Seattle Sonics @ LA Lakers Preseason Preview

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Considering this forum is part of JBB and Its my job to check out threads, I'm obviously going to give my comments when I see fit. Giving Kobe that many minutes is very stupid, any logical fan would agree. I certainly wouldn't want a guy like Tim Duncan or Ben Wallace playing that many minutes.</div>
Okay, then you be a coach. Take the Sonics, for example.

<font color="Green">Potapenko, Radmanovic, Lewis, Allen, and Daniels (2004)</font>

and trade off everyone but Ray Allen...and end up with

<font color="Green">Mihm, Grant, Odom, Allen, Daniels (2005)</font>

Okay, you have the preseason for your NEW team to play together. Who's your go-to guy? Ray Allen? Okay...

Now play him for 20 minutes a game. Are you going to allow your team to build around themselves, or Ray Allen? Ohh...then you don't play him for 20 minutes...you play him for 35.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">In Kobe's fans minds making one block suddenly means he schooled Ray then I guess Ray hitting a few threes in his face also means kobe got schooled.</div>
Okay, then tell me where I said that. I said that Ray Allen performed worse than Kobe, even from downtown. One block erased the steal that Allen pulled off...so what's new? I saw that coming.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">when Ray has faced Kobe...He has won far more one on one battles than he has lost. But again Kobe is more wrapped up on beating Ray one on one than playing with his team-mates.</div>
No, looks like Ray is more wrapped up in that than Kobe is...by attempting to add fuel to the fire that's already burning from the other ignorant comments. Ray is the one that mouthed off about shot attempts, yet he took more than Kobe, and had a worse FG%. What do you say about that? Please, please criticize Ray...for once.

Ray has already been embarassed by his own comments, when everyone checked the box scores and noticed that he was bashing his own performance.

Thing is...Ray was spitting BS, when it should've been directed towards him instead. If you disagree with that, look at what he said, and then look at his performance.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Homey, you are helping prove the point that Ray Allen made.</div>
No...Ray Allen was criticizing Kobe for taking too many shots in the game, but Allen took more attempts in less minutes, and shot worse from the three also. That's my point. If you don't do better than the guy you plan to bash, then you don't comment.

He didn't criticize the Lakers...he criticized Kobe. A single person, a single performance. I don't care if he was talking about leading the team to a win...because Ray Allen wasn't the only player who contributed to that win anyways.

Fact is, Kobe was the only one out there playing offensively (and possibly Slava). It wasn't going to be a complete "team unity" for the Lakers, since it was their first ever game together, so obviously, Kobe had to pick up the slack. Ray Allen had NO excuse...Lewis and Daniels were playing a great game. Simple as that.

I should criticize Ray Allen for taking too many shots and only throwing 5 assists in the 38 minutes he was playing, right? Kobe had 3 assists, even with the poor shooting by everyone else on the team.

But...I won't talk trash on Ray Allen, because then I'd be wrong...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, you have the preseason for your NEW team to play together. Who's your go-to guy? Ray Allen? Okay...

Now play him for 20 minutes a game. Are you going to allow your team to build around themselves, or Ray Allen? Ohh...then you don't play him for 20 minutes...you play him for 35.
</div>

Pre-season teams should have enough players and camp invites to fill out the roster for each game and not force stats to play big minutes. Allen should play between 20-25 a game tops. Anymore is just risking injury. And for a guy who has had problems last year playing all 82 games..there's no point in potenially missing any games. Same goes for Kobe.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Okay, then tell me where I said that. I said that Ray Allen performed worse than Kobe, even from downtown. One block erased the steal that Allen pulled off...so what's new? I saw that coming.
</div>

I was talking about all the fans who go overboard just because Kobe makes one nice play they consider that been schooled. Obviously that point wasn't directed at you. I would hope you are too smart to consider one block being "schooled" those people who do are called groupies.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, looks like Ray is more wrapped up in that than Kobe is...by attempting to add fuel to the fire that's already burning from the other ignorant comments. Ray is the one that mouthed off about shot attempts, yet he took more than Kobe, and had a worse FG%. What do you say about that? Please, please criticize Ray...for once.
</div>

I somehow doubt Ray was just talking about that one pre-season game when he stated the words "selfish" It's more to do with Kobe over the course of a season. Mainly last year where he hogged his way to 38% shooting in the finals

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thing is...Ray was spitting BS, when it should've been directed towards him instead. If you disagree with that, look at what he said, and then look at his performance.</div>

Again, his comments to me was more directed at the season ahead more than that pre-season game.

 

Well, then my apology to Ray Allen for taking into consideration Kobe's bad performance in the Finals...but let's not forget a few things that Ray should keep in mind:

Ray has never been there.

Kobe wasn't to blame, and neither was Shaq. Kobe couldn't get the ball to Shaq because of the passing lane being clogged by Sheed and Big Ben, and the double team by Rip and Prince. If George and Payton would've played better off the ball, Kobe could've passed it to them...but since neither of them moved towards Kobe for the help, he had to jack up shots. If Ray Allen don't know...then he shouldn't talk...he's got more competent players than Kobe did last year, like Murray and Lewis, that would hop on the chance to help out a doubled Ray Allen.

