Shaq could've have carried the Lakers in the Finals

I don't wanna start another Shaq Kobe debate but I was on another forum and someone was saying how Shaq was was a big part of the reason why the Lakers lost and how Kobe was the only reason they won one game.

So I was checking out the total shot attempts between Kobe and Shaq (as they were the only ones producing in the Finals). I added up the numbers for the Finals of "total shot attempts" between Kobe and Shaq and the results were quite interesting:

Shaq: FG 53-84 FG%. 631 3PT 0-0 3PT%. 000 FT 27-55 FT%.491. Averaged 26PPG
Kobe: FG 43-113 .FG% 381 3PT 4-23 3PT% .174 FT 23-25 FT%. 920. Averaged 22PPG

Note: I did not add the FTs as they were insignificant and I explained why in the results.

<font size="3">Results:</font><ul>[*]While Shaq was bad from the FT, missing 28 FTs in total, 28/5 = 5.6ppg, about 6 FTs per game at best missed should not be a factor in a loss for this scenario.[*]If Shaq would've scored from all his attempts, he would have about an extra 12.4ppg[*]If Kobe would've scored on all his attempts he wouldve had an extra 40(39.4)ppg, WOW THAT'S A LOT!!!![*]Shaq was aiming for 38ppg and came up with 26ppg with 10 attempts-per-game less than Kobe(52 total in the series).[*]Kobe was aiming for 60ppg and came up with 22ppg, 60PPG HOLY ----!!!.[*]While Kobe get's praises for winning one game with a clutch shot (even though LB should've had him fouled because the Pistons were up by 3) that 3pt shot was 1 of 4 he made, outta 23 attempts throughout the series[*]Even if Shaq wasn't "doing his job defensively" they still would've walked out with a Championship if Kobe had not tried to go 60ppg and came up with 22ppg OR if Shaq would've had the ball more.[/list]

<font size="3">The Math</font>
<ul>[*]Shaq's FG: took a total of 84 shots, and made 53 of those attempts, and missed 84-53=31 times, 31/5=6.2 times per game, which would be 6.2X2=12.4 extra points per game if Shaq would've scored on all attempts.[*]For Kobe's 3PT: missed 23-4=19 in total, 19/5=3.8 shot attempts per game, 3.8x3=11.4ppg if he would've landed all his 3PT shots[*]For Kobe's FG: 113-43=70 shots in total 70/5=14 shots per game which would've been 14x2= 28ppg if he wouldve landed all his field goals[*]Kobe's Total: 28+11.4 = 39.4 extra points per game Kobe would've had if he landed all his attempts from both the field and the 3.[*]Kobe vs Shaq attempt difference 136-84=52 in total, 52/5=10.4 attempts per game.[/list]

<font size="3">Conclusion</font>
<ul>[*]Based on the attempts-made/attempts, if Shaq would've had the ball dished to him more and tooken more of Kobe's attempts, he would've carried the Lakers to the Championship.[*]The players that ultimately contained Shaq was his own team.[/list]

 

If you recall they let Shaq romp on them ( the Pistons) and they just stopped everyone else. I think he had 20pts 20 boards one game. Shaq was never the problem in LA. It's always Kobe. He's so selfish and full of himself. In todays NBA you can't without a big. Kobe will fall back with AI,Pierce and the other one man teams. I just don't see Odom/Kobe being the next Jordan/Pippen.

 

There's absolutely no need to discuss this game at all. What I do know is Kobe saved the Lakers in Game 2, and if it wasn't for Kobe's selfishness in Game 4 by completely staying away from our priority in Shaq, when Shaq was pretty much carrying the Lakers at that point, instead allowing Detroit to double and triple Kobe in each and every one of his possessions, I'm sure it would've been a competitive series. What is a fact is Detroit deserved the championship and we didn't. Besides Kobe and Shaq, everybody started planning on where they were gonna go for their summer vacations.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting heatfan83:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't wanna start another Shaq Kobe debate but I was on another forum and someone was saying how Shaq was was a big part of the reason why the Lakers lost and how Kobe was the only reason they won one game.

