<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">you say that, but you contradicted yourself by calling Magic the "best point guard ever" in your first post. I believe that you are ranking point guards and ranking him above all others in that category.</div> you say that, but you contradicted yourself by calling Magic the "best point guard ever" in your first post. I believe that you are ranking point guards and ranking him above all others in that category.[/QUOTE] Im rankin by category. I have a easier time acknoledging rank based on position rather than Overall. Look at Magics Assist and points ratio. Probrably the closest to this would be Jason Kidd. MJ is definately currently the best Shooting Guard to play the game thus far. But best ever in Basketball? thats the problem I have. Position is easier. Look at Wilt. 23 rbg average. YOU think MJ would ever average that? No. but does that make Wilt better? Yeah at Center. Not at shooting guard. Looks like your not the only one that has problem reading posts. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No where did I say that just because MJ had more rings made him better because of that fact alone. Championships=dominance.</div> Hey 6 rings makes MJ more Dominant huh? Championships make you better? Oh Come on man wake up. Man Robert Horry has 5 championships behind him too. He must be DOMINANT. Playin with the spurs he may get a couple more too! Rings and championships dont mean ish..It just meansthe overall team was great. Look at Karl Malone, he is probrably one of the most dominant Power Forwards of his Time. he has never won a championship in his life. It doesn't make him any less dominant with or without the championships. Your kidding yourself with that arguement.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">Im rankin by category. ANd remember its all by opinion as I have stated. I have a easier time acknoledging rank based on position rather than Overall. Hey 6 rings makes MJ more Dominant huh? Championships make you better? Oh Come on man wake up. Man Robert Horry has 5 championships behind him too. He must be DOMINANT. Playin with the spurs he may get a couple more too! Rings and championships dont mean ish..It just meansthe overall team was great. Look at Karl Malone, he is probrably one of the most dominant Power Forwards of his Time. he has never won a championship in his life. It doesn't make him any less dominant with or without the championships. Your kidding yourself with that arguement.</div> You're not getting what I'm trying to say. There is a difference between leading your team to a championship and being a role player on a championship team, like Horry. You're just talking about straight numbers and I'm not. It's the act of taking your team on your back and making your teammates better and winning a championship. Dominance isn't just dominating your opponent and posting good stats but it's also making your teammates better and doing all the little things to win a ring and leading them to a championship. It's not the number of rings you win, but what it represents.
MJ required a supporting cast. I good one at that to win championships. Pippen, Rodman, Paxon, BJ, etc...They had the formula for success. Wilt did not get a real opportunity to play with a player as good as Pippen until he played along side Jerry West. Remember, its a team sport not an individual sport. I dont care how great Jordan is, he wouldn't have done it on his own. I can probrably find 1000's of small but VITAL plays Pippen did to help the team. Yeah, Jordan was the SHOWCASE, but he wasn't what won the Championship for the Bulls. It was the Team that won the championship.. I guarantee if Wilt had a better supporting cast, he would own more championships. Check these stats from the 1991-92 championship against the Lakers. Michael Jordan Jordan in 1991-92 30.1 PPG FG%.519 RPG 6.4 APG 6.1 STL. 2.3 BLK.0.9 Scottie Pippen Pippen was just as good as Jordan this year. Scottie was also an established top notch defender by 1991-92. Year PPG FG% RPG APG STL BLK Pippen in 1991-92 PPG 21.0 FG%.506 RPG 7.7 APG 7.0 STL. 1.9 BLK. 1.1 WIlt never played along a player of Pippens caliber until he was traded to the Lakers to play along side West. Check out the Bulls Championship squad vs. The Boston Celtics. Boston won this based on a Panel of Experts. You be the Judge. This is just another reason why basketball is a 5 man game not one. Look 79% of fans said the bulls were #1. but the experts say otherwise.....woot! http://www.nba.com/playoffs2004/challenge_...eltics1986.html
Call me ignorant but I think Jordan would've have won the championships with the same supporting cast minus Pippen (maybe not all 6, but a good majority of them). Pippen was never as good as Jordan, either defensively or offensively. MJ won the MVPs (both season and finals), which means that he is the main reason why the Bulls did as well as they did. He was also the one who won the defensive player of the year awards. I'm not doubting that Pippen was a great player and that he contributed to their championships, but you can never say that he was just as good as Jordan at any point of his career. Remember that Jordan's offense helped Pippen's offense out immensely by taking the focus off Pippen so he was free to do his thing. Jordan's teammates fed off of Jordan and played their best with him, Pippen included. The Bulls as a team was greater than the sum of its parts. Take Jordan away and the "supporting cast" struggled to make any kind of an inpact in the league both individually and as a team.
