Remember....

^ It's quite simple the Knicks are lacking big bodies. Nazr is a better rebounder and inside scorer and that is exactly what we need. Don't get me wrong he is not a great one but he is a big step from Doleac. Tim Thomas will also play more PF this season due to his size and strength. He has a pretty good post game he just needs to put all that talent together. He has underachieved in his career but, I think he his getting his act together. I have no evidence but his word but I can feel it. Doing the intangebles are important but if your game is just limited to that and one or two other things you're not that good. Doleac could just shoot and set picks that's it! Mohammed contributed more to the scoring, rebounding and the defense. He is more valuable to the team. If Travis Knight did the same things as Doleac and we were winning games would he be better than Mohammed? Are the 76ers better w/o AI? They won many games w/o him. The fact of the matter is although we might have been winning before the trade and we are not now is no reason to hate on the trade. As I said before the trade is too early to be judged so we will not know until New York plays a decent amount of games but, one thing that is sure is that Nazr is better than Doleac. Plain and simple.

 

How can you say Nazr is a better rebounder when given the same minutes their rpg are identical???? I dont understand. He scores his points by pulling down rebounds and getting easy put backs. But he's not a great rebounder which is the problem. He isnt a Sweetney type or a Jeff Foster type. Tim Thomas should just stay away from the powerforward position. If Isiah wanted a guy who could play small forward and powerforward he shouldnt have made the trade. Again I repeat GIVEN THE SAME MINUTES THEIR NUMBERS ARE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is not too early to be judged. And I too thought Nazr was better than Doleac when he first came. Then I realized that he wasnt a good rebounder, didnt have a low post game worth mentioning, and wasnt a great defender. Have you seen these two guys(TT and Nazr) play??? You have faith in these guys??? The moment I saw Tim Thomas shoot the ball for the first time I knew the Knicks were in trouble. Apparently Isiah did too since he's abandon all thought of having TT as the 3rd option and will now have TT as the fourth option behind Houston, Marbury and Crawford. So you think Nazr is better than Doleac because he's a better rebounder which isnt true, more of an inside scorer but with his weak rebounding he wont be doing much scoring? That's your reasoning. Nevermind the fact that he'll be next to useless on the offensive side of things. That he'll just be another body. You dont care that Marbury wont be able to get into paint where he is most dangerous? You dont care that the opposing center will just sit back and do nothing on defense? You dont care that our guards will have a harder time scoring? Interesting. Since we already have an inside scorer in Sweetney dont you think it would have been nice to be able to throw other teams a curveball? Create problems for them. Doleac can cause those sort of problems, Nazr cant. For a guy who's supposed to be an "inside scorer" dont you think it's strange that he has as many rebounds as a guy who stands out on the perimeter? Nazr will not get any better than he is right now. Other GM's have traded for this guy because theyve had the same feeling about him you have. The only upside to Nazr is that he cant get any worse. Everything you've said is funny. You keep saying Nazr is a better rebounder when it's clear he isnt. And he's a weak inside prescence. We dont need a weak rebounder who cant do anything else when we have Sweetney, Kurt and JYD. Nazr is quite simply lousy at his own game. He is in essence Doleac without a jumpshot and cant set screens and isnt consistent. That is what he is. Plain and simple.

 

Obviously we have two different oppinions of a good rebounder. I think a good rebounder pulls down 7.7 a game. How could you say someone who grabs almost 8 boards a game is a weak rebounder? KVH could play both SF PF due to size but he is way too weak to be a PF. Nazr is a much better defender than Doleac is. If anything Doleac lacks defensive toughness. TT simply has 3 better players than him as options. If Dolaec is as good has you claim he is WHY HASN'T HE GOT HIS MINUTES?!?!?! the coaches know how the players play and if he was truly so valuable to the Knicks I'm sure he would have gotten more minutes. Nazr has recieved more minutes than Doleac throughout his whole career. When Van Horn came to NY he really struggled a lot in the begining. It wasn't untill probably late December when he started to pickup his game. How do you know it can't happen to these two. Sweetney's post game and Nazr's work in the paint such as those putbacks and tip ins can be lethal for opposing teams. With everyone on the perimeter and no one decent in the paint how can we get open shots for ourshooters?

