I hope that everyone who is in favor of an age limit in the NBA are also in favor on an age limit in every professional sport. I find it very odd that the issues pertaining to maturity, professionalism, ability, etc. are only brought up in basketball and football. There are kids all over the world playing sports for pay w/ no college education. What is the point of going to college for a year or two? Whether you leave school after receiving 100 college credits or you turn pro after high school you are still w/o a college degree. The thing is if you turned pro after high school you could have at least been compensated for the years you played rather than be broke for the years you attended school. With the rookie salary cap a rookie can only make a certain amount of money. So regardless of what he accomplished in college he can't make veterans money until his rookie contract is finished. LeBron James makes almost all of his money in endorsements. Last year he was only the fourth highest paid player on his team. Why go to college if you can't substantially increase your earning potential? Now there is a simple solution to stop these high school kids from declaring. NBA teams could just wait and draft them in the second round where their contracts would not be guaranteed. This would scare kids into thinking that they had to produce in college to be drafted in the first round. However, considering that the college player of the year was a senior and 8 high school players were drafted ahead of him, you can't blame a high schooler for doubting what a college experience would do for his career. Due to the fact that the past two rookie of the years and three out of last four first overall picks have been straight out of high school you can't blame NBA GM's for being excited about high school prospects. I was just shocked to see how many of these players were selected in the first round. To avoid this happening in future drafts, but still giving great high school players the opportunity to pursue their dreams out of high school, here is what you can do to solve the problems: Do not guarantee first round contracts until the player is 20 years old. If a team drafts a high school player in the first round and the team believes that the player is not equipped to handle being in the NBA they can release the player and not be responsible for any additional payments, provided that the player is under 20. Once the player turns 20 then the original contract would then become guaranteed. High school athletes would then have the added pressure of having to produce in their first couple years b/c they wouldn't have the security that a guaranteed contract gives players. The format for the contracts would still remain the same (team would have the option to release the players after the third season, player would have the option for restricted free agency after their fourth season) but a player having to work to make the team b/c the money isn't guaranteed could deter marginal high school prospects from throwing their names into the draft. They would probably wait until they were 20 before they declared. The top high school prospects would still declare b/c they would be confident that they would play their way into the guaranteed portion of their rookie contract (when they turned 20). I also think that it is wrong for a player to have the option to return to school once they declare for the draft. That takes the decision making out of the process. Once you declare you should forfeit your college eligibilty. Those players who are unsure whether they want to forego their remaining years of college are actually taking the spots of college seniors in predraft camps who have outside shots of getting drafted. The decision to leave school early (or not attend at all) is a major decision and it should be taken seriously. The college that the player plays for and the NBA are in limbo when a players declares w/o signing w/ an agent. The NBA would rather scout players they know are going to be available for the draft and college coaches would want to know who is going to be back for the following season. Declaring for the draft is a risk that a player with the ability has to be willing to take, regardless of the consequences. If they are really unsure than they should return to college. The NBA draft is really beginning to become irrelevant. Most of the prospects are no longer household names and the teams fans are unaware of the talents of the players their teams are drafting. Drafting for the future gives teams excuses for losing, which is a shame b/c every franchise has paying fans that are expecting their teams to do whatever it takes to win now. The NBA draft is endanger of losing credibility and it is important that they make the appropriate changes, otherwise the product (being the NBA) will undoubtedly suffer. What are some of your solutions to the problems that the NBA Draft has?
First off, I agree with a lot of your points. The legal problem for non-guaranteed first round contracts would probably be under Equal Protection / Age discrimination. (Unless you made all rookies non-guaranteed. The players association would probably never agree to that, either.) While I'm not exactly in favor of an age limit, Basketball and Football both suffer from the lack of minor leagues. Baseball has a very developed system and even Hockey has minor leagues. Instead, basketball players who aren't ready are left to either the NBDL, CBA, or Europe. Why not at least try to make one sure place where players can be called both up to the NBA AND back down to the "farm" teams? I think minor leagues could solve a lot of problems, and the major drawback may be the expense and difficulty in setting it up. Both the CBA and NBDL, and other independent teams, I believe, all allow their players to enter the NBA, but this ends their contracts. Then, they are usually given 10 day contracts in the NBA. But then, they are let go. This seems a bit strange. Why not have a bit more security for those players (especially the young ones?) Let them know that they at least have affiliations with a certain team and could have their contract purchased and brought up, then sent back down and put back on the old contract. They will also benefit from having more coaches and instead of sitting on the bench and playing only in practice, could be able to play and work on their games.
