Remember....

when the Knicks had a productive starting small forward and center? I do. We had an 18 and 7 guy in Van Horn and a solid center in Michael Doleac. We traded them for what? Trash!. We have one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA in Tim Thomas(nevermind that he's overpaid) and the guy who was supposed to be the key to the trade Nazr Mohammed who's even worse then Tim Thomas. Doleac in one game against the Magic had 11pts, 9 rebounds 1 block and I think 1 assist. Nazr hasnt matched that in THREE games. If we still had Doleac and Van Horn we'd be looking alot better then we are now. Instead our center position is just sorry and whenever I think about it I break into tears. I want Isiah Thomas's resignation(even though I'm not going to get it). He's been lucky so far but I have the feeling that another Toronto episode is on the horizon. I appreciate the fact that he's brought excitement back to the Garden but I want him gone just the same. So please Mr. Dolan I'm begging you(even thought your not listening) fire Isiah. Bring in anybody else(except Chaney). Hell you can even bring in Layden. Just get rid of Isiah. By the way. Maybe we can pull off a trade, Nazr for Doleac??? Afterall he ran run faster and jump higher although he has not an ounce of real skill. Well I'm done ranting. I just had to let it all out.

 

Well,as far as Doleac for Nazr goes they both are trash,realistically. Doleac got sent packing because he was injured alot at the start of the last season. And it seem like Zeke got rid of everyone that seem soft or injury prone ie Mcdyess,Van Horn. Its still strange because Narz hasnt been the healthiest player in the world in his career either, before he came to NY. But overall, I would say he probably slightly better fit then Doleac for the Knicks. Doleac is a mid range jumpshooting bigman, the Knicks already have that in Kurt Thomas, & Vin Baker. So having both your power forward & center standing in the mid-range area taking 15 footers all night isnt the best fit. Narz for the most part ,despite having no post up game, will stay under the basket & clean things up from time to time. He is a pretty decent rebounder given the minutes he plays. I agree Zeke hasnt answered the Knicks biggest problem at the bigman position, but keeping Doleac wouldnt have been much of a difference imo.

Now trading Van Horn for Tim Thomas is a whole another story,especally with the type of team the Knicks have ,now. I think Van Horn's shooting would be a big part of the Knicks system playing alongside Steph & Crawford who have the ablity to breakdown defenses.And get in the lanes to create. I think if Van Horn was still in NY, it would probably be a little bit easier to live with Allan Houston always being in & out of the lineup, cause you have Van Horn's perimeter shot to lean on. Also with Crawford & Steph having the ball in their hands so much it would be nice to have the type of third scorer Van is. Someone who doesnt always want to put the ball on the floor & do to much that isnt need with that type of current perimeter. Tim Thomas is the type of player who gonna want to consistently try to do to much during the times it isnt needed. And when it is needed for him to set up, he'll fold. I didnt like the tade when it happened. But you knew it was coming before it even happened...Van Horn isnt a Zeke type of player.

 

Your absolutely right about the Van Horn thing. I cant agree with you about Doleac though. The numbers dont lie. Doleac is a better player then Nazr. Nazr's style might have helped the Knicks, too bad he sucks at it. Nazr and Tim Thomas are non factors. Some guys disappear in the fourth quarter(Van Horn has that reputation) and some guys dont show up at all(Tim Thomas). No way in the world is Nazr better then Doleac in ANY system. He's the kind of guy you give garbage minutes. Doleac isnt a star but he's solid. Not a defensive stopper but does play defense and a better rebounder it seems or at the very least no worse then Nazr. Having another center with a jumpshot cant hurt. That's preferable to a center who does nothing but give you two team fouls in the first quarter and does nothing else. The pick and roll with him and Marbury was effective and gave them something to run when they had nothing else. At this rate Vin Baker isnt going to get alot of minutes to use that mid ranged jumpshot. Having Van Horn and Doleac would have made a world of difference.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">when the Knicks had a productive starting small forward and center? I do. We had an 18 and 7 guy in Van Horn and a solid center in Michael Doleac. We traded them for what? Trash!. We have one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA in Tim Thomas(nevermind that he's overpaid) and the guy who was supposed to be the key to the trade Nazr Mohammed who's even worse then Tim Thomas. Doleac in one game against the Magic had 11pts, 9 rebounds 1 block and I think 1 assist. Nazr hasnt matched that in THREE games. If we still had Doleac and Van Horn we'd be looking alot better then we are now. Instead our center position is just sorry and whenever I think about it I break into tears. I want Isiah Thomas's resignation(even though I'm not going to get it). He's been lucky so far but I have the feeling that another Toronto episode is on the horizon. I appreciate the fact that he's brought excitement back to the Garden but I want him gone just the same. So please Mr. Dolan I'm begging you(even thought your not listening) fire Isiah. Bring in anybody else(except Chaney). Hell you can even bring in Layden. Just get rid of Isiah. By the way. Maybe we can pull off a trade, Nazr for Doleac??? Afterall he ran run faster and jump higher although he has not an ounce of real skill. Well I'm done ranting. I just had to let it all out.</div>
__________________

