJ is a sure thing. Kmart + RJ and waiting for the parts to come is a big risk.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well obviously, but GP was still a top 5 point gaurd last season, and Stock was still one of the better point gaurds in the league. You can't deny them that. They ran up and down the court just as well as any other point gaurd in the league. Stock still had Bibby and BJax locked up in the 1st round last season. GP turned the Bucks around into a playoff team. And this season, GP before the playoffs was averaging 14 and 6 with three other star players and holding the team with Karl, Kobe, and Shaq went out. Age didn't really factor him much until Jackson started putting the lock on his game</div>.

Gary Payton was solid but he was not a top 5 point guard last year. if you are basing it on actual production instead of name.

And he didnt turn the Bucks into a playoff team in 2002-2003, He got trade for at the trade deadline in the middle feb, & the Bucks were basically a .500 team for the entire 1st half of the season before he came. And they made the playoffs a game above .500. Anybody that truely watched the Bucks lastyear knows Sam Cassell was their team MVP, becaus he produced from the start of the season util the end despite all those injuries & player changes they went thru the season. He kept them at .500 & in the playoff race.

John Stockton is a pick & roll point guard, who is one ofthe most effiecent shooters at the PG spot. So John Stockton as his career was on the decline was able to find aways to produce that Kidd wont be able to do. Because #1) He isnt a pick & Roll pg. How many times do you see the Nets running the Pick & Roll in the half-court? Never. The Pick & Roll produces so many easy opportinuties to score, that if a player is past his prime, he still produce by running tis play. #2)Kidd cant shoot, I mean lets be realistic, yo can be much more productive in this league over along peroid of time even if your speed drops off,if you can shoot the basketball. Kidd cant do that Iam sorry.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Difference. GP and Stock always had great scoring post players to play with. Stock and Karl. GP and Kemp/Shaq. Scoring wise, JKidd lacks but who are the post players he played with..Googs? Kmart is the closest but his post game is still lacking and can't score at will that Karl, Kemp, or Shaq could</div>.

Hmm...GP had kemp your right but once kemp left. He still produe in the half-court because he was a half-court player. He was able to post up & run pick & rolls. And things of that nature. Kidd's post guard game, scoring wise isnt that great, he cant run pick & roll( he had a 20 & 10 player with a good mid-range shot in Mcdyess)yet he still couldnt score or produce in the half-court really. He had to get out in the open court to produce his # in PHX as well.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Kidd on one leg is still pretty effective. He played that entire Detroit series on one leg</div>.

Yes, & we could all tell he was playing on one leg. And he looked horrible. He couldntget out in the open court the way he needed too. He couldnt make a jumpshot in he half-court when he needed too. So why would we want to rebuild around a kidd who with one leg cant get out in the open court. And for the most part would be a half-court player.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well Dirk isn't known for his defensive abilities, though he's getting better so it's obvious that Kenyon could match his statistical output. But lets look at the most important stat, who won the game. Not the Nets.</div>

Maybe the Nets lost because the Mavs, T-Wolves etc. were as good, no more like better than the Nets were. I suggest you check the # of the players around Dirk & then check the # for the players around K-mart. And you will get your reasonfor why the Nets lost.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's not Martin's fault the game was lost but if he was able to shut Dirk down, then maybe the Nets would've won. I mean, Dirk still shot 50% on 14 shots. Dirk shot less because of Antoine Walker hoisting up 19 shots (though he did hit 10 of them), and Finley shooting 7-21. If finley did shoot less and gave the ball to Dirk, who knows, Dirk might have gone for 10 more points</div>.

This is very unrealistic, How can you expect K-Mart to shut down Dirk, who is oneof the top players at the postion. All K-Mart can do is try to contain Dirk & try to match his production. And thats exactly what Martin did, & he was +10 in the scoring column against Dirk. So like I said you have to look at the other Nets parts to see why they lost the game. Martin did more than his part.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In his one "real" matchup against the Wolves (I understand since Kmart sprained his ankle in the other game) he statistically matched KG, but the Wolves blew out the Nets by 13 points ending the Nets 15 game winning streak. No Net was playing well and it should have been Martin who stepped up and carried the team to atleast a respectable loss. And KG didn't seemed bothered by Martin as he shot 57% and had 1 turnover.</div>

Once again, All K-Mart can do is match KG production, which he did in that game. If you remember correctly the game was a close low scoring game until the 4th quarter, until Troy Hudson lit Jason Kidd up from the outside. And stretch he game open on a 2 or 3 minute period. He had to have had about 19pts alne in the 4th with Kidd guarding him, so thats the real reason the Nets lost,Troy Hudson, not KG.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well firstly, would you consider KG at the pinnacle of his game? All he would need to do is add a more consistent 3 point shot and maybe more of a mean streak to be the best, but he would be in his prime probably right now. And know what? KG's only 1 year older than Kmart. Moreover, Kmart is actually only 6 months older than Dirk. So if Kmart can get better, so can KG and Dirk, and that's scary. KG and Dirk both carry their respective teams. Kenyon does not.</div>

1st off, kG has spent his entire NBA career under the wing of Kevin MCHale, who took him in since he was a rookie. And worked on helping KG add new things to his offensive game every year. And seeing that Kevin Mchale is agruebly one of the best forwards of all-time as far as foot work & post moves go. I would say KG had the very best teacher possible dont you think.

Who has K-mart had to teach & work with him? Nobody. Everything K-Mart has added to his game since coming from University of Cinny, he has learned on his own. So its going to take Martin sometime for his entire game to become complete as he learn more & more. Rome was not built in a day.

Dirk carry a team hmm... I dont know about that. Its easy to carry a team when it has 3 or 4 all-star type players other than you.

And KG, where did he take the wolves before Cassell & Spree to exit in the 1st round. Like I said before a player is only as good the parts around him. No Sprewell or Cassell= No western Conf. finals for the Wolves ths year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And shutting down Antoine Walker is not very hard. He shuts himself down by jacking all those threes all the time. Sacramento, one of the worst defensive teams in the L shut him down in the playoffs.</div>

Well Walker is still an all-star caliber player. And K-Mart locked him down better then any other player. And clearly got in his head and effect Walkes production, which is a credit to k-mart defense.

Waker got shut down by Sacro because he was hardy on the floor. Evenbefore the playoffs started Jamieson, had clearly started to take over Walkers minutes.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Jermaine O'Neal? He's not a really good offensive player, in my opinion. Yea he gets 20 ppg, but its on 44% shooting, takes too many jump shots. Don't get me wrong, JO is a max player, or closer than Martin is because he's been carrying the Pacers and when he does go down low, it's hard to stop him.</div>

Hey say what you want about O'neal but he was an all-nba 2nd teamer last year. And a MVP candidate. And K-Mart out plays him just about everytime they link up in a battle. Which once again is a credit to K-mart defense & improvements over the years.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In the Detroit series before he got injured when they went to JO down low, he got the basket. Sheed or Ben weren't going to stop him. But they did with Kenyon. Kmart shot 46% against the Pistons after going 65% against the Knicks. 46% is good for a guard not a power forward.</div>

Like I said before it took K-Mart a few games to figure out the Pistons frontline. But once he did he was pretty productive.

And we dont really know what Oneal would have done against the Pistons frontline for an entire series. Because he had an injury to fall back on.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">David Robinson was over the hill at the time. His last game was stellar but it was still something like 13 and 12. Drob had a bad back and could not keep up with Kenyon. Amare had a better playoff series against the Spurs than Kmart. But I'll give Kmart the benefit of the doubt since he had the flu. </div>

David Robinson was still a great defensive player & weakside shotblocker. And that what they did alll series let TD guard K-Mart & then come almost everytime with weakside help from Robinson. Put a legit Center next to K-Mar that could keep Robinson from helping so much. And we may have had a different series.

No Amare didnt player better then K-Mart against that fronline of Robinson & Duncan. K-Mart averaged almost 15 and exactly 10rebs per game. Amare averaged 14 & less than 8 rebs in his series.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Averages of 21/11/3/1/2 on 47% are pretty much dead on with his season averages. Either way, when the Spurs lost it was more on the fault of Tony Parker's incosistency. And the Lakers front line with a healthy Karl Malone is better than Detroit. The Lakers were killed by Detroit's backcourt, mainly Chauncey Billups. Rip Hamilton tired out Kobe and Billups on the pick and roll was effective because Shaq didn't rotate or step out onto GP's man.</div>

Lakers frontline is not better than the Pistons frontline defensively. Karl Malone is the only laker big that plays defense. Shaq doesnt, And Slava couldnt guard me if I tried to post him up lol. Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace & Elden Campbell are all good on the ball defenders.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd is the embodiment of a pure point gaurd, getting players involved. In the half court Kidd's job is supposed to be to get the ball to someone who can score. And that option should've been Jefferson or Kmart. </div>

Yes his main job is to get others involved inthe half-court but he still got to make open jumpshot injured or not. Kidd didnt make any perimeter shots at al in the seres, which put K-Mart even at a more disadvantage because all the Piston defense had to do was si in his lap. And make it har for him to score dwn low because they didnt even have to guard the perimeter all series becaust the perimeter payers made no jumpshots.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Jefferson played well but in the closeout games, Kenyon was a non-factor. And you have to give a lot of due for Kidd being injured in that series. If I can say Kmart's dismal perfomance in the Finals was part due to his flu, then Kidd with a really bad knee has to play a bigger roll. Kmart needs to demand the ball and go and score. 16-18 points does not cut it. He had to get 20+ for those games. And in the 3OT game, who willed the Nets to a win? It was RJ and Kidd. Kidd with the coast to coast bucket before Chauncey made his desperation three. Kidd the one who made the clutch free throws. Kidd did everything he could in that series and it should've been Kmart who shouldve stepped up for an injured Kidd</div>

Once again you are being unrealistic imo. How do you expect K-Mart to carry the team against the best defensive frontline in basketball with no help what so ever on the Nets frontline.

And in the overtime game who kept choking the game away to keep the Pistons in the game? RJ & Kidd. How many clutch fee throw did thos guys miss to keep the pistons in the game? Was it not kidd who had back to back turnovers to help the game go to a 3rd oT? If BrainScalibrine wouldnt have saved us. All the New York Newspapers would have been talking about how Kidd & RJ messed up in those 3ot periods.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No other team can give Kmart a 100 million dollar contract. It's not allowable, the max another team can pay is 85 million, which is a bit more than sufficient for his talent. Upside? I think Kmart can get to around a Jermaine O'Neal level, but until that time, I don't see a reason to pay him JO's contract. Sign a 5 year deal and when the time is up and he's a max player type, give him his deserved extension. </div>

Well what ever another team offers him the Nets will have to match. Its simple mathmatics for me.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let me put this in prespective for you. Kidd last year signed a 105 million dollar contract. Kidd is a proven winner and superstar. A top 5 player, unarguably best point gaurd in the league. Took the Nets to the finals two years in a row. Why question his max when he deserved it. Kenyon's tract record isn't even half of that. Lets wait before we throw a lot of money and end up trying to trade his large contract. I'm sure if you ask almost any GM in the league if they would sign Kmart to a 100+ contract, no one will be willing to.</div>

If that is the case. Then why are so many GM's calling the Nets about a sign & trade deal for Martin.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why not put parts around Kidd instead? Kidd is more of a star and proven player why not build around him? We wouldn't have to wait for Kidd to emerge to be a star cause he's already there. Build around Kidd and RJ. That's a better way to go. I'll stress it again, Kidd CANNOT be replaced. Martin can. Trade Martin for Nene, who has more upside, the team can make the playoffs and possibly the Finals. Trade Kidd for Parker and Manu? Team will struggle to get homecourt. Great teams have superstars or extreme depth and chemistry (evidence by these years Pistons). The Nets do not have depth and won't have chemistry if Kidd is traded.</div>

You dont rebuild around a aging point guard, who's knees are starting to go south on him. And clearly wont be the same player that he was 2 years ago, three years from now. Its that simple not a hard concept to follow.

Now Nene has more upside then K-Mart. You are really bugging right now, if Denver was thinking that they wouldnt make or even be calling the Nets to make the trade.

If you ask some spurs fans I bet you they would say Parker & Manu maybe to much for Kidd, especially since the Spurs run a pick & roll system, which kidd wont be as effective in.

If we trade kidd then we would get alot of parts in return, if we make the proper deal, which will create depth. You act like Iam saying trade kidd for Kevin Ollie & a couple of thank you cards from the GM that played Rob Thorn for a sucker.

No, any deal tat includes Kidd will clearly have to included parts that can help us grow & rebuild.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">KG is ten times the player Kenyon is so I don't think this comparison can be drawn</div>

KG is clearly better player than K-Mart but 10 times better is a bit of an extra to say the least.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What? Kidd averaged nearly a triple double in all those series abeit the Pistons when he was hurt. Only thing was he was the only one playing. KVH, Kittles were non-existant against the Lakers. RJ was non-existant against the Spurs, Kmart was sick. Kidd can only do so much against an elite team. No one has done it alone.</div>

Nobody saying that Kidd had to do it alone against those teams but if you think Kidd played at a superstar(top 5 level) in any of those series. Then you dont know what top 5 superstar is Iam sorry.

He averaged 19 & 8 in the series last year against the spurs, which if you didnt watch the series you would think was great. But trut betold he really only played well in 2 games where he scored like 35pts in each. Other than that he got outplayed by Speedy Claxton & Tony Parker. He couldnt guard them to save his life, the only reason we slowed down Parker was because we finally put Kittles on him. And his lenght contained Parker for the rest of the series. And you talk about K-Marts bad shooting game didnt kidd shoot in the mid-30% era for the entire series. And he took way to many sots in that series when he started taking his battle with Parker serious. Kidd have had to average about 20 shots per game in that series. That isnt Kidd's game.

And once again in the Lakers series, his stats look good but they dont tell you how many missed shots he had down the stretch of those games. And alll four of those games were close in or going into the 4th quarter, But Kidd our leader didnt make pays to get us over the hump to wn at least 1 game. I dontharp on the Lakers series to much becuase we were cleary out classed & out matched in that series. But truth be told Martinwas our best offensive weapon in that series.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And those who could be considered to have done it alone were Tim Duncan last season and Hakeem in '94. And those two are bigs. Where was our big at the team? Oh yeah, too busy being outplayed by the other bigs, going 3-29 in the last game of the Finals last season. Kidd has hit all the big shots and you know it too</div>.

