The thread originated last year when KMart asked for the maximum extension under CBA rules. The result was one of the best threads JBB has seen. I am hoping olskool, sunsfan, and some of the original people involved in this first thread post in this new one, as well as the new members of JBB since then. The original thread is here http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...highlight=Kmart The question this thread will discuss is: Is Kenyon Martin worth worth a maximum extension? Things to consider: KMart's role in the Nets success Nets organization Other players Statistics
When I posted in that thread, I said that he's worth CLOSE to the max but his stocks are increasing. Now, his stocks have increased to being a player worth the max. I know he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as KG or TD but come on, where else can you find and emotional leader who's well on his way to a 20/10 season. He's a good C and a backup PF away from doing so. He's an all-star now. He can do damage on both ends on the floor. If Kidd is the brain, KMart is the heart of the team. It looks like the Nets has to choose between the two and as much as I love Kidd, we have to look into the future and a team built around young guys like KMart and Jefferson is scary. Teams are basically waiting to offer him the max and for good reason. He brings in success and fans. You won't see him slack off. You'll see him guard 5 guys in a SINGLE PLAY and even make the block shot while running a quarter of a court to "I thought I was open" Armstrong. He'll make a winning block while grabbing the ball in mid air to seal the win. He wouldn't even back down when Shaq is throwing those elbows during the Finals. He's not intimidated with big names like KG and TD. While intimidating fugazys in the process. He'll protect his teammates. He's an enforcer who also contributes. I could go on and on. But he's a max player that will continue to stay that way for years to come.
Last year, I said that KMart wasn't worthy of the max. I said he was worth $65-$70 million. That has changed. He is now to the point where a max deal is not only conceivable, but probable. He is an All Star now. Every year he has gotten better. His averages of 16.7/9.5 are good. There will be arguement that he hasn't averaged 20/10 yet, so he shouldn't get the max. But in the Nets system, its hard to have a 20 ppg scorer, as Kidd and the Nets run the break a lot, so its more of a "who's open" than a set offense. When the Nets do run their offense, KMart is the one who really runs the half court offense. It all starts with him. He is their best half court option. Jefferson's improved shot helps as well, as it gives the Nets another option. But the Nets don't thrive in a half court set, so they need someone who can score from there, which is what Martin can do. He will get max or near max money.
My opinion really hasn't changed about K-mart, he deserves a big long deal and is a very passionate player who is the heart and sole of the Nets but he needs to prove he can be the go to guy late in games and dominate playoff series. Maybe next year Ig he keeps in improving and puts up the numbers he will be considered but right now there's nothing to suggest he deserves the max. There are only the fair few who do Some many players get huge contracts these days It's getting quite stupid, even Erick Dampier is wanting 10 million this summer. However just because he doesn't deserve the max doesn't mean he won't get it. The Atlanta Hawks will offer him alot more than what alot of other teams are willing to do. That orginal Martin topic was a prime example why having Olskool around was so much more fun.
I think he is very close to being a max contract player. He's still young and he's already an all star. He's still getting better on both ends of the court and he might be arguably a top 5 eastern power forward I think. Granted playing with Kidd has helped him become as good as he is, he's still a fantastic player. I think he is close to getting the max contract, but, might not be quite there just yet.
It depends what you base a max deal on. At the moment, you would be giving one on potential. He's not worth a maximum deal yet IMO, but he could very well be in a couple of seasons. New Jersey could sign him to that max deal now and reap the benefits down the line, or they can watch another team sign him to the max and then in a couple of years think 'Hey, he's worth the max, why didn't we see that?' The NBA is structured very much towards the future. Players get big deals based on what teams expect them to do in the future (Rashard Lewis being a good example of this). The Nets have to sit down and weigh up how good a player they think he will become. The structure of NJ's offense is a very valid point too, and at the end of the day it's NJ's management, coaching and playing staff that is going to have the best idea of his value. Then again, Mr Ratner could disregard all of this.
wow...great topic vintage! interesting looking back at that thread...k-marts rebounding numbers did indeed go up, and id say this year he really showed an improvment to his game offensivly. he's also stepped up as a great defender. do i think he's now worth the max? no way...but he's gonna get it from someone because once again agents are ruining the sport. if k-mart had any sense at all, he'd sign a new contract with the nets, for a truck load more money then he's making now, but not even close to the max, and he'd still be making a ridiculous amount of money, and playing for a winning team, along side a player like kidd, who only helps his game. agents piss me off
Yea, I definitely think he'd be smart to stay with New Jersey. He'd be staying on a winning team playing along Jason Kidd, who, as we have all seen, improves everyone around him. I think it'd be a smart choice, cause, he has to know that they'll eventually give him that max contract somewhere down the line.