First of all I think you are forgetting the main reason why we were in the playoffs and why there is even hope for us. Get rid of Isaiah is one of the most absurd Knick related things I've ever heard! We would have never gotten Marbury had Layden still been here. We would still be watching Eisley and the rest of them. The main reason why the Knicks did not do aswell after the Van Horn trade is because Houston's outside shooting was greatly missed. And even if Isaiah made a bad trade all of those trades Layden did could not even compare!

Isaiah was going to go in a more uptempo style of play and Van horn is somewhat slow and unathletic. Second of all Van Horn was soft, had no heart and disappeared in the 4th. For example, that Bucks game when the Knicks were down by 26. Van Horn dropped like 18 in the 1st half and 2 in the last half. I know Tim Thomas can be inconsistent but when he does show something it is great and imo better than what Van Horn showed, especially the way he dunks on people. And as for Doleac, he was a shooting big man. That's about it, if you guarded his shot correctly he would be useless. There's no way he is better than Mohammed.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
First of all I think you are forgetting the main reason why we were in the playoffs and why there is even hope for us. Get rid of Isaiah is one of the most absurd Knick related things I've ever heard! We would have never gotten Marbury had Layden still been here. We would still be watching Eisley and the rest of them. The main reason why the Knicks did not do aswell after the Van Horn trade is because Houston's outside shooting was greatly missed. And even if Isaiah made a bad trade all of those trades Layden did could not even compare!

Isaiah was going to go in a more uptempo style of play and Van horn is somewhat slow and unathletic. Second of all Van Horn was soft, had no heart and disappeared in the 4th. For example, that Bucks game when the Knicks were down by 26. Van Horn dropped like 18 in the 1st half and 2 in the last half. I know Tim Thomas can be inconsistent but when he does show something it is great and imo better than what Van Horn showed, especially the way he dunks on people. And as for Doleac, he was a shooting big man. That's about it, if you guarded his shot correctly he would be useless. There's no way he is better than Mohammed.</div>

Ok maybe I was going a little overboard with wanting Layden but you get my point. All of Isiah's trades have been hit or miss. And with that Van Horn trade it was a definite miss. There is absolutely no excuse for that trade. By the way for everything we gave up for Marbury we could have improved the team more(I think). Dont forget Frank Williams was looking really good and we destroyed his development when we brought in Marbury.

Van Horn slow and athletic?Who cares? He knows how to play. Van Horn is soft? So? He knows how to play. Has no heart? And Tim Thomas does??? Disappeared in the fourth quarter perhaps but he had an impact on the game. Tim Thomas is a non factor. He doesnt even come to the game. If he did I didnt and wouldnt have noticed. Tim Thomas inconsistent? Nope. Van Horn is inconsistent(although with NY he was the most consistent he's ever been). Tim Thomas is a fugazy. When he does show up(ten games of the season) he makes a splash. Too bad we play 82 games and he does nothing for the other 72. As for Doleac...guarded his shot correctly and shut him down? Maybe. But do nothing to Nazr and you shut him down anyway. He does not produce. He does not know how to play. I know Knick fans try to make the trade look better then the disaster it actually was but I'm a realist. By the way the way Doleac played with Marbury you couldnt guard his shot. What has Nazr done that has warranted him to be better then Doleac??? Ive heard all the same stuff...he's faster, he's stronger, he can jump higher....but Doleac used it all better then him. Nazr is not a better rebounder then Doleac. He has no post up game and when Marbury passes him the ball he drops it out of bounds. So tell me how is Nazr better then Doleac?? Doleac has done in one game what Nazr couldnt(or barely could) do in three.