Minor leagues are most assuredly the way to roll. I wish there was some way of petitioning for them to be installed.
I guess an idea could be... in regards to rookie contracts, structure them so that teams have a greater chance of players being on their squad when they reach their potential, as in longer deals on a scaled basis. i.e. College seniors and juniors receive 2 year deals with a team option for a 3rd College sophomores and freshmen receive 3 year deals with a team option for a 4th High School seniors receive 4 year deals with a team option for a 5th A quick analysis: HS players wanting to throw their name into the draft to cash in on their "potential" are put in a more stable environment, and teams are rewarded for picking players who fulfill their potential. Also on that note, HS players who want to live off their potential will have to ensure teams looking at them that they are a good long-term selection, as they will be saddling them with an additional 2-years' salary. Conversely, college seniors/juniors are given incentive to refine their games as they are able to "cash in" (i.e. free agency) earlier than their HS counterparts. The mitigating factors are: teams are given incentives to select HS as they will be given more time to realize their potential on that team, however... when selecting HS players they add another 2-years guaranteed to team salary payments. At first glance you may say that HS players, with longer deals, are more likely to throw their names in the draft... but in the long-run it would be better advised to do a few years at college, and therefore be able to cash in on free agency quicker. Consider: Sebastian Telfair goes to college for three years, becomes one of the best point guards in the country, serves his three-year deal... receives a max contract. Do you think any of this year's HS players are six years away from a max deal? You may be inclined to think that free agency = greed... but I would say contracts given in free agency are more frequently accurate in measuring a player's value than the current rookie scale.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">To avoid this happening in future drafts, but still giving great high school players the opportunity to pursue their dreams out of high school, here is what you can do to solve the problems: Do not guarantee first round contracts until the player is 20 years old. If a team drafts a high school player in the first round and the team believes that the player is not equipped to handle being in the NBA they can release the player and not be responsible for any additional payments, provided that the player is under 20.</div> This wouldn't solve anything. First of all, a team doesn't pick a player in the first round and then give him no contract, ending up with a wasted draft pick. That's nonsense. And futher, high school players aren't supposed to contribute in their first years, they are supposed to develop. The only way to stop the prep overflow is to raise the age-limit to 20 or higher. Only if HS-stars are forced to attend college, they will do it. But I think the only one who benefits from this raised age-limit would be the NCAA. The NBA doesn't care if a player enters at 18, develops and starts to contribute at 21, or if he enters at 21 and contributes right away. But the NCAA has a great interest that players like Carmelo Anthony stay 3 or 4 years, with all the media attention. If I had to decide whether there's an age-limit at 18 or 21, I would say 21. Because I'm a huge college basketball fan. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post"> Consider: Sebastian Telfair goes to college for three years, becomes one of the best point guards in the country, serves his three-year deal... receives a max contract. Do you think any of this year's HS players are six years away from a max deal?</div> Do you think Darius Miles and DeShawn Stevenson will receive a max contract extension this year? Do you think Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler and Sagana Diop will receive one next year?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">This wouldn't solve anything. First of all, a team doesn't pick a player in the first round and then give him no contract, ending up with a wasted draft pick. That's nonsense. And futher, high school players aren't supposed to contribute in their first years, they are supposed to develop. The only way to stop the prep overflow is to raise the age-limit to 20 or higher. Only if HS-stars are forced to attend college, they will do it.</div> Ah, but the basis of my idea is that teams will shy away from less clear-cut HS prospects due to the nature of their contracts. If they do go for them, they will be given time to develop. When HS players see that unless they are a "sure thing" (well, as sure as a HS player can be - think LeBron, Amare) they will be borderline first/second round picks, they'll definitely stop throwing their hat in the ring. Do you think a team is going to sooner whack a 5-year deal on Travis Outlaw or 3-year deal on Jameer Nelson? Bottom line, HS will never be denied their right to enter the league, that I am pretty sure of - it would open a whole Pandora's box of court cases otherwise. So mechanisms need to be established such that borderline HS prospects don't declare for the sake of it - and teams don't pick them for the sake of it. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">But I think the only one who benefits from this raised age-limit would be the NCAA. The NBA doesn't care if a player enters at 18, develops and starts to contribute at 21, or if he enters at 21 and contributes right away. But the NCAA has a great interest that players like Carmelo Anthony stay 3 or 4 years, with all the media attention.</div> It's just not going to happen with the likes of Lebron, Amare, Dwight Howard coming in... guys who can contribute right off the bat. And there will be more of these players as time progresses. In 15-20 years time, I'd expect the nearly the entire first round to be comprised of HSers. They are getting stronger and have better fundamentals... but they are obviously few and far between at the moment. The timespan between the "next LBJ" will be far less than the "next MJ". <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you think Darius Miles and DeShawn Stevenson will receive a max contract extension this year? Do you think Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler and Sagana Diop will receive one next year?</div> With three years in college, I have no doubt that the likes of Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler would be approaching such a level. Were DeShawn Stevenson or Sagna Diop ever supposed to be NBA megastars? Poor example. But they would've been far better, and I'd argue could look forward to greater free agency payments at this given point than they have done with 6 years in the league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post">Ah, but the basis of my idea is that teams will shy away from less clear-cut HS prospects due to the nature of their contracts. If they do go for them, they will be given time to develop. When HS players see that unless they are a "sure thing" (well, as sure as a HS player can be - think LeBron, Amare) they will be borderline first/second round picks, they'll definitely stop throwing their hat in the ring. Do you think a team is going to sooner whack a 5-year deal on Travis Outlaw or 3-year deal on Jameer Nelson?</div> Well, I'd rather have Shaun Livingston for 5 years instead of Reece Gaines for 3 years. Most GM's would agree, I think. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post">Bottom line, HS will never be denied their right to enter the league, that I am pretty sure of - it would open a whole Pandora's box of court cases otherwise.</div> There's a precedent. "Clarett, Williams barred from draft" <div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post">It's just not going to happen with the likes of Lebron, Amare, Dwight Howard coming in... guys who can contribute right off the bat.</div> Don't tell me you think Dwight Howard will be able to contribute right away. The only guys who were able to do that are LeBron (and LeBron is LeBron, he's unique) and Amare (he was 20 when he entered the League). <div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post">The timespan between the "next LBJ" will be far less than the "next MJ".</div> Honestly I don't think we'll see someone like LeBron James again within the next 25 years. This guy is a once-in-a-lifetime type of talent. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post">With three years in college, I have no doubt that the likes of Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler would be approaching such a level.</div> So you are "pro age-limit at 20+"?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I'd rather have Shaun Livingston for 5 years instead of Reece Gaines for 3 years. Most GM's would agree, I think. </div> Yep, and most GMs would agree with you on that. You can't pass up Livingston's talent. It's guys like Travis Outlaw, Ndudi Ebi I'm talking about, bludging off guaranteed contracts... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't tell me you think Dwight Howard will be able to contribute right away. The only guys who were able to do that are LeBron (and LeBron is LeBron, he's unique) and Amare (he was 20 when he entered the League).</div> ...and while there's guys who can contribute (and there will be more, book it) there will never be an age limit. So we might as well accept it and work around it. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">So you are "pro age-limit at 20+"?</div> Essentially, yes. But the Players Association will never allow it, so I'm over it. What I am against, is high school players who won't contribute for 4 years and leaving their teams as soon as the opportunity arises. As I said, as long as there is the potential for guys like LeBron, Amare... there will not be an age limit, whether for better or worse.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post">...and while there's guys who can contribute (and there will be more, book it) there will never be an age limit. So we might as well accept it and work around it.