Remember....

Having two shooting big men is a great thing to have. Kurt Thomas is a big man with a jumpshot but we cant have him hanging out on the perimeter he's our best(or second) best rebounder. Many times the Knicks went with Doleac and Kurt down the stretch because it was effective.

Nazr is in no way shape or form better than Doleac. Those numbers you put up mrj18 are a testament to how bad the Knick shooting was. The shooting was so bad without Van Horn and Doleac even Nazr could get some rebounds. Nazr played almost a full quarter more than Doleac there really should be a bigger disparity in points and rebounds. Nazr is simply a bad rebounder which is surprising since all he does is hang around the basket and wait for someone to miss. He looks completely lost when he's out on the floor. Like he's some guy who wandered off the street and into a basketball game. Like I said before there are things that dont appear in the box score. Setting picks and bringing the opposing shot blocker out of the paint doesnt show up. Even if your right(which believe me you arent) and Nazr is better than Doleac, Doleac is still more valuable to the Knicks. In the end it's not the players who matter its the team. Doleac gave the Knicks versatility. He gave them options. He didnt drop the ball out of bounds and didnt commit stupid fouls. I would say he was a better on ball defender but I'll leave that alone. He also brought something else to the table in chemistry. Nazr isnt a good fit for this team no matter how fast or strong he is. This is basketball not track and field. All he will do for the Knicks is hang around the basket, do nothing and give the opposing center nothing to worry about. Every now and then he'll have a good game(and the Knicks will probably have lost that game since they were probably shooting badly) and you'll come and tell me he's better than Doleac. I've heard all the same arguments before about that Van Horn and Doleac trade. And although athleticism is important the Olympics have shown us that skill is much better and will always beat out athleticism. These two guys we have now dont have skill. While some people think Tim Thomas dunking on people is a beautiful thing I think Van Horn shooting a three pointer is even sexier. Oh well. We'll see what the season bring and if right(I usually am) or wrong(not likely).

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Having two shooting big men is a great thing to have. Kurt Thomas is a big man with a jumpshot but we cant have him hanging out on the perimeter he's our best(or second) best rebounder. Many times the Knicks went with Doleac and Kurt down the stretch because it was effective.

Nazr is in no way shape or form better than Doleac. Those numbers you put up mrj18 are a testament to how bad the Knick shooting was. The shooting was so bad without Van Horn and Doleac even Nazr could get some rebounds. Nazr played almost a full quarter more than Doleac there really should be a bigger disparity in points and rebounds. Nazr is simply a bad rebounder which is surprising since all he does is hang around the basket and wait for someone to miss. He looks completely lost when he's out on the floor. Like he's some guy who wandered off the street and into a basketball game. Like I said before there are things that dont appear in the box score. Setting picks and bringing the opposing shot blocker out of the paint doesnt show up. Even if your right(which believe me you arent) and Nazr is better than Doleac, Doleac is still more valuable to the Knicks. In the end it's not the players who matter its the team. Doleac gave the Knicks versatility. He gave them options. He didnt drop the ball out of bounds and didnt commit stupid fouls. I would say he was a better on ball defender but I'll leave that alone. He also brought something else to the table in chemistry. Nazr isnt a good fit for this team no matter how fast or strong he is. This is basketball not track and field. All he will do for the Knicks is hang around the basket, do nothing and give the opposing center nothing to worry about. Every now and then he'll have a good game(and the Knicks will probably have lost that game since they were probably shooting badly) and you'll come and tell me he's better than Doleac. I've heard all the same arguments before about that Van Horn and Doleac trade. And although athleticism is important the Olympics have shown us that skill is much better and will always beat out athleticism. These two guys we have now dont have skill. While some people think Tim Thomas dunking on people is a beautiful thing I think Van Horn shooting a three pointer is even sexier. Oh well. We'll see what the season bring and if right(I usually am) or wrong(not likely).</div>


He owned yall right there, lol. The Knicks board is lucky to have you here.

