Shaq's Finals MVP awards

If you guys are just going to go just by stats, and not by effort and considering the difficulty of each player's matchups (along with stats), that's the problem. Shaq did great...incredible...wow. But, he did it against a pair of nobodys and an aging center. If that's not enough to explain it, how about Damien Wilkins? The Seattle Supersonics are watching the guy score 28 or so in the summer league games, but look who he's playing against? Nobody. So, does that mean he gets signed and starts for the Sonics, because his stats are jacked up? No. Point proven.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> If you guys are just going to go just by stats, and not by effort and considering the difficulty of each player's matchups (along with stats), that's the problem. Shaq did great...incredible...wow. But, he did it against a pair of nobodys and an aging center. If that's not enough to explain it, how about Damien Wilkins? The Seattle Supersonics are watching the guy score 28 or so in the summer league games, but look who he's playing against? Nobody. So, does that mean he gets signed and starts for the Sonics, because his stats are jacked up? No. Point proven. </div>
Kobe averaged 15.6 points a game, and shot 36.7% being guarded by Reggie Miller and Jalen Rose, neither being a good defender.
Shaq scored 38 PPG and shot 61.1% against Rick Smits, the backups, and Dale Davis who's a good defender but outmatched, how can a guy averaging 16-5-4 get a finals MVP over a guy averaging 38-17-3, does it even make sense to you for that to happen?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe averaged 15.6 points a game, and shot 36.7% being guarded by Reggie Miller and Jalen Rose, neither being a good defender.
Shaq scored 38 PPG and shot 61.1% against Rick Smits, the backups, and Dale Davis who's a good defender but outmatched, how can a guy averaging 16-5-4 get a finals MVP over a guy averaging 38-17-3, does it even make sense to you for that to happen?</div>

OMG. Are you kidding me? I thought I posted something just a few minutes ago about stats, but I guess not. I myself would just love to play ball against Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch...not so much Reggie Miller and Allen Iverson, but hey...I guess that's not the way it works. It would be different if Iverson dropped 50 on Kobe every single night...but he didn't. It would be different if Todd MacCulloch had ANY kind of game at all...but he doesn't.

I also never said that Kobe deserved all of the MVP's, either...so there's another assumption that wasn't correct. Forget it...because all I've been doing is arguing with Shaq bandwagoners. No fan of the Heat or any other team in the NBA would ever post about Shaq's "good qualities" unless he was traded to their team. Also, if Kobe's reputation wasn't as tarnished as it is now, all of you that post crap about him would be going, "Oh, he's so great...the next Jordan...blah blah" just like Shaq was saying about him since they won their first ring together. Now that Shaq has lost two straight, he couldn't handle it anymore...and neither can the Heat fans all of a sudden...they concern themselves with Shaq and the Lakers, and still talk about how the Lakers will graciously be destroyed in the West without the big Gorilla, when in reality...injuries and the possibility of a bad relationship between Shaq and Jones will be the end of all the Heat's excitement by the beginning of the playoffs.

Then what will happen? The Heat and their fans will hate Shaq, and say that he should be traded...and that the Lakers ripped them off. Fans will come along and say, "I told you so." I expected this...just not all the fans jumping on his back like he's already won you guys a title.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe averaged 15.6 points a game, and shot 36.7% being guarded by Reggie Miller and Jalen Rose, neither being a good defender.
</div>

I'm not sure about the fg% but the ppg is low because Kobe got injured early in game 2 and didn't return...so he basically got credit for a game played, but didn't actually play much thus lowering his statistics...

At any rate, Shaq was the Finals MVP of all the championships imo...Shaq can play when he wants to play

EDIT: I didn't notice u posted the gamelogs, so u did account for game 2

Just to add: Shaq's stats were slightly inflated during that series because Bird went heavy on the Hack-a-Shaq... again, not making an arguement for Kobe (cus Shaq deserved the MVP IMO) just making a useless point

 