Duncan did it alone last year, what playoffs were you watching. I seen Tony Parker, Speedy Claxton, Stephen Jackson, David Robinson all out their making big plays to give help to Duncan, thats called a team.

And Hakeem in 94', you must have forgot the Rockets had Cassell, Horry, Elie, Mad Max all out their making big clutch shot after clutch shot. Not to mention Otis Thrope & Kenny Smith were both former all-star level players.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They were in the west when they were dominant and Kidd carried those teams. He was swept in the second round, but it was by the Lakers and they had only lose two games the entire playoffs. And whether the team was deep or not, Kmart and RJ were better than any other of those players. You think if you replaced kidd with a mediocre point gaurd like TJ Ford and Rodney Rogers with Kmart they would've gone deeper? I think not. It was Kidd's doing and he lead that team.</div>

There is alot of if, whethers & buts in that statement. Fact of the matter is those teams were some ofthe deepest most vesitile teams in the league. Deep teams win games what more can I say.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Read what I said above. And Elie and Del Negro was aging just like Lucious and Rodney are. Nearly 5 players averaged double figured on the Nets in '01, but had better players. Where did Kidd take them? To the Finals. </div>

Elie & Del Negro were aging but they still had big shot making ablity something this Nets team lacks. And yes I give kidd alts of credit for taking us to the Finals but you can not deny the fact the the east was water down, both years he did it. Their was really no east team that was capable of knocking us off. This year was the 1st real year, where you could say that the Nets would have really had to work to get back to the Finals facig teams who were capable of winning not only the east but the entire championship(Pistons & Pacers)

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Did you watch the Suns play when Kidd was on them? These players averaged double figures cause Kidd got them their shots and easy layups</div>

Yes I watched them as much as possible in the few television games regular seaon, playoffs etc. They didnt have league Pass back then so me leaving on the east coast I could see so much of the Suns back then on cable & channel 4.

But I do know one thing forsure 3 out of 5, of the other best players on those teams were all-stars before they ever played with kidd. So they were proven. Cliff Robinson, Penny Hardaway, Googs were all 20+ point scorer before they ever payed with kidd. And Rodney Rogers, was good for like 10-15 pts during his clipper days before he even played with kidd as well.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kenyon is an average passer but when he's doubled, he won't find the man like other bigs like Shaq, TD, or KG will. Kmart won't will a team to win like Kidd did. Kmart on these teams and subtract Kidd they wouldn't even make the playoffs. Depth or no depth.</div>

Hmm... does k-mart have half-the options thse otherbigs have to pass the ball too?No. K-Mart is surrounded by a bunch of inconsstent shooters. And bigman who cant produce offensively.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Pau is a better passer. Watch him play and you'll see how good of passer he is. Kenyon doesn't dazzle me with his passing. It's average. He doesn't find cutters like Pau does. Usually players have to run through screens and get open for Kenyon to pass to them</div>.

Of course Pau will appear to be a better passer because he has more scoring & shooting option then Martin does. So when he passes the ball his shooters make the shots & his bigmen next to him finish plays in traffic. So it just appears that Gasol is a better passer.

If Pau Gasol is such a better passer, why is it that over the past 3 season they have had the same assist average basically with Gasol having te more productive shooters & scoring options.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think you're overrating how good Kmart is. The Nets defense will struggle, but in the east, gaurding big guys isn't really an issue so in my opinoin the Nets wouldn't struggle until the reach the Finals and will contend with a big that Kenyon probably wouldn't be able to shut down as evidence in previous finals. And if not that, the Nets would've still probably lost in the second round to the Pistons. Either way, Kidd with Z-Bo and RJ is just as good or close to it as Kidd with RJ and Martin</div>

Iam not overrating, you are underatting K-Mart becas you want to keep kidd. So you are trying to make yourself believe we would be the same team with K-mart, but we clearly lose heart ,effort, tuffness, and a new found leadership,if w lose K-Mart. Try to convince yourself were not if you want.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And I don't think you're in line to question my credibility as a Nets fan when you're the one wanting to trade the best player on the Nets. The player that took the Nets to the Finals two years in a row. The player that shattered all the assists and steal records for the Franchise. The player that motivated the team to 15 consecutive wins and win 10 games in a row in the playoffs last season. The player that took the Nets to their best record ever in franchise history. This is Jason Kidd we're talking about, not Kenyon.</div>

Iam not questioning your crediablity as a Nets fan, but its clear to me that your loyality toward Kidd comes before the better of the future of the Nets.

Iam going to be a Nets fan whether Martin or Kidd goes. When my favorite Net/player of all-time Sam Cassell got traded at the trade deadline of the 99' season, I ws extremely dissapointed. And almost stop watching the Nets Almost, better then I had to step back & put thngs in to full context. That the Nets were trying to make a move that would at the time many people felt would better the franchise(it turns out that deal later led to the Kidd deal so it actually did benefit the franchise), but at the time I didnt know why the Nets wanted to go in the direction of Steph, who clearly had selfish tendancy shown in Minny. and Cassell was coming off an all-star type of season where the Nets made the playoffs. But like I said I had to step back. And look at the complete situation.

Steph was the young player, with all the upside in the world. And Cassell was the older player who had been battling a back injury from the season before. So the reasoning behind the move became more. And more clear to me. And I thinkyou should step back & look at the clear reasoning behind trading Kidd instead of K-Mart. Iam not asking you to like the idea of trading kidd,just to understand it.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What no future? The Nets will still make the playoffs for consecutive seasons while the other Nets will be rebuilding for a long time. If you ask me, I rather have playoffs for the next three or four seasons, let Kidd retire and play a big part in the free agent market in trying to get good players and see how that goes. I rather see that than seeing Kmart and RJ struggle because they don't have a point gaurd to get them the ball, not make the playoffs and every year. Who knows if the right parts will come? Kidd + RJ is a sure thing. Kmart + RJ and waiting for the parts to come is a big risk.</div>

Every rebuilding period is a risk, no matter what but when you have keep rebuilding parts like RJ & K-Mart. And potenial great trading bait in kidd then its a risk, I am willing to take.

Rebuilding around Martin & Rj the Nets have a good chance of gaining 3 or 4 years from now. Thats all it is for me, not a distruction of Kidd or a down grade of kidd. Just the franchise moving in a new & different direction thats all.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Gary Payton was solid but he was not a top 5 point guard last year. if you are basing it on actual production instead of name.

And he didnt turn the Bucks into a playoff team in 2002-2003, He got trade for at the trade deadline in the middle feb, & the Bucks were basically a .500 team for the entire 1st half of the season before he came. And they made the playoffs a game above .500. Anybody that truely watched the Bucks lastyear knows Sam Cassell was their team MVP, becaus he produced from the start of the season util the end despite all those injuries & player changes they went thru the season. He kept them at .500 & in the playoff race. </div>

It was Gary Payton making the big shots for the Bucks last year. It was GP that was running the offense while Sam played off gaurd. And it was GP gaurding Sam's man during games. GP was the man for the Bucks last year. He was the Walt Fraizer while Sam was Earl Monroe.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">John Stockton is a pick & roll point guard, who is one ofthe most effiecent shooters at the PG spot. So John Stockton as his career was on the decline was able to find aways to produce that Kidd wont be able to do. Because #1) He isnt a pick & Roll pg. How many times do you see the Nets running the Pick & Roll in the half-court? Never. The Pick & Roll produces so many easy opportinuties to score, that if a player is past his prime, he still produce by running tis play. #2)Kidd cant shoot, I mean lets be realistic, yo can be much more productive in this league over along peroid of time even if your speed drops off,if you can shoot the basketball. Kidd cant do that Iam sorry. </div>

Agreed. But Kidd's deficiency in the half-court is not his fault alone. No one on the team can operate in the half court. So what does Kidd do? He runs. I see a 34 year old Gary Payton running down the court with Kobe. I saw a 40 year old John Stockton out hussling every other player on his opponents team. I saw a 40 year old Michael Jordan playing harder than his young team. Why does these players succeed? Cause their hearts are stronger and don't fade with age. Kidd's heart wont and we both agreed on that. Perhaps he won't be quick as he used to, but its not like he can't run.

So say they trade Kidd like you propose. Who is going to run the fast break as effectively? Martin obviously doesn't have enough low post moves to score and now he has no one giving him easy dunks or layups. His scoring will suffer without Kidd. I'm unconvinced that he's just as good without Kidd than Jefferson is. I think Jefferson has become independent of Kidd will Martin is still dependent.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, & we could all tell he was playing on one leg. And he looked horrible. He couldntget out in the open court the way he needed too. He couldnt make a jumpshot in he half-court when he needed too. So why would we want to rebuild around a kidd who with one leg cant get out in the open court. And for the most part would be a half-court player. </div>

When a player is ailing, the next superstar is supposed to pick up his game. When Jordan was faultering he had Scottie to carry the team. When Shaq can't get the ball, it was usually Kobe who penetrated and got Shaq the easy dunk. Where was Kidd's supposed next superstar? It obviously wasn't Kenyon. Kmart still to me has not proven that he is on a superstar level. He never picks up slack. He just gets his averages and settles for that.

And it seems that all you care about is scoring. Scoring is the most important part of the game, yes, but there are players in this league that can win without scoring. Ben Wallace comes into mind. Rodman comes into mind. Mutombo comes to mind. Bob Cousy comes into mind. And finally Jason Kidd comes to mind. IF all you care about is scoring than the Nets should just trade Kidd for Glenn Robinson or Stackhouse.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting HenacyMaybe the Nets lost because the Mavs, T-Wolves etc. were as good, no more like better than the Nets were. I suggest you check the # of the players around Dirk & then check the # for the players around K-mart. And you will get your reasonfor why the Nets lost.[/quote:</div><div class="quote_post">

Are you serious? So you're telling me that the Nets lost cause they weren't good enough? To me, the Nets can beat any team in the league. It's unacceptable to say that Kenyon did not have enough players around him. That's a cop-out excuse to me. If you really really want to win, then you'll win. Look at the Atlanta Hawks. They beat the Timberwolves and Dallas Mavericks convincingly this year. Don't tell me about not having enough parts.

[quote name='Henacy']This is very unrealistic, How can you expect K-Mart to shut down Dirk, who is oneof the top players at the postion. All K-Mart can do is try to contain Dirk & try to match his production. And thats exactly what Martin did, & he was +10 in the scoring column against Dirk. So like I said you have to look at the other Nets parts to see why they lost the game. Martin did more than his part. </div>

In the end, it's who got the win. Dirk was very efficient that game scoring 50%. Where was Kenyon's defense? If Dirk took more shots he wouldve matched Kenyon's performance. And once again you start this cop-excuse for not having parts.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again, All K-Mart can do is match KG production, which he did in that game. If you remember correctly the game was a close low scoring game until the 4th quarter, until Troy Hudson lit Jason Kidd up from the outside. And stretch he game open on a 2 or 3 minute period. He had to have had about 19pts alne in the 4th with Kidd guarding him, so thats the real reason the Nets lost,Troy Hudson, not KG.
</div>

From the last two statements it seems that you think that Kenyon won't be as good as Dirk or KG so all he can do is match them. That's pathetic. To beat these teams you have to beat these players. Kmart if he wants to be a max player has to outplay these players and shut them down. You think Tim Duncan only says "if I can match Dirk and KG, then we might win."?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">1st off, kG has spent his entire NBA career under the wing of Kevin MCHale, who took him in since he was a rookie. And worked on helping KG add new things to his offensive game every year. And seeing that Kevin Mchale is agruebly one of the best forwards of all-time as far as foot work & post moves go. I would say KG had the very best teacher possible dont you think.

Who has K-mart had to teach & work with him? Nobody. Everything K-Mart has added to his game since coming from University of Cinny, he has learned on his own. So its going to take Martin sometime for his entire game to become complete as he learn more & more. Rome was not built in a day.</div>

Ok, and who did Dirk and Tim Duncan learn from? Duncan probably got some tips from David Robinson but he already came into the league as a 20-10 player. And how do you know Kenyon works alone? He can hire trainers with his own money. Trainers like Tim Grover. He can go play games with other stars in the league over the summer. He can ask Zo to help him out. It's not like Kmart has no one to learn from. It's his responsibility to.

It's not all credited to Kevin McHale for KG's development. It's KG willingness to become better. I'm not saying Kenyon doesn't want to become better and isn't by any means. I'm arguing that till he becomes a top-tier powerforward in the league I don't think he should be paid max money.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Dirk carry a team hmm... I dont know about that. Its easy to carry a team when it has 3 or 4 all-star type players other than you. </div>

I think you just slapped Kidd and RJ in the face with that statement. Kidd and RJ are all-star type players in the league, perhaps even more. And Dirk does carry the Mavs. In the closeout game against Sacramento this year, Dirk came to play. He poured his heart out against the Kings and it was not enough.

