<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">That is true, yes, but I think the point that realbneal has been trying to make this whole time is that Laker fans should look forward to a Shaq-less season. no more whining about not touching the ball, no more waiting for the big fella to drag himself up the floor, no more Kobe-Shaq feuds within the own team. No more drama. No one is discrediting Shaq, Shaq deserves almost all the praises for the 3 championships. But it's time to move on. Forget Shaq, he's on the downpath of his career while Kobe is moving up and can only improve while Shaq is slowly but surely declining. That is the main point of this thread. The Lakers still can do well, there's no way can say "losing him means nothing positive" for Laker fans. That's bull. That's like Pistons fans saying "losing Stackhouse for Rip was nothign positive"....you don't know what's going to happen with this Laker team. They might lost out in the playoffs for a couple of years but In my opinion, they will be at the top again in the near future.</div> The Kobe vs. Shaq drama just needed to end, and now it's finally over. Actually yes, this entire debate started because people were discrediting Shaq. Respect the man and what he's done for the Laker franchise, and move on with a positive note.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">That is true, yes, but I think the point that realbneal has been trying to make this whole time is that Laker fans should look forward to a Shaq-less season. no more whining about not touching the ball, no more waiting for the big fella to drag himself up the floor, no more Kobe-Shaq feuds within the own team. No more drama. No one is discrediting Shaq, Shaq deserves almost all the praises for the 3 championships. But it's time to move on. Forget Shaq, he's on the downpath of his career while Kobe is moving up and can only improve while Shaq is slowly but surely declining. That is the main point of this thread. The Lakers still can do well, there's no way can say "losing him means nothing positive" for Laker fans. That's bull. That's like Pistons fans saying "losing Stackhouse for Rip was nothing positive"....There were plenty of people upset about that trade probably, but two years later, the Pistons are world champions...Everyone has this feeling the Lakers will fail without Shaq, but you don't know that? Who would have thought that Rip would be a pivotal part of the Pistons championship run? All I'm saying is that you don't know what's going to happen with this Laker team. They might lost out in the playoffs for a couple of years but In my opinion, they will be at the top again in the near future.</div> OMG thanks...now I can go eat lunch.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">That is true, yes, but I think the point that realbneal has been trying to make this whole time is that Laker fans should look forward to a Shaq-less season. no more whining about not touching the ball, no more waiting for the big fella to drag himself up the floor, no more Kobe-Shaq feuds within the own team. No more drama. No one is discrediting Shaq, Shaq deserves almost all the praises for the 3 championships. But it's time to move on. Forget Shaq, he's on the downpath of his career while Kobe is moving up and can only improve while Shaq is slowly but surely declining. That is the main point of this thread. The Lakers still can do well, there's no way can say "losing him means nothing positive" for Laker fans. That's bull. That's like Pistons fans saying "losing Stackhouse for Rip was nothing positive"....There were plenty of people upset about that trade probably, but two years later, the Pistons are world champions...Everyone has this feeling the Lakers will fail without Shaq, but you don't know that? Who would have thought that Rip would be a pivotal part of the Pistons championship run? All I'm saying is that you don't know what's going to happen with this Laker team. They might lost out in the playoffs for a couple of years but In my opinion, they will be at the top again in the near future.</div> nah wasn't saying that. I was saying that enough credit wasn't given to Shaq by these guys for past success. Kobe may have come on in the last 3 seasons or so but the first two Championships were won primarily because of the Diesel. That's my whole contention,the largest portion of the Lakers on-court success in the new Millenium<?> is because of Shaq..that much is inarguable.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">I think he would. Look at Kobe's stats the first two championship season. It gives to reason that Shaq could have won a title with someone other than Kobe at the 2 guard. Kobe had yet to come into his own those two seasons and wasn't yet the player he would become. Plug another good shooting guard into that slot and its safe to say it would have netted the same result. </div> I disagree with you there Dre ... In their first championship run, they squeked out of the Western Conference with the ever so slightest margin. If you recall, Portland took them to the 7th game and held an 18pt lead, only to lose it in the 4th. I truly believe that if u subtract any guy (not just Kobe) from that team (i.e. Shaw, Fisher, Harper, Kobe etc...), and replaced them with similar "quality," you would have had a different result. It was just one of those magical series, and call me crazy for using this as an argument, but subtracting one of those players (including kobe) changes the karma of that series. The clutch shots, the clutch defensive plays during that series (especially in the last game) were once in a blue moon ... Shaw was playing out of his mind, Fisher was hitting, Harper had that game winner in game 3, and Kobe was hitting big shots as well. And although Kobe had yet to "come into his own," I don't think there was a shooting guard at the time that could give Pippen as much trouble as he did in that series.. (granted Pip had lost a step by then, he was still a premier defender that year) In their second title run, they swept through the playoffs so easily, perhaps u can make an argument that they didn't need Kobe...however, u can't really ignore the fact that he averaged <u>30 ppg 7 rpg 6 apg</u> during those enitre playoffs, so its really hard to say ... I'm not saying this to discredit Shaq, nor am I saying this to hype up Kobe. I'm one of those ppl who believed that they needed each other (to win titles), and both men will find that out this upcoming season. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">nah wasn't saying that. I was saying that enough credit wasn't given to Shaq by these guys for past success. Kobe may have come on in the last 3 seasons or so but the first two Championships were won primarily because of the Diesel. That's my whole contention,the largest portion of the Lakers on-court success in the new Millenium<?> is because of Shaq..that much is inarguable.</div> Now that I totally agree with...my view has always been Shaq is the primary reason, but Kobe is the secondary reason
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree with you there Dre ... In their first championship run, they squeked out of the Western Conference with the ever so slightest margin. If you recall, Portland took them to the 7th game and held an 18pt lead, only to lose it in the 4th. I truly believe that if u subtract any guy (not just Kobe) from that team (i.e. Shaw, Fisher, Harper, Kobe etc...), and replaced them with similar "quality," you would have had a different result. It was just one of those magical series, and call me crazy for using this as an argument, but subtracting one of those players (including kobe) changes the karma of that series. The clutch shots, the clutch defensive plays during that series (especially in the last game) were once in a blue moon ... Shaw was playing out of his mind, Fisher was hitting, Harper had that game winner in game 3, and Kobe was hitting big shots as well. And although Kobe had yet to "come into his own," I don't think there was a shooting guard at the time that could give Pippen as much trouble as he did in that series.. (granted Pip had lost a step by then, he was still a premier defender that year) In their second title run, they swept through the playoffs so easily, perhaps u can make an argument that they didn't need Kobe...however, u can't really ignore the fact that he averaged <u>30 ppg 7 rpg 6 apg</u> during those enitre playoffs, so its really hard to say ...</div> well look at it like this,plug someone like Ray Allen or Paul Pierce into the equation and let them play with Shaq for 3 years and the Lakers would have still won a title IMO. Good enough 2 guards to take advantage of the openings Shaq gives and good enough create shots own their own..thats how I was approaching the basis of my opinion. And no,I'm not trying the slight Kobe,I'm trying to show that with someone as dominant as Shaq..if you surround with the right kind of players he'll take 'em to the gold.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">well look at it like this,plug someone like Ray Allen or Paul Pierce into the equation and let them play with Shaq for 3 years and the Lakers would have still won a title IMO. Good enough 2 guards to take advantage of the openings Shaq gives and good enough create shots own their own..thats how I was approaching the basis of my opinion. And no,I'm not trying the slight Kobe,I'm trying to show that with someone as dominant as Shaq..if you surround with the right kind of players he'll take 'em to the gold.</div> Thats true but if you surround kobe with the right kind of players he will take you to gold.He took shaq to gold didint he.???
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheNextJordan8:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats true but if you surround kobe with the right kind of players he will take you to gold.He took shaq to gold didint he.???</div> I wish everyone would stop sayin that Shaq took Kobe to the gold and Kobe took Shaq to the gold because neither one of them took each other. They both worked together and thats exactly why they won all 3 Championships. Without Kobe....Shaq probably wouldnt have won the Championship....Without Shaq...Kobe wouldnt have won the Championship....Thats just my opinion but this year everyone will find out if either of them win the Championship without each other...which i doubt thatll happen this year at least.
In all honesty...neither did anything for each other in the first three seasons that they were together. Kobe was averaging 8 PPG I believe his rookie year, and he came off the bench for limited minutes. Shaq was already trying to lead the league in points and boards at that time, but the Lakers won nothing. Three years later, Kobe hits over 20 a game...actually, it was 22.5 PPG...and Phil Jackson comes along that same year, and they win gold for three straight. So... With Shaq playing his finest from 1992 up until 1999, he won nothing. Kobe comes along, takes three years to actually break into the lineup. He plays 50 games in his third year (no Phil yet) and then comes the fourth year. Year #4...Shaq, Kobe at his best, and in comes Phil. The Lakers win the championship. So, like I've said before...Shaq doesn't really deserve but 1/3 of that credit. I give equal credit to Phil, Kobe, and Shaq all three for what they did, because the rest of the team sat in awe and watched two superstars and one of the greatest coaches of all time. Fair enough?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post"> So, like I've said before...Shaq doesn't really deserve but 1/3 of that credit. I give equal credit to Phil, Kobe, and Shaq all three for what they did, because the rest of the team sat in awe and watched two superstars and one of the greatest coaches of all time. Fair enough?</div> Now you're slighting Brian Shaw, Robert Horry, D-Fish etc...