Well, now Kobe is by himself on his own team, so until he plays a season or two by himself, I wouldn't be quick to judge his ability to take a team to the playoffs by himself. Shaq did have Penny, who was definitely better than Odom...but we will see how much farther Kobe can go compared to how far Shaq and Orlando went. Sure, Shaq may have success written all over him for about two more years, but just how many times can you write the word "success" on a guy as big as Shaq, the only big man in the East (excluding Wallace)? Alot...he's still got it easy. He's got Wade and Jones...IF they stay healthy, Shaq now has NOBODY to worry about all season long...so I'll just be amazed if he wins another ring Taking the Lakers to the playoffs would be good enough for me in Kobe's first season by himself...I'd be smiling the whole time.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm talking about the NBA Finals, not the regular season. I never mentioned a thing about the regular season MVP award...I'm talking the Finals. If the Lakers had, say...Elden Campbell, during the 2002 NBA Finals against the Nets, he would've destroyed Todd MacCulloch too, and the Lakers would've easily won. Now, keep Shaq...but replace Kobe with...Kendall Gill. No chance.</div>
So am I, against the Pacers, I don't think they would have won one game if Shaq was substituted by Elden Campbell, Kobe didn't do that great then, he was still very young.
Against the Sixers, I'd have them winning one or two games at most, Campbell isn't going to handle Dikembe or something, Mutombo had defensive skills.
Against the Nets, without Shaq I'd have them (Lakers) losing or winning in six or seven, I remember KVH not doing anything that series and also not wanting to guard Shaq, so he could be more of a factor with different matchups.

Why Kendal Gill? Let's say they had James Posey instead of Kobe, I'd say they'd still beat the Pacers, or go to 7. They'd beat the Sixers in 7, and they'd have a better chance against the Nets than with Elden and Kobe. What I wouldn't say is that they'd get to the finals in the first place with Posey repalcing Kobe, but they wouldn't either with Campbell replacing Shaq, conference semi's would be hard enough, how would they have beaten Portland.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont know, but those Stats against the Pacers speak for themselves. OG15, you have the stats for the other two finals?</div>
Yes they do, that one isn't too arguable, the others ones are though, but 15.6 points isn't getting you a finals MVP, whether you hit big shots or not.


<u>vs Sixers:</u>

Kobe Bryant: 24.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 5.8 APG, 41.5% FG in 46.8 MPG

Shaquille O'neal: 33.0 PPG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.4 BPG, 57.3% FG in 45 MPG

Allen Iverson: 35.6 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.8 APG, 40.7% FG, and played 47.4 MPG




<u>vs Nets:</u>

Kobe Bryant: 26.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 5.3 APG, 51.4% FG, and played 43.8 MPG

Shaquille O'neal: 36.3 PPG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.75 BPG, 59.5% FG, and played 41.5 MPG

Kenyon Martin: 22.0 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 2.5 APG, 46.7% FG, in 39.5 MPG

Jason Kidd: 20.8 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 9.8 APG, 2.25 SPG, 43.8% FG, in 42.0 MPG





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">OMG. Are you kidding me? I thought I posted something just a few minutes ago about stats, but I guess not. I myself would just love to play ball against Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch...not so much Reggie Miller and Allen Iverson, but hey...I guess that's not the way it works. It would be different if Iverson dropped 50 on Kobe every single night...but he didn't. It would be different if Todd MacCulloch had ANY kind of game at all...but he doesn't. </div>
Actually in 01-02 before the disease, MacCalloch was considered to be striking as a top center when he averaged 9.7 points, 6.1 rebounds and 1.44 blocks, while shooting 53.1% in 24 minutes.

What does Allen Iverson have to do with this, we're talking about the Pacer series right now aren't we, but yea you didn't say he should've won them all yet you included the Pacer series for fun or something right?




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure about the fg% but the ppg is low because Kobe got injured early in game 2 and didn't return...so he basically got credit for a game played, but didn't actually play much thus lowering his statistics...

At any rate, Shaq was the Finals MVP of all the championships imo...Shaq can play when he wants to play</div>
Even without the 2 points 9 minutes ankle sprain game, he only averaged 19 points and shot 36.8% that series, I don't see how he could've been the MVP, and he didn't shut down Reggie or anything either, Reggie had a higher FG% and PPG average than during the season.