So I was checking out the total shot attempts between Kobe and Shaq (as they were the only ones producing in the Finals). I added up the numbers for the Finals of "total shot attempts" between Kobe and Shaq and the results were quite interesting:

Shaq: FG 53-84 FG%. 631 3PT 0-0 3PT%. 000 FT 27-55 FT%.491. Averaged 26PPG
Kobe: FG 43-113 .FG% 381 3PT 4-23 3PT% .174 FT 23-25 FT%. 920. Averaged 22PPG

Note: I did not add the FTs as they were insignificant and I explained why in the results.</div>

We all know that you can't count on Shaq for making a high percentage of his freethrows. But look at his numbers in Laker LOSSES during the series. He was 18/41 from the free-throw line (43.9%). Let's say Shaq was a decent freethrow shooter, about 70%. He would have hit 29/41 in those games. That's 2.75ppg he should have contributed in the 4 Laker losses. Would that have made much of a difference? Not really. The Lakers lost by 10, 10, 8, and 13 in those games.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><font size="3">Results:</font><ul>[*]While Shaq was bad from the FT, missing 28 FTs in total, 28/5 = 5.6ppg, about 6 FTs per game at best missed should not be a factor in a loss for this scenario.[*]If Shaq would've scored from all his attempts, he would have about an extra 12.4ppg[*]If Kobe would've scored on all his attempts he wouldve had an extra 40(39.4)ppg, WOW THAT'S A LOT!!!![*]Shaq was aiming for 38ppg and came up with 26ppg with 10 attempts-per-game less than Kobe(52 total in the series).[*]Kobe was aiming for 60ppg and came up with 22ppg, 60PPG HOLY ----!!!.[*]While Kobe get's praises for winning one game with a clutch shot (even though LB should've had him fouled because the Pistons were up by 3) that 3pt shot was 1 of 4 he made, outta 23 attempts throughout the series[*]Even if Shaq wasn't "doing his job defensively" they still would've walked out with a Championship if Kobe had not tried to go 60ppg and came up with 22ppg OR if Shaq would've had the ball more.[/list]</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Where did you hear that Kobe was going for 60ppg? I agree that Kobe had a bad series, particularly when it moved to Detroit. He was completely shut down. For a guy who considers himself the number 1 option on the team, that was inexcusable. <font size="3">Conclusion</font>
<ul>[*]Based on the attempts-made/attempts, if Shaq would've had the ball dished to him more and tooken more of Kobe's attempts, he would've carried the Lakers to the Championship.[*]The players that ultimately contained Shaq was his own team.[/list]</div>

I agree that Shaq should have gotten the ball more. But it's not just Kobe's fault. None of the Lakers did an adequate job getting him the ball. And Phil Jackson should probably take some blame for not demanding that they do so.

 

i think your right durvasa. Shaq was killin em in the piston series. He should have gotten the ball more and that would have opened up kobe and the rest of the lakers. Who knows, if Shaq got the ball more and him and kobe worked in unison in the detroit series and won the cahmpionship maybe shaq would still be a laker.

 

Nobody is adding in momentum factors, with Shaq missing free throws...if he would make both, the Pistons' momentum would be cut in half. Silence the crowd by making free throws, not missing them.

Nobody is adding in the fact that Malone and George were setting their screens wayyy too late, which resulted in a double and triple team on Kobe. Even if he tried to pass it to Shaq, there's a HUGE chance that it would be stolen in all of the congestion in the lane, and with Ben Wallace being much more agile and quicker than Shaq, there'd be no hope.

Kobe and Shaq were not the main problem in the Lakers' loss. It was Gary Payton, not being able to control the entry pass to begin the triangle, and he was cutting effectively, but not returning back to the correct corner...causing alot of stress on the SG (which is...KOBE) when the ball was in his hands. What can you do when your point guard isn't nowhere in sight, when you have to return the ball to him to start the rotation over? Payton was dismantled by the Pistons' attempts at misdirection...and the hard defense (and offense) of Chauncey Billups, who ended up with the MVP (holding Payton to 4 PPG or so, and no defensive stops whatsoever).