Here's the thing: Raef LaFrentz: 65 million over 6 years. Odom received a $60 million + over 6 years contract. However, that cannot be used for comparison to Martin. The reason is because Odom has questions about him. Mainly dealing with off the court issues. So Odom, a talented player, was given $60 + million/6 years with off the court legal issues and still not showing he was a consistent player. Yes, he has shown to work past that this year, but at the time of his contract, he hadn't. So if Odom can get that kind of money with major questions arising about him, Martin will get more..... Antawn Jamison- He was maxed out. Martin brings better defense to the table. Sure, Jamison can score better, but he is maxed out and is not a difference maker. Martin has proven to be a difference maker for the Nets. The Nets are clearly a better team with him. Jamison....you can't say the same thing for. Id rather max out Martin than Jamison. Jalen Rose is maxed out. Would you rather have Rose or Martin? Toronto fans, don't even bother replying. The point is, Martin has a legit case to make an arguement for recieving the max. Is he worthy of it? I don't know. In a perfect world, no. But the NBA isn't that. Owners continue to overspend. As a result, semi-stars can often recieve maximum contracts. And by that, Martin should recieve the max. The question is as to whether or not the Nets can afford to.
With KMart, there's no way to go but up. A lot of people said that he'll never be an All-Star. Now you know better. It's also pretty hard to take over play off series when he's the only big guy who's capable of playing and defending the post. He faced Shaq, TD and Admiral, Sheed and Big Ben almost by himself.
I dont wanna get too much into this. I've already made plenty of points about kenyon Martin. All I'll say is that Raef Lafrenz shouldnt be determining the market on Kmart. He's obviously not worth close to what he's being paid. one might argue that Lamar Odom is being over paid but still, he is a better and more versatile player than martin and Martin should not be paid as much. Elton Brand is not being paid as much Kenyon wanted last year and there isn't a GM in the league who would be dumb enough to choose KMart over Brand (.....mmmmaybe danny ainge.) I dont want to get in a big discussion with any nitwits who are convinced Martin is better than either of those players. I made a few posts in the thread vintage linked to which I feel explain beyond any reasonable doubt why that is not the case. I'll dig em up if absolutly nessecary but again I dont want to get into a big thing here. Vintage! good to hear from you again! check your PM's! and what the heck happened to your Bulls. last year you GAURENTEED they'd make the playoffs and that Eddy Curry would emerge as the next superstar center! sorry! had to get in one cheap shot. you had me convinced Ill tell ya that
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont wanna get too much into this. I've already made plenty of points about kenyon Martin. All I'll say is that Raef Lafrenz shouldnt be determining the market on Kmart. He's obviously not worth close to what he's being paid. one might argue that Lamar Odom is being over paid but still, he is a better and more versatile player than martin and Martin should not be paid as much. Elton Brand is not being paid as much Kenyon wanted last year and there isn't a GM in the league who would be dumb enough to choose KMart over Brand (.....mmmmaybe danny ainge.) I dont want to get in a big discussion with any nitwits who are convinced Martin is better than either of those players. I made a few posts in the thread vintage linked to which I feel explain beyond any reasonable doubt why that is not the case. I'll dig em up if absolutly nessecary but again I dont want to get into a big thing here. </div> But thats what happens. Agents/teams/players look at other players salaries in order to dictate the market. Thats how the NBA does it. You might not agree with it, but this is a business. When MJ asked for $30+million a season for 2 years, he looked at the market, knew he was the best player, and deserved to be paid like the best. Thats how it works. It has its drawbacks though. When a player like LaFrentz is overpaid, it hurts other teams in dealing with their FA's. Dampier is asking for 10 million a season. Now, the only time he has ever played well has been in contract seasons. But KMart has shown to be the better player in his short career. KMart is worth more money than Dampier. And since the league is starved for centers, someone will pay Dampier more than he's worth. How can you argue that KMart shouldn't get more money. And the fact is a lot has changed since the last debate. KMart has improved. He has done better on the boards, and with his shooting. He continues to improve and prove he wants to continue to improve. As a result, Id be less hesitant to hand him the max than I would Jamison(if he was a FA), or Dampier. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Vintage! good to hear from you again! check your PM's! and what the heck happened to your Bulls. last year you GAURENTEED they'd make the playoffs and that Eddy Curry would emerge as the next superstar center! sorry! had to get in one cheap shot. you had me convinced Ill tell ya that</div> Show me where I said that...........