Yo, I wont argue your opinon. But I notice the stats are very similar. Pippen wasn't selected for the first dream team for nothing. Its a team sport man. Pippen was a HUGE FACTOR. Just look at his Resume. This is not even half of it. Pippen All Star 1990-NBA 1992-NBA 1993-NBA 1994-NBA 1995-NBA 1996-NBA 1997-NBA 1994-NBA-AS MVP Honors 1991-NBA-All-Defense (2nd) 1992-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 1992-NBA-All-NBA (2nd) 1993-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 1993-NBA-All-NBA (3rd) 1994-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 1994-NBA-All-NBA (1st) 1995-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 1995-NBA-All-NBA (1st) 1996-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 1996-NBA-All-NBA (1st) 1997-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 1997-NBA-All-NBA (2nd) 1998-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 1998-NBA-All-NBA (3rd) 1999-NBA-All-Defense (1st) 2000-NBA-All-Defense (2nd) What? Pippen contributed Big Time to the Championship Bulls. NO DOUBT about it. Argue it all you want, but you cant deny the value of pippen. Jordan would probrably have won 2-3 championships at most. About as much as Wilt if he didnt have PIPPEN. WOOT! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Bulls as a team was greater than the sum of its parts. Take Jordan away and the "supporting cast" struggled to make any kind of an inpact in the league both individually and as a team.</div> Pippen did in fact lead the Jordanless Bulls through the entire 1993-94 season, as well as through most of the 94-95 season, before Jordan returned. In both seasons, the Bulls compiled season records over .500, and competed in the playoffs. They didnt struggle even without Jordan. Now if they didnt make the playoffs and had a losing record, I'd call it a struggle without Jordan.
Even so, but Pippen wouldn't have been the same player had he not been playing with MJ. Jordan would've have still been as good a player as he was without Pippen. Pippen needed Jordan much more than Jordan needed Pippen. Pippen, no doubt contributed but we all know that Pippen would not be able to win a championship by himself with the same Bulls team minus Jordan. Jordan would have still won championships without Pippen.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">Even so, but Pippen wouldn't have been the same player had he not been playing with MJ. Jordan would've have still been as good a player as he was without Pippen. Pippen needed Jordan much more than Jordan needed Pippen. Pippen, no doubt contributed but we all know that Pippen would not be able to win a championship by himself with the same Bulls team minus Jordan. Jordan would have still won championships without Pippen.</div> Thats was my whole point from the beginning. Jordan would probrably win only about half of the championships w/o Pippen. If Wilt had a Pippen he would have definately won more titles. You argued that Jordan led the bulls to 6. Wilt probrably would also have led his teams to more if he had a Pippen as well.
I don't think that's necessarily true. You're assuming that Wilt would've be able to make Pippen raise his game to the level that MJ did. It was all about the chemistry that made Pippen and Jordan such a good team, a chemistry that might not be necessarily there with Wilt and Pippen. As we've seen in the past and even this year with the Lakers and their 4 future hall of famers, you can't just throw players together and expect them to win championships just because they're good individually. There are many intangibles involved in making a championship team, so you can't really assume that Wilt and Pippen would combine to win the championships that the Bulls won.
Well, you cant assume Jordan would have still won without Pippen. My Intangibles. Exactly. Give Wilt Jordans team and you never know. haha. Works both ways my friend. Its all based on what we think. NOt what would have really happened.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">No, I don't want a link but you might want to read my original post (what a concept). I said he had the record for highest career scoring average before he foolishly came out of retirement to try his hand at playing for the Wizards.</div> And Wilt's scoring average would have been much higher if he didn't choose to be a number 3 scoring option for the Lakers in the last third of his career. His field goal percentage at the tail-end of his career was unbelievably high. I believe in his last season it was up around 72%. So, yeah, if he WANTED do, he probably could have still been scoring 20-25ppg. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No where did I say that just because MJ had more rings made him better because of that fact alone. Championships=dominance. If Wilt, (along with MJ) was the best player to ever play the game, why couldn't he even dominate the players of his own era to win more championships. MJ had Pippen but who else did he have? MJ carried the team and it was his team an no one else's. He was always responsible for taking the biggest shots and guarding the best players on the other team, not Pippen. As for the rest, they were good role players because Jordan made them better. How well did they do when Jordan left them to fend for themselves?</div> You can't compare two players at vastly different positions, playing in vastly different eras, and say one must be better than the other because he has 6 rings to the other's 2 rings. During that time, Boston just had too many good players. Wilt easily outmatched Russel individually, but those Celtic teams were just too good. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">you say that, but you contradicted yourself by calling Magic the "best point guard ever" in your first post. I believe that you are ranking point guards and ranking him above all others in that category.</div> It's more sensible to call a player the best at his position, versus the best of all time. Just as its more sensible to call player the best of his era, versus the best all time. I would agree with him -- Magic's the best point guard the league has seen. I would say that MJ is certainly the best 2-guard ever in the game. And if I had to choose between the two, I'd probably pick Jordan over Johnson (if he had stayed retired the first time, I'd might be tempted take Magic over MJ). For best small forward, all time, I'd take Larry Bird. Best PF, I'd go with Duncan (its between him and Karl Malone). And for center, I'll take Wilt (though I think a good case could also be made for Kareem or Shaq).