Kobe jacked up shots, true...just like Shaq played poorly on defense. I'd expect Shaq to throw Chauncey or Rip's layups into the stands. Remember, he's the "most dominant player" in the league, but yet he was letting these guys run off screens and score inside...almost like he let Ginobili do the same in the Spurs/Lakers game early into the season. Shaq is 7'1" and there's a good reason to be tall in the league...and it's to use your height to your advantage. Both Shaq and Kobe played poorly...Kobe playing worse on offense than Shaq, but Kobe's defense was much better. Shaq should've put in every single shot he attempted, and finished after every foul...but his size proved to be his downfall. The blame is on the Lakers, but the main reason for their loss isn't Shaq or Kobe.

 

Durvasa, Ill try to explain it again:
If Kobe would've made all his scoring attempts he wouldve averaged 60ppg
If Shaq would've made all his scoring attempts he wouldve averaged 38ppg

Shaq, outta a projected 38ppg, averaged 26ppg
Kobe, outta a projected 60ppg, averaged 22ppg

If Shaq would've gotten all the touches Kobe would've gotten he would've carried the Lakers because he was way more efficient when it came to scoring.

I said I would not include the FTs in the Finals because Shaq missing 6ppg in FT shooting should not be a deciding factor considering that Kobe was projected to go 60ppg and ended up with 22ppg

Like I said, The players that ultimately contained Shaq was his team.

This isn't a Kobe bash thread, this is a "Shaq could've carried the Lakers in the Finals" thread

 

Hey heatfan...quick question...without all of the focus on Kobe, what guy would've been getting triple teamed and outhustled down the court? That's right...Shaq. The big man can take anyone in the paint one-on-one, but once you get the two Wallaces in there against him, and Tay flying in for another defensive addition...Shaq would've been dismantled, and Kobe would have open shots.

So, with that said...maybe it goes to show you how Kobe, not Shaq, was creating open shots for everyone else. Remember how many guys say that Shaq makes it easier for Kobe? That's not always the case...because in most of the Laker losses, the team will focus on Kobe defensively, and let Shaq do his thing in the paint...and that's why the Lakers lose. The Pistons did this.

Obviously, Shaq could not do this by himself...nor could Kobe. The Lakers have a better chance with Shaq getting doubled and tripled, because it leaves Kobe open. However, when Kobe gets double teamed, the only guy that's open is Shaq...and he's not going to score 80 points because he'll just get fouled. If Shaq was an 85% free throw shooter, it would be different...and that's where the FT% comes into play.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey heatfan...quick question...without all of the focus on Kobe, what guy would've been getting triple teamed and outhustled down the court? That's right...Shaq. The big man can take anyone in the paint one-on-one, but once you get the two Wallaces in there against him, and Tay flying in for another defensive addition...Shaq would've been dismantled, and Kobe would have open shots.

So, with that said...maybe it goes to show you how Kobe, not Shaq, was creating open shots for everyone else. Remember how many guys say that Shaq makes it easier for Kobe? That's not always the case...because in most of the Laker losses, the team will focus on Kobe defensively, and let Shaq do his thing in the paint...and that's why the Lakers lose. The Pistons did this.</div>I agree Kobe can help create shots for other players but what good is if you don't pass it to that open player?

Also, ofcourse 3 players like Tay , Ben , and Rasheed are going to give Shaq problems but the truth is they weren't gonna bother with him because it would've left Kobe open.

So instead they used Kobe's greed against him knowing he wouldn't pass to the open player and this is why everyone praised the Pistons for stopping Kobe, because Kobe was letting them stop him by not passing the ball. Instead he was taking the contested shots and missed...a lot.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Obviously, Shaq could not do this by himself...nor could Kobe. The Lakers have a better chance with Shaq getting doubled and tripled, because it leaves Kobe open. However, when Kobe gets double teamed, the only guy that's open is Shaq...and he's not going to score 80 points because he'll just get fouled. If Shaq was an 85% free throw shooter, it would be different...and that's where the FT% comes into play.</div>I agree that Shaq is not a good FT shooter but the thing is the Lakers didn't play smart basketball they just expected to run over the Pistons.