If Dirk doesn't carry the Mavs, then Kmart doesn't carry the Nets. As I said before, Kmart is half a year older than Dirk and he's not putting the same output. Kmart better change alot this summer if he's going to reach Dirk's level.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Well Walker is still an all-star caliber player. And K-Mart locked him down better then any other player. And clearly got in his head and effect Walkes production, which is a credit to k-mart defense.</div>

I agree, Kmart's defense is 80-90 percent the reason Walker was having a trouble. I don't doubt Kmart's defense against moderate power forwards/small forwards. Usually Kmart owns them, I'm talking about the upper echelon forwards where Kenyon is non-existant. If he wants to pe paid like those forwards he better play like them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey say what you want about O'neal but he was an all-nba 2nd teamer last year. And a MVP candidate. And K-Mart out plays him just about everytime they link up in a battle. Which once again is a credit to K-mart defense & improvements over the years. </div>

A 20 pt on 9-16 shooting, 10 rebound, 2 stl, 2 blks and most importantly, the win say otherwise to Kmart loking JO down. You might, and probably will come back with the 23 on 10-20, 13 game that Kmart had and the Nets won...But look closer at that box sheet....Jason Kidd, 16, 10, 14, 2stls...A triple double. 14 assists, I wonder how many of them were to Kmart. Maybe you see the trend that I do..When Kidd has a good game, Kmart has good game. And when Kidd has a good game, the Nets win. When Kmart has a good game, do the Nets win? Obviously not in evidence of the Mavs game you point out.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said before it took K-Mart a few games to figure out the Pistons frontline. But once he did he was pretty productive. </div>

Obviously not productive enough to get pick up stupid superflous fouls and be in foul trouble each game. He average nearly 5 fouls each game.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">David Robinson was still a great defensive player & weakside shotblocker. And that what they did alll series let TD guard K-Mart & then come almost everytime with weakside help from Robinson. Put a legit Center next to K-Mar that could keep Robinson from helping so much. And we may have had a different series.</div>

Drobb is one my top five favorite players of all time. Maybe even top 3, but he clearly wasn't even a shadow of what he used to be. He was more servicible than Collins, I'll give you that. But he was playing barely 26 mpg and had a bad back. And in that series it was not Kmart that was doing the best on Timmy. It was Deke. Deke did a better job on Duncan than Kmart did. But I'll credit Kmart's flu for a reason for that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">No Amare didnt player better then K-Mart against that fronline of Robinson & Duncan. K-Mart averaged almost 15 and exactly 10rebs per game. Amare averaged 14 & less than 8 rebs in his series. </div>

Um, yes? Amare didn't shoot Antoine Walker percentages. Kmart went like 3-29 in the final game. If you shoot that many shots, its not hard to get around 15 ppg.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Lakers frontline is not better than the Pistons frontline defensively. Karl Malone is the only laker big that plays defense. Shaq doesnt, And Slava couldnt guard me if I tried to post him up lol. Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace & Elden Campbell are all good on the ball defenders.</div>

Shaq doesn't play good pick and roll deffense but he's a very good man defender. He gaurds Tim Duncan very well. Tim Duncan needed a desperation shot from the top of the key to get ahead in Game 5 this year. If it was Kmart he would've gotten him on the bottom of the box and shot a fadeaway or something.

Shaq's help defense is very good too. He's an intimidator. He fouls people hard that try to dunk on him. People don't bring it to the lane cause they're scared of Shaq. Thats part of defense too. It changes peoples game.

And the Pistons frontline just consists of a lot of bigs so they can body anyone up on the west. Shaq didn't have trouble against the frontline. He did better on them than the Spurs. The Pistons executed what every other team wants to do with the Lakers, let Shaq get his while everyone else gets nothing. Kobe was contained, the bench was stopped, GP was stopped.

If the Nets played against the Pistons better than anyteam, but if they had played against the Lakers they probably wouldn't have swept them as easily as the Pistons. I still believe they'd win, but not as easily as the Pistons did.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes his main job is to get others involved inthe half-court but he still got to make open jumpshot injured or not. Kidd didnt make any perimeter shots at al in the seres, which put K-Mart even at a more disadvantage because all the Piston defense had to do was si in his lap. And make it har for him to score dwn low because they didnt even have to guard the perimeter all series becaust the perimeter payers made no jumpshots</div>

Do you play basketball? Do you know how hard it is to make a jumpshot on one knee? Do you exactly understand how much pain Kidd must have been suffering through those games? Kidd played through injuries a lot, I don't see Kenyon doing much of that. Even Zo criticized Kmart for sitting out just cause of a sprained ankle.

And this goes back to the whole Kmart needing to step up. Kidd stepped up in the 3OT against the Pistons with Kmart fouled out. Now Kidd was in trouble and needed another player to step up. Kmart just settled for a mediocre game.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again you are being unrealistic imo. How do you expect K-Mart to carry the team against the best defensive frontline in basketball with no help what so ever on the Nets frontline. </div>

So Kmart should just cut his losses and settle? I don't expect him to win games, I expect him to step up. 16 and 9 isn't stepping up. I didn't see any fire in his game. I didn't see him play his game. What I saw was a guy who wants a max contract settling for mediocre games and getting alot of stupid fouls.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And in the overtime game who kept choking the game away to keep the Pistons in the game? RJ & Kidd. How many clutch fee throw did thos guys miss to keep the pistons in the game? Was it not kidd who had back to back turnovers to help the game go to a 3rd oT? If BrainScalibrine wouldnt have saved us. All the New York Newspapers would have been talking about how Kidd & RJ messed up in those 3ot periods. </div>

Was it not Kidd who gave the layup to get the team ahead 2 points? Was it not RJ who found Scalabrine in the corner for the open 3? Was it not Kidd who drove and then kicked it out to Brian for an open 3? Brian didn't create these shots on his own. You make mistakes but you make up for them and Kidd and RJ did.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Well what ever another team offers him the Nets will have to match. Its simple mathmatics for me</div>

Agreed, but you still don't trade Kidd after that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">If that is the case. Then why are so many GM's calling the Nets about a sign & trade deal for Martin. </div>

You don't know how much the sign and trade deals are. They could be for 103 million, they could be for 85. All you could do is be realistic, and I tend to think its not 100+ and think that's legit.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You dont rebuild around a aging point guard, who's knees are starting to go south on him. And clearly wont be the same player that he was 2 years ago, three years from now. Its that simple not a hard concept to follow.</div>

Who's talking about rebuilding? Are you ready to call quits on this Nets squad. I'm talking about building. Not REbuilding. As throwback said awhile ago, they were 2 games away from being NBA champs. Find the missing piece.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Now Nene has more upside then K-Mart. You are really bugging right now, if Denver was thinking that they wouldnt make or even be calling the Nets to make the trade.</div>

Nene does. He's the same build as Kevin Garnett but stronger. He's 5 years younger, 22 years old getting 12 and 6 and shoots a better percentage and takes less shots. He has a lot of room to get better. Defensively they're not far apart.

There might and might not be any credibility for the Nets-Denver trade. I posted it to get comments. I also read about how Kiki is not willing to pay what Kmart wants and that Nene is already there.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">If you ask some spurs fans I bet you they would say Parker & Manu maybe to much for Kidd, especially since the Spurs run a pick & roll system, which kidd wont be as effective in.</div>

Pick and roll isn't just a pick then a jumpshot from Kidd. There's the roll part to of a Tim Duncan, Rasho, or Malik Rose. Kidd's passing can hit on the roll or it can create space for another open man.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">If we trade kidd then we would get alot of parts in return, if we make the proper deal, which will create depth. You act like Iam saying trade kidd for Kevin Ollie & a couple of thank you cards from the GM that played Rob Thorn for a sucker. </div>

I don't think that. I think you don't understand how important Kidd is to this team. He made this offense works. If we scrap him we need an entire new offense. One we're not sure if Kenyon and RJ can thrive in.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">KG is clearly better player than K-Mart but 10 times better is a bit of an extra to say the least.</div>

Name one thing that Kmart can do better than KG? Not scoring. Definitely not passing. Not blocking shots. Not handling the ball KG's atleast Kmart's equal on defense if not better. KG's a better leader. He puts the team on his back. I think he's around 10 times better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">He averaged 19 & 8 in the series last year against the spurs, which if you didnt watch the series you would think was great. But trut betold he really only played well in 2 games where he scored like 35pts in each. Other than that he got outplayed by Speedy Claxton & Tony Parker. </div>

It's not like Kmart never got outplayed. Tim Duncan always was steps ahead of him. Even Malik Rose got the best of him at times.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">He couldnt guard them to save his life, the only reason we slowed down Parker was because we finally put Kittles on him. </div>

Who's being unrealistic? Kittles needed to pull his weight too. Kidd was already doing so much in everything else that you're asking him to gaurd a very fast player as well as run the offense, get everyone involved and spark the team? No one did that. Even MJ didn't. Who was gaurding the best player on the other team most of the time? It was Scottie. Kobe doesn't do that. Other than Rip Hamilton, I've never seen him gaurd the best swingman on the other team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And you talk about K-Marts bad shooting game didnt kidd shoot in the mid-30% era for the entire series. And he took way to many sots in that series when he started taking his battle with Parker serious. Kidd have had to average about 20 shots per game in that series. That isnt Kidd's game. </div>

I agree. Why is Kidd taking all these shots? Partially like you mentioned he wanted to show Parker up, but if you watched Kmart and RJ they just watched Kidd do all this. They weren't cutting. Kmart wasn't battling for position down low. They were standing. So all Kidd was do was shoot.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And once again in the Lakers series, his stats look good but they dont tell you how many missed shots he had down the stretch of those games. And alll four of those games were close in or going into the 4th quarter, But Kidd our leader didnt make pays to get us over the hump to wn at least 1 game. I dontharp on the Lakers series to much becuase we were cleary out classed & out matched in that series. But truth be told Martinwas our best offensive weapon in that series. </div>

Martin showed up for 1 game. Kidd showed up for the rest. Kidd's game is not offense as you said. KVH was non-existant in the finals. Kittles wasn't. Martin showed up one game and obviously he couldnt do it either.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan did it alone last year, what playoffs were you watching. I seen Tony Parker, Speedy Claxton, Stephen Jackson, David Robinson all out their making big plays to give help to Duncan, thats called a team.

And Hakeem in 94', you must have forgot the Rockets had Cassell, Horry, Elie, Mad Max all out their making big clutch shot after clutch shot. Not to mention Otis Thrope & Kenny Smith were both former all-star level players.</div>

The other guys played off of TD and Hakeem. They themselves are not superstars. If you look at championship superstar teams like the Lakers and Bulls, you'll notice that if you took away the best player, the team still had a legit chance at making the playoffs. Scottie took the Bulls to the ECF when Mike went out. Kobe and the Lakers would still take the team to the playoffs. If Magic was out, they still had a solid Kareem and Worthy and Scott. Take TD and Hakeem off those teams and they would be worse than the Hawks. With the Rockets, Cassell was only a rookie so he wasn't much a factor as he was the next year. SO yes, they did do it alone and the other players just played off their greatness. They didn't take the team to the championship.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">There is alot of if, whethers & buts in that statement. Fact of the matter is those teams were some ofthe deepest most vesitile teams in the league. Deep teams win games what more can I say. </div>

The team is comprised of a bunch of jumpshooters who only got their shots cause of Kidds penetration and dishing.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Elie & Del Negro were aging but they still had big shot making ablity something this Nets team lacks. And yes I give kidd alts of credit for taking us to the Finals but you can not deny the fact the the east was water down, both years he did it. Their was really no east team that was capable of knocking us off. This year was the 1st real year, where you could say that the Nets would have really had to work to get back to the Finals facig teams who were capable of winning not only the east but the entire championship(Pistons & Pacers)
</div>

I agree and notice Kmart isn't the one taking the Nets to the Finals. And notice that you didn't even mention him in the entire paragpragh.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes I watched them as much as possible in the few television games regular seaon, playoffs etc. They didnt have league Pass back then so me leaving on the east coast I could see so much of the Suns back then on cable & channel 4.

But I do know one thing forsure 3 out of 5, of the other best players on those teams were all-stars before they ever played with kidd. So they were proven. Cliff Robinson, Penny Hardaway, Googs were all 20+ point scorer before they ever payed with kidd. And Rodney Rogers, was good for like 10-15 pts during his clipper days before he even played with kidd as well. </div>

Googs was out for more than half the season. Penny was battling injuries. He was left with Cliff Robinson and Rodney Rogers. Hardly an intimidating team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Hmm... does k-mart have half-the options thse otherbigs have to pass the ball too?No. K-Mart is surrounded by a bunch of inconsstent shooters. And bigman who cant produce offensively.
</div>

So is Kidd and he can still get 9 assists with those inconsistent shooters.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course Pau will appear to be a better passer because he has more scoring & shooting option then Martin does. So when he passes the ball his shooters make the shots & his bigmen next to him finish plays in traffic. So it just appears that Gasol is a better passer.</div>

The Nets are a great layup team. Why not institute something the Kings have and get cutters and passer for Kmart to pass to? IT can't happen cause Kmart isn't that good of a passer.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">If Pau Gasol is such a better passer, why is it that over the past 3 season they have had the same assist average basically with Gasol having te more productive shooters & scoring options. </div>

Hubie Brown's system has limited Gasol's production. He plays around 30 mpg game now, less than Kmart and still gets the same assist numbers.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam not overrating, you are underatting K-Mart becas you want to keep kidd. So you are trying to make yourself believe we would be the same team with K-mart, but we clearly lose heart ,effort, tuffness, and a new found leadership,if w lose K-Mart. Try to convince yourself were not if you want.[/qupte]

You don't think we'd lose heart, effort and "tuffness" when we lose Kidd as well? You think that Kmart is gonna be the leader that Kidd was? You think he'll be as professional as Kidd was? You think he'll lead this team deep intto the playoffs without Kidd?

[quote name='Henacy']Iam not questioning your crediablity as a Nets fan, but its clear to me that your loyality toward Kidd comes before the better of the future of the Nets.
</div>

I could reverse this and say your loyalty is for Kmart than the "better of the future" of the Nets. The better future is subjective cause no one really knows what is going to happen. However we risk assess each future and mine is safer and proven.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam going to be a Nets fan whether Martin or Kidd goes. When my favorite Net/player of all-time Sam Cassell got traded at the trade deadline of the 99' season, I ws extremely dissapointed. And almost stop watching the Nets Almost, better then I had to step back & put thngs in to full context. That the Nets were trying to make a move that would at the time many people felt would better the franchise(it turns out that deal later led to the Kidd deal so it actually did benefit the franchise), but at the time I didnt know why the Nets wanted to go in the direction of Steph, who clearly had selfish tendancy shown in Minny. and Cassell was coming off an all-star type of season where the Nets made the playoffs. But like I said I had to step back. And look at the complete situation.

Steph was the young player, with all the upside in the world. And Cassell was the older player who had been battling a back injury from the season before. So the reasoning behind the move became more. And more clear to me. And I thinkyou should step back & look at the clear reasoning behind trading Kidd instead of K-Mart. Iam not asking you to like the idea of trading kidd,just to understand </div>

And we saw how the Marbury situation ended up. Lottery teams over and over. ANd these are different players we're talking about. Cassell wasn't good as Kidd is now. Unless you can garuntee me these trades

Kidd for Baron Davis and PJ Brown
Kidd for Bibby and Brad Miller
Kidd for Hinrich, Chandler, and Deng

Or Kidd for another supserstar like KG, Duncan, or Kobe, then I say there's no reason to trade.