I honestly don't know if KMart is worth the maximum contract or not. Sure, he's an All-Star... Everyone would want him on their team, and he's obviously one of the most intense players in the game, JKidd or no JKidd... Here's my question about him... You know how himself, Richard Jefferson, and even Kerry Kittles benefit alot from having the best PG in the game of basketball running their offense... Well, take Jason away. Their numbers go down, but does their level of play also dramatically decrease as well? Lamar Odom had the problems off the court, but was proven to be a quality player with a lack of any sort of good PG year by year, excluding his last year as a Clipper with Andre Miller. Saying that he deserves a maxed out contract just because someone like 'Raef Lafrentz' got lucky and got the max is wrong. People who deserve the maximum are people like Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, ect. Superstars. Are these 'max' numbers in your opinion? I mean, the guy turns 27 in December, so its not like he's 'that' young anymore to say "he's gonna be good in a few years...". PPG 16.7 RPG 9.5 APG 2.5 SPG 1.4 BPG 1.3 ... And that is with Jason Kidd, the ultimate playmaker. A power forward's best friend... I'm sorry, KMart fans... Those are some good numbers, but consider how much money he'd be getting. He'd be overpaid.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bled11Harr3:</div><div class="quote_post"> Lamar Odom had the problems off the court, but was proven to be a quality player with a lack of any sort of good PG year by year, excluding his last year as a Clipper with Andre Miller. </div> You missed the point. Lamar had off the court problems AND STILL GOT A LARGE CONTRACT. HE HADN'T EVEN PROVEN TO BE A CONSISTANT PLAYER YET AT THAT POINT. Meaning, KMart will get above that, most likely. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Saying that he deserves a maxed out contract just because someone like 'Raef Lafrentz' got lucky and got the max is wrong. People who deserve the maximum are people like Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, ect. Superstars. </div> You obviously failed to read my post. LaFrentz didn't get the max? Where did I say that? I said he got a $60+ million over 6 years contract. Thats not the max. Second. I also clearly stated that agents/teams/players use other player contracts as starting basis in negotiations for new contracts. Meaning, LaFrentz's contract will come into play in determing how much to fork up for Martin. Its not a tough concept to understand, really. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Are these 'max' numbers in your opinion? I mean, the guy turns 27 in December, so its not like he's 'that' young anymore to say "he's gonna be good in a few years...". PPG 16.7 RPG 9.5 APG 2.5 SPG 1.4 BPG 1.3 </div> LaFrentz didn't average anything near that. If you think KMart is going to accept anything less than LaFrentz, you are mistaken. He's 26 as of right now. Players can't continue to improve? Players can continue to improve even in their 30's. Its not far-fetched to say that Martin won't continue to improve. He's averaging 17/10. Nowadays, thats borderline of a max contract. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> ... And that is with Jason Kidd, the ultimate playmaker. A power forward's best friend... I'm sorry, KMart fans... Those are some good numbers, but consider how much money he'd be getting. He'd be overpaid.</div> No one is saying he wouldn't be overpaid. Will KMart be overpaid? Yes. But guess what, thats how the NBA works. And because of that, I am willing to bet Martin gets near max to max money.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">You missed the point. Lamar had off the court problems AND STILL GOT A LARGE CONTRACT. HE HADN'T EVEN PROVEN TO BE A CONSISTANT PLAYER YET AT THAT POINT. Meaning, KMart will get above that, most likely. You obviously failed to read my post. LaFrentz didn't get the max? Where did I say that? I said he got a $60+ million over 6 years contract. Thats not the max. Second. I also clearly stated that agents/teams/players use other player contracts as starting basis in negotiations for new contracts. Meaning, LaFrentz's contract will come into play in determing how much to fork up for Martin. Its not a tough concept to understand, really. LaFrentz didn't average anything near that. If you think KMart is going to accept anything less than LaFrentz, you are mistaken. He's 26 as of right now. Players can't continue to improve? Players can continue to improve even in their 30's. Its not far-fetched to say that Martin won't continue to improve. He's averaging 17/10. Nowadays, thats borderline of a max contract. No one is saying he wouldn't be overpaid. Will KMart be overpaid? Yes. But guess what, thats how the NBA works. And because of that, I am willing to bet Martin gets near max to max money.