In watching Mike play, over the past two years, doesn't seem to me he's anything all that special. Will he be? Seems again to me, no. I think Peitrus is a better player with better potential. I think Mike D (not the Beastie Boys) should be put out on the block with Damp for a possible trade. That's just my .02 though. He just hasn't impressed me. Sorry to anyone here who thinks he has it, I just don't. Also, I'd hate to see Claxton go, I really like him, I think he has it. I also think we would have been either 8 or 7 last year if he would have been the man. IMO he is better that Dick Van Anus.
Yes, Mike is expendable IMO. He will not get traded as long as Mullin is in charge though, I fear. Mike is young. He will be a good player someday soon. Will he warrant a #3 pick status, IMO, no. However, I think he could be a good all around player. He has some good passing skills that could get better. He is long and can rebound a bit. His shot needs some work, but there is no doubt in my mind he could be better than say a Deavan George. The only 2 things he really needs to improve to become the best player he could be is his strength, and his defense.
This is a bit of a multi-layered question. If you mean, would you be willing to trade him, then I would say Yes, he is expendable. But every player is this summer except KG, Duncan, Yao and LeBron, and maybe a few others. Was he worth #3 in the 2002 draft? Yes, I believe he was. Some players you could make an argument for (benefitted by hindsight, of course) GS to have picked, determined by mostly the impact they had in the previous year and some on possible potential: Drew Gooden (#5), Nene (#7), Amare Stoudamire (#9), Tayshaun Prince (#23), Carlos Boozer (#32), Flip Murray (#42). (You could maybe make arguments for someone like Vujanic or Welsch, but those would be stretches.) Now, even out of those players, the only one who impacted immediately was Stoudamire. And, he's still had problems following him around - his agent recently left - yes, walked away from a sure-fire percentage of several million on Amare's next contract/extention - because he couldn't put up with him. Nene and Gooden both are up in the air, with just as many questions as Dunleavy, maybe more. Prince is developing more slowly than Dunleavy, Murray was a virtual unknown at the time of the draft and even until early this year. (He got drafted mostly on great workouts and I believe the Chi. Predraft camp.) The only player I feel that went too far below the radar was Boozer, who simply had bad buzz, and others argued that Williams and Dunleavy were the core of team, or something. That's a horrible reason to drop someone out of the 1st round. But at the same time, #3 would have been a stretch then and still would be iffy now. Thus, in light of both today's numbers and current knowledge then, he clearly is worth #3 in that draft. As for a #3 in the history of the draft, well, then, maybe. Looking at the 5 last drafts, I'd say he's better than Miles (#3 in 2000) or LaFrentz (#3 in 98). Ok, so after that long essay on the 2002 draft, which probably no one cares, let's get to the heart of the issue. Since he is tradeable, which I conceded, how much would you get for him? Just any other player at all? A draft pick? I'm no GM, but I wouldn't give a guy with fair size and a good offensive game despite some defensive limitations away without something just in return. As we are a young team, we would have to aim for a younger guy in return. This young guy would have to have a great work ethic, have a bearable salary, and be ready to contribute within one or two years. I don't know if you agree with all of those premises, but given the current playoff draught, along with the fact that one veteran (at the price to match salaries, even in a multi-player trade) would likely not bring immediate help. Thus the young guys - and thus more uncertainty. Now, there are players out there who meet this criteria. Will the W's go after them? Even if they do (or are) will the other teams even listen to their offers and give up their own young guys? I don't know. Unless something great happens, I'm in no hurry to dump Dunleavy. Modern fans are much too impatient and aren't allowed into practices and lockerrooms to scout their teams. On the other hand, you have to concede where you make a mistake. In my opinion, GS didn't make a mistake and thus don't have to correct it by throwing away the potential that Dunleavy possesses.
Nicely put Zhone, I share the same thoughts. There are very few players that aren't expendable in this league. Everyone has their price. I don't understand why people are so down on Dunleavy. This was like his rookie year, he finally got the minutes. Are we expecting the guy to come into the league and have a Lebron/Melo type year right off the bat? Just look at Dunleavy's 20/20 game. He can rebound and run the offense well. He makes people around him better and is a team player. What more do you want out of him at such a young age?
Zhone, After watching Prince play, though not too often, I would say he's developed faster then Dunleavy at this point.