Your right Isiah Thomas brought us to where we are now. He brought excitement back to New York City. Made us matter once again. He's sort of like the St John of basketball in New York. Like St. John he gave us hope. And like St John I want his head on a stick.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok maybe I was going a little overboard with wanting Layden but you get my point. All of Isiah's trades have been hit or miss. And with that Van Horn trade it was a definite miss. There is absolutely no excuse for that trade. By the way for everything we gave up for Marbury we could have improved the team more(I think). Dont forget Frank Williams was looking really good and we destroyed his development when we brought in Marbury.

Van Horn slow and athletic?Who cares? He knows how to play. Van Horn is soft? So? He knows how to play. Has no heart? And Tim Thomas does??? Disappeared in the fourth quarter perhaps but he had an impact on the game. Tim Thomas is a non factor. He doesnt even come to the game. If he did I didnt and wouldnt have noticed. Tim Thomas inconsistent? Nope. Van Horn is inconsistent(although with NY he was the most consistent he's ever been). Tim Thomas is a fugazy. When he does show up(ten games of the season) he makes a splash. Too bad we play 82 games and he does nothing for the other 72. As for Doleac...guarded his shot correctly and shut him down? Maybe. But do nothing to Nazr and you shut him down anyway. He does not produce. He does not know how to play. I know Knick fans try to make the trade look better then the disaster it actually was but I'm a realist. By the way the way Doleac played with Marbury you couldnt guard his shot. What has Nazr done that has warranted him to be better then Doleac??? Ive heard all the same stuff...he's faster, he's stronger, he can jump higher....but Doleac used it all better then him. Nazr is not a better rebounder then Doleac. He has no post up game and when Marbury passes him the ball he drops it out of bounds. So tell me how is Nazr better then Doleac?? Doleac has done in one game what Nazr couldnt(or barely could) do in three.

Your right Isiah Thomas brought us to where we are now. He brought excitement back to New York City. Made us matter once again. He's sort of like the St John of basketball in New York. Like St. John he gave us hope. And like St John I want his head on a stick.</div>

In fact Tim Thomas has alot more heart, than Van Horn. When Van Horn came to NY he started out not too great especially his 3p%. However, as time progressed Van Horn adjusted and became somewhat of a good fit. Tim Thomas only played 25 games for NY. You're judging the trade way too soon. Nazr has better career averages than Doleac, and played better in New York than Doleac too. Nazr since coming to NY has averages of 9.1ppg and 7.7 rpg and 56fg%. Doleac had 5ppg and 4.1ppg and 44fg%. Nazr is quicker stronger and more aggressive than Doleac and due to the uptempo direction the Knicks are going in he will not be a good fit. And by the way Tim Thomas did have a major impact on the game. He dropped 18 to help Steph and the rest of the team rally back for the win.

 

If you call talking smack to the media about the Nets and Kenyon Martin in particular and dont come back on the floor and play heart. Then I dont want ANY of the Knick players to have it if thats how you define heart. I'm judging the trade way too soon??? When do you want me to start judging the trade??? I knew it was a bad trade the moment I read it online. And Ive been proven right so far.

