But stats are always brought up when MJ idolizers say he is the best ever. "BEST SCORING AVERAGE IN THE NBA"........ "6 TITLES" blah blah blah........SO they use stats when it suits them
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm sorry but the defense in MJ's heyday by far exceeds todays defense so using that as any kind barometer comparing players is null and void. back then..Jordan was guarded by players the like of sidney moncrief,joe dumars,xavier mcdaniel,mychal thompson and he drove the lane on players like rick mahorn,bill lambeer,hakeem olajuwon,david robinson,patrick ewing,charles oakley and the list goes on. comparing defensive eras most definetly goes to michael jordan.</div> Defense is the same/better now adays. You are just naming great/tall players. Just look at Come Fly with me...It's like the defense is on slowmotion and Jordan is just breezing through. The defense looked like it had more holes than swiss cheese. You can't even drive into the lane without getting fouled now adays. I think team defense in general is better, and the fact that players today are athletically better (Bird and ainge..guarding Jordan, who is like 10x faster then them...they lost the game too). I think it's a little bit harder now adays to get into the lane and do an air reverse whenever you feel like it, because you're gonna get pounded. It's just when you look back, things seem a lot better (High School, Christmas, etc.) We have great defense now too...Nets, Pacers, Pistons (I wonder how they won..hmm)Spurs, etc. I say in 10 years we will be like, man he had to get through artest, Jermaine Oneal, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Shaq, C-Webb, Yao Ming, etc. It's all the same. Especially, we get new surprises every year (trades, rookie phenoms, etc.) NBA it's FAN-TASTIC...you gotta love it...even TODAY...and SHOULD GET BETTER... F*** THE ZONE...and OVERDRIBBLING (francis!) :thumbsdow I love this game :thumbsup: Hakeem/dream should've played the Bulls in the finals (damn stockton with the lucky 3!).... I bet you the 99-00 Lakers would beat the Bulls (SHAQ!) What if Mike was on the WEST, don't think so, you could argue that he beat those teams in the Finals, but they barely got away, usually in game 6s. C'mon the Worthy/Scott were injured...they were gettin' old and the bulls were young and athletic The "robots" from the bench saved them in 92. KJ got fouled in 93, no call. Refs licked Mike's ass all the time. NOTE: looking at the box scores for their games..like 4 people would be in double figs. Even when Mike went from 8/24 he would hit like 10 freethrows, and Pippen and the robots would make up for those missed shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Prodigy:</div><div class="quote_post">Defense is the same/better now adays. You are just naming great/tall players. Just look at Come Fly with me...It's like the defense is on slowmotion and Jordan is just breezing through. The defense looked like it had more holes than swiss cheese.</div> Give me a break. You are basing an opinion of defense as a whole at the time on a highlight video? That is not a valid opinion at all if thats the case. Defense in the 80's/90's was far superior for several reasons but I'll just give you the two biggest. 1.The game stressed fundamentals. Most players had at least 3 years of college and didn't have to rely on athletic ability alone. They were well versed in the fundamentals and actually knew how to play defense. 2.The game then was much more a team game. Now it's a one-on-one isolation type game where taking your man one on one is what happens. And I use the names that are taller? LMAO Give me a break playa. You are embarrasing yourself in this argument because of your lack of knowledge about the previous era of basketball. Ask any longtime basketball fan or any NBA coach how the NBA today stacks up with the NBA of that previous era and they'll tell you no contest. Just watch TNT during basketball season and Barkley says it all..the basketball they play stinks. The product they put on the floor is poor at best and thats all because of a lack of fundamentals and an over-reliance on the one on one game. Get yourself some new arguments,actually know about the previous era of the game and come back and maybe we can have an intellectual discussion about this,until then its a moot point.
More about Jordan and the Bias of the Media. How they help create Jordan into the "BEST EVER" in everything....... I LOVE THIS GUY.