The Pistons can't foul Shaq on every possesion, if they would they would either have to put more of their bench out to foul or their bench would be out their because the Piston starters were in foul trouble or would foul out; either way this equals less of the Pistons starters on the court.

Imagine if Shaq would've gotten all of the touches Kobe had and Kobe got Shaq's touches, do you think they would be able to foul him that much for every possesion, or even HALF of every possesion per game? They would be in foul trouble all the time and then would've come the team fouls. Since he didn't get many touches they only fouled him when it mattered and where able to stay outta foul trouble.

Kobe made it out as if he was thinking more about scoring than winning.

 

Like I admitted, Kobe should've passed the ball more...except half of the passes that would've went in for Shaq would've been picked off. Ben Wallace was nearly leading the league in steals one year (don't remember when) but that's insane for a center. Plus, the lane was so congested at the time, and it was to stop Kobe from driving in the lane. Passing inside like that, even if you're Jason Williams or Jason Kidd, would somewhat be a mistake. The Lakers were looking to rely on their shooters, which would've spread the defense out a little...then Kobe could pass to Shaq easier. Well...the shooters were terrible, so the Pistons thought, "Okay...we hold Kobe down and congest the lane, so his passes to Shaq are interrupted...and if he passes it to Payton or George, let them shoot all day." As for Malone, he was late on his screens, so it left him about 20 feet from the hoop...which means a bad percentage for him to take shot after shot.

 

My opinion is <u>If you have Shaq on your team, you run the ball through him EVERY time down the floor. </u> He commands a double team <u>every</u> time he touches the ball. Kobe could have gotten his ass alot of easy buckets by going through the big guy, but lets face it, those 2 needed to break up and go their own ways. I guess it was an ego thing for the most-part, but something tells me Kobe is more to blame.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting grinder333:</div><div class="quote_post">My opinion is <u>If you have Shaq on your team, you run the ball through him EVERY time down the floor. </u> He commands a double team <u>every</u> time he touches the ball. Kobe could have gotten his ass alot of easy buckets by going through the big guy, but lets face it, those 2 needed to break up and go their own ways. I guess it was an ego thing for the most-part, but something tells me Kobe is more to blame.</div>

I really don't think anyone is reading my posts most of the time...

The Detroit Pistons were the best defensive team in the league. Every pass would've been contested...interrupted...however you want to put it, especially passes into Shaq. Why didn't Payton pass to Shaq each time? What about the rest? The problem was that the lane was congested...packed with defense...clogged up...once again, however you see fit.

Guys just don't let the offense use an effective rotation with the ball and expect them not to score. The Pistons weren't going to let the pass into Shaq, yet they weren't guarding Shaq as much as Kobe, either...and this proved to be effective because the pass from Kobe to Shaq would've been a dangerous one on the Lakers' part...unless it was an alley-oop, but you can't do that every single time down the court. If you had Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince expecting a pass, and they were standing in the path you were to throw the ball, would you do it anyways and cause a turnover? NO.

It's that simple, guys. The Pistons figured out Kobe/Shaq, and that's the only two players that they had to beat. They stuck two on Kobe (one a fair distance away, but still able to play George), one just outside of the lane, and one on Shaq, and the passing was ineffective, even if Kobe did attempt to pass it every single time.

Shaq is good, Kobe is good...but they aren't that good, to play a 2-on-5 game against the best defensive team in the NBA. Malone was out, Payton was a screwup, and all the rest of the teammates did was jack up threes all game, yet they had to be wide open...or they'd pass it back to Kobe.

 

Yeah if Payton was actually shooting the ball well the finals would have been different. In fact if any other Laker had been shooting well, the finals would have been different. Other than Shaq and Kobe scoring, nobody else was really putting up points. They both averaged in the mid-twenties during the finals and the next closest was Fisher who averaged 6.4 ppg. Kobe only shot .381 during the series, and that is way down from his usual average. Karl Malone was a no show in the finals, only taking 24 shots the whole series (injured of course - as well).