 

Rashard Lewis and Murray were two very inconsistant players for Seattle, you can't expect a player to lead a team with no real point guard, no power forward or center in the western conference. If only Ray could go to a team that has a big man to help him out. Then his value would rise even further. Kobe was lucky enough to play with Shaq for 8 seasons, not many players get that kind of chance. At least this year Kobe does have some good players around him, Ray on the other hand for at least one year is stuck on a team that will rely on shooting the three ball very well to be successful. Until he plays on a team that has a dominant big man we will never truely know how good he can be.

Anyways, back to your game thread instead of one on one match-ups.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Jurassic:</div><div class="quote_post">Homey, you are helping prove the point that Ray Allen made.

Kobe can score 100 points, but if they lose it proves that he can't lead a team. Ray scored 10 less points, but his team won the game. Allen Iverson can outscore a lot of people, but the media is constantly questioning his leadership right? Same with Tmac, even though he was 1st in scoring last year. Did Tmac prove leadership last year?

I have heard Tmac say that he would rather score 5 points and win than score 50 and lose. I have heard other big players make similar statements. I have never heard anything of the like come out of Kobe's mouth. Besides, if you look at the rosters, there is no reason that the Lakers shouldn't be handling the Sonics with ease, especially while Shard is not playing.

Outplaying someone individully doesn't get you any credit unless you are playing at Rucker.</div>

There is a lot more to basketball then names on a roster. Chemistry is a big part of that. And as for Kobe getting so many minutes he has to. We all know that he will be on the court 90% of the game so he has to get used to the totally revamped laker roster and playing. Remember not only has the roster changed but also the lakers whole style of offense play. Now when all of that happens your players especially your superstar is gonna need time to adjust and what better way to do that then in the pre season. Now about Kobe's D I think we will all agree the boi has some mad D. There is evidence of that by looking at how many times he's been on the all defensive teams or even looking at the finals last year. Put kobe on hamilton he dosen't score much billups goes off and gets mvp. The boi was running through all kinds of picks chasing hamilton. And remember before the finals came thats all people were talking about how good hamilton was doing and his reggige like playstyle. All he needs to do is give the effort on a nightly basis.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread but I felt a need to say something. But one last thing I wanted to say in closing. I think someone spoke about about <u>Kobe groupies</u>. Well let me tell you the reason for that. Not only is he an explosive player but he is one of the most determined and fierce NBA competitors I've seen. Almost every game some analyst is talking about his competetive attitude and I have never heard people use the word competetive with a nba players name as much as they do with kobe, with the exception of MJ(Not making any comparisons just stating fact)

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">No...Ray Allen was criticizing Kobe for taking too many shots in the game, but Allen took more attempts in less minutes, and shot worse from the three also. That's my point. If you don't do better than the guy you plan to bash, then you don't comment.</div>

Kobe, Shaq, and Phil made plently of comments during the finals.

Seriously though, you are acting like 45% overall and 44% from the field is crappy. That's an amazing game. While he didn't have a better game than Kobe, he did LEAD his team, and got the W. Kobe led his team, but didn't get a positive result.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He didn't criticize the Lakers...he criticized Kobe. A single person, a single performance. I don't care if he was talking about leading the team to a win...because Ray Allen wasn't the only player who contributed to that win anyways.</div>

Where have you been man? The star always gets the criticism and praise.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Fact is, Kobe was the only one out there playing offensively (and possibly Slava). It wasn't going to be a complete "team unity" for the Lakers, since it was their first ever game together, so obviously, Kobe had to pick up the slack. Ray Allen had NO excuse...Lewis and Daniels were playing a great game. Simple as that.</div>

You are a really smart guy and have proven it through your posts, but right now you are talking out of you rear man. Anytime that you are running with a new point guard it is going to be hard. Especially when Brent's being a three point threat freed up Ray in the past. Daniels/Ridnour aren't the vocal leader type either.

I understand what you are saying about the Lakers. I think it's hilarious how after all these years of wanting his own team, now he has one, and when he loses you guys sit here and make excuses for him. This is what he wanted. Now people are saying crap about how he was the only one playing offensively, or how it's a new team. Either admit that Kobe is not capable of leading a team, or keep your mouths shut.

This is not directed just at real either.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I should criticize Ray Allen for taking too many shots and only throwing 5 assists in the 38 minutes he was playing, right? Kobe had 3 assists, even with the poor shooting by everyone else on the team.
</div>

I should just ignore that comment. Are you serious? There are a lot of starting point guards that barely get 5 assists per game. Here you go with more excuses, about Kobe's assists. Please.

 

Ok i read all the posts and i came to the same conclusion Kobe did.

