I think last year we saw the overpaying trend take a turn in a different direction. Elton Brand and Stephen Jackson come to mind. Both were expecting more money than they received and I think we will see the same thing this year in the free agent market. Both Dampier and K-Mart are commodities, but I don't think either are worthy of their monetary demands. Even if they are gaging the market to determine their value, the market is inflated across the board, and the GMs and owners around the league won't be as willing to throw money at these players anymore. They have seen these mistakes set a franchise back 4 or 5 years and they don't want to be stuck paying a player in decline top dollar 7 years down the line. I think K-Mart is a better bargain than Dampier. I'm still skeptical Dampier only played hard because he was in a contract year. Prior to last season, he didn't do much of anything for the Warriors and I can see him losing his motivation after signing a big deal. However, I think max deals should be reserved for franchise players on your team. Although K-Mart has improved, he is far from being considered a franchise player. He's a good role player and has a strong fan base, but it stops there. I think K-Mart is worth closer to PJ Brown type money at $8M a season. He's a solid player, but nothing special. K-Mart does not have the offensive games to warrant being maxed out. He's a flashy defensive player and brings a lot of energy to a team, but you can't count on him in the clutch. Any more than $8M is a stretch for K-Mart and is going to hurt a team in the long run. Not only are his skills limited, he has character issues, and the way he plays health will be a major factor in the next two or three years for K-Mart. If you look at the top 20 highest salaries you can see the amount of mistakes made by overpaying for players. - Dikembe Mutombo - Allan Houston - Damon Stoudemire - Anfernee Hardaway - Antoine Walker - Michael Finley - Keith Van Horn - SAR - Big Z - Jalen Rose - Grant Hill These players were all paid based on "future potential," however none of these players came close to fulfilling it and they have been traded around the league, injured year after year, or playing for non-contenders.
I agree, Shapecity makes a great point. Teams have been giving out max dollars way too easy in the past, and now it seems like everyone feels they deserve it. The most I'd pay for a guy like Martin would be $10M, and if any other team offers him more than that I'd let him walk. Like Shapecity said signing a bad contract sets teams back for years, and it just isn't worth the risk. The only players who deserve MAX dollars are proven SUPERSTARS, not players who put up decent numbers.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phreeze:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree, Shapecity makes a great point. Teams have been giving out max dollars way too easy in the past, and now it seems like everyone feels they deserve it. The most I'd pay for a guy like Martin would be $10M, and if any other team offers him more than that I'd let him walk. Like Shapecity said signing a bad contract sets teams back for years, and it just isn't worth the risk. The only players who deserve MAX dollars are proven SUPERSTARS, not players who put up decent numbers.</div> Yup. Thats right and thats what I've been trying to say in my previous 3 posts on this thread. Decent numbers don't earn you max contracts. Superstar numbers do that. The topic is entitled 'Kenyon Martin and the Max, Part 2'. Thats what this is about, right? Kenyon Martin didn't deserve the max last year, and again, he still doesn't deserve it this year. I'd think that GMs would be getting smart after seeing failures like Stoudamire and Van Horn... But apparently, its said here that they aren't. :-/
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I think K-Mart is a better bargain than Dampier. I'm still skeptical Dampier only played hard because he was in a contract year. Prior to last season, he didn't do much of anything for the Warriors and I can see him losing his motivation after signing a big deal.</div> I agree. Besides, Dampier put up great numbers coz of the absence of Murphy and Foyle. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">However, I think max deals should be reserved for franchise players on your team. Although K-Mart has improved, he is far from being considered a franchise player. He's a good role player and has a strong fan base, but it stops there.</div> Why would he be not considered a franchise player? When you think of the Nets, you'll think of the energy, the passion, the fastbreaks, the defense etc. When you think of all those things, you think of KMart. Sure this is Kidd's team. But is he the only one leading the team? So Kidd's the only leader of the team? So being the team's top rebounder, top defender and probably option in the post, and maybe the top finisher and scorer alongside RJ be considered as only a role player? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I think K-Mart is worth closer to PJ Brown type money at $8M a season. He's a solid player, but nothing special. K-Mart does not have the offensive games to warrant being maxed out. He's a flashy defensive player and brings a lot of energy to a team, but you can't count on him in the clutch. Any more than $8M is a stretch for K-Mart and is going to hurt a team in the long run. Not only are his skills limited, he has character issues, and the way he plays health will be a major factor in the next two or three years for K-Mart.</div> Well first of all, the Nets doesn't have the offensive sets to warrant someone to score more than 20ppg. No one in the team should average more than 20ppg. That's one of the best things about NJ. Some nights, Kidd will score 20 plus. Some nights it will be KMart and some nights it will be RJ. Then the others will score 10-20 points each. That's how the team goes so it's pretty unfair to take that against KMart. Can't count on him on the clutch? Have you seen his defensive stops to preserve the win for them? The best example being his block against Miami? Besides, you know very well that Kidd will have the ball on the offensive end. Limited skills? He has a computed efficiency of 20.28. So what do you call guys like Baron Davis or Ben Wallace? Less than limited skills? What I'm trying to say is KMart gives you 5 stats on the board. You can say that he's not a 20/10 guy to warrant him a max but he is a 16.7/9.50/2.5/1.46/1.26 guy. He has character issues? He HAD character issues. That's one of the best things. How he matured. Sure he had some close calls or fights this year but it goes with the job of being the team's enforcer. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">If you look at the top 20 highest salaries you can see the amount of mistakes made by overpaying for players. - Dikembe Mutombo - Allan Houston - Damon Stoudemire - Anfernee Hardaway - Antoine Walker - Michael Finley - Keith Van Horn - SAR - Big Z - Jalen Rose - Grant Hill These players were all paid based on "future potential," however none of these players came close to fulfilling it and they have been traded around the league, injured year after year, or playing for non-contenders.</div> Well that's the NBA for you. You make risks. If you don't, then you'll never get a superstar.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post"> Why would he be not considered a franchise player? </div> I think you answered your own question, the franchise player for the Nets has and is Jason Kidd. Kenyon Martin benefits from having Kidd on the court and not having to be a dominant post presence. K-Mart is a great leaper and athlete, but when it comes down to being able to create offense or get teammates involved in the offense he fails. Case in point against the Spurs in the NBA Finals a year ago. He put up some nice stats, but when it came down the stretch of the game and the Nets tried to go to him in the post he got rejected over and over again. As K-Mart ages he's not going to have the explosiveness he has now and he won't have the fundamental game to fall back on. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well first of all, the Nets doesn't have the offensive sets to warrant someone to score more than 20ppg. No one in the team should average more than 20ppg. That's one of the best things about NJ. Some nights, Kidd will score 20 plus. Some nights it will be KMart and some nights it will be RJ. Then the others will score 10-20 points each. That's how the team goes so it's pretty unfair to take that against KMart. Can't count on him on the clutch? Have you seen his defensive stops to preserve the win for them? The best example being his block against Miami? Besides, you know very well that Kidd will have the ball on the offensive end. </div> Not scoring 20ppg, is that a product of the Nets offense or a product of K-Mart's inconsistency on offense? The fact the Nets need Jason Kidd to handle the ball on offense at the end proves my point. You can't count on K-Mart down the stretch on offense. I won't knock his ability to defend, but he's a liability at the other end of the court. And to me that makes him not worthy of being considered a franchise player, a superstar, or worth a max contract. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post"> Limited skills? He has a computed efficiency of 20.28. So what do you call guys like Baron Davis or Ben Wallace? Less than limited skills? </div> I'm glad you brought up Ben Wallace he's a perfect example of a role player and K-Mart falls into a similar category. Both are great defenders, but you cannot build a team around either player. They are in the right system and are good at what they do, but you cannot ask either K-Mart or Ben Wallace to carry you offensively down the stretch of games. Ben Wallace is making about $6M a year, underpaid, but still he's not worth the max contract either, just like K-Mart isn't. I'm not sure why you referenced Baron Davis. Baron has far more skill then K-Mart. He took a lot of bad shots, but his job was to shoot the ball in the Hornets offense. Baron Davis has also had a career marred by injuries. Despite the praise I have for Baron Davis, I wouldn't give him a max deal either. He's not a superstar and neither is K-Mart. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post"> He has character issues? He HAD character issues. That's one of the best things. How he matured. Sure he had some close calls or fights this year but it goes with the job of being the team's enforcer.</div> Making fun of Alonzo Mourning's kidney problems is improvement? Zo is one of the most respected players in the game. He was getting on K-Mart and RJ for not giving maximum effort during practice. A mature person would take the constructive criticism from a respected veteran and answer his call. K-Mart decided to crack a joke about Zo's kidney instead. Real mature. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well that's the NBA for you. You make risks. If you don't, then you'll never get a superstar.</div> I agree taking risks is part of the game, but the smart GM's take the smart risks. Once again K-Mart is not a superstar.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I think you answered your own question, the franchise player for the Nets has and is Jason Kidd. Kenyon Martin benefits from having Kidd on the court and not having to be a dominant post presence. K-Mart is a great leaper and athlete, but when it comes down to being able to create offense or get teammates involved in the offense he fails. Case in point against the Spurs in the NBA Finals a year ago. He put up some nice stats, but when it came down the stretch of the game and the Nets tried to go to him in the post he got rejected over and over again. As K-Mart ages he's not going to have the explosiveness he has now and he won't have the fundamental game to fall back on.</div> Why is everybody dissing KMart just because he's playing alongside Kidd? KMart puts up great stats when Kidd isn't around. KMart benefits from having Kidd in the same way the Kidd benefits from having KMart. How did he fail to get his teammates involved in the offense? He's an impt part of the offense that they're running. Will Kittles or RJ be open on the other side of the court if not for the Nets perfect passing that he started on the post? Will Kidd be open to drive and dish without a screen from him? Will Kidd be able to run the fastbreak as easier as it is without his rebounds/blocks/steals? It's pretty unfair for him if you take the Spurs series against him. They won two games with him the only defensive presence on the post against the Admiral and TD. Not a few guys can say that. Besides, it is hard to post up against TD then when you do get free, Admiral will be there waiting to block your shot because Twin didn't put enough body on him. Besides when you're in foul trouble because of defending the two, it will creat some sort of toll on you. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Not scoring 20ppg, is that a product of the Nets offense or a product of K-Mart's inconsistency on offense?</div> Hey, scoring close to 17 ppg while only taking close to 14 shots per game is pretty good for me. Make him shoot 3-5 shots more and you'll get your 20ppg. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">The fact the Nets need Jason Kidd to handle the ball on offense at the end proves my point. You can't count on K-Mart down the stretch on offense. I won't knock his ability to defend, but he's a liability at the other end of the court. And to me that makes him not worthy of being considered a franchise player, a superstar, or worth a max contract.</div> Jason Kidd will make the winning shot or winning assist. Of course he'll get the ball. He'll get it due to the fact that he's done it all throughout his career. Do you really want your PF to start the play at the clutch? Of course the PG will have it first. It's his job to create opportunities for himself or for the others to win the game. More often than not, he was able to create an opportunity for himself. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm glad you brought up Ben Wallace he's a perfect example of a role player and K-Mart falls into a similar category. Both are great defenders, but you cannot build a team around either player. They are in the right system and are good at what they do, but you cannot ask either K-Mart or Ben Wallace to carry you offensively down the stretch of games. Ben Wallace is making about $6M a year, underpaid, but still he's not worth the max contract either, just like K-Mart isn't.</div> I didn't say to look at the efficiency to say if he's worth the max or not. I just stated it coz you said that KMart has limited skills. Which as the efficiency ratings shows, he has a wide array of skills both on the offensive and defensive end. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure why you referenced Baron Davis. Baron has far more skill then K-Mart. He took a lot of bad shots, but his job was to shoot the ball in the Hornets offense. Baron Davis has also had a career marred by injuries. Despite the praise I have for Baron Davis, I wouldn't give him a max deal either. He's not a superstar and neither is K-Mart. </div> Again, I referenced him to make a point about you saying that KMart has limited skills. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Making fun of Alonzo Mourning's kidney problems is improvement? Zo is one of the most respected players in the game. He was getting on K-Mart and RJ for not giving maximum effort during practice. A mature person would take the constructive criticism from a respected veteran and answer his call. K-Mart decided to crack a joke about Zo's kidney instead. Real mature. </div> You have to look before and after that. Let's see. Before: KMart would've probably gotten into a fight with Zo for starting something. He was a thug who wouldn't take no crap from nobody. That moment: KMart didn't get into a physical fight. He resorted to making fun of him. After: KMart was on a roll. Apologized to Zo. Even wearing Zo's number on his legs as a tribute to the fallen warrior. I'm not saying that he should be excused for saying that. In fact, I hated him for that. But you have to look at the whole course of his career and see his improvement. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree taking risks is part of the game, but the smart GM's take the smart risks. Once again K-Mart is not a superstar.</div> Let's see. Thorn drafted MJ, got Kidd, traded Eddie for RJ and Twin, got back Eddie, signed Zo (which helped sign Kidd in the process) and saw the potential in Frank. He's pretty smart so when he said that he wants to keep KMart, he realizes that it's a good investment.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post"> Let's see. Thorn drafted MJ, got Kidd, traded Eddie for RJ and Twin, got back Eddie, signed Zo (which helped sign Kidd in the process) and saw the potential in Frank. He's pretty smart so when he said that he wants to keep KMart, he realizes that it's a good investment.</div> Rod Thorn is a great GM, which is why the qualifying offer for K-Mart was only $6,667,295, a cry far from a max deal. :mrgreen: So not getting into a fight and making a disrespectful comment is improvement and qualifies him for maturing? Give me a break. Maybe he didn't start a fight because Zo would have laid him out. You took my comments out of context in regards to J-Kidd being a franchise player, and the Net's franchise player. I never dissed K-Mart for having Kidd there, I just said he benefits from Kidd. Meaning Kidd makes him and the other Net players better, and this is what a franchise player does for you. K-Mart cannot create his own offense of shots for his teammates. He doesn't even draw double teams. Why not use the Spurs series? Other superstars in the league have had success against the Spurs, and if you want to put Martin in the same echelon as the other superstars then it's a fair argument. Kevin Garnett, Shaq, and even Rasheed Wallace all elevated their games against the Spurs Twin Towers. Each held their own against them, Martin didn't. He's a class below Shaq, Duncan, and KG, and does not deserve to be paid like them. Scoring 17ppg on 14 shots is good? K-Mart shot .488 from the field last season. For an inside player this is terrible and a far cry from superstar numbers. Even RJ shots a higher fg% than K-Mart and he takes a lot more jumpshots. Of course Kidd gets the ball down the stretch. He is the franchise player and a playmaker for the Nets. I keep pointing it out to you, but for some reason he make Kidd's presence an excuse for K-Mart not being a superstar, and at the same time you say K-Mart benefits from Kidd ... so which way is it?
Kenyon doesn't deserve the max. He can't shoot and isn't a great rebounder for a PF. But I think someone dumb enough will offer him the max. (Atlanta)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Rod Thorn is a great GM, which is why the qualifying offer for K-Mart was only $6,667,295, a cry far from a max deal. :mrgreen: </div> The qualifying offer has NOTHING to do with contract negotiations in terms of getting the max. The qualifying offer is in terms of where a player was drafted, and what he made last season. Its a 115% increase I believe. In essence, a qualifying offer is a one year extension at that rate from his rookie contract. It means NJ has the right to match anyone who offers KMart a deal, and should no one do that, NJ signs him for one year at the price. It has nothing to do with asking for the max. Its a rookie contract provision, in essence... In other words, it wouldn't matter who the player was in his shoes....thats the most he will get if no other team offers him anything.