I dont think anybody should say MJ is the greatest thatl ever play like I hear all the time. He was great but we dont no maybe Devin Harris(just as an example) could be the best. We dont know what the future holds. MJ is the greatest of OUR TIME is ok but not the best ever. There is bound to be another MJ someday maybe in 10 or 20 years we dont know. Why cant we just stick to MJ was great. Not There will never be another MJ or something like that. THERE WILL BE ANOTHER MJ SOMEDAY!!!!!!!!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">Give me a break. You are basing an opinion of defense as a whole at the time on a highlight video? That is not a valid opinion at all if thats the case. Defense in the 80's/90's was far superior for several reasons but I'll just give you the two biggest. 1.The game stressed fundamentals. Most players had at least 3 years of college and didn't have to rely on athletic ability alone. They were well versed in the fundamentals and actually knew how to play defense. 2.The game then was much more a team game. Now it's a one-on-one isolation type game where taking your man one on one is what happens. And I use the names that are taller? LMAO Give me a break playa. You are embarrasing yourself in this argument because of your lack of knowledge about the previous era of basketball. Ask any longtime basketball fan or any NBA coach how the NBA today stacks up with the NBA of that previous era and they'll tell you no contest. Just watch TNT during basketball season and Barkley says it all..the basketball they play stinks. The product they put on the floor is poor at best and thats all because of a lack of fundamentals and an over-reliance on the team game. Get yourself some new arguments,actually know about the previous era of the game and come back and maybe we can have an intellectual discussion about this,until then its a moot point. </div> I was talking about team defense. Yeah, they had great fundamentals, and of course the one-on-one matchups are killing the game. But if every one wasn't in the whole "I wanna be like Mike" thing, you wouldn't have these one on one matchups, trying to get on those high-light reels. Because every body was dilluted by the "glitter and gold" I respect your opinion, but you didn't even read my post clearly. I admit, the post wasn't that good because I was in a hurry, but just see mah point (Jordan...not todays NBA). Todays all-stars can compete with the all-stars back then, but "teams" in general, because of fundamentals and perfect chem., the old-school players have a hand over todays "teams", but the superstars of today can compete with yesterday's players, face it, they all play good basketball. ITS the $$$ messing up the game. It's messing up the work ethic. Companies are trying to make little "Mikes" to get more $$$ for their companies. Kids are gettin' sponsored by And1, Adidas, Nike, Reebok, etc. at early ages, think they have a future in it, but end up crashing their lives because of their lack of edu. You have all these teenagers skippin' college to make it to the pros. Companies already have their contracts signed with the player even before they played in a single professional game (LBJ, they invested in so much, that's a huge risk, but it worked, just hope he don't break a leg, ya know). It's more about the tatoos, cornrows, diamonds, all the other bling bling (I wonder why real "rap" is diminishing). Just look at the covers of mag./ads about b-ball 10-15 years ago today. First, it was a player in action (dunking) or smiling with a ball or something. Now it's a dude giving a cold stare at the camera with tons of chains, and jewelry covering his body, it's the street cred. Rodman got paid way more after being the "crazy/bad ass". It's all $$$$. I dunno man, these kids, they get fouled during their 360 windmill dunks, and miss their freethrows every time man. It's not a sport no more, it's a bussiness/entertainment. (Not talking about the big names, just a few, sittin' on the bench, thinking, I shoulda gone to college). I hope the future gets better, and I dunno about that. I don't want to hear about low-scoring, one-on-matchups, people not going to practices, coming late to the games, sitting out because they have a stomachache, etc. any more. I'm tired of this shit. All that special treatment to the players, just makes em even more big headed. That's what happends when things get mainstream, things just fall apart, look at hip-hop, it selling, but it's getting sorrier as hell. BottomLine: It's $$$/Greed/power, it decays our society, look at our president. Hoping to hear from ya. (Ill give you a personal message, if you want to talk more thoroughly, on these subjects)
To me there is no argument,MJ is the best that has ever played he has accomplished almost everything you name it,he was a great scorer not a bad rebounder,and a defensive player of the year. Kobe Bryant has three rings but lets see how many rings he gets know that Shaq is gone it is already proven that the Lakers played a lot worse when Shaq wasnt playing ,so I dont think Kobe will getting any more championships for a while. I also say that Jordan made some of the players around him better but I dont think Kobe does that.
one thing. why on earth do you guys put any creedence into what John Salley says? I think,and have always thought,he holds a grudge against Mike for knocking them out of a chance of a three-peat. Things John Salley has said..Jordan couldn't dribble...Jordan couldn't pass..all the things like that is total bunk. That was his reasons for rating Magic ahead of Jordan. Anyone who knows one iota about Jordan knows those are fallacies. Using John Salley's comments to back up anything is questionable at best.