 

Are you seriously saying doleac is better than Nazr? all doleac can do is shoot and hes soft, and nazi can rebound. Anyway i dont no that much about those two but from the games i've watched, Nazr is def better than doleac.as for kvh and thomas I agree. kvh is way better than thomas, but i also agree that kvh plays with no heart and dissapears in the 4th. wen he was in philly, the last game of the 02-03 season he had 6 points against the pistons in the game 6 of the semi finals. 6 POINTS!!!AND HES THE SECOND LEADING SCORER. But still i agree with u hes def better than Tim Thomas.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Having two shooting big men is a great thing to have. Kurt Thomas is a big man with a jumpshot but we cant have him hanging out on the perimeter he's our best(or second) best rebounder. Many times the Knicks went with Doleac and Kurt down the stretch because it was effective.

Nazr is in no way shape or form better than Doleac. Those numbers you put up mrj18 are a testament to how bad the Knick shooting was. The shooting was so bad without Van Horn and Doleac even Nazr could get some rebounds. Nazr played almost a full quarter more than Doleac there really should be a bigger disparity in points and rebounds. Nazr is simply a bad rebounder which is surprising since all he does is hang around the basket and wait for someone to miss. He looks completely lost when he's out on the floor. Like he's some guy who wandered off the street and into a basketball game. Like I said before there are things that dont appear in the box score. Setting picks and bringing the opposing shot blocker out of the paint doesnt show up. Even if your right(which believe me you arent) and Nazr is better than Doleac, Doleac is still more valuable to the Knicks. In the end it's not the players who matter its the team. Doleac gave the Knicks versatility. He gave them options. He didnt drop the ball out of bounds and didnt commit stupid fouls. I would say he was a better on ball defender but I'll leave that alone. He also brought something else to the table in chemistry. Nazr isnt a good fit for this team no matter how fast or strong he is. This is basketball not track and field. All he will do for the Knicks is hang around the basket, do nothing and give the opposing center nothing to worry about. Every now and then he'll have a good game(and the Knicks will probably have lost that game since they were probably shooting badly) and you'll come and tell me he's better than Doleac. I've heard all the same arguments before about that Van Horn and Doleac trade. And although athleticism is important the Olympics have shown us that skill is much better and will always beat out athleticism. These two guys we have now dont have skill. While some people think Tim Thomas dunking on people is a beautiful thing I think Van Horn shooting a three pointer is even sexier. Oh well. We'll see what the season bring and if right(I usually am) or wrong(not likely).</div>

We can't forget Doleac has had been with the Knicks longer than 25 games! And after the Van Horn trade Allan Houston was injured for almost the rest of the season. That is the main reason why the shooting was not very good. Doleac is just a shooting big man. And as you said earlier that you never heard of him before we got him. I'm sure many people have not heard of Michael Doleac. There is a reason why Mohammed gets more minutes than Doleac because he has more skill than him. Mohammed is turnover prone because he does more than catch the ball and shoot it. Sure he can be lazy and do some dumb things once and awhile but he is much better than Doleac. Who knows this trade might be a complete disaster but untill the regular season starts and we have a healthy Houston we can judge the trade. The real "Remember..." is when we had Sprewell instead of Van Horn.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Originally Posted by mrj18
Mohammed in New York 03-04 season:
ppg 9.1
rpg 7.7
apg .5
spg 1.22
fg: 56.3
ft: 52.5
to 1.52
mpg: 24.9
Doleac in New York 03-04 season:
ppg: 5.0
rpg: 4.1
apg: .7
spg: .37
ft: 86.7
to: .80
fg: 44.4
mpg:14.9

According to these stats Mohammed is better than Doleac</div>

If I could have your attention. Everyone, please look at the Minutes Per Game of both these players. Mohammed plays almost double the time Doleac plays. If Doleac plays as many minutes as Mohammed, he would average something along the lines of:

PPG: 10.0
RPG: 8.2
APG: 1.4
SPG: .74
FG%: 44.4
FT%: 86.7
TO: 1.60

compared to Mohammed's

PPG: 9.1
RPG: 7.7
APG: .5
SPG: 1.22
FG%: 56.3
FT%: 52.5
TO: 1.52

If you look at things this way, these two players are pretty simmilar. Now if you think about it, free-throw shooting is a pretty important part of the game isnt it? If a team doesn't hit their free-throws (which is pretty much free or close to it for any decent shooter) then their chanced to win are a lot slimmer. Mohammed can't shoot free-throws. If you think free-throws are not a factor, you are terribily misguided my friend. If I can bring you all back to two years ago in the playoffs. Dallas vs Sacramento. I forget which game it was, but that game, Dallas was fouled 50 times. They hit 49 of their FT's. They won by only a few points. Now if Mohammed shot 50 FTs, and hit 26 (approx 52%) of them, they would have 24 points less. That would have cost the team the game. Now if Doleac shot, he would hit 43 (approx 86%). Sure Doleac's FG% is lower than Mohammed's, but Mohammed took less shots. 33 less shots to be exact. Doleac attempted 225 shots while Mohammed attempted 192 shots. Doleac also shoots from the perimeter while Mohammed gets mostly dunks, layups, putbacks, etc.

I'm just proving my point that Mohammed IS NOT better than Doleac.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If I could have your attention. Everyone, please look at the Minutes Per Game of both these players. Mohammed plays almost double the time Doleac plays. If Doleac plays as many minutes as Mohammed, he would average something along the lines of:

PPG: 10.0
RPG: 8.2
APG: 1.4
SPG: .74
FG%: 44.4
FT%: 86.7
TO: 1.60</div>

You are just doubling his numbers. Doleac played 10 not 12 less minutes than Mohammed. Also you have to take stamina into consideration. And my point is Doleac is not good enough to recieve more than his usual 15 minutes per game. I know this is not a great example but even some video games like 2k5 rate Doleac 12 points less than Mohammed. I turn the question back to you. What makes Doleac better than Mohammed other than his shooting.

 

^that's all theoretical(SP?). You also forget, that there is a reaosn to why Mohammed plays more minutes than Doleac? The coach knows players the best and he plays the players(most of the time) based on what they can do for the team. If Doleac was better, would he not get more minutes?

 

No mrj18. Houston was out before the Van Horn trade. But the Knicks were still doing well. Until after Isiah Thomas decided that he should try to leave his mark on the Knicks and made that joke you call a trade. I'm embarassed as a Knick fan that he could be stupid enough to make that trade. Doleac is nothing but a big man with a jumpshot??? In that case Nazr is simply nothing. Because like I said the only way he gets his rebounds and points is if the Knicks are shooting really badly. And if the Knicks are shooting that badly their probably losing by about 20 pts. You have not said what Nazr brings to the table that Doleac doesnt. Do you know why? Because there is nothing. And everyone knows that. Iverson says Nazr is definetely a better defender than Doleac??? Mind watching a few Knicks games? I'm afraid your letting the fact that he's bigger and more built then Doleac cloud your judgement. Just watch how well he defends his man and compare it to Doleac when you see him play. You'll have to do this for awhile if your interested and you'll see what I mean. Picking up two cheap fouls in 3 minutes while letting your man get an and 1 isnt good defense. At least it wasnt last time I checked. Again this heart thing... I dont see how Tim Thomas has more heart than Van Horn. The man got fouled, whined to the media, called out Kenyon and never played. Then he starts talking again!!! The one time he could have made me say the trade wasnt the joke it really was and be a tough guy...he made himself look like a fugazy. Doleac was with Marbury for as long as Nazr's been with him so why has Nazr been so pathetic especially recently when he's fighting for HIS starting position. By the way jtam101 is right about their post. Nazr have more skill than Doleac?????????????? Isiah tried to pawn Nazr off to Golden State for Dampier. If that trade had gone down it wouldnt have been a steal....it would have been "highway robbery". The GM wasnt a sucker he went with a package that had Najera as a center piece. Najera!!!. Shows you how highly thought of Nazr is. Then again Najera hustles alot and tries. You want heart Najera is your man. Not Tim Thomas. I said I never heard of Bruno Sundov before and Nazr better watch out! If he's not careful Sundov might actually pull down a few rebounds and take away his job! Nazr got more minutes because we had no other centers to choose from and to try to work him into the Knick system. Since that has been a dismal failure(if you dont believe me read the paper) he wont be getting those minutes anymore. The best we can do with our center position now is start Kurt at center have Baker back him up and start Sweetney and have JYD back him up. Let Sundov be our third string center and put him Nazr on the Injured List so he can do what he does best...yes you guessed it....nothing.