I understand, but the Nets also have an opportunity to make him a larger offer, and they have yet to do so.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand, but the Nets also have an opportunity to make him a larger offer, and they have yet to do so.</div> Actually, the qualifying offer signals that perhaps they are interested in doing so. A qualifying offer gives the Nets 15 days to match an offer someone else offers. Its an insurance policy, in essence. An insurance policy in terms of time. Also, a person who is signed to a qualifying offer(meaning they aren't offered anything from another team above the qualifying offer...so the Nets in essence sign him to that $6.1 million) cannot be traded. And I doubt the Nets are going to simply let Martin walk away without compensation next year. So what this does is by the Nets time to work out a long term deal. If a team should make a large offer, the Nets have 15 days to consider and match it. In the meantime, they can start negotiations on a long term deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post"> Jalen Rose is maxed out. Would you rather have Rose or Martin? Toronto fans, don't even bother replying. </div> ignorant comment. im a toronto fan, and would obviously rather have k-mart. posts like this are just lame. you generalize all toronto fans because of a few idiots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I understand, but the Nets also have an opportunity to make him a larger offer, and they have yet to do so.</div> Why would they make a larger offer? KMart is a restricted free agent. Of course they'll be the ones to wait and match. They have to downplay in some way their desire to sign KMart. Who knows, no one may offer KMart the max for all we know. So making a large offer without waiting to see what KMart's market value is just not a good idea. Looks like we're disagreeing on a lot of things and we're just going back and forth with the arguments. All I'm saying is KMart is as important to the team as Kidd. Without KMart, Kidd won't be going back to the finals and vice versa. With regards to his maturity. Did you see the game when Nene headlocked him? With the old KMart, he would've knocked Nene out without questions asked. What did he do? He realized that it was a crucial play and the Nets can't afford to get a T and lose KMart at that game. He simply walked away. Don't you think it's unfair that a lot of people are saying that KMart of today can't lead the Nets without Kidd? Considering that he never had the chance to prove himself coz he's been playing with Kidd for the better part of his career? In the same way that we'll never know if Kidd will be able to lead the Nets to back to back FInals without KMart. It is true that KMart and RJ benefits from having Kidd. But haven't you ever thought about the way Kidd benefits from KMart and RJ as well? I mean, it's pretty hard to run all those breaks without someone like KMart (who probably made the block/steal/rebound to start it off anyway) at the receiving end. All I'm saying is, both of them are vital to the Nets. Both lead the team in one way or another. In the same way that Shaq and Kobe leads the Lakers. Without one, the other will have a harder time. Now I'm not saying that KMart is anywhere near the talent of Shaq but I'm talking about the importance to the team. He benefits from the Nets' lack of post presence? Now that answers your question why he had a hard time against TD and Admiral. It's pretty easy to shut down a team's post presence if there's only one player comprising the whole post presence. Considering that he's all alone, he did a great job in the Spurs series. He even helped stealing two games. Also, don't forget the fact that he got sick at the latter part of the series. I dunno but shooting a little below 50% when you're considered to be on it's way to improving his jumpshot is pretty good. Besides, he's number 15 in the whole NBA for FG%. Pretty good. Let me ask you a question about who's going to get the ball in the end. During clutch times in LA games, who'll get the ball? Kobe or Shaq? Kobe of course coz there's a reason why he gets the ball at the end. In the same way that there are reasons why Kidd gets the ball on the offensive end. That is to set up a play to win the game. It's not necessarily to take the game winning shot. As I've said, It's to make the GAME WINNING SHOT OR ASSIST. He's a PG and that's how Nets play the clutch. Give the ball to Kidd and make him decide on what to do with it. If he gets free, then shoot it. If he doesn't (which almost never happens) then make the dish.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> If you look at the top 20 highest salaries you can see the amount of mistakes made by overpaying for players. - Dikembe Mutombo - Allan Houston - Damon Stoudemire - Anfernee Hardaway - Antoine Walker - Michael Finley - Keith Van Horn - SAR - Big Z - Jalen Rose - Grant Hill These players were all paid based on "future potential," however none of these players came close to fulfilling it and they have been traded around the league, injured year after year, or playing for non-contenders.</div> Ok, you say that some of those players were paid based on future potential. Grant Hill wasn't paid on future potential. He was already a bonified superstar when he got that deal. Hardaway was, at a time, an elite player in the league. I don't know what the hell they were thinking with Van Horn and Rose. Neither have the capability to lead a team and are nothing better than role players in my opinion. Mutumbo, I don't know about him. He could have been given it based on his defensive skills, otherwise, I dunno. Stoudamire was potential, I agree there. Walker is way overpaid along with Finley. Yea, but, some players don't get it based on potential. They get it cause they are at the top of their games at the time and then go downhill afterwards. Or, in Hills case, gets jynxed.