according to bob costas it's shaq. Let's just say MJ is best guard ever. Since comparing basketball players is like comparing a left fielder with a short stop defensively. It's not like offense in baseball, everyone does the same thing, hit for average and/or power.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">one thing. why on earth do you guys put any creedence into what John Salley says? I think,and have always thought,he holds a grudge against Mike for knocking them out of a chance of a three-peat. Things John Salley has said..Jordan couldn't dribble...Jordan couldn't pass..all the things like that is total bunk. That was his reasons for rating Magic ahead of Jordan. Anyone who knows one iota about Jordan knows those are fallacies. Using John Salley's comments to back up anything is questionable at best.</div> it's hilarious that he critisizes Jordan's skills and this is coming from a player who has never averaged more than 10 points in their career.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">one thing. why on earth do you guys put any creedence into what John Salley says? I think,and have always thought,he holds a grudge against Mike for knocking them out of a chance of a three-peat. Things John Salley has said..Jordan couldn't dribble...Jordan couldn't pass..all the things like that is total bunk. That was his reasons for rating Magic ahead of Jordan. Anyone who knows one iota about Jordan knows those are fallacies. Using John Salley's comments to back up anything is questionable at best.</div> That's just my sig....Why would he hold a grudge when he won rings with Mike? Anyways, that's his opinion. He played/practiced with them, and personally knows both of them, so I ain't the judge to that, neither are you. Anyways, the losers are thinking "Mj beat magic in 91" That is BS! Worthy and Byron Scott were injured! And Scottie guarded Magic in 91 throuhout most of the time, people cover it up by "MJ needed to rest on defense, so he can execure offensively" In general: Most of Jordans blocks/steals come from behind, while Pippen did all the dirty work, we forget that Pippen was on the dreamteam, and he is Ron Artests and T-mac combined. We also forget the role players. Jordan would be double teamed, Then he would kick it out to these robotic 95% shooters in each corner (BJ, Kerr, PAxson, Judd, Hodges, Kukoc, etc.) He also had a rebounding nut later on and another shooter by the name of Tony Kukoc. Jordan was good, but people forget the loads of help he got. And the fact that he was the salesman of the NBA, he got away from fouls, and they would sometimes not call his, or call a fould when not needed. He was amazing though, but I think he travelled the same amount he spent time in the air. I dunno if you have seen the ultimate collection, Bird, Magic, and Jordan were doing a photo shoot, and Magic said "Don't get too cose to Michael, they might call a foul". He also had bad nights too, or some times he would play "great" he would put up like 40 points, sounds good don't it. But he would be like 15/41 and 10/12 from the freethrow line. And people go wow! FORTY POINTS! GOD DAMN! The east was not as good as the west, and the Bulls really did not have any competition in the east. The western teams were so much better. I also believed KJ got fouled in 93, and they didn't call it, and that was crucial. Remember in 92, when Pippen and Jordan sat on the bench, and the robots put them back in the game. Remember when Jordan/Pippen picked on the slow/unathletic Jazz. There wasn't no real competition in the east, neither. They would barely get away, everytime, always game 6. It's not like they creamed in all 6 years. I bet those teams, in the reg. season always beat them. Michael Jordan was blown up, he was an ad for the NBA, and it worked. If you hear "Mj is the greatest of all time...He's unbelievable" all time your gonna be like hmm...yeah he's amazing, which he was, but he wasn't god. 63pts! Wow, he was double teamed by 2 small white guys! The CAVS were horrible. The same thing is going on with LBJ, it's the hype, it makes him better than he is. His highlights are amazing! The twist and turns. Half of them are luck. You notice this when you watch a "Real game" from start to finish. You see him missing shots, missing crazy layups, and occasionally causing turnovers. He would barely make those impossible shots. We all witnessed that when he came back. MJ was the right place at the right time Sure, MJ is offensively/defensively better. Would cream MAGIC one on one. But having MAGIC makes a team better, and he has a better attitude, because Mike's ego is larger than his nostrils. Magic had HOFers every where around the court. No look razzle dazzle pass and then dunk. Who knows, if he didn't get AIDS, he couldve prolonged his playing days, and played Michael at his prime. When MJ came in to the league, it seemed as if he were