However if we should trade Kmart if we can get
Elton Brand
Nene
Zach Randolph
Pau Gasol
this is if Kmart continues with his max contract nonsense.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Every rebuilding period is a risk, no matter what but when you have keep rebuilding parts like RJ & K-Mart. And potenial great trading bait in kidd then its a risk, I am willing to take.

Rebuilding around Martin & Rj the Nets have a good chance of gaining 3 or 4 years from now. Thats all it is for me, not a distruction of Kidd or a down grade of kidd. Just the franchise moving in a new & different direction thats all.
</div>

Is this really how you want to treat a franchise savior? Before Kidd, Kmart probably wouldve accepted a significant below max contract. Kidd made this franchise. He's still doing it. He's still holds this team together. Before it was a bunch of individual players playing for themselves. Now it's a team. Now it has a face and a leader. Kmart has not proven to be a leader. He gets the team motivated, but he does not lead the team to victories. It's Kidd and it will be till someone else does something.

And why do you keep saying rebuild? Why should the Nets scrap all this and start rebuilding? We were so close and still are close to winning and you want to give up all that just so we can still have Martin? Martin is my favorite Net, but I'm also being rational. He is NOT worth the contract he's seeking. You cannot tell me he's worth that much money. Kmart is a easier trade asset right now. Trading Kidd and his huge contract is not an easy task while a sign and trade for Kmart is easier and we could add depth and needs easier. And that's what should be done if and only if Kmart keeps asking for max contract.

 

You guys bith make sense. But here's the thing if you are going to build for the future then Kidd isn't in that equation cause I don't see that many years left in him so they must trade Kidd for talent that can benefit the future and that Chicago trade id looking mighty good. With the issue with KMart he deffinately is not worth that money has of right now, but he will be in the future. The only thing is he can't carry a team like all those top forwards you listed, heres one thing i do know if any of those player we're to get injured it would hurt their team more then Kmart getting hurt cause the nets can survive with out him, but not Kidd. Also during that series with the Pistons and the series with the Spurs KMart spent more time on the bench then the bench players did. He also has bad shot selection. This guy is was our number 1 draft pick most #1 or top picks have already elevated their game to almost carry a team by their 3 year. For example Shaq, KG, Kobe, TD, Brand, Iverson, Penny, Zo, Larry Johnson, and Weber. KMart is far from any of these players skills. But I say take the chance to keep KMart cause this guy can flat out play. His biggest thing is he feeds on the fans @ home and on the road it shows how weak his game can get. He just needs to become a more confident and smart player, i can see him becoming one of the best. You give some one that much money her better be worth it cause you know what happens when people get money they all of a sudden lose their skills to play. Like Toni Kukoc, Shawn Kemp and Joe Smith. Also Kidd makes players around really better then they are thats what I thought about RJ but he really opened my eyes this year. So as much as i hate to say it Kidd Makes KMart look really better then he is. I just think KMart has alot to prove just because of the players that came before him. I really think he can become a player like Charles Barkley but not as strong. Thats the type of player KMart reminds me of, so much skill and intensity on both ends of the court. I just really wish he produced the numbers that DC did when he was drafted cause he didn't become an allstar till what his 3 or fourth year.

But when it is all said and done thank you Jason Kidd for showing us the potential that we have and getting us so far but i gotta say good bye.

And To KMart even though as of right now you arent worth the money lets give it to you just because you have so much potential just based on that. Also 7 years is long enough for you to become that great of a player.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It was Gary Payton making the big shots for the Bucks last year. It was GP that was running the offense while Sam played off gaurd. And it was GP gaurding Sam's man during games. GP was the man for the Bucks last year. He was the Walt Fraizer while Sam was Earl Monroe.</div>

Gp was the man? the bucks record was .500 before he got their & the Bucks record was .500 going into the playoffs. He didnt up lift the team, they were basically the sae team before & after. Cassell made as many or more big shots as GP down the stretch of the season last year. Payton was up & down in the playoff series vs the Nets, last year while Cassell was pretty consisten only having one bad game really, game 6. Your right GP guard the best defendr in the back-court every night, because he is the better defender so that would be expected.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Agreed. But Kidd's deficiency in the half-court is not his fault alone. No one on the team can operate in the half court. So what does Kidd do? He runs. I see a 34 year old Gary Payton running down the court with Kobe. I saw a 40 year old John Stockton out hussling every other player on his opponents team. I saw a 40 year old Michael Jordan playing harder than his young team. Why does these players succeed? Cause their hearts are stronger and don't fade with age. Kidd's heart wont and we both agreed on that. Perhaps he won't be quick as he used to, but its not like he can't run.</div>

Nobody would ever say that GP's heart or MJ/Stockton's heart faded with age but their skill declined, its that simple. No matter how great of a player you are father time & injuries with catch up to you. It happen to MJ, Kareem, you name it the best of the best. And it will happen to kidd as well, just apart of basketball.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So say they trade Kidd like you propose</div>.

You say this like Iam the one who came up with the idea of shipping away kidd. Bruce Ratner has made it pretty clear, that more than likely either Kidd or Martin will have to go, which means Thorn will have to make the executive move on who to keep. And All Iam saying is I would rather build around K-Mart who is younger. Iam not proposing we trade kidd, Iam just understanding that if we must rebuild, its better to rbuild around Martin& Jefferson. And get younger parts inexchange for Kidd.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who is going to run the fast break as effectively? Martin obviously doesn't have enough low post moves to score and now he has no one giving him easy dunks or layups. His scoring will suffer without Kidd. I'm unconvinced that he's just as good without Kidd than Jefferson is. I think Jefferson has become independent of Kidd will Martin is still dependent.</div>

Who will run the fastbreak? In any trade the Nets make that includes kidd they will get either an all-star pg or a potenial all-star. If kidd leaves in a rbuilding process we will also build a team less dependent on the fast break. Rob Thorn even before any talk about trading kidd came up, said he was looking to build or retool the team in a fashion that int so dependent on the fast break. And I agree teams have figure this current Nets system out, its time for a change even if Kidd or Martin leaves or stays.

The reason we found out RJ wasnt dependent as much on kidd anymore was because Kidd wet down with the injury. And RJ got to "spread his wings & fly" so to speak. K-Mart didnt get the chace to prove such a thing because he was sitting in street close next to kidd, so I cant give you a 100% answer on whether or not he is still dependant on kidd or not.

But I tell you one thing I do know for sure, is that Martin adds new thing to his indiviual game every year. And during a season where you could say it was kidd's down year as a Net, K-Mart still improved as a player in all facest. So If Martin was still a dependent as he was say 2 years ago, then his prouction wold have decreased as kidd fought thru injuries all season, but they didnt. And In fact before he got injuried he was the team MVP this season.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When a player is ailing, the next superstar is supposed to pick up his game. When Jordan was faultering he had Scottie to carry the team. When Shaq can't get the ball, it was usually Kobe who penetrated and got Shaq the easy dunk. Where was Kidd's supposed next superstar? It obviously wasn't Kenyon. Kmart still to me has not proven that he is on a superstar level. He never picks up slack. He just gets his averages and settles for that. </div>

You were expecting Martin to carry the team against the best defensive frontline in basketball with no help in the post alongside him?

I dont know about everybody else but before that series started all I was hopig was that Martin could get was his average. I kne forus to stand any chance in the series Rj was going to have to carry us, because he had a huge advantage vs Prince in all the past matchups. And RJ did carry us the best he could. But truthfullly, I was expecting little more from kidd. He looked good against the Knicks, but once we face a good defensive team & they slow us down. And kidd doesnt produce then thats when the talk about his injury starts up again. Where was all the talk about his injury during the knicks series?

Iam not trying to disrespect kidd. But its the truth.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And it seems that all you care about is scoring. Scoring is the most important part of the game, yes, but there are players in this league that can win without scoring. Ben Wallace comes into mind. Rodman comes into mind. Mutombo comes to mind. Bob Cousy comes into mind. And finally Jason Kidd comes to mind. IF all you care about is scoring than the Nets should just trade Kidd for Glenn Robinson or Stackhouse</div>

Actually thats far from the truth, if you ask anybody that discuss with back & forth on Justbball, I dont just focus on scoring, I focus on the entire game. And the truth is kiid's entire game will decrease once he slows down and become a half-court player.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In the end, it's who got the win. Dirk was very efficient that game scoring 50%. Where was Kenyon's defense? If Dirk took more shots he wouldve matched Kenyon's performance. And once again you start this cop-excuse for not having parts.</div>

You know a player can guard somebody well. And they still shoot 50%,right?

Fact of the matter, Martin outplayed Dirk in the game. Martin has good ball denial defense which factored into Dirk only getting up 14 shots. And Dirk like to take bigman out on the perimeter to get his shot off. But K-Mart is as good guarding away from the basket as he his in the post, which leads to Dir giving the ball up alot more.

And when is saying the timberwolves & Dallas, a better team an excuse. We lost the games, its that simple, they were the better team. If you look at the players on the team its pretty clear to se they were a better team. Do you want Martin to make up for Harris, Collins, Williams, Rogers lack of production in those games as well?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">From the last two statements it seems that you think that Kenyon won't be as good as Dirk or KG so all he can do is match them. That's pathetic.</div>

hmm... I dont know where you get that from those two statements. Iam a realist, Iam notgoing into a matchup of Martin & KG, expecting Martin to outplay KG. As long as K-Mart puts up similar production then he has done his job. Its up to te rest of his team to now put the Nets over the top by outplaying their matchups. I fully expect Martin break into the Duncan/KG class of forwards in the future, If I didnt expect the vey best out of him why would I agree with the concept of building the teamaround him.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To beat these teams you have to beat these players. Kmart if he wants to be a max player has to outplay these players and shut them down. You think Tim Duncan only says "if I can match Dirk and KG, then we might win."?</div>

Yes you beat those players inoreder to win but you beat them with a team concept, not just Martin alone.

Why ar you talking about what the league MVP is thinking is K-Mart a league MVP yet. For now, K-Mart's main job is to do his best to match the likes of Duncan & KG,and if he outplays them then so be it. But we can go into a game expecting k-mart to out play them. artin's game isnot complete enuff yet but it will be in the future thats why we rebuild around him.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, and who did Dirk and Tim Duncan learn from? Duncan probably got some tips from David Robinson but he already came into the league as a 20-10 player. And how do you know Kenyon works alone? He can hire trainers with his own money. Trainers like Tim Grover. He can go play games with other stars in the league over the summer. He can ask Zo to help him out. It's not like Kmart has no one to learn from. It's his responsibility to</div>.

Mark Cuban hires former players to wor indiviual with each player that is a known fact. And Iam pretty sure Duncan got more hen just a few or some tips from one o the greatest centers of all-time. Duncan was not know for having the mid-range jumpe coming out of wake forest. And its one of the biggest weapons in his arsenial. Do you think its just some freak of nature that the mid-range J was one of the biggest parts of Robinson's game as well?

And wher did I say K-Mart doesnt have a trainer or play with other stars during the summer? Its clear by the improvements Marin makes every season that he working on his game during the off season. But There is a difference from having a trainer. And having a guy who is/was a legend in the league(like Machale with KG or Robinson with Duncan), take you under his wing and help with the advancement in your game. And give you sercet tips that trainers just dont know.

K-Mart never had Zo to work with before now, Iam pretty sure K-Mart will be working with Zo during the offseason.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's not all credited to Kevin McHale for KG's development. It's KG willingness to become better. I'm not saying Kenyon doesn't want to become better and isn't by any means. I'm arguing that till he becomes a top-tier powerforward in the league I don't think he should be paid max money</div>

I didnt say Mchale was to credit for KG becoming a better or great player. But from day one in Minny, KG has had players to lean on like Mchale, Sam Mitchell etc, to help him not only grow as a bal player but as a person. Who has K-Mart had like that in Jersey since his rookie year? Nobody, hopefully Zo will become a part of K-Marts growth.

Didnt KG get his first big contract before he was truely one of the leagues' best powe forwards? yes.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think you just slapped Kidd and RJ in the face with that statement. Kidd and RJ are all-star type players in the league, perhaps even more. And Dirk does carry the Mavs. In the closeout game against Sacramento this year, Dirk came to play. He poured his heart out against the Kings and it was not enough</div>

How is that a slap in the face to RJ & Kidd, after you get past the big 3 from both teams the Mavs are a far better team. Thier rookie produce more than our so-called proven vetreran outside of our big 3.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Dirk doesn't carry the Mavs, then Kmart doesn't carry the Nets. As I said before, Kmart is half a year older than Dirk and he's not putting the same output. Kmart better change alot this summer if he's going to reach Dirk's level.</div>

I never said k-mart carried the Nets as of rght now, I said we can rebuild around him.

And you said all I did was focus on scorng but if you think Dirk is a better player then Martin then its clear al you care about is scoring because Martin is already as good or better all-around player then Dirk.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree, Kmart's defense is 80-90 percent the reason Walker was having a trouble. I don't doubt Kmart's defense against moderate power forwards/small forwards. Usually Kmart owns them, I'm talking about the upper echelon forwards where Kenyon is non-existant. If he wants to pe paid like those forwards he better play like them</div>

No top power forward can stop another power forward all they can do is contan them. And over the years K-Mart has done his fare share of contianing some of the best thats all Iam saying.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A 20 pt on 9-16 shooting, 10 rebound, 2 stl, 2 blks and most importantly, the win say otherwise to Kmart loking JO down. You might, and probably will come back with the 23 on 10-20, 13 game that Kmart had and the Nets won...But look closer at that box sheet....Jason Kidd, 16, 10, 14, 2stls...A triple double. 14 assists, I wonder how many of them were to Kmart. Maybe you see the trend that I do..When Kidd has a good game, Kmart has good game. And when Kidd has a good game, the Nets win. When Kmart has a good game, do the Nets win? Obviously not in evidence of the Mavs game you point out.</div>

The Nets win everytime kidd produces a big game? no. You can win if only one or two players produce a solid game especially against top teams like the Mavs, Pacers, Wolves etc.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Obviously not productive enough to get pick up stupid superflous fouls and be in foul trouble each game. He average nearly 5 fouls each game.</div>

How many of thos fouls were legit, It was cler from the being of the series that the refs were holdng past incidents against Martin & R.Wallace. amd werent going to let them play wth giving them a bunch oftic-tac fouls.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Drobb is one my top five favorite players of all time. Maybe even top 3, but he clearly wasn't even a shadow of what he used to be. He was more servicible than Collins, I'll give you that. But he was playing barely 26 mpg and had a bad back. And in that series it was not Kmart that was doing the best on Timmy. It was Deke. Deke did a better job on Duncan than Kmart did. But I'll credit Kmart's flu for a reason for that.</div>

David Robinson averaged 11ppg, 7rbg & 2bpg in that series compared to JC 3.7pts & 4.7 rebs& less 1 blk per game. nuff' said.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Um, yes? Amare didn't shoot Antoine Walker percentages. Kmart went like 3-29 in the final game. If you shoot that many shots, its not hard to get around 15 ppg.</div>

You act like Martin shot that every game. It was one horrible game, if you take that one game out of the series he probably shot veryclose to 50% for the series.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq doesn't play good pick and roll deffense but he's a very good man defender. He gaurds Tim Duncan very well. Tim Duncan needed a desperation shot from the top of the key to get ahead in Game 5 this year. If it was Kmart he would've gotten him on the bottom of the box and shot a fadeaway or something.