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I also never said that Kobe deserved all of the MVP's, either...so there's another assumption that wasn't correct. Forget it...because all I've been doing is arguing with Shaq bandwagoners. </div>
I don't even like Shaq, I don't hate him, but I don't have any meriting feelings towards the guy. I've heard you say this too many times in debates, it's getting redundant, if someone argues about something regarding Shaq, it's because he's not on the Lakers anymore, and everyone loves him and the Heat and hates Kobe



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
No fan of the Heat or any other team in the NBA would ever post about Shaq's "good qualities" unless he was traded to their team. Also, if Kobe's reputation wasn't as tarnished as it is now, all of you that post crap about him would be going, "Oh, he's so great...the next Jordan...blah blah" just like Shaq was saying about him since they won their first ring together. Now that Shaq has lost two straight, he couldn't handle it anymore...and neither can the Heat fans all of a sudden...they concern themselves with Shaq and the Lakers, and still talk about how the Lakers will graciously be destroyed in the West without the big Gorilla, when in reality...injuries and the possibility of a bad relationship between Shaq and Jones will be the end of all the Heat's excitement by the beginning of the playoffs.</div>
Actually I remember all these years defending Shaq to people who say all he can do it push people and dunk, it has nothing to do with the Heat or any garbage. What is it because I don't agree with you, so you decide to go on a rant about something that doesn't even relate at all?
Man you have an active mind I guess I could say, suddenly the Heat fans concern themselves with Shaq and the Lakers and talke about how they can't win without him?
I think a lot of people are saying that, not just "Heat fans", and it seems like you're the one concerning yourself with the Heat too much, not the other way around.
Also who's posting crap about Kobe, I'm just telling the truth, Kobe's reputation means nothing too me, I don't care, it's interesting news but it really doesn't change anything about what kinda ball player he is.





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then what will happen? The Heat and their fans will hate Shaq, and say that he should be traded...and that the Lakers ripped them off. Fans will come along and say, "I told you so." I expected this...just not all the fans jumping on his back like he's already won you guys a title.</div>
http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21053 - read, yea, all the Heat fans were extremely happy and said we'd win a title now because Shaq is here


You make too many assumptions of what others are thinking, you say things like: Kobe will take the Lakers to the playoffs in a thread talking about Finals MVP's, as if someone was saying it's impossible for Kobe to do so?
Then that Heat fans all love Shaq , you need to visit a Heat fan board, that's not true at all.
I mean some of the things you start writing come out of nowhere, its like you think everyone that doesn't have Kobe as their favourite player must hate Kobe or something????
.... and everyone that isn't a Laker fan has hated them all these years and never asid anything good about any of their players

 

Im a hardcore Kobe fan...But I know who the MVP's should have went to. Shaq. No Debate. Argue all you want.

BTW, OG15 is right about Iverson and Miller. They couldnt defend Kobe if they tried to. Kobe will post them up and eat them for breakfast.

Iverson and Miller are not known for their defense. They are both scorers. Iverson lites teams up for 30+ every game because he is the only one on his team who can score at will. Kobe at the time still couldnt contain him very well.

As for Shaq, The Sixers, Pacers, and Nets had to put different bodies on Shaq all the time. So he played against 2-4 players a night. Not to mention all the double/triple teams and hacking. Still he scored, dominated, and took control of games.

Now Kobe has to put up with double and triple teams, being bullied around, and has to still score. I feel Kobe can do it, but it will be much tougher on Kobe this season than ever before.

 

I dont think one person hear has said Kobe sucks or they hate him so why do you think that? Shaq won all those MVPs he earned too. I would put Jason Kidd or AI or Reggie over Kobe in those Finals performances.

 

You're trying to say that Heat fans don't believe that Shaq will give them a few rings? Come on...this is a message board...I'm talking about the city of Miami, the ones making such a big deal about Shaq. A huge deal about him. I'm not talking about the matter of opinions on here when it relates to Shaq and the fans...I'm talking about the facts: the way they acted when he arrived, the way they were all over him, and how they acted as if he was their "savior" when he told them, "I'm bringing a championship to Miami."

The reason I say that there are tons of Shaq bandwagoners already is that I've never seen this many people suddenly say that he's the greatest, that he can win it all again, etc. If I remember right, alot of people were saying that the dynasty was over and that meant Shaquille O'Neal also. Now, all of a sudden, he goes to a mediocre team, led by a second year PG, and everyone is saying NBA champs? That's ridiculous.

Suddenly, everything is thrown onto Kobe Bryant's shoulders. Does anyone realize all the BS he went through this year, and still outperformed Shaq? What about last year? He outperformed him then, too. I don't want to have to pull up any STATS or records that were matched or set. This year, without Shaq, Kobe and the Lakers went .625. With Shaq and no Kobe, the Lakers were .600. Yet, all I ever hear is how Kobe and the Lakers LOST 75% of their games without the big man, but looking at the STATS, they won more with Kobe than they did with Shaq. Who does Kobe have for a backup? Kareem Rush? Fox could play SG...but what about Shaq? His only backup was when they moved Karl Malone up to center, but wait...in 6 of the 8 games they played with Kobe and no Shaq, Malone was injured. So, it must have been Medvedenko taking his place Where was Shaq then?