 

^Houston's absence had just begun and was not felt untill after the all star break when the Knicks started to play other teams. I would trade Nazr for Damp any day too, but the fact of the matter is he is better than Doleac. He rebounds better, scores better and is faster, more aggressive, stronger and more athletic than Doleac. We need that aggresiveness back in the paint that Doleac never had. When was the last time Doleac dunked? When was the last time Doleac had 20pts, and 18 rebs? That's right never. He never even got the minutes to prove it because he's not good enough.

Tim Thomas was injured missing the series he was looking forward to playing way before it even started. When he was cutting to the basket preparing to serve a monster facial to Collins he gave him a cheap shot. He was not even attempting to swipe the ball he hacked him across the back causing Tim to miss the series. This affected the series outcome. And then Martin said "It's not like anyone got shot or anything." That is why Tim was so angry. I think he should have let it go but I think it will bring some positive fire to the court especially when he plays the Nuggets. Also let's not forget that Tim Thomas has been averaging career highs in most of his stats since coming to NY.

 

No sir. I remember those days clearly. I remember because I was shocked at how well the Knicks were doing without him. Houston had been out for a good while and then after the trade the Knicks starting doing badly. We both know it's because of the trade the Knicks starting doing badly. Just because Nazr does most of his nothing in the paint does not mean he's aggressive. Being aggressive is getting the ball and not being afraid to do something with it. Your right about the Knicks needing aggressiveness in the paint. But Nazr isnt the guy you want. He's dazed and confused out there on the court. He's so docile out there. I wonder if he's even awake. Who really cares about dunking??? Really now. I'm tired of this dunking nonsense. I want to see incredible dunks I'll pop in a tape of a slam dunk contest. I want wins not highlight reels. Your right about Doleac never having 20 pts and 18 rebounds. When was the last time Nazr made his prescence felt in a game in which the Knicks werent losing badly? Thats right. Never. As for his minutes...dont worry he'll probably be getting the garbage minutes he deserves if he keeps up the lousy play like I know he will. Scores better? Not if the Knicks are winning(cause that would mean the Knicks are shooting well). Again the more athletic nonsense...he certainly can run faster than Doleac. I wish he would just run and keep on running out of the Knickbocker's life. Being able to produce is more important than athleticism. He has no post up game and is a bad rebounder. He's about as useful on the offensive end as Ben Wallace as a rookie and isnt a good defender either. Now the whole well if he didnt get the minutes then he musnt have been good argument. Maybe if had gotten the minutes he would have been much better but now we'll never know. I dont have alot of faith in Lenny Wilkens. The man did afterall start Shandon Anderson over Penny Hardaway. Nazr Mohammed is not worth his pay grade and he never will be. He will not start he will get the same amount if not less minutes that Doleac got and he will do of course nothing while he's in the game because that is what nothings do.

Tim Thomas did a blatant walk and that was a dirty foul. I have no problem with a player being injured and not being able to play. I have a problem when someone talks alot and does nothing about it. I'm sorry to say it did not affect the series outcome. Because Tim Thomas is a nonfactor. Tim Thomas will not have a break out year despite our brand new uptempo game. He is satisfied with that level he's at now so he's done. No better and probably no worse. He isnt worth his pay grade either. But until we find a couple of suckers to take them off our hands were stuck with them.