the "newer model" of a basketball player (kinda like the T-1000 from Terminator) while the other players were following the traditional style of play. He also had great oppurtunities, as a rookie, he was to lead the struggling Bulls, meaning take any shot you want, I don't care, the city of Chicago got nothing to lose. I was reading a mag. it ranked top 100 (ain't sure) college players of All-Time. I don't remember what rank Jordan was, but he was in a fairly decent rank, but ranked a little too high for me. See that's his hype. Just because he hit that open shot with 17 sec. left. People forget that James Worthy was the key to the victory, and he is the won who stall the ball at the inbounds just after Jordan hit that shot. I don't think he's all hype. He created the hype him self because of his unique style of play, without realizing it. From his interviews you really tell that he, himself, is amazed with the feedback/hype he got (during his playing days-Ultimate DVD collection). And the NBA and several companies bounced on this. He was the first to do the one-man show, which we see today (probably because of him, who knows). Well, if Mike played today, he would be just like Kobe, AI, VC, T-mac. He won't stand out that much like he did. Or you can look at it from a different point of you, and say with out Mike those players wouldn't exist/be what they are today. A guy like "Mike" was bound to appear in b-ball. It's kinda like he was at the right place at the right time, with corporate conscience coming in, unique, etc. You just got to ask your self: Was he really 10X better than all the other SGs/players? But he had or what it seems like a picure perfect career. Let's just nick name him 1/2 Man 1/2 Gold and Glitter Why is he on my sig.? Because he was good, not god. Two o's not one. Some people get confused. BOTTOMLINE: He was amazing, but he had the right components (teammates, karma, chem., refs, love, etc.) He was the first, and that is why he is the "GOAT", or as some people put it.
Prodigy,man you can stop posting these long winded replies. You are just repeating yourself time after time. Actually watch Mike play,read up on Mike and the era he played in then come back and maybe we can talk. You contradict yourself too much to lend any creedence to what you are saying.
Any more stats and I am going to puke! Wilt never played against aginst Hakeem Shaq Ewing or even The Admiral. I hated the Bulls when Jordan played. But when you talk about the greatest you talk about the clutch. You talk about the big shot! Not Career averages or what side of a defender you where on making steals! Big shot, one play to in it all, MICHAEL JORDAN Period! Pippen was taking none of those shots and is I remember right West was known for clutch shooting not Wilt. Tell me one player you want over jordan with one shot? As a guy who hated the Bulls he always had one more shot in the tank than your team! Why did Barkley never win a title? Isiah's run end? Ewing never win a title? Malone and Stockton never win a title? MJ MJ MJ MJ! Every finals he played in he was MVP. Biggest stage, biggest player!
There are points I argue all the time i think wilt is the greatest most dominant or whatever but shaq is just a less talented version of wilt and look what shaq does. rings dont make a player look at west or baylor. Numbers do matter wilt scored 100 points in a game did mj do that? no mj won 6 rings did wilt ? no . most people blame wilt for not winning more but when he did win everyone looked at him and said why didn't you score more? but everyone looks at mj like hes the greatest. People cant make others belive things so most people grow up thinking mj is the greatest when the truth is there has been 4 players in my opinion better wich are wilt, barkley, bird and magic.
Wilt is simply the greatest, MJ never score 100 points in a game MJ didnt grab down 23,924 in his career MJ didnt grab 23 RPG enough said MJ is second, Wilt is first
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Zero22:</div><div class="quote_post">Wilt is simply the greatest, MJ never score 100 points in a game MJ didnt grab down 23,924 in his career MJ didnt grab 23 RPG enough said MJ is second, Wilt is first</div> Wilt career was great because the competition during the time was weak
competition was not weak in wilts era there were heated rivalrys everywhere wilt went up against russell, kareem abdual jabbar and willis reed
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Answer 21:</div><div class="quote_post">competition was not weak in wilts era there were heated rivalrys everywhere wilt went up against russell, kareem abdual jabbar and willis reed</div> Thats bul cometition was aLOT weaker back then. Kareem wasnt in Wilts era when he scored 50 PPG. Russel was his only "real" rivalry. I sware put Shaq un Wilts place and hell do just a s good if not better. Well he will do berter.