</div> So what! I don't care if Odom got a large contract. He doesn't deserve it either. I'm not putting my money on a stubborn 27 year old who has had problems with inconsistency. Saying that its OK for Kmart to get a maxxed out contract when being inconsistent and using a reason like 'off court problems' to say its not OK for Odom is ridiculous (don't know if you said that, but I believe I saw that here). When did I say that I was replying to your post? BTW-When I said 'maxxed out', I mean he got a big pay off. I don't know the max for particular players, because it has obviously gotten pretty complicated. Contractual negotiations shouldn't be held over 'other players contracts'. I don't know if thats really how it goes on, but if it is, the GMs are idiots. What I'm trying to tell you is that 17/10 should not, by any means, get you a HUGE contract with TONS of money. So whether you want to show me oversized contracts like Allen Houston, Raef Lafrentz, Keith Van Horn, ect., you won't change my mind about Kenyon Martin not being worthy of a 'maxxed' out status. He's not KG or Tim Duncan (never will be) and he doesn't deserve the money they make. You can't tell me he does...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bled11Harr3:</div><div class="quote_post">So whether you want to show me oversized contracts like Allen Houston, Raef Lafrentz, Keith Van Horn, ect., you won't change my mind about Kenyon Martin not being worthy of a 'maxxed' out status. He's not KG or Tim Duncan (never will be) and he doesn't deserve the money they make. You can't tell me he does...</div> It's not about whether he deserves it, which he doesn't, it's about whether or not he will get it. And the bottom line is, as Vintage said, agents will use other players as a pre-requisite for starting contract negotiations. What will be interesting is how New Jersey handle it all - just one of the many subplots of what should be an exciting off-season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bled11Harr3:</div><div class="quote_post">So what! I don't care if Odom got a large contract. He doesn't deserve it either. I'm not putting my money on a stubborn 27 year old who has had problems with inconsistency. Saying that its OK for Kmart to get a maxxed out contract when being inconsistent and using a reason like 'off court problems' to say its not OK for Odom is ridiculous (don't know if you said that, but I believe I saw that here). </div> It doesn't matter if he deserves it or not. Thats not what the thread is asking. Its asking if you think he will get it. You clearly don't know how to interpet what I type, so I will say it as simple as I can.... If Odom got lots and lots of money....even though he hadn't proven to be a consistent player and did naughty things, then Martin will probably get more because he doesn't do the same naughty things and is more consistent.... ok? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> BTW-When I said 'maxxed out', I mean he got a big pay off. I don't know the max for particular players, because it has obviously gotten pretty complicated. Contractual negotiations shouldn't be held over 'other players contracts'. I don't know if thats really how it goes on, but if it is, the GMs are idiots. </div> Maxed out means given the maximum amount of money under the CBA. Not the Continental Basketball Association, but the Collective Bargaining Agreement.....the rules thingy. You are acting like the thought of GMs comparing players in dealing with contract negotiations is a new concept. This has been done for years and years, decades and decades. And no, its not always a bad thing. GMs aren't dumb for doing it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> What I'm trying to tell you is that 17/10 should not, by any means, get you a HUGE contract with TONS of money. So whether you want to show me oversized contracts like Allen Houston, Raef Lafrentz, Keith Van Horn, ect., you won't change my mind about Kenyon Martin not being worthy of a 'maxxed' out status. He's not KG or Tim Duncan (never will be) and he doesn't deserve the money they make. You can't tell me he does...</div> I didn't say he wouldn't be overpaid, which the max is around $87 million for 6 seasons). I said he is likely to get it. I said I'd rather give him the max than Antawn Jamison. Its really not that difficult to comprehend. Players get contracts based of their performances and players of similar caliber/stats. Every team does it. Every league does it.
Ahh ok... Well, even though I never particularly attacked your argument, I can see where you're coming from. The NBA GMs are idiots though for giving players like Kenyon Martin the maximum they can give a player, because he isn't worth it. He will never win you a championship and isn't superstar caliber. In my mand, only people like Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan deserve maxed out contracts. Well, lets see if we could solve it this way. What would he be making per year? I'm not sure what the 'max' is for his group.