 

My point is if Doleac is a weak rebounder then Nazr has to be too since they both would have the same amount of rebounds if they played the same amount of minutes. Like I said KVH would have been a much better option at powerforward than TT. He simply knows how to play that position. If he was way too weak to play powerforward why would that be his position when he first came into the NBA? Nazr is not a MUCH better defender. He makes stupid fouls. And doesnt play smart. You know all of this already. Your whole minutes thing is kind of funny considering Nazr's minutes are about to get cut because he's on the verge of losing his job to Kurt Thomas. So if Nazr plays the same minutes as Doleac that would mean he isnt valuable? Doleac is a great back up player who like I said before finished alot of games for the Knicks. Their are tons of reasons why a coach wouldnt give Doleac alot of minutes. There is a better center. Thats one reason. The coach recognized he would be at his best coming off the bench. Nazr probably got more minutes because coaches needed all the help they can get or they were trying to force him into the lineup. So you really have to leave this whole minutes thing alone since neither you or I know all the facts about their coaches, the teams they used to be on and how the team ran their offense. I dont really remember Van Horn struggling alot. As I recall he scored 30 pts opening night. I've never seen him so consistent in his entire career as he was in New York. As for TT and Nazr...it isnt like their trying to find their roles on a brand new team or theyve just hit a slump. This is the story of their entire careers. They are chronic underachievers. And that's all they'll ever be. Everyone on the perimeter??? Your just not listening. It's obvious. If you cant see how having a shooting big man can help a team I dont know what to say. They certainly caused alot of nightmares for Team USA. Sweetney can be that person in the paint. And since we have a shooting big man that'll make his job that much easier. Not to mention all the other things I've said which you've chosen to ignore. That occasional tip in by Nazr does not come close to everything I just said Doleac does and you know that. While it's nice having a center who works in the paint its better to have versatility. Since we already have a bunch of great rebounders Doleac's outside shooting would have been a great asset(especially since Nazr has nothing on him besides an ability to pick up two early fouls in the first quarter). Nazr was not needed. The trade was bad.

 

When KVH first came they thought he was going to be the next Larry Bird. Things change. Nazr is atleast a questionable starter as oppose to Doleac who is just a bench player. They are wresting with the idea of Kurt Thomas being the starter over Nazr. Doleac was never even considered to be a starter. Nazr is very foul prone and does make silly fouls sometimes but that just shows he is trying. Doleac has no defensive presence whatsoever. It's pretty obvious the less minutes you get the less your service needed. Also you need to take the intangibles into consideration (Doleac's picks are not enough to be a major factor). Nazr can run on the break well, he gives teams tougher times in the paint and if you leave him alone on offense he will make a put back dunk. I didn't say having a shooting big man couldn't help a team. I love the way Kurt Thomas and Nowitzki shoot. It's just when your'e just limited to that and that only like Doleac. Team USA didn't play that great defense overall that was their main problem.

 

I'm not even going to argue with you over this anymore. I've made points youve repeated the exact same thing. Nazr got more minutes(and in your mind that means he's better) even though he'll probably be regulated to the bench at the start of this season. Nazr has more of a defensive prescence which I think is funny since we really cant judge that. I get the feeling you think Nazr is more of a defensive prescence because he's black since his alleged superior defensive prescence doesnt show up in the stats. By the way here's another stat for you in the preseason Vin Baker and Nazr Mohammed combined average 10 points and 8 rebounds which clearly means Nazr isnt a 7 and 7 guy as you claimed. You keep ignoring the fact that they post up identical numbers given the same minutes. You havent answered that. Not that surprises me since that is the whole basis of your argument. Picks arent enough? How about bringing the other team's shot blocker out of the paint so Marbury can go do his stuff without fear of getting blocked? Not a major impact? Or bringing out their best rebounder out of the paint so Kurt Thomas one of our best rebounders can have an easier time getting the rebound? Some centers have problems defending the pick and roll(Shaq is a fine exampe). Nazr makes silly fouls and silly plays all the time. He's simply not a smart player. His basketball IQ is low. Which proves talent alone does not a good basketball player make. When Jason Collins starts scoring on you,you know you have a problem. Did you see the game last night? Nazr was not impressive at all!!! How can you say you'd rather have Nazr when just we have guys who do his job better than him? Nazr is supposed to be the guy who does the dirty work but JYD does it much better than him. Again I say Nazr Mohammed is nothing but a less intelligent, less consistent Doleac without a jumpshot. And the numbers prove it. Doleac's jumpshot is more valuable to the Knicks than Nazr's occasional tip in.