Shaq's help defense is very good too. He's an intimidator. He fouls people hard that try to dunk on him. People don't bring it to the lane cause they're scared of Shaq. Thats part of defense too. It changes peoples game.</div>

Shaq's help dfense is horrible, he doesnt move is feet to come over to help. All he does is block shots that come in his zone. He doesnt chase blocks or bail his teamates out on D. like either of the Wallaces'

And yes Shaq does guard Duncan well, but he didnt have to do it much. Shaq herdly had to play D. in that series.

And why are you keep talking about what Duncan does in camparsion to what K-Mart, does. How do we know what K-Mart would have done in that situation K-art wasnt in that situation its as simple as that. Luck had to do more with that Duncan shot then anything else. Like Barkely said after fisher made his jumper that whole situation was a lucky shot for a lucky shot, period.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And the Pistons frontline just consists of a lot of bigs so they can body anyone up on the west. Shaq didn't have trouble against the frontline. He did better on them than the Spurs. The Pistons executed what every other team wants to do with the Lakers, let Shaq get his while everyone else gets nothing. Kobe was contained, the bench was stopped, GP was stopped.</div>

Shaq is the most unstoppable force in basketball,so I dont care what he did against their frontline.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If the Nets played against the Pistons better than anyteam, but if they had played against the Lakers they probably wouldn't have swept them as easily as the Pistons. I still believe they'd win, but not as easily as the Pistons did</div>



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you play basketball? Do you know how hard it is to make a jumpshot on one knee? Do you exactly understand how much pain Kidd must have been suffering through those games? Kidd played through injuries a lot, I don't see Kenyon doing much of that. Even Zo criticized Kmart for sitting out just cause of a sprained ankle.</div>

now you are just asking dumb questions. I already gave kidd an out for being injured during the Pistons series. But I mean how many out do you wnt me to give the man for poor shooting performances against good teams. You cant beat good teams if you best player can hardly make a jumpshot to save his life. Iam not asking kidd to be a scorer but at least get a solid jumpshot. Granted he has made improvement in his jumpshot from early in his pro career but it still isnt where it should be if he is going to be the player to lead us past the elite teams in the championship rounds.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And this goes back to the whole Kmart needing to step up. Kidd stepped up in the 3OT against the Pistons with Kmart fouled out. Now Kidd was in trouble and needed another player to step up. Kmart just settled for a mediocre game</div>

Like I said before Kidd missed free throws & turnovers were part of the reason it went three overtimes. He didnt bail us out, he bailed hisself out from getting chewed up in the local media for all the mistakes he & RJ made down the stetch. And in the last game Martin had a double-double, you cant make up for the fact that the teams best player doesnt score a basket for the entire game its just impossible.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So Kmart should just cut his losses and settle? I don't expect him to win games, I expect him to step up. 16 and 9 isn't stepping up. I didn't see any fire in his game. I didn't see him play his game. What I saw was a guy who wants a max contract settling for mediocre games and getting alot of stupid fouls</div>.

Did I say he should seetle. He didnt settle, he was attacking from begin t end of the series. But its only so much you can do against the Walace frontline alone.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Was it not Kidd who gave the layup to get the team ahead 2 points? Was it not RJ who found Scalabrine in the corner for the open 3? Was it not Kidd who drove and then kicked it out to Brian for an open 3? Brian didn't create these shots on his own. You make mistakes but you make up for them and Kidd and RJ did.</div>

Exactly you make mistakes & then you dig yourself out from them but you dont get extra credit for it because you put yourself in the hole. You want to give kidd some extra credit for something he help to create.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Agreed, but you still don't trade Kidd after that.



You don't know how much the sign and trade deals are. They could be for 103 million, they could be for 85. All you could do is be realistic, and I tend to think its not 100+ and think that's legit.



Who's talking about rebuilding? Are you ready to call quits on this Nets squad. I'm talking about building. Not REbuilding. As throwback said awhile ago, they were 2 games away from being NBA champs. Find the missing piece</div>.

Bruce Ratner said the Nets were cutting cost. And dropping salaries such as Kittles, Harris,Collins, Williams. You do have to bring in parts to replace all those players, I think thats called rebuilding



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nene does. He's the same build as Kevin Garnett but stronger. He's 5 years younger, 22 years old getting 12 and 6 and shoots a better percentage and takes less shots. He has a lot of room to get better. Defensively they're not far apart.</div>

Nene takes less shot cause he cant score. He shoots a better percentage because Nene is pretty content on standng to feet from the basket getting layups & dunks. While K-Mart is trying to stretch his rangeon the jumper & actually develope legit indiviual post moves.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Pick and roll isn't just a pick then a jumpshot from Kidd. There's the roll part to of a Tim Duncan, Rasho, or Malik Rose. Kidd's passing can hit on the roll or it can create space for another open man.</div>

You right thats why I didnt focus on kidd not running the pick & roll that much with the Nets. I mentine Mcdyess for that exact reason, yet he wasnt still able to run the pick & roll with the suns. Why doesnt Kidd run pick & roll when Rogers inthe game his jump is somewhat solid enuff to run the pick & roll with. I mean RJ runs more pick & roll in the half-court with our bigs then kidd does.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think that. I think you don't understand how important Kidd is to this team. He made this offense works. If we scrap him we need an entire new offense. One we're not sure if Kenyon and RJ can thrive in.</div>

I do know the importance of kidd to the offense, I doubt very few know more to be honest. Will we be the same fast break team? of course not, but in the half-court we run a motion offense with a lot of princeton cuts. So in the half-court we already focus more on team passing then just kidd making plays for us in the half-court.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Name one thing that Kmart can do better than KG? Not scoring. Definitely not passing. Not blocking shots. Not handling the ball KG's atleast Kmart's equal on defense if not better. KG's a better leader. He puts the team on his back. I think he's around 10 times better.</div>

I said KG was better in all facest but is he ten times better, thats basically saying k-mart is garbage. No power forward in the league is 10 times better then himor he wouldnt be a all-star at the highhest level of basketball,period. And that statement is to take nothing awy from KG,just give more credit to K-Mart then that.

Duncan & KG are in a whole other class. And then you have a bunch of all-star power forwards after that the Dirk's, the Brand's, an the k-marts's etc.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's not like Kmart never got outplayed. Tim Duncan always was steps ahead of him. Even Malik Rose got the best of him at times.</div>
You notce how you keep naming off differenet names from that spurs series Robinson, Duncan, Rose etc now nam one player from the nets frontline that produced in that series other then Martin? You cant that is the difference their fontline was deep ours wasnt.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who's being unrealistic? Kittles needed to pull his weight too. Kidd was already doing so much in everything else that you're asking him to gaurd a very fast player as well as run the offense, get everyone involved and spark the team? No one did that. Even MJ didn't. Who was gaurding the best player on the other team most of the time? It was Scottie. Kobe doesn't do that. Other than Rip Hamilton, I've never seen him gaurd the best swingman on the other team</div>

You just proved my point for me thank you, I never said Kidd was superman & surpose to do everything in the backcourt but are cearly acting like K-Mart is surpose to be superman on the Nets frontline, he surpose to grab all the rebounds, score all the low post points & guard the best low post bigmen in the league every night(and shut them down) wit no help from Collins, Williams & Rogers.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree. Why is Kidd taking all these shots? Partially like you mentioned he wanted to show Parker up, but if you watched Kmart and RJ they just watched Kidd do all this. They weren't cutting. Kmart wasn't battling for position down low. They were standing. So all Kidd was do was shoot</div>

K-Mart did far from watching in that series he was i attack mode just like kidd was but its hard to score when yu get by Duncan & got Robinson waiting atthe basket for you. And the bigman next to you cant finish a 2 foot layup.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Martin showed up for 1 game. Kidd showed up for the rest. Kidd's game is not offense as you said. KVH was non-existant in the finals. Kittles wasn't. Martin showed up one game and obviously he couldnt do it either.</div>

Martin only showed up for one game hmm... dropped 21 in game 1, 26 in game 3 & 35 game 4, his rebounding # wasnt great but that was because he was stuck out on the periter playing wing forward because Van Horn was too slow.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The other guys played off of TD and Hakeem. They themselves are not superstars.</div>

My point was they had deep teams.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you look at championship superstar teams like the Lakers and Bulls, you'll notice that if you took away the best player, the team still had a legit chance at making the playoffs. Scottie took the Bulls to the ECF when Mike went out. Kobe and the Lakers would still take the team to the playoffs. If Magic was out, they still had a solid Kareem and Worthy and Scott. Take TD and Hakeem off those teams and they would be worse than the Hawks. With the Rockets, Cassell was only a rookie so he wasn't much a factor as he was the next year. SO yes, they did do it alone and the other players just played off their greatness. They didn't take the team to the championship</div>

Cassell was a big factor his rookie season, the Knicks series, the Suns series, big shot after big shot, my friend.

You cearly took my point out of context, I wasnt trying to say the Rockets or Spurs culd make the playoffs with Dream or TD, my point was those teams were extremely deep with key parts.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The team is comprised of a bunch of jumpshooters who only got their shots cause of Kidds penetration and dishing.



I agree and notice Kmart isn't the one taking the Nets to the Finals. And notice that you didn't even mention him in the entire paragpragh.</div>

I didnt mention K-mart becasue it is clear cut that Kidd was the mian reason we made back to back finals. Thats is notin debate by me, my point is who should we build around in the upcoming years thats all.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Googs was out for more than half the season. Penny was battling injuries. He was left with Cliff Robinson and Rodney Rogers. Hardly an intimidating team.</div>

And a deep bench that included Shawn Marion, Rex Chapeman, & Todd Day etc,stepped in like I was trying to say you can win alot of regular season games if you are a deep team without that many quote stars, the Pacers did it this year they had Oneal & Artest and a bunch of solid parts but nothing special, yet they won 60 games, simialiar situation with those suns teams. They won alot of regular season games because of depth.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So is Kidd and he can still get 9 assists with those inconsistent shooters.



The Nets are a great layup team. Why not institute something the Kings have and get cutters and passer for Kmart to pass to? IT can't happen cause Kmart isn't that good of a passer.</div>

The Kings bimgmen are passing to each other(two of which are all-star caliber & Vlade the 3rd is a former all-star as well). And when they pass the ball to the perimeter they are passing to 2 of the best pure shooters in the league, please show me where on the Nets roster does K-Mart have these type of weapons to pass too.

And for the record Kidd gets most of his assist in the open court not half-court.


Hubie Brown's system has limited Gasol's production. He plays around 30 mpg game now, less than Kmart and still gets the same assist numbers.

K-Mart plays like 2 more minutes this year on average than Gasol, that isnt enuff difference to explain the fact that thier assist # are bascally equal. And Gasol has the deeper offensive team.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I could reverse this and say your loyalty is for Kmart than the "better of the future" of the Nets. The better future is subjective cause no one really knows what is going to happen. However we risk assess each future and mine is safer and proven</div>.

You could but that would be the truth I rather rebuild around the younger player with more upsie thats all. Iam not looking at the situation as kidd vs Martin.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And we saw how the Marbury situation ended up. Lottery teams over and over. ANd these are different players we're talking about. Cassell wasn't good as Kidd is now. Unless you can garuntee me these trades</div>

Nothing is a garuntee that is the risk you take when you rebuild. But K-Mart & Rj are a pretty safe bet with a lot of upside.

Yes the Marbury years were horrible, but also injury filled which played apart in the teams none success.

And Cassell was only here for one full season. And it was a great season, we made the playoffs whenthe east was a legit conference, we lost in the 1st roud to the Bulls. But heck that was the best team on the planet.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd for Baron Davis and PJ Brown</div>

doubt that will ever happen with Scott in New Orleans.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd for Bibby and Brad Miller</div>

Dont like this trade eithe not getting enuff young value in the deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd for Hinrich, Chandler, and Deng</div>

But this is the typpe of deal I was talking about when think about trading kidd. We get lots of young parts that can grow with K-Mart & RJ.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Or Kidd for another supserstar like KG, Duncan, or Kobe, then I say there's no reason to trade.

However if we should trade Kmart if we can get
Elton Brand
Nene
Zach Randolph
Pau Gasol
this is if Kmart continues with his max contract nonsense</div>

We wont get Brand or Randolph their respective teams are trying to build around them, Like we should do with Martin. The Blazers are offering Shareef not Zach

We could get Nene or Gasol but I dont think they are of all-around equal value.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Is this really how you want to treat a franchise savior? Before Kidd, Kmart probably wouldve accepted a significant below max contract. Kidd made this franchise. He's still doing it. He's still holds this team together. Before it was a bunch of individual players playing for themselves. Now it's a team. Now it has a face and a leader. Kmart has not proven to be a leader. He gets the team motivated, but he does not lead the team to victories. It's Kidd and it will be till someone else does something.</div>

kidd made this franchise?hmm... Dr J, Rick Barry & John Williamson then the likes of Buck Williams made this franchise.

And Iam not going to go into how much I respect what Kidd has done for this franchise. But like I said K-Mart was there also. And Basketball is a business & when a team rebuilds they rebuild around their young parts.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And why do you keep saying rebuild? Why should the Nets scrap all this and start rebuilding? We were so close and still are close to winning and you want to give up all that just so we can still have Martin? Martin is my favorite Net, but I'm also being rational. He is NOT worth the contract he's seeking. You cannot tell me he's worth that much money. Kmart is a easier trade asset right now. Trading Kidd and his huge contract is not an easy task while a sign and trade for Kmart is easier and we could add depth and needs easier. And that's what should be done if and only if Kmart keeps asking for max contract</div>.