Lakers with Kobe (no Shaq): 5-3
Lakers with Shaq (no Kobe): 6-4

Funny that everyone is quick to make a "fact" when in reality, they were wrong the whole time. I'm the GM right now, and I've got Kobe in one hand and Shaq in the other...Shaq can eat dirt for all I care. I've got a choice, because I know that the two will never work together the same again. I'm throwing out the big man, the old guy, the one that looks sluggish everytime he walks out on the court anymore...and I'm throwing him out to the Eastern Conference. Now "The Diesel" really has it easy...he knows now that he really doesn't have to share the ball (I don't care what anyone says)...and that there isn't going to be anyone in the East playoff bracket that can stop him other than possibly Ben Wallace. On the other hand, Kobe has everything pushing him from behind. People talking BS on him, even Shaq is STILL trying to start trouble.

Kobe will be the one on top in the long run...because Shaq will be so anxious to win a ring, that he'll stick around with the Heat and end up like Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon. Just like John Salley said...he played with Kobe and MJ both, and Kobe still has 10 years left, and can surpass Jordan's greatness...and now that Shaq is gone, it can be much easier. How many points could Jordan have scored if he had Shaquille O'Neal on his team? I really doubt it would be as much as Kobe's 30 and 24 of these past two seasons (considering this season, he had Payton/Malone/Shaq, a bad shoulder and a trial to slow his scoring). What will Shaq do? The only thing he'll surpass is his ability to play in a couple of years...and by that time, it'll be too late for the Heat to trade him off for any kind of value, and they'll be left with nothing.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Suddenly, everything is thrown onto Kobe Bryant's shoulders. Does anyone realize all the BS he went through this year, and still outperformed Shaq? What about last year? He outperformed him then, too. I don't want to have to pull up any STATS or records that were matched or set. This year, without Shaq, Kobe and the Lakers went .625. With Shaq and no Kobe, the Lakers were .600. Yet, all I ever hear is how Kobe and the Lakers LOST 75% of their games without the big man, but looking at the STATS, they won more with Kobe than they did with Shaq. Who does Kobe have for a backup? Kareem Rush? Fox could play SG...but what about Shaq? His only backup was when they moved Karl Malone up to center, but wait...in 6 of the 8 games they played with Kobe and no Shaq, Malone was injured. So, it must have been Medvedenko taking his place Where was Shaq then?

Lakers with Kobe (no Shaq): 5-3
Lakers with Shaq (no Kobe): 6-4</div>
Actually it was
Kobe: 5-3
Shaq: 7-4

Kobe was in one game against the Sonics but only played 1 minute, and had a foul and nothing else statisticall, they won that game.

Just so you know, Horace Grant was the backup at C, not Malone moving to center, and while Shaq was injured Brian Cook was getting a lot of center minutes. Malone was their for 2 games of the 8, and Slava for the rest, and 1 of the 11 games when Shaq was there but no Kobe.




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe will be the one on top in the long run...because Shaq will be so anxious to win a ring, that he'll stick around with the Heat and end up like Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon. Just like John Salley said...he played with Kobe and MJ both, and Kobe still has 10 years left, and can surpass Jordan's greatness...and now that Shaq is gone, it can be much easier. How many points could Jordan have scored if he had Shaquille O'Neal on his team? I really doubt it would be as much as Kobe's 30 and 24 of these past two seasons (considering this season, he had Payton/Malone/Shaq, a bad shoulder and a trial to slow his scoring). What will Shaq do? The only thing he'll surpass is his ability to play in a couple of years...and by that time, it'll be too late for the Heat to trade him off for any kind of value, and they'll be left with nothing.</div>
I think Jordan would have scored more considereing Jordan was shooting about 52-53% at this time in his career, if he's hitting more of his shots it makes sense that he'll get more points.


Also about the people in Miami, obviously their'll be hype, but how many of those people know much about basketball really, not that many.

 

Did Jordan or Shaq EVER play a game like Kobe did and refuse to shoot the ball just to prove a point? Did they EVER take as many difficult shots as Kobe does in a game (if you haven't noticed, he does it on purpose)?