 

Nobody takes preseason very seriously. What a team/player faces in the preseason is nothing compared to the regular season. Many good players are averaging very low in the preseason. Players with more minutes usually mean they are trying to prove something or figting for playing time. Nazr will be much better if this were a regular season game. Nazr's mere presence might make you think twice before going into the paint. He has been averaging about a block a game. With Doleac no players have to think before throwing it down on him. With Kurt Thomas around, the Knicks don't really need another shooting big man. It would be helpful but it's not as necessary as another big body to rebound. Doleac is not good enough to get the same minutes as Mohammed. Nazr's put backs and dunks are used at the end of games a lot. Remember the Game 4 alley-oop, the Wizards buzzer beating tip in to force OT, that overtime attempt in Phlly. He dunked it in time he technically wasn't able to touch the ball with .2 seconds left. It was a great try though. The only time I remember Doleac being able to play in the last seconds of the game, he was stuffed by Okur as time expired.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I get the feeling you think Nazr is more of a defensive prescence because he's black since his alleged superior defensive prescence doesnt show up in the stats.</div>

Where does race come in? How are you going to tell me what I think about a player based on his race? So are trying to say that if a player is black that makes him a great defender? As a black person I feel offended by that comment. I came here to talk about basketball not the nationalities of people!

 

<font size="5"><font color="Red">WARNING!</font></font>

The next time that <font color="DarkRed">race </font> is brought up as a factor in ANY WAY, this thread will be immediately locked.

 

My sincerest apologies about the race thing. It came across the wrong way. Just something I learned a long time agoin in Psychology. I meant it the same way a team that is wearing darker colors appear more aggressive than a team that is wearing lighter colors. I should have clarified myself before I said something like that. It was late, I was sleepy and for some odd reason I thought everyone would know what I meant and where I was coming from(guess I was really sleepy). Sometimes I'm too smart for my own good. I didnt mean anything else by it. I am sorry.

Alot of players dont care about the preseason but there are exceptions. When a player is fighting for a starting position that player does play hard because he's playing for a starting position. So Nazr's should be hustling out there on the court and doing all that he can and he is. Doleac isnt good enough to get the same amount of minutes as Nazr but puts up the same kinds of numbers?? That makes sense to you? There should be a bigger disparity in their numbers if Nazr is starting material and Doleac isnt. The only reason Nazr's numbers are as high as they are is because every now and then he has a monster game which brings his numbers up. He gets so many minutes because he has alot of potential and coaches are trying to get him to tap into it. But just like TT he never will. They are classic underachievers. You keep avoiding the fact that Doleac was consistent and Nazr was the very epitome of inconsistency. Everytime he had a supergame you could be sure that alot of his nothing games werent far behind.

Look I'm sorry again for race comment. It was completely innocent. I did think better about saying it but then I started feeling clever and I went against my better judgement. Sorry if I offended anybody. I just have a knack for putting my foot in my mouth. I apologize to the entire Knick forum and any visitors to the Knick forum. I wont say anything like that again.

 

It's ok, just don't let it happen again. I would have been in this argument with you guys, but I had a pretty good feeling that the race issue would arise. It was difficult to resist this thread, but I did it. Hopefully mrj18 will accept your apology.
Do not let it happen again, if you can.

Please, resume.

 

It's all good Tribute to H2O. I was unawre of your intent. It was so random it kind of caught me off guard. I accept your apology. In my opinion the only way both of us will see the true value of the trade is when the Knicks play their first couple of games this season. There's probably no use in arguing over this anymore

 

Your right. Only thing left do is watch the season progress. By the way when the Knicks start winning all their games and their the hottest thing in the East...it'll be because of Allan Houston not Mr. Mohammed.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Your right. Only thing left do is watch the season progress. By the way when the Knicks start winning all their games and their the hottest thing in the East...it'll be because of Allan Houston not Mr. Mohammed.</div>


I find this a ridiculous statement. Allan Houston will NOT be the reason they win. He may contribute to a few wins here and there but Houston doesn't have the type of game nor the mentality to do that. The reason the Knicks start winning will rely on their front court....Kurt Thomas,Vin Baker,Mike Sweetney & Tim Thomas have to garner some kind of cohesion and play good consistently on both ends of the floor...and it will rely on consistent UNSELFISH play from Jamal Crawford.

I think Jamal was a terrible addition as well as Tim Thomas. Neither of these guys bring anything to the table that the Knicks haven't already got and both are as selfish as they come. The key is to make Marbury realize he isn't the only one who can consistently make shots. If Crawford & Thomas start jackin up bad shots constantly then Marbury will take the burden back on himself and that will be bad for the team.