Once again Iam not the person that saying we need to rebuild, its every newspaper in the tri-state area that say Ratner wants to rebuid. And drop contracts, so he can build a competive team, that can compete in 2007, when the Nets possibly move into the New York arena. He isnt focused on winning a championship now or Next season. He wants one 3 or 4 years down the roadthats why I say build around k-mart & RJ.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Gp was the man? the bucks record was .500 before he got their & the Bucks record was .500 going into the playoffs. He didnt up lift the team, they were basically the sae team before & after. Cassell made as many or more big shots as GP down the stretch of the season last year. Payton was up & down in the playoff series vs the Nets, last year while Cassell was pretty consisten only having one bad game really, game 6. Your right GP guard the best defendr in the back-court every night, because he is the better defender so that would be expected. </div>

So Gary, who gaurded the best backcourt player, matched Cassell's point production and shooting % of 47%, handled the ball and had more steals and less turnovers wasn't the best player?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Nobody would ever say that GP's heart or MJ/Stockton's heart faded with age but their skill declined, its that simple. No matter how great of a player you are father time & injuries with catch up to you. It happen to MJ, Kareem, you name it the best of the best. And it will happen to kidd as well, just apart of basketball.</div>

And what about MJ at 35, 36? He was still winning MVP trophies and taking the Bulls to the Championship. Not saying Kidd is as great as MJ but you can still be one of the best at that age. Gary Payton at 33 was a top 5 point gaurd and at 34 he still is a top point gaurd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You say this like Iam the one who came up with the idea of shipping away kidd. Bruce Ratner has made it pretty clear, that more than likely either Kidd or Martin will have to go, which means Thorn will have to make the executive move on who to keep. And All Iam saying is I would rather build around K-Mart who is younger. Iam not proposing we trade kidd, Iam just understanding that if we must rebuild, its better to rbuild around Martin& Jefferson. And get younger parts inexchange for Kidd.
</div>

Give me a newspaper article that Bruce Ratner was interviewed in. Give me an article where he SPECIFICALLY said he's cost cutting.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Who will run the fastbreak? In any trade the Nets make that includes kidd they will get either an all-star pg or a potenial all-star. If kidd leaves in a rbuilding process we will also build a team less dependent on the fast break. Rob Thorn even before any talk about trading kidd came up, said he was looking to build or retool the team in a fashion that int so dependent on the fast break. And I agree teams have figure this current Nets system out, its time for a change even if Kidd or Martin leaves or stays.</div>

We can't be a full halfcourt team if Martin isn't a halfcourt player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">The reason we found out RJ wasnt dependent as much on kidd anymore was because Kidd wet down with the injury. And RJ got to "spread his wings & fly" so to speak. K-Mart didnt get the chace to prove such a thing because he was sitting in street close next to kidd, so I cant give you a 100% answer on whether or not he is still dependant on kidd or not.
</div>

Players don't have to be down for another player to shine. Martin has an opportunity each game he plays to show his ability to become independent. He can demand for the ball downlow and be more aggressive.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">But I tell you one thing I do know for sure, is that Martin adds new thing to his indiviual game every year. And during a season where you could say it was kidd's down year as a Net, K-Mart still improved as a player in all facest. So If Martin was still a dependent as he was say 2 years ago, then his prouction wold have decreased as kidd fought thru injuries all season, but they didnt. And In fact before he got injuried he was the team MVP this season. </div>

I agree, but not to the level that he deserves a max contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You were expecting Martin to carry the team against the best defensive frontline in basketball with no help in the post alongside him?
</div>

Yes. If you want to be a great powerforward you have to get yours, no matter who it is. When KG went up against Malone and Shaq he average 24ppg 14 rebs 5 assts 1 stl 1 blk. It wasn't enough but he still got his point across. You can't tell me that Olowokandi/Johnson was THAT much better than Twin.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont know about everybody else but before that series started all I was hopig was that Martin could get was his average. I kne forus to stand any chance in the series Rj was going to have to carry us, because he had a huge advantage vs Prince in all the past matchups. And RJ did carry us the best he could. But truthfullly, I was expecting little more from kidd. He looked good against the Knicks, but once we face a good defensive team & they slow us down. And kidd doesnt produce then thats when the talk about his injury starts up again. Where was all the talk about his injury during the knicks series?
</div>

He was injured during the Knicks series. You could see it. Atleast I did. He didn't play defense as well, his passing was a bit off. It wasn't the same Kidd. It was just that the Knicks weren't such a great team. I don't know about you, but in the playoffs you're supposed to do better than the regular season, not settle for your averages. Just because you're going against very good defenders mean to settle for averages. You're supposed to take that as a challenge to rise above it. If Martin had done that then I would be on your side right now.

I would think that RJ would've had a hard time to get around Tayshaun and his length. Prince was long and had contained McGrady very well the season before and did a great job on Kobe this year. But RJ still rose above that (even though he ended flopping a lot) and played well. Cause that's what you're supposed to do when you play against better defenders, play your best. And I believe Martin didn't do that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam not trying to disrespect kidd. But its the truth. </div>

And it's the truth that Martin deserve a max contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually thats far from the truth, if you ask anybody that discuss with back & forth on Justbball, I dont just focus on scoring, I focus on the entire game. And the truth is kiid's entire game will decrease once he slows down and become a half-court player.</div>

You act like he won't be able to run up and down the court.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You know a player can guard somebody well. And they still shoot 50%,right?
</div>
Well then it's not top notch defense that Martin is supposed to have.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Fact of the matter, Martin outplayed Dirk in the game. Martin has good ball denial defense which factored into Dirk only getting up 14 shots. And Dirk like to take bigman out on the perimeter to get his shot off. But K-Mart is as good guarding away from the basket as he his in the post, which leads to Dir giving the ball up alot more.
</div>

I saw that game. Walker and Finley were going off like crazy and they didnt get the ball to Dirk cause they didn't think about Dirk. They were machine guns when they got the ball. I don't think there was any denial of ball as much as you claim.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And when is saying the timberwolves & Dallas, a better team an excuse. We lost the games, its that simple, they were the better team. If you look at the players on the team its pretty clear to se they were a better team. Do you want Martin to make up for Harris, Collins, Williams, Rogers lack of production in those games as well?
</div>

Yes I want Martin, who says he's worth max money, to make up for the lack of production of his teammates. I want him to set a standard in which they must play up to. When Kidd and Martin were down, RJ went for like 26/6/5 and told his teammates that it should be the level the rest of them play at. And players responded like the Dallas game where we came very close to beating them without Kidd or Martin. That's what leaders do.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">hmm... I dont know where you get that from those two statements. Iam a realist, Iam notgoing into a matchup of Martin & KG, expecting Martin to outplay KG. As long as K-Mart puts up similar production then he has done his job. Its up to te rest of his team to now put the Nets over the top by outplaying their matchups. I fully expect Martin break into the Duncan/KG class of forwards in the future, If I didnt expect the vey best out of him why would I agree with the concept of building the teamaround him. </div>

Then Martin doesn't deserve max money.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Why ar you talking about what the league MVP is thinking is K-Mart a league MVP yet. For now, K-Mart's main job is to do his best to match the likes of Duncan & KG,and if he outplays them then so be it. But we can go into a game expecting k-mart to out play them. artin's game isnot complete enuff yet but it will be in the future thats why we rebuild around him.
</div>

If I was going up against the league MVP I would make him earn his MVP trophy. In that game Martin's defense was lackadaiscal and definitely not playing his best.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Mark Cuban hires former players to wor indiviual with each player that is a known fact. And Iam pretty sure Duncan got more hen just a few or some tips from one o the greatest centers of all-time. Duncan was not know for having the mid-range jumpe coming out of wake forest. And its one of the biggest weapons in his arsenial. Do you think its just some freak of nature that the mid-range J was one of the biggest parts of Robinson's game as well?
</div>

Or maybe a trainer taught Duncan to shoot a mid-range J. It's not like a mid-range jumper is hard to learn. It's not like Duncan didn't know that before he played with DRobb. He could've learned it from David, or he could've added it himself. You speak of it as if the midrange J is this move that David Robinson only knew. If it was Hakeem and he taught Duncan the Dream Shake, that be different.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And wher did I say K-Mart doesnt have a trainer or play with other stars during the summer? Its clear by the improvements Marin makes every season that he working on his game during the off season. But There is a difference from having a trainer. And having a guy who is/was a legend in the league(like Machale with KG or Robinson with Duncan), take you under his wing and help with the advancement in your game. And give you sercet tips that trainers just dont know.
</div>

I understand McHale and KG. I don't for DRobb and Duncan. And why do you base this soley on because Martin doesn't have anyone to learn from? Deke was here for a season, maybe he taught Martin to play better D. Alonzo was here for one summer maybe he taught Martin some post moves. Don't act like Martin has no stars to learn from.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">K-Mart never had Zo to work with before now, Iam pretty sure K-Mart will be working with Zo during the offseason. </div>

How do you know? Zo was there for summer camp.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I didnt say Mchale was to credit for KG becoming a better or great player. But from day one in Minny, KG has had players to lean on like Mchale, Sam Mitchell etc, to help him not only grow as a bal player but as a person. Who has K-Mart had like that in Jersey since his rookie year? Nobody, hopefully Zo will become a part of K-Marts growth.</div>

Why do you make so many excuses for him when you expect more out of Jason. It's not like he's locked up and prevented from learning. What is this grow and be a better person stuff? There are plenty of role models out there to learn to be a better person. Don't think just in the confines of New Jersey. My role model while growing up was David Robinson and how he conducted himself. Do I personally know DRobb? No. To be a better player? There are plenty of things to learn from. I watch tapes of old players and study their moves and then practice them. I also ask around people at courts about moves they do. I mean there's so many different ways to learn and not just by himself.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Didnt KG get his first big contract before he was truely one of the leagues' best powe forwards? yes. </div>

He was also averaging 19, 10, 4, 2, 2 while shooting 50%. If Martin was doing that, then it be a different case.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">How is that a slap in the face to RJ & Kidd, after you get past the big 3 from both teams the Mavs are a far better team. Thier rookie produce more than our so-called proven vetreran outside of our big 3.
</div>

You said: "Dirk carry a team hmm... I dont know about that. Its easy to carry a team when it has 3 or 4 all-star type players other than you. "

I don't know about you, but that implied to me that Martin didn't have other all-star type players around him.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said k-mart carried the Nets as of rght now, I said we can rebuild around him.

And you said all I did was focus on scorng but if you think Dirk is a better player then Martin then its clear al you care about is scoring because Martin is already as good or better all-around player then Dirk. </div>

Dirk does more than score. He's younger than Martin (which is a plus for you), outplays each of his opponents, averages almost the same about of boards and more assists. He's taller and can handle the ball. Ask any non-Net fan and they would choose Dirk over Martin.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">No top power forward can stop another power forward all they can do is contan them. And over the years K-Mart has done his fare share of contianing some of the best thats all Iam saying.</div>

And they do more than contain with Martin.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">The Nets win everytime kidd produces a big game? no. You can win if only one or two players produce a solid game especially against top teams like the Mavs, Pacers, Wolves etc.
</div>

Yes that one player being Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">How many of thos fouls were legit, It was cler from the being of the series that the refs were holdng past incidents against Martin & R.Wallace. amd werent going to let them play wth giving them a bunch oftic-tac fouls.
</div>

You can't blame the refs for that. The series was called evenly. The fouls on Martin were legit. Even if they weren't, how could he not adjust to what the refs wanted from him and Rasheed? Either way you're gonna get called for a foul if you continued. So play for the refs. RJ did.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">David Robinson averaged 11ppg, 7rbg & 2bpg in that series compared to JC 3.7pts & 4.7 rebs& less 1 blk per game. nuff' said. </div>

As I said, that isn't even a shadow of what David Robinson was. And even though they're solid, when he's gaurding Martin, he shouldve looked like he was better. Didnt happen.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You act like Martin shot that every game. It was one horrible game, if you take that one game out of the series he probably shot veryclose to 50% for the series.</div>

One game????? Did you realize that the Nets wouldn't win the championship if they didn't win that one game?? Do you realize how important that one game is??? 3-29 is unacceptable.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq's help dfense is horrible, he doesnt move is feet to come over to help. All he does is block shots that come in his zone. He doesnt chase blocks or bail his teamates out on D. like either of the Wallaces'</div>

I don't think you watch Shaq play. I don't understand how you can block nearly 3 shots and that not be called good defense. I also don't understand how you can chase blocks. You think Kobe and GP gamble for steals not knowing the big guy is behind to help?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And yes Shaq does guard Duncan well, but he didnt have to do it much. Shaq herdly had to play D. in that series.
</div>

Whenever it was a big possesion for the Spurs, Shaq was on Duncan and did a good job. And that's what matters the most, when there's a big possession you're best defender is on their best guy and make them take the hard shot or stops them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And why are you keep talking about what Duncan does in camparsion to what K-Mart, does. How do we know what K-Mart would have done in that situation K-art wasnt in that situation its as simple as that. Luck had to do more with that Duncan shot then anything else. Like Barkely said after fisher made his jumper that whole situation was a lucky shot for a lucky shot, period. </div>

We do know what Kmart would've done. We've seen it in the Finals. He let Duncan get position down low and scored. And it was Shaq who said that quote.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq is the most unstoppable force in basketball,so I dont care what he did against their frontline.</div>

Then what about Jermaine O'Neal? He averaged 17,10,1, 3 blks agaisnt that frontline. Hardly intimidating, but still better than Martin.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You cant beat good teams if you best player can hardly make a jumpshot to save his life.</div>

And you can't beat teams when your supposed low-post go to guy isn't scoring or getting enough rebounds.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam not asking kidd to be a scorer but at least get a solid jumpshot. </div>

And I'm not asking Kmart to be a KG or Duncan, but to play your absolute best and leave nothing on the table. Kmart didn't do that. You can't tell me that he played his absolute best.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Granted he has made improvement in his jumpshot from early in his pro career but it still isnt where it should be if he is going to be the player to lead us past the elite teams in the championship rounds. </div>

Do you realize that the Nets lose mroe games when he scores above 20? It's cause then he's focused on his jumpshot and scoring and not getting his teammates involved.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said before Kidd missed free throws & turnovers were part of the reason it went three overtimes. He didnt bail us out, he bailed hisself out from getting chewed up in the local media for all the mistakes he & RJ made down the stetch. </div>

And him bailing themselves out won the game. You make mistakes, then you correct them. Martin made a ton of mistakes but didn't correct them. This is what I'm arguing.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And in the last game Martin had a double-double, you cant make up for the fact that the teams best player doesnt score a basket for the entire game its just impossible.
</div>

Double digit rebounding is not that hard in those type of games where everyone was missing a ton of shots.