For the clowns who thought Pippen was just a loser, read those honors posted previously, and realise why the season record in which Jordan played and the following record in which Jordan was playing baseball, only differentiate by 2 more losses. I mean it's not like they sucked completely with out Jordan, they made the playoffs. Pippen did all the dirty work, while Jordan did the sneaky behind the back steals/blocks. Michael made Pippen, umm...I don't know I wasn't at practice, but players make themselves with hard work and determination. There is no greatest player ever. Every player has their own roles. Bottomline: you can be the best player ever, if the team doesn't have right chem. (Unlike the Bulls...more like last years Magic...doesn't mean T-macs bad) your not going to win.
I haven't really been reading the thread but, I think that MJ was the best ever just because he loved the game and left it all on the floor every single night. Maybe not the best statistically ever but in my opinion the best player ever just because of his leadership, example to his teamates, and his effort. MJ was the one who lead his team to want the rings and be the best team in their time. Well, at least the 90's.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting allstar44:</div><div class="quote_post">IMO MJ is not the greatest o fall time, #1 because LACK OF DEFENCE IN THE LEAGUE.. it was embarassing how many garbage fakes worked on people (sorry but its true).. #2 we dont know how he wouldve done against todays players... he would be matched against guys like kobe, tmac, artest, and when he drove he would meet players like ben wallace, shaq, jermain oniel, amare. #3 i have many jordan games taped and he had many great players to work with who contributed beautifully.</div> I'm sorry but the defense in MJ's heyday by far exceeds todays defense so using that as any kind barometer comparing players is null and void. back then..Jordan was guarded by players the like of sidney moncrief,joe dumars,xavier mcdaniel,mychal thompson and he drove the lane on players like rick mahorn,bill lambeer,hakeem olajuwon,david robinson,patrick ewing,charles oakley and the list goes on. comparing defensive eras most definetly goes to michael jordan.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fletcher:</div><div class="quote_post"> I think that MJ was the best ever just because he truly loved the game </div> WRONG If MJ truly loved the game he wouldnt of took those BULLSH*T retirements. MJ was all for the money. He had plenty one of the riches people in the world. I hope no one comes up and sayd im a MJ hata or theyre saying that I said he sucks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ace2k2:</div><div class="quote_post">WRONG If MJ truly loved the game he wouldnt of took those BULLSH*T retirements. MJ was all for the money. He had plenty one of the riches people in the world. I hope no one comes up and sayd im a MJ hata or theyre saying that I said he sucks.</div> All for the money? He wasn't even in the top 15 highest paid players until his comeback from retirement. His last three years he was the highest paid player in the League,but it was WELL deserved seeing as how much money he generated for the Chicago Bulls and the NBA itself and yet,thru all this you never heard MJ onetime say anything about it. He never griped,never threatened to sit out,never complained to the media. His second comeback with the Wizards he donated his salaries for those years to the 9/11 Relief fund. Your estimation that he played for money is flat wrong. His retirements were BS? Check it,his first retirement he had gotten bored with the game to the point where he was getting burned out. It wasn't fun anymore. He and his father talked alot about him trying baseball. Compound all of this with the fact that his father was murdered that summer and you have a prime reason to step away from the game of basketball. Anyone under as much scrutiny and media attention as Jordan needs to step away from time to time,if for nothing else to re-energize yourself and re-dedicate yourself. Anyone who works a 9 to 5er day in and day out knows what its like to be burned out and need time away...same thing with Mike. His second comeback was anything but selfish. He wanted to show his guys how to win,granted he had to take up more of a role than he wanted IMO. But for you to claim these things about Jordan for the reasons you do are errornous to say the least.
Good point, Dre. If Jordan was all for the money, he wouldn't have donated $100,000 to the 9/11 relief fund, and the rest of his money went to other funds around the nation...which, by the way, his salary was the veteran's minimum (unless someone proves me wrong) for $1 million his first year.
This is what I posted in the G.O.A.T. thread... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Despite the fact that my handle is derived from MJ, I have this to say: The answer is there is no answer. Wilt, Oscar, Michael, Bill- all are great players in their own right. How can we compare them? Titles? Well, Bill has that then. Points scored in a career? Jabbar has that. Highest scoring average in a season? Wilt has that then. Career points per game? Jordan has that. Averaging a triple double for a season? Oscar has that. The point is each player has a very legitimate case for being considered the GOAT. There is no way anyone can honestly sit there and say, without a doubt, that one player is deserving of being the GOAT. </div>
imo...stats alone arent what make great players. its stats and intangibles...and MJ has wilt beat by a mile. aside from the fact that money won more titles...he also transcended the sport. everyone seems to forget exactly what MJ did for the game of basketball...he helped build the success it enjoys today. he drew people to the sport. MJ TRANSCENDED bball. that is what makes him the goat and the whole tired argument about jordan not being able to win without pip is just wack. give it up...you could say the same about ANY championship team...bird wouldnt have won without mchale...magic wouldnt have won without kareem....etc..etc. discussing hypothetical situations is pointless...fact of the matter is, jordan was the man, and pip played as well as he did because he was playing with the best player in the game at that time, would the bulls have won with someone else filling pips spot? impossible to tell, so no point in arguing it. people say "jordan would never have won without pip" how the hell do you know? you dont...so drop it. wack argument