Kobe has more skill and potential than Shaq and maybe even Jordan but the point is, he's not using it right. When he becomes a team player, then we can start with the Jordan comparisons and start giving him MVP awards. Even Shaq said Kobe can be the greatest player of all time. Everyone knows that. But right now, he's not. Shaq's been the MVP for all 8 years they were together.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lakerland:</div><div class="quote_post">Did Jordan or Shaq EVER play a game like Kobe did and refuse to shoot the ball just to prove a point? Did they EVER take as many difficult shots as Kobe does in a game (if you haven't noticed, he does it on purpose)?
</div>

Jordan did both of those, lol...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lakerland:</div><div class="quote_post">Did Jordan or Shaq EVER play a game like Kobe did and refuse to shoot the ball just to prove a point? Did they EVER take as many difficult shots as Kobe does in a game (if you haven't noticed, he does it on purpose)?
</div>

Jordan did both of those, lol...

In addition, Kobe may have refused to play offense to prove a point (he denies it)...but Shaq has on numerous occasions has refused to play defense to prove a point...and Shaq has admitted to this...Shaq has also sat out WHOLE GAMES to prove a point...

 

shaq deserved the finals award for the first two ones....stats wise, he was muc better


they go for stats in the nba finals, they dont care about how u were clutch....chaucey had the highest stats so he got the award....

kobe had clutchness but 15 ppg isnt exactly MVP material when u got shaq rippin 30-16 everynight...

Kobe deserved the MVP in the nets seriies tho....actually it should have been shAQ/kobe co-mvps

thier stats were somewhat similar and they were both really valuable to the lakers in that series as the nets had no answer for neither and ended up swwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeping em....

 

Some of you people have some serious selective memories. Do any of you actually remember Smits or McCollah playing Shaq one on one? Mutumbo did try to D him up one on one for most of the games & Shaq shooled his old butt. Shaq was facing double and triple teams for the entire series against the nets and pacers and he was still putting up monster numbers. Not only was shaq scoring alot he was getting the other teams in major foul trouble. Which makes easier for everyone to score. Has there EVER been a game in the finals when Kobe was double teamed everytime he touched the ball? NO THERE HASN'T and if there was you know he wouldn't be scoring 35pts.

Shaq deserves all 3 MVP's

 

^^ exactly. No one played shaq 1v1. He was double/triple teamed all nite and hacked yet he still scored huge. Shaq does deserve all three.

On another note:
One the most recent poll on ESPN with an excess of 40,000 votes, 51% says Shaq wont win another title in Miami. I posted this somewhere else as well. Im going with the 51% I'd like to see shaq do well, but he wont win a title with that team.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">My point is this: the Lakers could've put any decent center in his place and still won. Kobe was the one who held off onslaughts from Iverson, Miller and Kidd...because Iverson can score 50 on any given day against someone like Rick Fox. Shaq's performance was spectacular, but who is more of a hero...the guy who pulls you out of a blazing house, or the neighbor who called 911? Shaq was there for security, while Kobe did all the dirty work. That's exactly what happened.

BTW - Shaq and Kobe both put the Lakers in the Finals...that's why Shaq received the actual MVP for the season...but I'm talking about the Finals MVP awards, where Kobe earned at least one, possibly two.

EDIT: I posted this in my main post too, just in case someone reads it and skips all the other posts and asks the same thing all over again.</div>
bet u would'nt be sayin this if shaq was still on the lakers roster. the lakers could've put any center in shaqs place and still won??? we'll find out this year won't we? just get off kobe already. they are both good players they need each other to win a title, too bad shaq left.

 

I think Scottie Pippen has done a better job leading his team when the franchise player left than Kobe will with the Lakers former franchise player gone.

 

Without shaq the lakers would not have won those finals. He dominated against the pacers breaking the all time free throws attempted record do to his power being unstoppable. Killed new jersey with his great over powering inside presence and in philly he was able to cotrol there fast brak tempo by getting the lakers rebounds.

Just tring to take that that he earned away from him and tring to say he isnt deserving of them is ludacris. Kobe could not have done it without shaquille oneal the lakers were a losing team before shaq got there the same season as kobe and still would be if shaq had stayed in orlando and just kobe had gone to the lakers at the time.

He was able to drive the lakers to those championships. He played hurt and injured through the entire playoffs to help the lakers. Without him the lakers wouldnt have been able to surpace the spurs and duncan, twolves and garnett, kings and c-webb. he lead them to the finals and dominated every time there. He deserved those titles.