I'm not all that impressed of the argument that Lebron came straight out of high school. Sure he had a good year but Kobe, McGrady, or Garnett very well could've put up the same kind of numbers if they got as many minutes as LBJ did. They weren't given nearly as many minutes as Lebron. Also, there have been many freshman coming in the league and had good rookie seasons, which is just a one year difference from high school. LeBron was also drafted #1, and with that there are expectations to be an impact player right away. I'm not saying that he didn't have a great rookie season but I'm just playing devil's advocate.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not all that impressed of the argument that Lebron came straight out of high school. Sure he had a good year but Kobe, McGrady, or Garnett very well could've put up the same kind of numbers if they got as many minutes as LBJ did. They weren't given nearly as many minutes as Lebron. Also, there have been many freshman coming in the league and had good rookie seasons, which is just a one year difference from high school.</div>What made Lebron be able to put up those numbers is the fact that he was more physically ready to play immediatly in the NBA. Not to take anything away from T-Mac but I have seen him play in his rookie year and he was not impressive at all, no jump shot, strict reliance on his athleticism, overall lazy work ethic. KG started more at the end of the year but he still was too raw to start right off the bat. Kobe on the other hand was just like T-Mac. He just was not ready to play as a rookie because he was not good enough yet. The only other highschooler that I know of that was ready to play right away was Amare Stoudamire. This is aside from the original argument but minutes are not the only thing that seperates Lebrons rookie season from the other aforementioned players. Also make note of the fact that he started his NBA career playing the most difficult position at the point guard....and he was successful at it. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not saying that he didn't have a great rookie season but I'm just playing devil's advocate.</div>But the question is: Is Lebrons rookie season better than Vince's? If you say no to that question than we have something to talk about.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">LBJ had a better rookie year, VC was more exciting (dunks wise, explosiveness wise) VC led the raps to the 9th spot i believe.... statistically, LBJ is better in almost every category (except maybe blocks) Vince Carter didn't even have HALF the hype that Lebron had, infact, he didn't hit it big till the allstar weekend in his 2nd year...he was seldomnly known but didnt hit superstardom till that weekend....his rookie was a dunk fest, it was amazing to watch those games cause he'd do something exciting EVERY game....it was usually driving the lane or midrange J's.... he led the raptors from a 16-66 record to playoff contention... but i think lebron had a better year....he had muc much much more expectations, so many people that thought he'd fail as well, or wanted to see him fail this is a kid makign the leap from HIGHSCHOOL and avging a 20-5-5 season KG didnt do that, Kobe didnt do that nor did any of the highschoolers that are allstars today hes a first and that right there should set him apart not to mention all the pressure on him i find his game awkward but its only his first year and everyone depends on thier explosiveness more then anythign in thier first year in the years to come he will develop a great overall game and this is why hes so hyped up he lived up the the hype</div> VC had a way better rookie season than Lebron....how can u say tha vince just dunked and shot mid-range wen bron basically did the same thing...i didnt see bron knocking down 3's. Bron missed 28 straight 3 pointers in his rookie season! Vince had more clutch than lebron, did lebron even hit a clutch shot before! And Bron does the same dunks all the time! VC posterized Mutumbo, Walter Mcgarthy, Chris Mullin and Matt Hapring in his rookie season and the list goes on!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> But the question is: Is Lebrons rookie season better than Vince's? If you say no to that question than we have something to talk about. </div> I would say his rookie season was slightly better than Vince's but in no way was it significantly better. I just judge on stats and how well they played and not if they came out of high school or whatever. You can't judge external factors like that because who's to say that Yao didn't have a tougher situation than LeBron when he came here all the way from China and having to adjust to America and American basketball? (just as an example). I don't care what kind of a situation they were in, the most important thing is how they played and on that criteria alone, LeBron's season was better than Vince's but not by much. But I will say this: as I mentioned in a previous post, Damon Stoudamire's rookie season was better than LeBron's: 19.0 ppg 9.3 apg 4.0 rpg