</div> No, that's no reason. There are 18 yr olds like LeBron (even if it's one in a billion), who can enter the League and dominate right away. So what? HS-sophomore Greg Oden might be able to play in the NBA at 16, but he isn't allowed, because there's an age-limit that requires you to be 18 before you can enter the League. So what's the deal with prohibiting teenagers to enter? If the NBA says you need to be 20 to enter, prep stars have to wait.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">No, that's no reason. There are 18 yr olds like LeBron (even if it's one in a billion), who can enter the League and dominate right away. So what? HS-sophomore Greg Oden might be able to play in the NBA at 16, but he isn't allowed, because there's an age-limit that requires you to be 18 before you can enter the League. So what's the deal with prohibiting teenagers to enter? If the NBA says you need to be 20 to enter, prep stars have to wait.</div> And then when the next LeBron comes along, does he have to wait two years and possibly risk injury in college? Scaling rookie deals like RiverSpoon suggested means HS players still have that flexibility to declare if they want, sometimes there are outside reasons for this, but it also means teams have to be prepared to take on a long contract if they want to draft a HS player, and a HSer has to wait longer before getting off his rookie deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">And then when the next LeBron comes along, does he have to wait two years and possibly risk injury in college?</div> Actually how high is the risk of suffering a career ending injury in college? Sure, if you play you can always get injured, but "the next LeBron" has to play in high school, too. Maybe he should only play his freshman year and sit out the following three to prevent any injury. Man, it's getting a little out of hands, doesn't it? So if LeBron James (this version, not the next one) had to play two years of college basketball, where's the problem? He would've entered the League with even more hype, and played even better than now. And, on his way to the pros, he would have made college basketball way more popular, and I mean world wide.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">So if LeBron James (this version, not the next one) had to play two years of college basketball, where's the problem? He would've entered the League with even more hype, and played even better than now. And, on his way to the pros, he would have made college basketball way more popular, and I mean world wide.</div> You're making assumptions here. If a guy like LeBron, who is genuinely ready for NBA basketball straight out of HS, comes along, I don't think he should be forced to go to college to make the NBA just because a lot of HS kids declare when they're not ready. What if his grades aren't up to scratch, and he is forced to go to CC and put himself back in terms of making it to the NBA? I think you shouldn't have an age limit because you can't throw everyone under the same blanket, instead it should just be a bigger risk for teams to take a HSer, which is what the contract structuring does.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">If a guy like LeBron, who is genuinely ready for NBA basketball straight out of HS, comes along, I don't think he should be forced to go to college to make the NBA just because a lot of HS kids declare when they're not ready.</div> Hmm, why shouldn't a guy like LeBron enter the League as a HS junior or sophomore? He was probably ready for the NBA at 16-17 yrs of age. So if he is ready, why couldn't he enter? Because there is an age-limit that prevents him from doing it. That are the rules, period.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">Hmm, why shouldn't a guy like LeBron enter the League as a HS junior or sophomore? He was probably ready for the NBA at 16-17 yrs of age. So if he is ready, why couldn't he enter? Because there is an age-limit that prevents him from doing it. That are the rules, period.</div> There is, IMO, a bigger gap in physical and mental maturity between the ages of 16 and 18, than 18 and 20. LeBron may have been physically ready to play NBA at age 16, but I very much doubt he was ready mentally. And yes it is true that many players aren't ready mentally at 18, but there are many that are, which isn't the case at 16. As a HS senior, most of these players are learning to deal with the hype surrounding them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">This wouldn't solve anything. First of all, a team doesn't pick a player in the first round and then give him no contract, ending up with a wasted draft pick. That's nonsense. And futher, high school players aren't supposed to contribute in their first years, they are supposed to develop. The only way to stop the prep overflow is to raise the age-limit to 20 or higher. Only if HS-stars are forced to attend college, they will do it. </div> I didn't say not give them a contract. I said do not guarantee payment until after the player turns 20. He would still get the same amount of money that he would normally receive as a high school draftee but in