 

Allan Houston was out for 7 games. The Knicks won their 1st 5 games and lost their last 2 then KVH and Doleac got traded. After this the Knicks were on a western trip in which they lost all their games. When the d isn't stretched everyone is collapsing on Marbury and he kicks it out to the real scrubs like anderson who can't shoot. Houston's shot was greatly missed as we all can see. That's one of the main reasons why we lost many games after the deal.

KVH was soft, and disappeared in the 4th but he did do his thing in NY. Isaiah said Nazr was the key to the deal and he wouldn't have done it Thomas for KVH straight up. The real reason why we traded him was because of the upgrade @ the f/c position. If Doleac was half as good as you said he would not have gotten waived by Atlanta even though he had an expiring contract. Mohammed probably wont start for most teams but Doleac wont start for any team. Doleac and Nazr are wack but Mohammed is better and to say Doleac was a better fit can not hold true untill we have our whole squad healthy and play a signifficant amount of games. BTW when Mohammed had 20, 18 it was when the Knicks beat the Raptors. Nazr also did have a few good games vs Philly too (I'm not talking about the ones we lost ).

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tim Thomas did a blatant walk and that was a dirty foul. I have no problem with a player being injured and not being able to play. I have a problem when someone talks alot and does nothing about it. I'm sorry to say it did not affect the series outcome. Because Tim Thomas is a nonfactor. Tim Thomas will not have a break out year despite our brand new uptempo game. He is satisfied with that level he's at now so he's done. No better and probably no worse. He isnt worth his pay grade either. But until we find a couple of suckers to take them off our hands were stuck with them.</div>

As I said before he is a starter now and he is averaging career highs in many stats since coming to NY. I think that he will have a pretty good year. This is his 'dream team' he said he always wanted to play in NY. He is aware Isaiah will find a way to trade him or something. He's not going to mess that up for himself.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">BTW when Mohammed had 20, 18 it was when the Knicks beat the Raptors.</div>

THE KNICKS BEAT THE RAPTORS?!?!?!? WOW!!!!!

Big deal, the Raptors did horrible last season. Their defense was horrible. Probably any big man could have easily destroyed the rap's tiny frontcourt. Name one team that Nazr Mohammed would/could start at the 5. And you're rating a player by a videogame? Then we wont need to record stats anymore. We wont even hafta have games going on anymore. We can just look at the rating in the games and determine who wins. Miami is rated @ 83, while the Lakers are rated @ 81? Ok! Then its decided, Miami wins. Right? No one knows until it is played out. We wouldnt need to have any sports, we can just rate teams and decide the winner. This must be the worst reason for someone to be better. Its a game. If i wanted to, i can make Doleac amazing and hit 3's by switchin the sliders. i can make him MVP. why? Because its A GAME. Welcome back to reality.

Mohammed scored 20pts and had 18 rebounds in one game. Does that make him amazing or allstar? Because Bob Sura had THREE triple doubles last year...Does that mean hes gonna be MVP? People get hot sometimes, catch fire and all their shots seem to fall, and everything they do seems to be the right thing. that was one of those days. everyone has em, even me. If Doleac caught fire and played lots of minutes he might get 20/18 too. Its consistency that makes players stars, and that is certainly one thing that Mohammed doesnt have

 