The thing I worry about trading Dunleavy is I'm afraid once the warriors trade him he'll become an all star and the warriors will have more losing years to come. But the trade with Damp for Posey and Wright intrigues me. And would think of trading dunleavy if we got posey. Or if they could somehow get Artest I think Dunleavy is expendable.
Hmm, I think you're right. I guess I sort of excluded the most recent games from my memory. It's not developing slowly when you made the nice defensive plays he did on some very good players, and his offensive game wasn't as raw as it looked the first year. Prince still looks so rail thin, though. Maybe his muscles are just compact? I probably would adjust what I said to accomodate that point of argument, though. It's still arguable that Dunleavy is better/worse than Prince; though I can buy that Prince may be further along. Dunleavy carried a bigger burden on his team this year and did pretty well, while Prince carried a lot of responsibility along with that whole 'Melo chip on his shoulder this season. Prince did benefit from trust from one of the game's best coaches in Larry Brown, while Musselman probably hindered Dunleavy's development from lack of 4th quarter time, as well. They both have very good shots, both are pretty conscientous rebounders, both are similar size. Defense may tip Prince over though I still like Dunleavy's nose for taking charges and his court vision (most of the time.)
Here's the thing with Dunleavy: He and Musselman simply were not a good fit. Musselman likes veteran, blue collar guys that hussle and are strong defenders...pretty much the exact opposite of Dunleavy. He's young, he's primarily a finnesse player, and defense will never be his strong suit. Now players can play well below expectations for one type of coach and blossom under another type of coach, just look at what Cardinal did. Musselman was the perfect coach for Cardinal and probably the worst type of coach Dunleavy could hope for. Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm very excited to see what Dunleavy can do under Montgomery. Stanford heavily recruited him coming out of high school and Montgomery is on the record as loving Dunleavy's game. When you compare what Montgomery did with Casey Jacobsen, you have to think he can do even more with Dunleavy. Dunleavy is at least as good a shooter as Jacobsen, he's a much better passer and ball handler, and at least as good an athlete and defender. The best part is that Montgomery has a history of getting the most out of guys with limited physical abilities (Jacobsen, Madsen, the Collins twins, and the ultimate...Peter Sauer...) and strong team defense was a Stanford hallmark. So if anyone can get the most out of Dunleavy, its Montgomery. Beyond having the support of his coach and GM, the Warriors will be a younger team next year, which will only help Dunleavy. His problem is that he just isn't assertive enough. These last two years he's constantly disappeared on offense because he was just trying to fit in. But when Claxston went down and Dunleavy was forced to be assertive (since he was playing point), he had some of his best games. I've always said that once Dunleavy accepts that he and Richardson are the two best players on the team, we're going to see a huge jump in his production. Right now all we've seen is flashes of the player he should be. If Foyle and Damp leave, the only two guys on the team who will have been on the Warriors longer will be Murphy and Richardson. While it would hurt to lose the big guys, it would mean that Dunleavy is one step closer to having to step up as a team leader. Actually, if I'm Montgomery, I would make Dunleavy one of the team captains next year. If he forces Dunleavy into a leadership role, I bet it will pay dividends down the road. He doesn't need to be a 24 ppg scorer to be effective, though he's certainly capable of doing that in any game. If he can get 18/7/4 next year, he'd be doing everything the Warriors want him to do. They didn't draft him to be a big time scorer and #1 option, they drafted him to stretch defenses and increase team chemistry. If he can do those things and average 18/7/4, I think he's doing everything the Warriors want him to do.