As for Nazr...have you seen the preseason games? How can you defend him after those pathetic showings? His performance boggles the mind. He cant even defend his own position from a rehabilitating drunk and Bruno Sundov. I've never even heard of this guy before and bless anyone who has. All Sundov has to do is pull down a few boards and he's ahead of Nazr. Nazr is about to get beat off the center position by our powerforward Kurt Thomas. That's how lousy he is. In four, count them FOUR games he has done N-O-T-H-I-N-G and you and everybody else knows that. If you count up all the stats for those four games he has something like 8 pts 5 rebounds and nothign else. He's just a body out there. Yes Nazr is quicker, stronger and more aggressive(dont know about that one) than Doleac but it clearly has not shown. Even in an uptempo game these two bums will do nothing. It's becoming rather obvious. Van Horn and Doleac were EFFICIENT with the time they were given. They made a difference. These two guys dont. Fact of the matter is if Doleac was still in New York he'd be starting at center. Van Horn and Marbury had instant chemistry when Marbury came. What's taking Tim so long? Tim Thomas did have a major impact on that game. Your absolutely right. Now how about all the other games in which we didnt even notice that he was playing. I think it's time we all confessed the trade was not just bad but a nightmare.

 

Doleac is not a solid center hes trash and his midrange game isnt that great either i wouldnt even call it good not even ok. You compare Nazi to Doleac based on the one game u saw where he had 11 points and 9 rebounds? What about all the other games hes played in? Doleac was soft and the only reason he got play time in New York is because they didnt have any other center.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
If you call talking smack to the media about the Nets and Kenyon Martin in particular and dont come back on the floor and play heart. Then I dont want ANY of the Knick players to have it if thats how you define heart. I'm judging the trade way too soon??? When do you want me to start judging the trade??? I knew it was a bad trade the moment I read it online. And Ive been proven right so far.

As for Nazr...have you seen the preseason games? How can you defend him after those pathetic showings? His performance boggles the mind. He cant even defend his own position from a rehabilitating drunk and Bruno Sundov. I've never even heard of this guy before and bless anyone who has. All Sundov has to do is pull down a few boards and he's ahead of Nazr. Nazr is about to get beat off the center position by our powerforward Kurt Thomas. That's how lousy he is. In four, count them FOUR games he has done N-O-T-H-I-N-G and you and everybody else knows that. If you count up all the stats for those four games he has something like 8 pts 5 rebounds and nothign else. He's just a body out there. Yes Nazr is quicker, stronger and more aggressive(dont know about that one) than Doleac but it clearly has not shown. Even in an uptempo game these two bums will do nothing. It's becoming rather obvious. Van Horn and Doleac were EFFICIENT with the time they were given. They made a difference. These two guys dont. Fact of the matter is if Doleac was still in New York he'd be starting at center. Van Horn and Marbury had instant chemistry when Marbury came. What's taking Tim so long? Tim Thomas did have a major impact on that game. Your absolutely right. Now how about all the other games in which we didnt even notice that he was playing. I think it's time we all confessed the trade was not just bad but a nightmare.</div>
__________________

Heart imo is when you play with desire and don't disappear in the 4th! There have been many games where Tim has stepped up his game to beat teams. There is a reason why Milwaukee is Keith's 3rd team in less than 3 seasons. The trade should be judged when Thomas plays as many games as Steph played with Keith. Tim and Nazr with a training camp will make a ton of difference. The reason why Van Horn and Marbury bonded more quickly is because they played with each other in New Jersey. And Doleac given the minutes has never been as productive as Mohammed.

Besides preseason is not a significant sign of what is going to occur in the season because no players get their right minutes and some probably don't care. San Antonio right now is 0-3, and Sacremento is 1-4. Does this mean that because that these teams are having a bad preason they are going to have a bad season? Or because players such as VC, and Baron Davis are averaging 13 and 14ppg it will reflect their season?

 

In other words Nazr has done nothing so far. Nazr more productive than Doleac??? Im sorry but I have to ask...do you even watch the Knicks play Bobby? Because if you have then you'd agree with me and say that Nazr has done nothing, nada, zilch. Obviously you dont like Doleac which is fine. But anybody who has seen Doleac and Nazr play would say Doleac is more efficient with the time he's given. Are you telling me that Nazr cannot put up the same numbers in three games of action when he's fighting for a starting position??? Efficiency is what's important. Nazr is not efficent with the time he's given. He brings nothing to the table that Doleac doesnt bring. He cant even hold onto the ball. He's always dropping it out of bounds or something stupid like that. We'll see how Nazr does this season. And you'll see how right I am. By the way there are intanglibles that have to be taken into consideration such as the pick and roll play Marbury and Doleac ran. That was quite effective when the Knicks had nothing else going for them. Doleac could make his opposing center at least play defense and put him around the perimeter. Nazr is USELESS.