Isiah has tried to trade Tim Thomas before. But his value is at an all time low. He's heavily overpaid for the little stuff that he does. Please dont lecture me about the importance of having an outside shooter. In case you havent noticed Houston is my all time favorite player. So yes I know what happened when the Knicks lost their outside shooting. The thing is before the trade we did have outside shooting in Van Horn so Houston's abscence wasnt felt as much. Marbury did his thing and Van Horn kept the defense honest. After the trade well...we both know what happened. You are aware that after the trade that Isiah tried to get Doleac back(I think him and the Hawks agreed to waive Doleac so that he could pick him up again) but was picked up by the Nuggets and signed to a four year contract by the Heat who are looking to make a championship run(and have a fairly good chance at it)? The thing is we were fine with Doleac and Van Horn and Houston out. After the trade...things went south. So Nazr had a good game. He'll have those everynow and then. But dont think too much of it. Because whenever he has something remotely close to a good game...he'll be nothing for 4 or 5 games. Do you really think your the first person to say that he's going to have a pretty good year? People have been saying that about him for quite awhile. Every year is supposed to be his breakout year. It's not going to happen. Just letting you know. Career averages??? Like what? Because Van Horn has him beat out in just about every category even rebounds. Nazr is not better than Doleac. You say Doleac wouldnt start on any team? He'd start over Nazr on the Knicks. Because there is nothing that Nazr can do that Doleac cant do. He can even do all the little things that poor old clumsy Nazr Bumbling Mohammed cant.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Big deal, the Raptors did horrible last season. Their defense was horrible. Probably any big man could have easily destroyed the rap's tiny frontcourt. Name one team that Nazr Mohammed would/could start at the 5. And you're rating a player by a videogame? Then we wont need to record stats anymore. We wont even hafta have games going on anymore. We can just look at the rating in the games and determine who wins. Miami is rated @ 83, while the Lakers are rated @ 81? Ok! Then its decided, Miami wins. Right? No one knows until it is played out. We wouldnt need to have any sports, we can just rate teams and decide the winner. This must be the worst reason for someone to be better. Its a game. If i wanted to, i can make Doleac amazing and hit 3's by switchin the sliders. i can make him MVP. why? Because its A GAME. Welcome back to reality.</div>

The video game rating system is accurate to a certain extent it is the oppinions of many different people. This was not my only evidence. And messing with the sliders and attributes and stuff will not give you an accurate rating! No one was talking about comparing different teams that have 2 points less. 2 points is very small as oppose to 12 points which is drastic! And I don't see Doleac putting up number like 20 and 18? I don't remember one game when Doleac put up any great numbers. Mohammed averaged about 10 and 8 two seasons ago. Doleac's numbers are about 4 and 4. There is no way you can tell me he is better than Nazr. Nazr will give you about 7 and 7 on an average night. What will Doleac give you? If he does give you something it sure wont be as good as Nazr's numbers.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah has tried to trade Tim Thomas before. But his value is at an all time low. He's heavily overpaid for the little stuff that he does. Please dont lecture me about the importance of having an outside shooter. In case you havent noticed Houston is my all time favorite player. So yes I know what happened when the Knicks lost their outside shooting. The thing is before the trade we did have outside shooting in Van Horn so Houston's abscence wasnt felt as much. Marbury did his thing and Van Horn kept the defense honest. After the trade well...we both know what happened. You are aware that after the trade that Isiah tried to get Doleac back(I think him and the Hawks agreed to waive Doleac so that he could pick him up again) but was picked up by the Nuggets and signed to a four year contract by the Heat who are looking to make a championship run(and have a fairly good chance at it)? The thing is we were fine with Doleac and Van Horn and Houston out. After the trade...things went south. So Nazr had a good game. He'll have those everynow and then. But dont think too much of it. Because whenever he has something remotely close to a good game...he'll be nothing for 4 or 5 games. Do you really think your the first person to say that he's going to have a pretty good year? People have been saying that about him for quite awhile. Every year is supposed to be his breakout year. It's not going to happen. Just letting you know. Career averages??? Like what? Because Van Horn has him beat out in just about every category even rebounds. Nazr is not better than Doleac. You say Doleac wouldnt start on any team? He'd start over Nazr on the Knicks. Because there is nothing that Nazr can do that Doleac cant do. He can even do all the little things that poor old clumsy Nazr Bumbling Mohammed cant.
__________________
</div>

Isaiah tried to get him back because we needed all the help we could get at the time. He wasn't going to start if we got him back he would just be a role player. And if Doleac is so good to start why hasn't he ever in his Knicks career? Finally Tim's ppg, 3p%, ft% have all gone up.