And I'm not making up for Kidd not making a shot. But if you excuse Martin as many times as you did, then I'lm going to excuse Kidd in this case. Martin the entire series played mediocre. Kidd played hard and obviously he had nothing left by that last game. Thats the difference. Getting a double double for Martin should be an expected. Elevating that team to a win is what he should have done. Making up for that his leader was not having a good game and taking the load. When MJ had a bad game, players like Scottie, Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, Paxon, Levingston, all picked up for him.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Did I say he should seetle. He didnt settle, he was attacking from begin t end of the series. But its only so much you can do against the Walace frontline alone.</div>

You did say he should settle when you said, "I dont know about everybody else but before that series started all I was hopig was that Martin could get was his average." You don't get your averages in the playoff. That's settling.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly you make mistakes & then you dig yourself out from them but you dont get extra credit for it because you put yourself in the hole. You want to give kidd some extra credit for something he help to create.</div>

If you notice, most of the credit was given to Brian. But atleast kidd and RJ made up for their mistakes. That's more than what Martin can say.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Bruce Ratner said the Nets were cutting cost. And dropping salaries such as Kittles, Harris,Collins, Williams. You do have to bring in parts to replace all those players, I think thats called rebuilding
</div>

Once again, find me an article where Bruce said it HIMSELF. Not from other people, not from opinions, I want HIS direct quote.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Nene takes less shot cause he cant score. He shoots a better percentage because Nene is pretty content on standng to feet from the basket getting layups & dunks. While K-Mart is trying to stretch his rangeon the jumper & actually develope legit indiviual post moves.
</div>

That sounds a lot like Kmart when he started out. Except, Nene is younger. ANd Nene is improving each year and thats why he has so much more upside.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You right thats why I didnt focus on kidd not running the pick & roll that much with the Nets. I mentine Mcdyess for that exact reason, yet he wasnt still able to run the pick & roll with the suns. Why doesnt Kidd run pick & roll when Rogers inthe game his jump is somewhat solid enuff to run the pick & roll with. I mean RJ runs more pick & roll in the half-court with our bigs then kidd does.
</div>

I have no idea what you just said there.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I do know the importance of kidd to the offense, I doubt very few know more to be honest. Will we be the same fast break team? of course not, but in the half-court we run a motion offense with a lot of princeton cuts. So in the half-court we already focus more on team passing then just kidd making plays for us in the half-court.
</div>

Then you should know that Kidd made this offense work. Marbury couldn't figure it out and thats why he's gone.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I said KG was better in all facest but is he ten times better, thats basically saying k-mart is garbage. No power forward in the league is 10 times better then himor he wouldnt be a all-star at the highhest level of basketball,period. And that statement is to take nothing awy from KG,just give more credit to K-Mart then that.
</div>

Then your perception of 10 times isn't the same as mine. 10 times means that Kmart has no edge on KG at anything, which is true. 10 times means at an MVP level while the other is not. Which is true.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Duncan & KG are in a whole other class. </div>

Exactly, being much more than the other players.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You notce how you keep naming off differenet names from that spurs series Robinson, Duncan, Rose etc now nam one player from the nets frontline that produced in that series other then Martin? You cant that is the difference their fontline was deep ours wasnt.
</div>

Why can't Martin make up for some of the discrepency? Why can't he have a great game for himself? Why can't he set the level of tone for others? Why does Kidd have to play at this amazing level above everyone else whereas Martin has an excuse to play at a mediocre level? KG when playing against better frontlines like the Mavs, Jazz (with a still prime Malone and Ostertag), still gets his and produces. Even this year against CWebb, Divac, and Brad Miller he beat every one of them. Thats what I'm asking KMart to do. To know that his teammates aren't better than the others and play his heart out and to motivate his frontline to play better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You just proved my point for me thank you, I never said Kidd was superman & surpose to do everything in the backcourt but are cearly acting like K-Mart is surpose to be superman on the Nets frontline, he surpose to grab all the rebounds, score all the low post points & guard the best low post bigmen in the league every night(and shut them down) wit no help from Collins, Williams & Rogers.
</div>

Never said that Kmart has to grab all the rebounds or score all the low post points. I ask him to earn his own. You said Kidd wasn't a great scorer, but he had 19 and 8 in the Finals. 19 is more than kidd has averaged in the regular season. This is cause he played at a different level. Martin doesn't follow that path. He's inconsistent. When facing Duncan he didn't do very well. And this year against the Pistons he settled for his averages. To me, thats not rising up. Credit the defense of the frontline all you want but when you watch those games, he wasnt being aggressive he wasn't demanding any respect and was getting shoved around. To me, that doesn't warrant a max contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">K-Mart did far from watching in that series he was i attack mode just like kidd was but its hard to score when yu get by Duncan & got Robinson waiting atthe basket for you. And the bigman next to you cant finish a 2 foot layup. </div>

Cop out excuse.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Martin only showed up for one game hmm... dropped 21 in game 1, 26 in game 3 & 35 game 4, his rebounding # wasnt great but that was because he was stuck out on the periter playing wing forward because Van Horn was too slow. </div>

I'm not gonna harp on Martin for those finals games cause he clearly wasn't the worst one and he was a sophomore in the league. But I'm going to harp on him now cause he's a 4 year vet.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">My point was they had deep teams.
</div>

Both of those teams are also being argued as the worst finals teams ever.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Cassell was a big factor his rookie season, the Knicks series, the Suns series, big shot after big shot, my friend.

You cearly took my point out of context, I wasnt trying to say the Rockets or Spurs culd make the playoffs with Dream or TD, my point was those teams were extremely deep with key parts.</div>

And my point was that you should give the most credit to Hakeem and TD. The other players just played off of them.

Hakeem went against a prime Ewing, Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason and had only Otis Thorpe and Robert Horry and won. The other team had a better individual frontline while Hakeem made up the difference. This is what I'm asking Martin to do. To atleast make up most of the difference. I'm not asking him to be Hakeem, just to play at his highest level.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And a deep bench that included Shawn Marion, Rex Chapeman, & Todd Day etc,stepped in like I was trying to say you can win alot of regular season games if you are a deep team without that many quote stars, the Pacers did it this year they had Oneal & Artest and a bunch of solid parts but nothing special, yet they won 60 games, simialiar situation with those suns teams. They won alot of regular season games because of depth.</div>

The depth of this years Pacers team was better than that Suns team. My point was that Kidd made them play better, its not like those players individually played great whether Kidd was or was not there. He made them better and perhaps thats why they haven't been as great since he's left.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">The Kings bimgmen are passing to each other(two of which are all-star caliber & Vlade the 3rd is a former all-star as well). And when they pass the ball to the perimeter they are passing to 2 of the best pure shooters in the league, please show me where on the Nets roster does K-Mart have these type of weapons to pass too.
</div>

Well thats cause they find the open man. I don't see Kmart finding an open Kittles or Lucious Harris or Rodney Rogers. I don't see him passing to a cutting Kittles, Kidd, or RJ. Martin's passing is a person breaks free and he passes to them. That's all.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And for the record Kidd gets most of his assist in the open court not half-court.</div>

Thats because of what you said before, the Nets don't have consistent shooters. I thought that was obvious.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">K-Mart plays like 2 more minutes this year on average than Gasol, that isnt enuff difference to explain the fact that thier assist # are bascally equal. And Gasol has the deeper offensive team.
</div>

Martin plays 6 more minutes than Gasol in the regular and nearly 10 in the playoffs. 6 minutes is ALOT. That's half a quarter.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">You could but that would be the truth I rather rebuild around the younger player with more upsie thats all. Iam not looking at the situation as kidd vs Martin.
</div>

I'm assuming that's one of your many typos. How much more upside does Kenyon have? He's nearly 27 years old. Kidd is not even 4 years older. If Kmart was to become a franchise player he would have to do it next season cause he won't even have 10 more years at his current level.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">doubt that will ever happen with Scott in New Orleans.
Dont like this trade eithe not getting enuff young value in the deal.
But this is the typpe of deal I was talking about when think about trading kidd. We get lots of young parts that can grow with K-Mart & RJ.</div>

You obviously didn't get my point. It's called, trading Kidd won't happen.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">We wont get Brand or Randolph their respective teams are trying to build around them, Like we should do with Martin. The Blazers are offering Shareef not Zach
</div>

Once again, missing the point. I'm saying that Kmart is replaceable, Kidd is not.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">kidd made this franchise?hmm... Dr J, Rick Barry & John Williamson then the likes of Buck Williams made this franchise.</div>

Yeah Dr. J was gone once entered to the NBA. Buck and Rick never took the Nets to the Finals or deep into the playoffs. So I think Kidd gets a nod over them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">And Iam not going to go into how much I respect what Kidd has done for this franchise. But like I said K-Mart was there also. And Basketball is a business & when a team rebuilds they rebuild around their young parts.
</div>

Yeah, and Kittles was there too. So? How are you so sure that Ratner, who wants to cut costs will rebuild correctly around RJ and Martin? And Martin at max contract isnt far from Kidd at max contract, so how do you know that Ratner will be ok at signing him at that level?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again Iam not the person that saying we need to rebuild, its every newspaper in the tri-state area that say Ratner wants to rebuid. And drop contracts, so he can build a competive team, that can compete in 2007, when the Nets possibly move into the New York arena. He isnt focused on winning a championship now or Next season. He wants one 3 or 4 years down the roadthats why I say build around k-mart & RJ.
</div>

Show me a newspaper that used the word rebuild. Dropping big contracts and cost-cutting is not synonomous with rebuilding. It's called being frugal. If you think that's rebuilding, then the Clippers have been rebuilding forever. Is that what you want? To be the Clippers of the East? I rather have Kidd and RJ lead us to the playoffs each year, atleast be a respectable team.

I can't keep doing this with you for much longer cause I work, but in the end you'll have your opinion and mine with mine. Either way, you have to see that Kmart is NOT a max contract player. I mean, you know that, right? You have to. If he gets one he'll be like Antawn Jamison or Juwan Howard from a couple years ago. Max players lead their team. Kmart hasn't lead the team yet. RJ has pulled ahead of him in that respect. And that's what I wanted to say. That Kmart is NOT a max player and does not lead this team.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NJNetz:</div><div class="quote_post">You guys bith make sense. But here's the thing if you are going to build for the future then Kidd isn't in that equation cause I don't see that many years left in him so they must trade Kidd for talent that can benefit the future and that Chicago trade id looking mighty good. With the issue with KMart he deffinately is not worth that money has of right now, but he will be in the future. The only thing is he can't carry a team like all those top forwards you listed, heres one thing i do know if any of those player we're to get injured it would hurt their team more then Kmart getting hurt cause the nets can survive with out him, but not Kidd. Also during that series with the Pistons and the series with the Spurs KMart spent more time on the bench then the bench players did. He also has bad shot selection. This guy is was our number 1 draft pick most #1 or top picks have already elevated their game to almost carry a team by their 3 year. For example Shaq, KG, Kobe, TD, Brand, Iverson, Penny, Zo, Larry Johnson, and Weber. KMart is far from any of these players skills. But I say take the chance to keep KMart cause this guy can flat out play. His biggest thing is he feeds on the fans @ home and on the road it shows how weak his game can get. He just needs to become a more confident and smart player, i can see him becoming one of the best. You give some one that much money her better be worth it cause you know what happens when people get money they all of a sudden lose their skills to play. Like Toni Kukoc, Shawn Kemp and Joe Smith. Also Kidd makes players around really better then they are thats what I thought about RJ but he really opened my eyes this year. So as much as i hate to say it Kidd Makes KMart look really better then he is. I just think KMart has alot to prove just because of the players that came before him. I really think he can become a player like Charles Barkley but not as strong. Thats the type of player KMart reminds me of, so much skill and intensity on both ends of the court. I just really wish he produced the numbers that DC did when he was drafted cause he didn't become an allstar till what his 3 or fourth year.

But when it is all said and done thank you Jason Kidd for showing us the potential that we have and getting us so far but i gotta say good bye.

And To KMart even though as of right now you arent worth the money lets give it to you just because you have so much potential just based on that. Also 7 years is long enough for you to become that great of a player.</div>

I agree with what you said whole-heartly except about giving him the max contract. In 7 years, he'll be nearly 34 years old.

 

you 2 must have a lot of time on ur hands to type all that
how long did that take you?

 

the way i think about it is that is if k mart wouldnt be so selfish then they could get a another good player to add to the mix like a better center or something then they might have a even better chance at the title

 

I'm with you throwback. I hope they keep the big three but it seems we're going in a different direction. Only RJ is untouchable. Damn Ratner.

BTW, Stro and KMart are like day and night. Stro might beat KMart in a dunk contest but Stro's importance to a team doesn't even come close to KMart's

RJ4life, the NBA is a business. If you're young and talented, asking for the max if you know you're worth it and a lot of teams will be offering it doesn't mean you're not selfless. He already stated that he want's to remain a Net.