Yes, our championship runs were due to the fact that we had Phil Jackson, arguably the greatest coach of all time, a healthy and active Shaquille O'Neal, arguably the best two guard in the league in Kobe Bryant. I don't care what anybody has to say regarding the two, if one or both of these players weren't together in 2000, 2001, and 2002, there wouldn't be any championships we can even talk about but just 1988. Shaq and Kobe were the glue that had the team together, the peanut butter and jelly so to speak. And if both weren't on the same page, and being the dynamic duo they should be relied on and capable of being, then the last three seasons were a joke. And let's solely not forget our amazing role players. Nothing like 2004 in our last FInals appearance....Glen Rice, (our legitimate 3rd scorer that year) Ron Harper, Tyronn Lue, A.C. Green, Brian Shaw, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher...players that came to play every night, and stepped up their game to different heights. Man, the good 'ol days.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Emo:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, our championship runs were due to the fact that we had Phil Jackson, arguably the greatest coach of all time, a healthy and active Shaquille O'Neal, arguably the best two guard in the league in Kobe Bryant. I don't care what anybody has to say regarding the two, if one or both of these players weren't together in 2000, 2001, and 2002, there wouldn't be any championships we can even talk about but just 1988. Shaq and Kobe were the glue that had the team together, the peanut butter and jelly so to speak. And if both weren't on the same page, and being the dynamic duo they should be relied on and capable of being, then the last three seasons were a joke. And let's solely not forget our amazing role players. Nothing like 2004 in our last FInals appearance....Glen Rice, (our legitimate 3rd scorer that year) Ron Harper, Tyronn Lue, A.C. Green, Brian Shaw, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher...players that came to play every night, and stepped up their game to different heights. Man, the good 'ol days.</div> I bleed purple and gold everytime our season begins. Every clutch play from Kobe, any spectacular comebacks by the Lakers, and every incredible performance...it gives me an adrenaline rush and I'll go take it to the basketball courts after the game. Being doubted each year, hearing guys talk bad about the Lakers constantly, and now being the underdogs for the first time in a LONG time...oooh yeah. Two words: bring it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">I bleed purple and gold everytime our season begins. Every clutch play from Kobe, any spectacular comebacks by the Lakers, and every incredible performance...it gives me an adrenaline rush and I'll go take it to the basketball courts after the game. Being doubted each year, hearing guys talk bad about the Lakers constantly, and now being the underdogs for the first time in a LONG time...oooh yeah. Two words: bring it. </div> That is the mark of a true fan. I love these types of fans. I love the enthusiasm they can build around their team no matter what situation the team is in. Fans like you, realdealbneal, make me respect Laker fans with all my heart. Though our teams may have engaged in classic battles, in which Knicks fans cursed off Lakers fans and vice-versa, I still will have the utmost respect for fans like you and many of the other Lakers (And other teams) fans here on JBB. Keep it up. :thumbsup:
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">I bleed purple and gold everytime our season begins. Every clutch play from Kobe, any spectacular comebacks by the Lakers, and every incredible performance...it gives me an adrenaline rush and I'll go take it to the basketball courts after the game. Being doubted each year, hearing guys talk bad about the Lakers constantly, and now being the underdogs for the first time in a LONG time...oooh yeah. Two words: bring it. </div> Much love from another Laker fan to another. I definitely hear what you're saying, and I also look forward to each and every nationally televised Laker game myself. It sucks that I don't have NBA League Pass so that I watch each and every game, I use my other options well by listening to Laker online streamed radio or online footage with Yahoo or CBS Sportsline, but whenever any televised game is scheduled for the Lakers, I get fired up in my living room, chill with my dad listening to my uncles talk about the Lakers while we watch the game with no one to disturb us if we're making too much noise in the quiet mostly silent Laker residence in the Bay Area, and it's just the typical Laker life each and every day. I can't wait to make the previews once again for JBB too. It'll be a blast. But being the underdog I have no problem with. Because if we're labeled as the underdog, and the Lakers somehow have another magical season, then those critics will turn themselves around and praise us. It's funny controversy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting onetwo88:</div><div class="quote_post">Odom and kobe should be awesome, the rest of the team is what the problem could be</div> Well, Brian Grant is moving back to his natural position, Vlade is a great passing center, Butler was injured last year but had an impressive rookie season, and our bench is looking strong. The only problem we have is our PG...actually, just the starting PG...but I'm sure Kupchak will do something about this soon