 

We'll we did have a lousy coach in Chaney and I think it was mentioned before he was hurt in his first season in NY. Then the Knicks got Mutumbo who would be starting right now over Nazr if he was still in NY. Doleac like I said before usually played down the stretch alongside Kurt Thomas. Your argument about Doleac not being better than Nazr because he doesnt get as many minutes is ludicrous. There are plenty of great players who dont get a chance to prove themselves. Nazr puts up better numbers because he played almost a full quarter more than Doleac. And dont say that Nazr played more minutes than Doleac because he's better. Wilkens started Shandon Anderson over Penny Hardaway so it's clear he doesnt know what he's doing. Tim Thomas's points per game went up because he was the second option on the Knicks. His three point shooting percentage went up because it couldnt have gotten much worse. He's not a three point shooter. And I'm so happy his free throw percentage has gone up. Now if only Nazr's free throw percentage will go up. Let the videogame thing go. Please. It's really not very accurate. How is Nazr better than Doleac when Doleac will put up similiar numbers as Nazr given the minutes and even make the opposing center play defense. As well as set picks which is very important for the Knicks since guards live off of screens and most of the Knicks scoring will come from Marbury, Houston and Crawford. Nazr doesnt complement these guys well. By the way you say Doleac doesnt operate in the paint but he spends most of his time on the perimeter(you know making the opposing center play defense). But if he had the same minutes as Nazr their numbers would be identical. Imagine if he just did what Nazr did and hang around the basket waiting for someone to miss. Bottom line Doleac complements the guys we have well. He's a big man who can step out and shoot so our best(or second) rebounder can hit the boards, take the opposing center out of the paint, set screens so our perimeter players can have an easier time scoring, isnt clumsy, can keep up with the action and have good chemistry with the rest of the team. Tell me what does Nazr do that helps the team. Because this is afterall a teamgame. We already have guys who can hit the boards. Kurt Thomas, Sweetney, JYD. Baker is just as good at rebounding and even has a mid range jumpshot plus a post up game. There is nothing Nazr can bring that can make the team better. He isnt a great rebounder or defender. Why dont you just admit the trade was bad? We can argue like this until Judgement Day but in the end there isnt a thing that Nazr brings that'll help this team more then what Doleac had to offer. Doleac's services will be greatly missed.

 

Okay the videogame thing wasn't a great example I'll admit that. Tim Thomas was not a horrible 3point shooter. He was always a pretty decent one so I don't know what you mean when he says it couldn't have gotten much worse. And if Mutumbo would be starting over Nazr why didn't he when he was here? Tell me great players that don't get many minutes. If the player is great I'm sure he'd be playing more than 15 mpg. Even though Tim was the second option he still improved. Doleac makes the opposing center play defense but he hangs out on the perimeter too much to contribute inside. That is one of a center's main goals, everything else is secondary. Some players are better as starters than they are on the bench. Look at Joe Johnson. And others provide good things on the bench look at Jamison. I'm pretty sure Wilkens put Hardaway on the bench for a spark. When Anderson starts he averages around 15ppg. I think that was a smart move by Lenny Wilkens. Nazr only played 27 games for NY mostly w/o Houston. Give it time! And finally other than Doleac's jumpshot what makes him better than Nazr?