Again I have to say Tim Thomas is usually a non factor and most people would agree. If I could trade him for Wally I would. Again Van Horn might have disappeared in the fourth(or maybe Marbury decided to shoot the ball more instead of dishing it) but Tim Thomas doesnt play. You wouldnt notice if he was in the game or not. He's in the system he wants and he's doing nothing with it. Preseason is used to take a look at rookies and allow players to prove they deserve to start. Nazr is probably going to lose his starting job to our starting powerforward. If Isiah is smart he'll have Vin Baker play back up Kurt at center and JYD as back up for Sweetney and put Nazr on the injured list. At least Bruno Sundov's jumpshot(he has three point range) will keep opposing big men out of the paint so Marbury and Crawford can do their stuff. Although Bruno wont be able to defend against physical centers. Then again neither can Nazr. If Isiah could he'd sell his soul to reverse that trade because unlike his gamble with Marbury it didnt pay off.

 

Tribute To H20, I really like most of your posts, this is no exception. Keep up this great posting.


(Had to say that)


p.s. Let it all out man, I know the feeling.

 

Doleac could only shoot as I said. One of the centers main job is to rebound. Doleac hung around the perimeter too much. Which is why I think we were one of the worst rebounding teams. Doleac has never grabbed more than 13 rebounds in his career. I too would trade TT for Wally but that's not the point. The point is Doleac could only shoot and is way less productive than Mohammed. Even if Mohammed is not a starter there is no way Doleac would be either. Kurt Thomas is our shooting big man we don't really need another

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kurt Thomas is our shooting big man we don't really need another</div>
Two strong outside threats up front can be deadly later in the game. Although, not essential it is very valuable to have. That being said, for the record let me say that although Doleac isn't a great or good player, he's solid. He doesn't deserve rips. He is a strong player off the bench.

 

Mohammed in New York 03-04 season:
ppg 9.1
rpg 7.7
apg .5
spg 1.22
fg: 56.3
ft: 52.5
to 1.52
mpg: 24.9

Doleac in New York 03-04 season:
ppg: 5.0
rpg: 4.1
apg: .7
spg: .37
ft: 86.7
to: .80
fg: 44.4
mpg:14.9

According to these stats Mohammed is better than Doleac

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Mohammed in New York 03-04 season:
ppg 9.1
rpg 7.7
apg .5
spg 1.22
fg: 56.3
ft: 52.5
to 1.52
mpg: 24.9

Doleac in New York 03-04 season:
ppg: 5.0
rpg: 4.1
apg: .7
spg: .37
ft: 86.7
to: .80
fg: 44.4
mpg:14.9

According to these stats Mohammed is better than Doleac</div>

I rest my case.

(They are both 3rd/4th rate, though. Neither of them are any good)

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I rest my case.

(They are both 3rd/4th rate, though. Neither of them are any good)

</div>

Mohammed;s #'s are better than Doleac. Mohammed is also more solid than Doleac.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Mohammed;s #'s are better than Doleac. Mohammed is also more solid than Doleac.</div>When you say 'solid' are you talking about his build or his game?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Tribute To H20, I really like most of your posts, this is no exception. Keep up this great posting.


(Had to say that)


p.s. Let it all out man, I know the feeling.</div>

I'll co-sign, that, I really like debating & discussing with that Cat. But with that being said I still think he is a little off with the Doleac/Nazr. I wouldnt want both Kurt Thomas & Micheal Doleac standing in the mid-range area, shooting 15 footers. And thats basically, what would happen if Doleac was still in NY. And starting at the Center. Narz isnt the great starting Center by any stretch of the imagination but I would take 6 rebs a game from a starting Center who wont play more then 20 minutes most nights.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When you say 'solid' are you talking about his build or his game?</div>

His game

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">His game</div>He is better than Doleac, but not for the money he is making. One cannot deny that.