the event that ownership feels as though they made a mistake w/ their draft pick, or are in need of salary relief, they can release the high school player and not be burdened w/ the remaining years on that players contract (provided he was under the age of 20). After he would turn 20 the franchise could not release the player unelss they were willing to absorb the remaining years on his original rookie contract. So if a player like Travis Outlaw, Ndubi Ebi (sp?), and James Perkins were not developing as expected they could be released w/o the team having to pay the remaining years on their contract (I'm assuming that they are under the age of 20). If management was happy w/ their progress they would continue to pay the player before and after their contract would become guaranteed (when they turned 20). Nothing would change in terms of how much money the high school players make. Wherever you are drafted you would be slated to make that draft selection's money. However, this plan would make players who were unsure of their NBA talent think twice about putting their name in the draft b/c if they bombed out their first two seasons they could be released w/o receiving the one-three years left on their original contract. If you think that first round draft picks always are given an opportunity just look at Sasha Pavlovic. He was drafted 19th by the Jazz last season and started 14 games for a playoff contending team. He was then put up for the expansion draft and selected by the Bobcats only to be traded to the Cavaliers. What did Utah get out of the deal? Nothing. Now imagine how Boston will feel about Perkins if he is unable to find minutes on this year team, knowing that he has years of guaranteed money ahead of him. Again, contracts remain the same w/ my proposal. The team just has an option to terminate the contract before the player turns 20 (sort of like the NFL). Once he turns 20 the original contract becomes guaranteed. High school and young european draftees would then have to earn their paycheck their first couple of years. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, I agree with a lot of your points. The legal problem for non-guaranteed first round contracts would probably be under Equal Protection / Age discrimination. (Unless you made all rookies non-guaranteed. The players association would probably never agree to that, either.)</div> You are right, but I don't see any other alternative.
Okay, let's say Sebastain Telfair had to go to Louisville for two years before turning pro. As you probably know, one of his friends was shot earlier in the year. What if his mother gets shot in that time period? Or the rest of his family? If he had been allowed to enter the NBA, his family would have been gone from that neighborhood. You can't deny anybody a living. I believe the only real option is a developmental league. Now, you might think that once teams have a minor league, they'll just draft a whole bunch of high school kids and stash them away, but with three year contracts, it's a long-shot that kid would resign with the team unless they're getting playing time before the contract is up or unless the team ponies up some major cash. The only major change would be that more NBA teams would have ready-to-contribute players instead of wasting bench spots on young or crappy players. A league like that would also allow teams to just throw bad contracts down to the minors and let them run out there, or hope they shape up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">There is, IMO, a bigger gap in physical and mental maturity between the ages of 16 and 18, than 18 and 20. LeBron may have been physically ready to play NBA at age 16, but I very much doubt he was ready mentally.</div> Now it's you who's making assumptions. It doesn't matter whether he's physically or mentally ready for the Big L in your mind or not. LeBron was the best high school player in the United States as a junior, that's a fact. He was better than Carmelo Anthony, better than Chris Bosh, even better than Amare Stoudemire who made the jump and earned Rookie Of The Year honors. So if LeBron is better than all of these, why shouldn't he be allowed to enter as a HS junior? Answer that question, please.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bender:</div><div class="quote_post">Now it's you who's making assumptions. It doesn't matter whether he's physically or mentally ready for the Big L in your mind or not. LeBron was the best high school player in the United States as a junior, that's a fact. He was better than Carmelo Anthony, better than Chris Bosh, even better than Amare Stoudemire who made the jump and earned Rookie Of The Year honors. So if LeBron is better than all of these, why shouldn't he be allowed to enter as a HS junior? Answer that question, please.</div> I can't answer that, nobody can. At the age of 18 you are legally an adult in most countries, and it's generally recognised as the age where you go from being a kid into the adult world. Also, the league can't force players to even go to college, but what sort of example would it set if it let players cut their highschooling short?