 

I didnt say Tim Thomas was a lousy three point shooter. I just said he couldnt get alot worse. And he couldnt. The reason why Nazr started over Mutumbo is because Isiah thought he had something special in Nazr(boy was he wrong). He was trying to force Nazr into the starting line up. Thats why. What does Houston have to do with Nazr doing well? Are you telling me none of the great players started their career off the bench until someone discovered their large amount of talent and started playing them more? Your missing the point. It's the combination of things that makes Doleac more valuable than Nazr. He simply better for this team. Wit Doleac outside and Kurt Thomas inside the paint we can bring out their shot blocker and/or their potentially best rebounder outside so Kurt Thomas can crash the boards. Doleac knows how to set picks to make scoring alot easier for our guards. Since Doleac's and Nazr's numbers are identical per 48 minutes all of this extra stuff makes Doleac more useful. Having a jumpshooting big man gives a team a different look. If Nazr was a superior rebounder or much superior defender than Doleac I might be inclined to believe that Nazr is better for the team. But you have yet to tell me what makes him more useful than Doleac. I repeat per 48 minutes their numbers are identical. But Doleac does more stuff that is created because of his shooting touch. Besides an athleticism which he doesnt seem to know how to use he has nothing on Doleac. Like it or not Doleac is better for the team. Why do you have such a problem admitting that? I know you've been wanting a center who operates in the paint. But that doesnt mean he's better for the team. Especially when that center is as lackluster as Nazr. Granted other than his shooting Doleac is lackluster as well but like I said having a shooting big man is very useful. Especially when he's solid on both ends and is consistent. Nazr explodes every once and a while then goes back to doing nothing. That really isnt good. I know your thinking Isiah can get him to be consistent but until he does...I'll have to say Doleac is better. When Nazr proves himself and only when he proves himself then I'll say he's better. But right now... Doleac would have been much more useful. (Sorry if I made a few grammar errors or wasnt too clear it's kind of late and I'm kind of sleepy)

 

Houston's outside shooting can open up the inside so Mohammed can do some damage offf glass. Also we can't really see how the team will all fit together if we don't have every single player. Some started their career on the bench but after they started improving a lot. At Doleac's eigth year having career averages of 5.6pts and 3.6rpg what is there to discover? Nazr is a pretty decent rebounder as well. His post game could use some work but he has talent and now that we have Marbury and Crawford who are all good passers, I'm sure Nazr's game will look much better.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hell you can even bring in Layden. Just get rid of Isiah.</div>

Im late on this thread but after reading this comment, I think ill not touch it at all.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Houston's outside shooting can open up the inside so Mohammed can do some damage offf glass. Also we can't really see how the team will all fit together if we don't have every single player. Some started their career on the bench but after they started improving a lot. At Doleac's eigth year having career averages of 5.6pts and 3.6rpg what is there to discover? Nazr is a pretty decent rebounder as well. His post game could use some work but he has talent and now that we have Marbury and Crawford who are all good passers, I'm sure Nazr's game will look much better.</div>

Can you just tell me how Nazr is more valuable to the Knicks already? Please!!!I've said quite a few things backing Doleac already. Look up if you didnt see or forgot what I said. Given the same amount of time Doleac's stats are equal to, better than or not significantly worse than Nazr's. You cant argue with that. I've said many times the intangibles Doleac brings makes him better. So please tell me how Nazr is better. Dont say he's a better rebounder because given the same amount of time their the same. So how is Nazr better??? Tell me what does Nazr offer that outweighs what Doleac offers?? Answer that question before you say anything else. I'm not unreasonable. If your right I'll agree with you. But you havent said anything else besides Nazr's more athletic(he doesnt seem to know how to use it). The only other thing youve said is that he does his work in the paint but he doesnt have a real edge on Doleac in rebounds. I repeat PLEASE tell me Nazr could possibly be better for the Knicks. It takes more than talent to be good in professional basketball. Tim Thomas is more talented than Van Horn but Van Horn is without a doubt better. It also takes skill, determination, high basketball IQ and heart. All of which Nazr is sorely lacking. Dont respond until you have the answer to my question. And I'll even do you the favor of repeating it, What does Nazr offer to the Knicks that outweights what Doleac offered? Dont answer until youve got the answer to that question so I'm guessing I'll have the last post in this thread since the answer to that question doesnt exist.