the NBA is a business, they are going to pay & draft players on potenial to help there company(aka there basketball team) grow in the future. And thats not going to change anytime soon. Think of the NBA as Wall Street. Say your a major Wall Street firm called The Nets. And you bring in a future executive fresh out of college. And you develope that person for 3 or 4 years in your fortune 500 company. During this time he is involved in some of the biggest projects(playoffs,finals etc) in your company,that will only help him become a even better executive when the right time comes. But right at the end of that 4 year another major fortune 500 company comes along sees the same potenial in the future executive that you have seen for the last 4 years. And they make him an outrageous offer to lure them to their company. So even tho you know that the future executive is at least a year away from being worth that type money of do you match the offer made by the other company or do you let the young executive walk to the other company. And basically have wasted all the time & effort you put into developing that executive, to get to the point where they were at now? Also remember that you let offers to gain other solid already proven Wall Street executives go, all because you made a decision that this young executive was your companies future.(last summer the Nets turned down an offer from the blazers that would be a swap of Rasheed for Martin)
Yeah. In other words, why would you select him with the number 1 pick, get the greatest PG today to help his game, help develop his game, develop him into a Finals player, make him an all star then just let him walk because someone else is willing to reap all the benefits that the team should be getting?
thing is...sometimes a player (like walker or finley) are an integral part of a team, and a team has to over pay them in order to keep them. the market will determine what a player earns...and its the players that should be helping their teams by signing for less money. if k-mart re-signs for the max, that will most likely mean jefferson wont be able to re-sign because he's going to command a truck load of money. its straight up agents and greed. k-mart should sign for 20 million over 5 yrs. thats a SHITE load of money, and he'd be helping his team out. but agent corruption and greed wont allow that. pisses me off
no I personally dont think K-Mart is worth max money...I believe max money should belong to franchise players (altho that obviously is not tha case) but I do think Martin will eventually be paid max money because everyone in the NBA is overpaid, with a select few as the exception...
I also think K-Mart isn't worth max money... I think the Nets won't keep him and Denver will give him the max, since they have so much money... I dunno, he just isn't a franchise player... Just cause he's an all-star doesn't mean he can recieve the max. The whole Nets system revolves are Jkidd not Martin. He's a good player, but not on the superstar level. I don't know if any team reaps alot of benefits from him, he has athletisicism and can explode. But he is created by Jason Kidd, sorry but it's the truth.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">I also think K-Mart isn't worth max money... I think the Nets won't keep him and Denver will give him the max, since they have so much money... I dunno, he just isn't a franchise player... Just cause he's an all-star doesn't mean he can recieve the max. The whole Nets system revolves are Jkidd not Martin. He's a good player, but not on the superstar level. I don't know if any team reaps alot of benefits from him, he has athletisicism and can explode. But he is created by Jason Kidd, sorry but it's the truth.</div> So when Martin scores from the half court offense, its a byproduct of Kidd? Not even close. Kidd is not a half court player. When the Nets are in their half court set, its Martin who becomes the most valuable player. Kidd doesn't thrive in that. Martin can play in both.