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">I would say his rookie season was slightly better than Vince's but in no way was it significantly better. </div> Why not? He averaged 20, 5 and 5 his first year in the league. Carter was only able to do that in his 5th year in the league. I'm in no ways disparaging Carter but you have to realize that Lebron was just the better rookie by far. He did it in stats and he did it in the win/loss record as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">But I will say this: as I mentioned in a previous post, Damon Stoudamire's rookie season was better than LeBron's: 19.0 ppg 9.3 apg 4.0 rpg</div>How was Damon's season better? His job was to man the point for the Raptors as well as be the 1st option on offense. CAn you argue that Lebron had more blocks than him then? Lebron was only the point guard for half a season, then he switched over to the 2 thus bringin down his assist stats. What was Damon's record though? He still had a worse record and worse stat line than Lebron did. If you are not counting external factors, I would conclude that he had a better rookie season than both Carter and Stoudamire based on stats and win/loss record and.....the fact that he just came out of highschool.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> What was Damon's record though? He still had a worse record and worse stat line than Lebron did. If you are not counting external factors, I would conclude that he had a better rookie season than both Carter and Stoudamire based on stats and win/loss record and.....the fact that he just came out of highschool.</div> How is LeBron's stat line better than Stoudamire's? LeBron +1.9 PPG -4.4 APG +1.5 RPG Stoudamire -1.9 PPG +4.4 APG -1.5 RPG If you consider the teammates that Stoudamire had to play with, especially a team that is in the first year of expansion than Stoudamire should have the more difficult time out of the two getting assists but he surpassed LeBron in that category by a fair margin. Since the ppg and rpg are pretty much equal, isn't the category most important to a point guard the assists? You mention the win/loss record but LeBron had much better teammates than Stoudamire his first season. LeBron had Ilgauskas (all-star), Boozer (future all-star) and he played with Ricky Davis for a while who is a very capable offensive player. Who did Stoudamire have - Willie Anderson, Tony Massenburg, Zan Tabak, Carlos Rogers, Acie Earl, need I go on? Not one of these players were even close to being all-star calibre.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">How is LeBron's stat line better than Stoudamire's? LeBron +1.9 PPG -4.4 APG +1.5 RPG Stoudamire -1.9 PPG +4.4 APG -1.5 RPG</div>How can you read me those stat lines when you know that Stoudamire was the first option on offense as well as the primary distributor on the RAptors team. Hell, he was the Raptors team. Compared to Lebron's line I am actually surprised that Lebron averaged so much considering he was playing with 3 other talented men on the court. Damon was the Raptors offense at the time, it was him or bust. That is why he averaged so much. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">If you consider the teammates that Stoudamire had to play with, especially a team that is in the first year of expansion than Stoudamire should have the more difficult time out of the two getting assists but he surpassed LeBron in that category by a fair margin. Since the ppg and rpg are pretty much equal, isn't the category most important to a point guard the assists?</div>Yes and Lebron was the 1 for how long in the season? If he played the whole season as the 1 I would expect his assist line to increase dramatically. Like I stated before, Stoudamire was the entire Raptors offense. His stats are overblown and you can even see that with Portland right now. If Stoudamire is the #1 option on offense he will average you the 19 9 and 4. Put him in a situation like Lebrons or his current situation in Portland you can see that he would not be able to sustain those averages on a regular basis because he is not the #1 option. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">You mention the win/loss record but LeBron had much better teammates than Stoudamire his first season. LeBron had Ilgauskas (all-star), Boozer (future all-star) and he played with Ricky Davis for a while who is a very capable offensive player. Who did Stoudamire have - Willie Anderson, Tony Massenburg, Zan Tabak, Carlos Rogers, Acie Earl, need I go on? Not one of these players were even close to being all-star calibre.</div>True Lebron's record is attributed to his fellow players, but Stoudamires rookie stats are attributed to his players as well <font size="1">(or lack thereof)</font> <font size="1"></font> <font size="1">BTW when did this turn into a Lebron and Damon Stoudamire thread? Let's not even go there, we all know Damon cannot compare whatsoever to Lebron.</font>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">How can you read me those stat lines when you know that Stoudamire was the first option on offense as well as the primary distributor on the RAptors team. Hell, he was the Raptors team. Compared to Lebron's line I am actually surprised that Lebron averaged so much considering he was playing with 3 other talented men on the court. Damon was the Raptors offense at the time, it was him or bust. That is why he averaged so much. </div> Well if you know and I know that Damon was the whole Raptors team, what do you think that opposing teams are going to do against him. They're going to double team him and develop strategies solely based on how to stop him because if you stop him than you stop the Raptors. Think of how much he would have to go through on a nightly basis just to get his shots off and have a decent night when the whole defense is focused on you. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yes and Lebron was the 1 for how long in the season? If he played the whole season as the 1 I would expect his assist line to increase dramatically. Like I stated before, Stoudamire was the entire Raptors offense. His stats are overblown and you can even see that with Portland right now. If Stoudamire is the #1 option on offense he will average you the 19 9 and 4. Put him in a situation like Lebrons or his current situation in Portland you can see that he would not be able to sustain those averages on a regular basis because he is not the #1 option. </div> You can also make the argument that if Stoudamire had LeBron's teammates he would have a hell of a lot more assists then he ended up with. How many times did he pass to someone only for them to miss the shot because they sucked? Getting points on a crappy team is one thing but avaeraging a decent amount of assists with crappy teammates is another. As for Portland, I am only looking at their rookie seasons and not how he's playing now. Stoudamire took that fat contract and stopped working. He also got into drugs and stuff which undoubtedly affected his oncourt performance so anything he did in Portland is pretty much a non-factor. And As I recall, LeBron didn't even average the 9 assists while he was playing the 1. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> True Lebron's record is attributed to his fellow players, but Stoudamires rookie stats are attributed to his players as well <font size="1">(or lack thereof)</font> <font size="1"></font> <font size="1">BTW when did this turn into a Lebron and Damon Stoudamire thread? Let's not even go there, we all know Damon cannot compare whatsoever to Lebron.</font></div> I'm not comparing LeBron and Damon, the point of our whole argument was who had the better rookie season and not who is the better player or who will be a better player.
BTW here is a correction on one of the stats you dropped: <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">How is LeBron's stat line better than Stoudamire's? LeBron +1.9 PPG -4.4 APG +1.5 RPG Stoudamire -1.9 PPG +4.4 APG -1.5 RPG </div> Lebron averaged 5.9 assists to Damons 9.3 and if I'm correct the difference is only -3.4, not like it makes that much of a difference but it helps. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">Well if you know and I know that Damon was the whole Raptors team, what do you think that opposing teams are going to do against him. They're going to double team him and develop strategies solely based on how to stop him because if you stop him than you stop the Raptors. Think of how much he would have to go through on a nightly basis just to get his shots off and have a decent night when the whole defense is focused on you. </div>Why would teams double team a guy who is distributing the ball to his teammates? Probably due to those double teams he got more assists out of those easy passes. In Stoudamires first year he did it all for Toronto but in his second year defences did exactly what you said by doubling him and that dropped down his FG% from a paltry .420 to an even worse .401. If you saw Stoudamire when he played you know that defences could not play up on him because of his pull up jumpers from the 3 point line and the fact that he could drive to the bucket and create opportunities. I compare Stoudamire's situation to Ricky Davis' season in Cleveland when Lebron wasn't there. He put up some major stats in that time because he was the #1, #2 and #3 option on offense. You can't tell me that you can't pad your stats by being the first option, double teams or no double teams. If you see in his third year where he was playing with Portland and their numerous stars you can see that his stats dropped dramatically from 20 points a game to 13 and 9 assists to 5. That is an example of what happens when he plays with talent. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">You can also make the argument that if Stoudamire had LeBron's teammates he would have a hell of a lot more assists then he ended up with. How many times did he pass to someone only for them to miss the shot because they sucked? Getting points on a crappy team is one thing but avaeraging a decent amount of assists with crappy teammates is another. As for Portland, I am only looking at their rookie seasons and not how he's playing now. Stoudamire took that fat contract and stopped working. He also got into drugs and stuff which undoubtedly affected his oncourt performance so anything he did in Portland is pretty much a non-factor.</div>Then how can you explain his huge drop in assists when he was traded to Portland? He had better talent than Lebron had in Cleveland and his stats dropped...big time. To say that he did drugs and stopped working is totally based on what you hear in the newspapers. If I recall he actually started for the Portland team that ALMOST beat the Lakers in the Western Conference finals. I don't think drugs and laziness have anything to do with his drop in stats. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">And As I recall, LeBron didn't even average the 9 assists while he was playing the 1. </div>He was not averaging 9 assists, it was more like 7 to 8. Is it that much of a drop from Stoudamires assist stats? Can I argue then that he had 3x as many blocks that Stoudamire had? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not comparing LeBron and Damon, the point of our whole argument was who had the better rookie season and not who is the better player or who will be a better player.