Those are all good points. My thoughts on Dunleavy are up and down. I've seen Mike shoot the lights out like Peja at times and also I've seen how the other small forward, who he was supposed to guard, shoot the lights out on him. I mean I credit guys like Joe Johnson and James Posey or Shane Battier for having great games against him, but his defense sucks so bad any forward can have a great game against him. I mean he's worse than Richardson at times. Plus the main problem I have with Dunleavy is this guy, who is known as a great pure shooter, will blow wide open shots on a regular basis with nobody on him and can't finish layups over smaller guys and gets knocked around. And the whole reason we drafted him was because he was a good height, has long arms, and has an understanding of the game that is rare in a league loaded with just pure athletes that lack fundamentals. I love guys with his fundamentals and all, but when they can't make somewhat of an impact on defense or offense because they are just too slow, it's just detrimental. I mean you got Speedy who can really push the ball and Jrich who can run. Where does Dunleavy fit within this? Now if we're trying to make him a point guard, then I would see this as the biggest advantage because you can just post him up or have him shoot over 6'2 guards and have Pietrus cover his man on defense. I think this tactic is the only thing I like about Dunleavy for now. Everything else I think he is pretty overrated and it was always about drafting him in hopes of getting his dad as coach. If he suddenly goes off like Larry Bird, the NBA would definitely benefit from this new marketing icon and so would Golden State.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">I love guys with his fundamentals and all, but when they can't make somewhat of an impact on defense or offense because they are just too slow, it's just detrimental. I mean you got Speedy who can really push the ball and Jrich who can run. Where does Dunleavy fit within this?</div> This is probably a philosophical difference I have with other people on how to run a fast break, but I think Dunleavy's skill set is perfect for a fast break offense. While he's not nearly the athlete Richardson, Pietrus, or Claxston are, he's the only one who can grab a defensive rebound and start the fast break himself. I'm not the best ball handler in the world, but I'm good enough for a big guy. I've always found that some of the best fast breaks are when I get the rebound and start the break myself, rather than looking to throw an outlet pass to a guard. You can get a few steps on the defense doing it yourself and if your guards see you get the rebound, they're already breaking to their hoop and almost always have a couple of steps on the defense as well. I've seen Dunleavy do it on occasion, and I've heard Barrnett say that he's repeatedly told Dunleavy he should do it more. As for the half court offensive and defensive sets, Dunleavy's physical limitations are a detriment, but they can be overcome. Just look at what Mullin, Bird, Stockton, Hornecek, and Reggie Miller have been able to do with limited physical abilities. Personally, I don't think Dunleavy is as bad an athlete as people make him out to be, but even if he is, he just has to learn how to be smarter.
... or learn how to be more aggressive. Those are good points. I like how you explain your reasoning, Walker. I guess for me its the tempo Dunleavy sets for the game compared to another slow, fundamentals type of guy. Like, I never thought Cardinal was a good athlete but was always solid in everything else (decent ballhandler, above average passer, good shot, good free thrower, made teammates better by doing the dirty work) but added hustle to his game to make up for his slowness. (I'll always remember that 2-1 fastbreak that had Jrich driving against Kobe and Jrich dishes off to Brian who tomahawks it for a dunk. That's pretty good since Cardinal ain't the best run and jump athlete, but he kept up and was in the air pretty high for the finish. Plus, you never see him dunk so it was like watching Tony Parker dunk in a game.)
This is off the subject but the dunk I remember the most is Arenas in the process of falling down, bounce passes it to JRich and he just jams it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting runtmc:</div><div class="quote_post">This is off the subject but the dunk I remember the most is Arenas in the process of falling down, bounce passes it to JRich and he just jams it.</div>Do you have it on video clip? That's cool I go off subject a lot myself hehe. BTW, here's this year's warrior highlights from one huge fan. http://pete.sarkasmos.com/ Actually, it's down now but used to have like over a hundred megs of various Warrior highlights.
Ontopic: I would hate to see Dunleavy leave. I think this year, under Montgomery, he could make good development. And just as said before, i would hate to see him excell at another team. Offtopic: does anybody know a site with gsw highlights like mentioned above (that does work..). They don't show a whole lot of warrior games in the netherlands (god bless pontel.com)
DutchWarriorFan, here's just the ones I know. <u><font color="#0000ff">Warriors 2003-2004 Video</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Brian Cardinal</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Calbery Cheaney</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Speedy Claxton</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Erik Dampier</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Mike Dunleavy</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Cliff Robinson</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff"></font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Adonal Foyle</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Avery Johnson</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Troy Murphy</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff"></font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Jason Richardson</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Michael Pietrus</font></u><u><font color="#0000ff">Nick Van Exel</font></u>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DutchWarriorFan:</div><div class="quote_post">Ontopic: I would hate to see Dunleavy leave. I think this year, under Montgomery, he could make good development. And just as said before, i would hate to see him excell at another team.</div>Exactly. I mean look at the improvement we saw from Dunleavy after one season. He improved dramically and of coarse it came with getting more minutes. The sky is the limit with Dunleavy, I can't wait to see him continue to prove the haters wrong.
Pete's website is now at http://www.gswpete.com/ and it's still up. Lots of warriors goodness, lots of thanks to Pete, who obviously is a rabid warriors fan.