 

nets would be insane to even consider getting rid of kidd. hes a top 10 player in the leauge, and arguably the best PG in the L. k-mart's game would really suffer without him, and the nets would fall to the bottom of the playoff picture.

keeping the nucleus of deff jeff, k-mart and kidd together should be paramount. trade kittles for little to nothing if you have to. keep those 3 together

 

what it really comes down to is can we trade kittles and what could we get back. we are more in need to get rid of him than actually getting fair value for him. all reports talk about if kk stays,big3 can become the big2. im still in awe that kk is goina make aroun 10mil this upcoming yr, thats way too much for him. hopefully a team like atlanta or maybe orlando some team that wants to clear up cap room for following year can take him. im sure we will be able to get rid of kk,but may not get great value in return. but if we basically have to give kk up for almost free in order to keep the big3,then it is well worth it. the NYPost did an article on kk must go for big3 to remain

 

OK guys tell me this If you keep the big three how much damage can the big 3 do to any team in the league. People don't understand is that Kittles is a good player and if you get near to nothing to keep the big three who is going to take his place and add the 15-20 points on the board. God knows it aint going to be the bench. Come on guys he did what he had to do in the playoffs against detriot and was even scoring more consistant then KMart and spent less time on the bench. Yes his pay check is quite hefty. So you keep the big three what happens then now you got a high priced team (being that RJ is problably going to ask for max salary when his time comes but he is worth plus I have made respect for a person that would rather take a olympic gold medal then a NBA championship like he he said on espn) with no other talent around the big three where can you expect to go realisticly keep them go no where trade 2 I like Kittles and Kidd Package. And get player that complement RJ and Kmart because they are the future not JKidd he is like if we got Shaq he is a immediate fix for the team but not a long term. And i dont see Kidd winning a championship with this team right now. I would like to trade him to a team in the west that I know can win a title goes you gotta give it to the man he deserves it so much last was the year he should have gotten it. The first 2 Nets teams when Kidd was here was much better then the one that we saw this year and looks better then what it would look like if we went and kept the big three. Every year we keep getting rid of an key piece of this team and getting nothing in return. Van Horn (game winning shot against Boston) and Mutombo (i know he was probably a waste but Scott didnt play him enough, respect to a man that dives for balls in the playoffs knowing that he shouldnt Mutombo nice try) could have used him this year. Now this year Kittles possible Kidd. What they should have done was try to build around them not fix the starting line by adding Zo but Kidd would have never signed if we didnt go for him. Now Kidd said on ESPN.com is if they dont Keep KMart he may need to go to another team. How much do you think kidd wants to stay with a team with 2 young stars RJ and KMart pretty good. Now lets take Kmart and Kittles out of the equation and 2 or 3 mediocre players (since pretty much the whole bench is nothing but player that cant really perform on the NBA level day in and day out. And what do you have? You have Kidd pulling a Shaq, but we all know how Kidd is, he'll do it secretivly (I.E. Byron Scott) and say he wants to get traded cause now he is already got the money. Now he needs to go to a contending team. Trade him to Dallas so that he can play with Shaq a big man that he has never had (cause he wants to play with a big man).

Like i Keep saying I am Fan but I am a realistic fan if its going to come down to it lets rebuild but still be competitive. Because we can still be competitive especially in the East. Also we dont have any real yong talent other then KMart and RJ. So let the Competitive Rebuilding begin.

The Nets will come through this because this team is built on true Warriors to Hold them down RJ and KMart and Kidd if he doesnt get traded.

Now can you dig that.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">When he's worth the 100+ Million dollar contract, make sign him to an extension. Right now he's not and that's all I care about.</div>

When that happens, somebody already signed him up for a max and we can't do crap about it. Do you really want someone else to reap the benefits of KMart's peak?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with what you said whole-heartly except about giving him the max contract. In 7 years, he'll be nearly 34 years old.</div>

Which for most well-trained athletes are their prime.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Well thats cause they find the open man. I don't see Kmart finding an open Kittles or Lucious Harris or Rodney Rogers. I don't see him passing to a cutting Kittles, Kidd, or RJ. Martin's passing is a person breaks free and he passes to them. That's all.</div>

It's because that's not how the Nets' offense work. With the Princeton offense that they're running, KMart and Twin makes the pre-assist. That's a pass that leads to an assist.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Cop out excuse.</div>

How can playing offense and defense against TD and Admiral be a cop out excuse? Even Shaq had troubles with the two. To think that he's the most dominating ever.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Show me a newspaper that used the word rebuild. Dropping big contracts and cost-cutting is not synonomous with rebuilding. It's called being frugal. If you think that's rebuilding, then the Clippers have been rebuilding forever. Is that what you want? To be the Clippers of the East? I rather have Kidd and RJ lead us to the playoffs each year, atleast be a respectable team.

I can't keep doing this with you for much longer cause I work, but in the end you'll have your opinion and mine with mine. Either way, you have to see that Kmart is NOT a max contract player. I mean, you know that, right? You have to. If he gets one he'll be like Antawn Jamison or Juwan Howard from a couple years ago. Max players lead their team. Kmart hasn't lead the team yet. RJ has pulled ahead of him in that respect. And that's what I wanted to say. That Kmart is NOT a max player and does not lead this team.</div>

You have to understand that you have to be frugal if you want to rebuild. Yes, the Clippers are being frugal and rebuilding but the problem is, who wants to play for the Clippers?

Antawn Jamison? Juwan Howard? I won't even comment on that.

KMart is not a leader? There is such a thing as an emotional leader and it's something as important as the stat leader. Jefferson haven't passed KMart in that department. Just because Jefferson held his own with the absence of KMart and Kidd doesn't mean he's a leader. But he's almost there.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have the big three back. But if there's not choice, I'd prefer to have KMart over Kidd for the reasons stated by Henacy.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">When that happens, somebody already signed him up for a max and we can't do crap about it. Do you really want someone else to reap the benefits of KMart's peak?</div>

At his peak he still won't be work 85 million dollars. So they can reap all they want, but he still won't carry the team to a victory or to the playoffs.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Which for most well-trained athletes are their prime.</div>

Then we should keep Kidd instead of Martin cause Kidd's prime hasn't even come according to you. This is if we have to choose.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">
It's because that's not how the Nets' offense work. With the Princeton offense that they're running, KMart and Twin makes the pre-assist. That's a pass that leads to an assist.</div>

Not all the time. I doubt when a Nets team gets a pass from Twin or Kmart they're like "Oh this is a pass to another pass so I shouldn't score". Princeton offense also relieson cutters so if Kmart was a good passer he need to find passer. He's an average passer at best. Which is ok for a big man.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">How can playing offense and defense against TD and Admiral be a cop out excuse? Even Shaq had troubles with the two. To think that he's the most dominating ever.</div>

It's unexcusable the way Martin played against DRobb and TD. For all his bravado and "courage" he should atleast pose a formidale foe. Instead, TD and Drobb had their way with KMart and Kenyon had very poor games. Shaq had trouble, but he wasn't stopped. I expected Kmart to atleast play his heart out, and you and I both know he didn't.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">You have to understand that you have to be frugal if you want to rebuild. Yes, the Clippers are being frugal and rebuilding but the problem is, who wants to play for the Clippers?
</div>

How are you being frugal when you want to overpay a player? Hmm? Martin isn't worth a max contract and you don't rebuild by paying a player way more than he's worth.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">KMart is not a leader? There is such a thing as an emotional leader and it's something as important as the stat leader. Jefferson haven't passed KMart in that department. Just because Jefferson held his own with the absence of KMart and Kidd doesn't mean he's a leader. But he's almost there.
</div>

He's emotional when we're winning. He's hypes up the crowd when the Nets are up. But what happens when the Nets are down? He isn't hyping up the team, he isn't doing his chants, jumping around screaming. So this is a onesided leader.

RJ lead both ways for the team. When the team is down he stepped up his play. Even when they were losing he played his heart out. That's what I expect from Martin. To paly his heart out when we're down and when our true leader, Kidd is hurt. If he's not then don't give him a max contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Antawn Jamison? Juwan Howard? I won't even comment on that.
</div>

I don't think you got my point. Antawn Jamison is being paid max contract around 13 mil a year. Juwan Howard had a 100 million contract couple years back. They were considered good, but extremely overpaid players cause they couldn't carry the team. I believe if Kenyon was given a max contract like these players then he'd be considered the same.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have the big three back. But if there's not choice, I'd prefer to have KMart over Kidd for the reasons stated by Henacy.</div>

Get past Kmart's bravado and entertaining play and realize what he is. He's a showman and you can see his intensity.....but its superficial... When the Nets needed a 2nd star, it was not Kmart. He backed away. He didn't show up. When he goes up against good frontcourt, he's non-existant. Great players GET THEIRS. They don't back down. They EARN RESPECT. KG earned his respect against good front courts. Tim Duncan earned respect against good front courts. Dirk earned respect against good front courts. These are the type of max powerforwards there are. To think that Kmart has reached their level is nonsense. Until he does, he should take his 70 million dollar contract and play hard.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">At his peak he still won't be work 85 million dollars. So they can reap all they want, but he still won't carry the team to a victory or to the playoffs.</div>

How can you say that? Don't you notice how he's improving? When he was in college, dunking and defense are his only good points. Look at him now. Take a look at his stats year after year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Then we should keep Kidd instead of Martin cause Kidd's prime hasn't even come according to you. This is if we have to choose.</div>

Not with an impending surgery to his knees. Besides, wouldn't you want someone alongside RJ when he himself reaches his peak? Just imagine how much damage KMart and RJ can do together. What will happen after two years with Kidd? What will happen with KMart after two years? Oh yeah, a 20/10 guy.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Not all the time. I doubt when a Nets team gets a pass from Twin or Kmart they're like "Oh this is a pass to another pass so I shouldn't score". Princeton offense also relieson cutters so if Kmart was a good passer he need to find passer. He's an average passer at best. Which is ok for a big man.</div>

It's called looking for the high percentage shot. Besides, why would KMart force himself to make the assist to a cutter if the plays call for him to be the recipient?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">It's unexcusable the way Martin played against DRobb and TD. For all his bravado and "courage" he should atleast pose a formidale foe. Instead, TD and Drobb had their way with KMart and Kenyon had very poor games. Shaq had trouble, but he wasn't stopped. I expected Kmart to atleast play his heart out, and you and I both know he didn't.</div>

KMart did play his heart out. But if you're playing against those two guys WITHOUT ANY RELIEVERS, you'll be bound to be in foul trouble, injuries and mistakes.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">How are you being frugal when you want to overpay a player? Hmm? Martin isn't worth a max contract and you don't rebuild by paying a player way more than he's worth.</div>

If you think that he's not worth the max and I think he's worth it, there's no way that we should discuss this because it just wouldn't make sense for both of us.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">He's emotional when we're winning. He's hypes up the crowd when the Nets are up. But what happens when the Nets are down? He isn't hyping up the team, he isn't doing his chants, jumping around screaming. So this is a onesided leader.

RJ lead both ways for the team. When the team is down he stepped up his play. Even when they were losing he played his heart out. That's what I expect from Martin. To paly his heart out when we're down and when our true leader, Kidd is hurt. If he's not then don't give him a max contract.</div>

Well do you really want him to do those chants when you're losing? When I say emotional leader, he infuses toughness and energy to the team. You're not supposed to win every game. It's just a matter of what you do after the loss. Would you think that KMart will let the team suffer from mental anguish after losses? Of course not. He'll say something like they won't make any excuses for the loss and will just come back stronger for the next game. RJ is still not there. If you fail to notice, KMart does damage on both the offensive and defensive end when the game is on the line. Of course, there's not much a guy can do when you're losing by 20 points and a minute left on the clock.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think you got my point. Antawn Jamison is being paid max contract around 13 mil a year. Juwan Howard had a 100 million contract couple years back. They were considered good, but extremely overpaid players cause they couldn't carry the team. I believe if Kenyon was given a max contract like these players then he'd be considered the same.</div>

I got your point that's why I wouldn't want to comment on that. But for the record, Antawn and Howard lacks the toughness and the effect that KMart has. Besides, why are you always saying that KMart failed to carry the team. You think Kidd did all the carrying around during the 2 times they're in the championship? Kidd may be the brain of the team but KMart is the heart.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Get past Kmart's bravado and entertaining play and realize what he is. He's a showman and you can see his intensity.....but its superficial... When the Nets needed a 2nd star, it was not Kmart. He backed away. He didn't show up. When he goes up against good frontcourt, he's non-existant. Great players GET THEIRS. They don't back down. They EARN RESPECT. KG earned his respect against good front courts. Tim Duncan earned respect against good front courts. Dirk earned respect against good front courts. These are the type of max powerforwards there are. To think that Kmart has reached their level is nonsense. Until he does, he should take his 70 million dollar contract and play hard.</div>

Wow, you're one of the few who can say that. You really think he backed down from these guys?! Believe me, not having any kind of help in the frontline will make you suffer and during all his stay in NJ, he's the only one who knows how to play offense and defense in the low post. There's more to KMart than his "entertaining plays". He scores, rebounds, steal and block shots. While also being one of the top post defenders in the league. You're simply taking it against KMart that he's all alone down low while guarding 2-4 great big men at a time in the court. He'll guard the PF and also the C.

 

Nextlevelgame:
Well, I can clearly see that this back & forward debate is going no where, because Iam pretty sure we can go point-count point on every subect we have discussed about 100x over again. So I will just agree to disagree, And just wait to see what the future brings for the Nets in the upcoming week.

but this I cant let go:
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah Dr. J was gone once entered to the NBA. Buck and Rick never took the Nets to the Finals or deep into the playoffs. So I think Kidd gets a nod over them</div>.

So what if Dr. J was gone by the time the Nets joined the nba? He is still the most important payer in Nets history. He is still the all-time face of this franchise He led us to 2 aba titles & his place infront of kidd shouldnt even be considered a debate,no matter when he left.


Rick Barry was the very 1st face of this franchise, nobody even knew who the Nets were before Barry came to the squad, we had players like Doc Tart etc. He is really the one that put the Nets on the map because he was a superstar in the nba before he came to use, so for a big superstar to make the change from the NBA to basically a new-unknown ABA franchise was a big deal. So as far as"building" the Nets franchise & history Rick Barry is in front of kidd as well.

And to say Kidd has more status in Nets history then Buck Williams is overratting kidds accomplishments imo. I love & respect the fact kidd took us to the finals 2 years in a row. And all, but that still doesnt put him in front Buck Williams.

Buck Williams was our 1st really great draft pick during our NBA history. And his 7 straight years of averaging a double- double may never be matched again in Nets history. He set a legacy that every bigman in Nets history(past present, & future can only hope to obtain.).And kidd taking us to the finals in the water down east, doesnt even come close to building that type of legacy imo.

After he Steph era, Kidd clearly rebirth our franchise but you cant put him in front of players that built the franchise from the ground floor.

Thats like reaching the top of the Twin Towers,on foot, without starting at the 1st floor, it just cant happen. Those cats built this.