</div>Actually the point of this whole thread was about whether or not VC had a better rookie season than Lebron. Even if you said that Stoudamire had a better rookie season I still have to disagree. If you want we can bring this to a public forum and see what the consensus says.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">BTW here is a correction on one of the stats you dropped: Lebron averaged 5.9 assists to Damons 9.3 and if I'm correct the difference is only -3.4, not like it makes that much of a difference but it helps. </div> my bad, but I still fail to see how LeBron's stats line is better than Damon's. If anything they are pretty much equal. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> Why would teams double team a guy who is distributing the ball to his teammates? Probably due to those double teams he got more assists out of those easy passes. In Stoudamires first year he did it all for Toronto but in his second year defences did exactly what you said by doubling him and that dropped down his FG% from a paltry .420 to an even worse .401. If you saw Stoudamire when he played you know that defences could not play up on him because of his pull up jumpers from the 3 point line and the fact that he could drive to the bucket and create opportunities. I compare Stoudamire's situation to Ricky Davis' season in Cleveland when Lebron wasn't there. He put up some major stats in that time because he was the #1, #2 and #3 option on offense. You can't tell me that you can't pad your stats by being the first option, double teams or no double teams. </div> If you mean padding stats like ppg on a bad team then yes. But I was talking about assists per game and padding assists on a bad team is difficult to say the least. You can't tell me it wasn't difficult averaging 9.3 apg on a real bad team where you have no one decent to pass to. Just take a look at the assist leaders of last season: 1. J. Kidd NJN 9.2 (playoff team) 2. S. Marbury NYK 8.9 (playoff team) 3. S. Nash DAL 8.8 (playoff team) 4. B. Davis NOR 7.5 (playoff team) 5. S. Cassell MIN 7.3 (playoff team) 6. E. Snow PHI 6.9 (non-playoff team) 7. J. Williams MEM 6.8 (playoff team) 8. K. Hinrich CHI 6.8 (non-playoff team) 9. S. Francis HOU 6.2 (playoff team) 10. J. McInnis CLE 6.1 (non-playoff team) take a look at the top 6 players on that list and you'll notice that every single one of them played for a very good team, which made the playoffs. Damon had 9.3 apg and that was for a non-playoff expansion team. You can see for yourself how difficult it is to have good assist number on a bad team. Even the players that were on non-playoff teams on that list have better teammates then Damon did that year. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> If you see in his third year where he was playing with Portland and their numerous stars you can see that his stats dropped dramatically from 20 points a game to 13 and 9 assists to 5. That is an example of what happens when he plays with talent. Then how can you explain his huge drop in assists when he was traded to Portland? He had better talent than Lebron had in Cleveland and his stats dropped...big time. </div> Immediately after he was traded to Portland (the last 22 games of the season) he average 8.2 AST in less minutes than he had with Toronto. I don't see how that is a huge dropoff. This huge drop off in stats, I attribute to playing time. If you check his minutes per game, they dropped from 42 with Toronto to low 30's with Portland. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> To say that he did drugs and stopped working is totally based on what you hear in the newspapers. If I recall he actually started for the Portland team that ALMOST beat the Lakers in the Western Conference finals. I don't think drugs and laziness have anything to do with his drop in stats. He was not averaging 9 assists, it was more like 7 to 8. Is it that much of a drop from Stoudamires assist stats? Can I argue then that he had 3x as many blocks that Stoudamire had? </div> He started for Portland but as I mentioned before, his playing time was severly decreased from the time he played for Toronto. What's the point of bringing up blocks? Damon was and still is one of the shortest and smallest players in the league. Do you really think they have equal opportunities to block shots? Height or stature does not affect a stat like assists like it does blocks. Shawn Bradley is consistently in the leaders of block shots in the league, so do you attribute this to his defensive ability or to his height? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> Actually the point of this whole thread was about whether or not VC had a better rookie season than Lebron. Even if you said that Stoudamire had a better rookie season I still have to disagree. If you want we can bring this to a public forum and see what the consensus says.</div> There's no point in putting this in a public forum since people will make their pick solely on popularity. Stoudamire has a history of drug use and problems with the law, which has severly hurt his reputation. Back when he was with the Raptors, his popularity soared because people knew that he had to make up his lack of height with determination and will. That is not the case anymore. You know and I know that people are going to judge the player's history and not base it on their performance in their rookie seasons. However if someone were to post just the stats from the rookie seasons, without the players they are attributed to, do you think that people are going to say that LeBron's season was without question better than Damon's?