Haing said that..........WHO CARES........THE BEST TEAM OBVIOUSLY WON..................THE PISTONS PLAYED FRIKKING AWESOME...........BILLUPS WAS SHOOTING LIKE LARRY BIRD...........IT WAS FUN TO WATCH


I don't know what makes me go on like that. Defending the Lakers that is.

 

of course, shaq could've carried the lakers to the finals. give him the ball deep inside and no person could've stopped him. but basketball is a team game, and one shaq versus five pistons who play as a team was, is, and will always be no contest.

frankly, the last lakers season was doomed from the start. still, they made a good account of themselves after the all star break--too bad the bickering and all the intramurals proved more compelling than the desire to come together and win the championship.

 

GO SHAQ.
The point is, Kobe missed alot. But he isn't the point guard. Actually he acts like he is one in the back court and shooting guard when he passes halfcourt. Anyways why didn't the other 3 players pass the ball to shaq? Why Kobe didn't shoot less and score more? Better shot selection? We can only question their judgment, but we can't decide what exactly would of caused the games to tilt.
Say shaq got the ball more, he would probably get fouled more. Score a little more, but pistons might of missed less, nullyfying giving shaq the ball more. Lakers score more, so does detroit.

By the way 2 kobe fans agree with heatfan and are realists. Realdeal on the other hand is overly biased, as always.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting EcinPC:</div><div class="quote_post"><font color="Red">GO SHAQ</font>.
The point is, <font color="Red">Kobe missed alot</font>. But he isn't the point guard. Actually he acts like he is one in the back court and shooting guard when he passes halfcourt. Anyways <font color="Red">why didn't the other 3 players pass the ball to shaq</font>? <font color="Red">Why Kobe didn't shoot less and score more</font>? Better shot selection? We can only question their judgment, but we can't decide what exactly would of caused the games to tilt.
<font color="Red">Say shaq got the ball more</font>, he would probably get fouled more. Score a little more, but pistons might of missed less, nullyfying giving shaq the ball more. Lakers score more, so does detroit.

By the way 2 kobe fans agree with heatfan and are realists. Realdeal on the other hand is overly biased, as always.</div>

If I was "overly biased" as you claim, I would begin my post with this:

GO KOBE

But I didn't. Now who's biased? I blame <u>both</u>...go read my posts again.

And for the stuff in red...ooh...I forgot, you're a Heat fan...so that automatically makes you a Shaq fan. That's called being biased, considering you didn't blame anything on Shaq.

I wonder how many of you would like Shaq if the Heat made the Finals last year, and the Lakers walked all over them? Haha...nevermind. I can only imagine the excuses I'd hear then.

 

I agree with heatfan83 on this one. But, I'm willing to forgive and forget if Kobe does good this season.

 

We have no idea what was going in their heads at that time especially Kobe with his court thing. WE have no idea what was going on in the locker room or what was said or nothin really so for ust to talk like we know everything is wrong. Everyone says they should have passed the ball to shaq more but maybe thats not what phil wanted. You cant really blame anyone for the piston series cause we dont really have any inside info on whats goin on

 

Shaq couldnt have won the series all by himself. Shaq cant make clutch points. he doesnt have the ability to make points when it matters the most.

 

Shaq played good enough to win the championship. In my opinion, he was darn
near the MVP of the finals. He certainly was the best player in the finals, or as
he would like to say, the most dominant. But Shaq never did win a championship
by himself. He had Kobe's help in the past, and guys like Horry, Rice, etc.....
This year, Kobe was horrible, maybe we underestimate the effect of the trial
on his ability to focus. But Malone and Payton were horrible. There was absolutely
no depth on this team, and no role players stepped up (except Walton in one
game and Rush in one game).

So what you got was five solid performances from Shaq, one solid performance
from Kobe, one from Walton, one from Rush. That's a total of eight solid games
total over a five game stretch. Horrible. Compare to Detroit who got solid performances from both Wallaces, Prince, Billups, Rip in almost every game,
and many bench players made impacts.

So in summary, no, Shaq could not have won the series all by himself given
the very minimal support he got from the rest of the team.