 

Allan Houston's untouchable shot is key for the Knicks. Their strong backcourt makes up for some of the frontcourts weaknesses. With a penetrator, a shooter, and a developing post presence we will definitely be able to succeed. The way houston stretches the D is crucial for the Knicks success.

 

Thank you mrj18...beat me to it.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Allan Houston's untouchable shot is key for the Knicks. Their strong backcourt makes up for some of the frontcourts weaknesses. With a penetrator, a shooter, and a developing post presence we will definitely be able to succeed. The way houston stretches the D is crucial for the Knicks success.</div>


when Allan Houston is on the floor he has the potential to help your team win however if he doesn't have the ball he does nothing. He doesn't defend. He does nothing but shoot. On defense its on par to having 4 players on the floor and when this cat goes cold he is on ice. The Knicks need all around players,not selfish gunners to be successful.

more than anything the Knicks need toughness and a willingness to sacrifice for the team. You have that in Kurt Thomas,who is IMO the heart and soul of this team much like Oakley was back in the day,but guys like Tim Thomas,Houston & Jamal Crawford detract from the overall team dynamic.

the Knicks are one of my all time favorite teams but i think Knicks fans are severely overrating this team,especially Jamal Crawford. Getting Jamal and trading KVH are two of the worst moves Isiah could have made,took two steps forward and three back. trading Kurt Thomas would be the biggest mistake this franchise could make at this point. No one else on this team brings the things to the table that he does.

in all honesty. lets look at the 5 best players and tell me what the exactly says this team will win the atlantic like some of you claim.

Tim Thomas - selfish overrated perimeter player. can't defend. isn't a good post player and has something of an attitude problem.

Jamal Crawford - selfish,inconsistent as hell. fundamentally awful. attitude problem.

Allan Houston - one dimensional gunner. does nothing but shoot.

Vin Baker - i don't need to rehash anything on this cat.

Marbury - selfish player if there ever was one. takes alot of bad shots. attitude detrimental to the team. a non leader.

look at this and honestly tell me that this team looks like a winner. if anything this team will resemble alot of the vastly overrated Portland teams. Just throw abunch of stars on a team and hope for the best.

and you have to question lenny wilkens. i don't think his heart is in it anymore but we'll see.

i just don't see it. i think this team will be a flop because Isiah doesn't seem to have done anything other than get a bunch of talented players together and hope they win. he hasn't paid alot of mind to team chemistry or the types of players these guys are. You cannot put these types of players together and expect to win. when you have 4+ guys that demand the ball,and who do not play well without the ball, you have a recipe for failure.

 

Allan Houston doesnt need to have the ball to make an impact on the game. His mere prescence spreads the floor so that other players like Stephon Marbury can do their thing without fear of a double team. Can any of the shooting guards really stop each other? I think not. Houston has dropped 40 points on Doug Christie who is one of the best perimeter defenders in the game today, 50 on Kobe Bryant who is also a great defender(I hope you understand what I mean). Houston might be one dimensional but the dimension he has mastered is also the most important. Believe me noone here overrated Tim Thomas. I have absolutley no faith in him. Sometimes he does bother to defend though. Jamal Crawford is I've said it before is inconsistent but we have so many "gunners' it doesnt matter if he's on or not. I dont know if he's selfish though. He takes bad shots sometimes but I dont think he's selfish. Marbury is a shoot first point guard but he does pass the ball. And yes the game has passed Lenny Wilkens by.

I dont know what you mean by guys like Tim Thomas and Houston detract from the overall team dynamic. Someone has to score the points. And this Knick team will be looking to score alot of points this season. You dont even mention the great bench the Knicks have. The fact that Sweetney is developing a post up game. Just pointing out the negatives.

You think this Knick team will flop??? Well I know your wrong. This team is fully loaded at all positions and armed for bear. This isnt the first team that has had a bunch of scorers. Dallas had a team like this before. Steve Nash, Finley, Nowitzski to name a few. And they did very well for themselves before they got Antoine Walker. Isiah as much as I want him to be fired has taken into consideration the types of players they are. And the game plan is simple. Our perimeter players score the bulk of the points while our frontline which has quite a few good rebounders in it(Kurt, Sweetney, JYD) rebound any missed shots. That in essence is the plan like it or not thats the plan and this is the team that the Knicks will have when they go to the Eastern Conference Semifinals. Sorry if I was rambling(its kind of late).