I'm not gonna get involved in this anymore than I already have... I just wanna say that chances are... Damon's been using the same drugs before and after that "fat contract." (you don't need millions to buy weed)
Sorry to rehash old arguements but I digress.... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">my bad, but I still fail to see how LeBron's stats line is better than Damon's. If anything they are pretty much equal.</div>You can say that their stat totals are equal, but we can also say that about enough people who did well in their rookie seasons. The plain fact is: Lebron season was much better than Stoudamires if you include his stats,the fact that he came straight out of highschool and his overall impact on the NBA, which is why I think Carter's rookie season was mentioned in the first place. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">If you mean padding stats like ppg on a bad team then yes. But I was talking about assists per game and padding assists on a bad team is difficult to say the least. You can't tell me it wasn't difficult averaging 9.3 apg on a real bad team where you have no one decent to pass to. Just take a look at the assist leaders of last season: 1. J. Kidd NJN 9.2 (playoff team) 2. S. Marbury NYK 8.9 (playoff team) 3. S. Nash DAL 8.8 (playoff team) 4. B. Davis NOR 7.5 (playoff team) 5. S. Cassell MIN 7.3 (playoff team) 6. E. Snow PHI 6.9 (non-playoff team) 7. J. Williams MEM 6.8 (playoff team) 8. K. Hinrich CHI 6.8 (non-playoff team) 9. S. Francis HOU 6.2 (playoff team) 10. J. McInnis CLE 6.1 (non-playoff team) take a look at the top 6 players on that list and you'll notice that every single one of them played for a very good team, which made the playoffs. Damon had 9.3 apg and that was for a non-playoff expansion team. You can see for yourself how difficult it is to have good assist number on a bad team. Even the players that were on non-playoff teams on that list have better teammates then Damon did that year.</div>Have you heard of a guy named Andre Miller? As I recall Cleveland was the worst team when he was there but still managed to lead the league in assists. It's not like it's impossible to do. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post">Immediately after he was traded to Portland (the last 22 games of the season) he average 8.2 AST in less minutes than he had with Toronto. I don't see how that is a huge dropoff. This huge drop off in stats, I attribute to playing time. If you check his minutes per game, they dropped from 42 with Toronto to low 30's with Portland.</div>It just goes to show that he had the minutes and playing time in Toronto to have his stats. If he were not the #1 option on Toronto I would expect to see him averaging exactly what he is right now. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post"> What's the point of bringing up blocks? Damon was and still is one of the shortest and smallest players in the league. Do you really think they have equal opportunities to block shots? Height or stature does not affect a stat like assists like it does blocks. Shawn Bradley is consistently in the leaders of block shots in the league, so do you attribute this to his defensive ability or to his height? </div>You are the one basing your entire argument on Statistics so i give you a stat which Stoudamire lacked. Not to say anything else but that stats do not make ones rookie season as good (or better) than anothers. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post"> There's no point in putting this in a public forum since people will make their pick solely on popularity. Stoudamire has a history of drug use and problems with the law, which has severly hurt his reputation. Back when he was with the Raptors, his popularity soared because people knew that he had to make up his lack of height with determination and will. That is not the case anymore.</div>This has nothing to do with reputation. It has to do with who had a better season. Based on impact on the league, stats and the fact that he came directly from highschool I would say that Lebron had the better season than both Vince and Damon. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Eclipse:</div><div class="quote_post"> You know and I know that people are going to judge the player's history and not base it on their performance in their rookie seasons. However if someone were to post just the stats from the rookie seasons, without the players they are attributed to, do you think that people are going to say that LeBron's season was without question better than Damon's?</div>That is why we don't base our arguments solely on stats.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but I think it's hard to compare Lebron's rookie season to anyone else's because not only did he come straight from high school, but he was being played MUCH harder than any other rookie coming into the league. So this puts him at a much greater disadvantage than all other rookies because other players such as VC weren't being defended as tough as they were defending Lebron. No one really took VC seriously in his rookie year till a few months into season and even then they still wouldn't focus as much on him as they did with Lebron.
and i pick....NONE OF THE ABOVE...because melo had the best rookie year...he made the playoffs and got to play extra games...even though he did get some help...der and nene...
Actually about Lebron's assists, when he was playing point he was only averaging about 6.1 assists a game, not 7 or 8.
^So do you think that Stoudamire had a better rookie season than Lebron did? That is the question. <font size="1">Actually the real question was whether or not VC had a better rookie season than Lebron.....</font>