Well settle it on the court Tonight

 

Jurassic, you're missing my point. You just said that Ray Allen doesn't have the support from his teammates like I believe (saying that Brent freed up Allen for shots, etc.). Well, Kobe hasn't played a single regular season game with Mihm, Divac, Odom, Butler, Atkins, Vujacic, Brown, Bobbitt, Grant...pretty much his entire team...so people need to give him some respect because the Lakers aren't out there dying.

Kobe is obviously going to have to play more minutes, because the whole starting five and half of the bench aren't familiar with his game. They've never shared the ball with him before, and vice versa.

As for making excuses, there's always a reason for losing. When your point guard can't pass and shoots badly, and the guy that's supposed to be the second option can't even score and shoots 28% in the preseason, then that's enough excuses already. Kobe is out running the show, and the Lakers turn out to be at 4-2 as we speak.

The fact is, there's no reason behind anyone bashing Kobe and saying that he can't do it...because he hasn't had the chance yet. Too many guys, including Ray Allen and Shaq, are saying that his selfishness is going to lose him games. Well, it's all based on the Finals last year, and it wasn't even Kobe's fault that they lost. Give the guy a chance, a few years...like what was given to McGrady and Iverson...and then you can toss all the mud you want on him if he fails.

Until then, those who say that Kobe is not capable of leading the Lakers are the true ignorant ones.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I understand what you are saying about the Lakers.
I think it's hilarious how after all these years of wanting his own team, now he has one, and when he loses you guys sit here and make excuses for him. This is what he wanted.
</div>

Making excuses? how? He merely said that Kobe had 3 assists on a bad shooting night by the rest of the Lakers. The Lakers lost in a pre-season game, whoop-de-do. Let's cast off Kobe automatically as a player who is "spoiled" because he wanted to be recognized as anything other then a lazy center's sidekick.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Now people are saying crap about how he was the only one playing offensively, or how it's a new team. Either admit that Kobe is not capable of leading a team, or keep your mouths shut.
</div>

It IS a new team, that's a fact. And one pre-season game shouldn't be an indication of a whole season, win or lose because I assure you the regular season will be much different for every single team that's playing right now.

If, like AllNet stated, Ray Allen indeed was making the "selfish" comments based on last year's Finals then he was correct, Kobe was extremely selfish. But I still stand by my position that Ray Allen is in no position to critisize other players when he himself is weaker in many aspects then Kobe.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Well, it's all based on the Finals last year, and it wasn't even Kobe's fault that they lost. Give the guy a chance, a few years...like what was given to McGrady and Iverson...and then you can toss all the mud you want on him if he fails.

Until then, those who say that Kobe is not capable of leading the Lakers are the true ignorant ones
</div>

Couldn't agree more. There are ENOUGH people on this site that act that, beyond rationalization to despise and knock Kobe at any cost. But I could also say the same for many Kobe fans who need to rationalize a little but more and make some more fair comments instead of claiming that Kobe "schooled" Ray with that one block. Fact is that Ray lead his team to the win, that's what ultimately matters but once again, Ray is in no position to critisize others.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting spawn:</div><div class="quote_post">Couldn't agree more. There are ENOUGH people on this site that act that, beyond rationalization to despise and knock Kobe at any cost. But I could also say the same for many Kobe fans who need to rationalize a little but more and make some more fair comments instead of claiming that Kobe "schooled" Ray with that one block. Fact is that Ray lead his team to the win, that's what ultimately matters but once again, Ray is in no position to critisize others.</div>

Ok can someone prove to me how ray allen leads his team to a win?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Pre-season teams should have enough players and camp invites to fill out the roster for each game and not force stats to play big minutes. Allen should play between 20-25 a game tops. Anymore is just risking injury. And for a guy who has had problems last year playing all 82 games..there's no point in potenially missing any games. Same goes for Kobe.



I was talking about all the fans who go overboard just because Kobe makes one nice play they consider that been schooled. Obviously that point wasn't directed at you. I would hope you are too smart to consider one block being "schooled" those people who do are called groupies.



I somehow doubt Ray was just talking about that one pre-season game when he stated the words "selfish" It's more to do with Kobe over the course of a season. Mainly last year where he hogged his way to 38% shooting in the finals



Again, his comments to me was more directed at the season ahead more than that pre-season game.</div>

I think Allen is resentful that Kobe and him got into the NBA at the same time except Kobe came out of highschool and they both play the same position and Kobe has more respect, more rings, and a better organization to play on then him. I mean if I was in Allen position I would be pissed too. If Kobe went to college who knows maybe Allen would have been picked by the Grizzlies and gone to the Lakers and he could have 3 rings. You know.

Seriously tho, Kobe is better than Allen, for saying Kobe is playing to many minutes he and his team needs it to build up, I would be distguisted to hear Kobe is barely playing with his new team, if he wasn't playing as much as he is now you all would be critizing him for being a bad team leader and not playing these minutes, it's pathetic what you Kobe haters grasp on to, to pull Kobe down when obviously he is doing what is best for his team.

Oh yah hope you didn't take offense to any of this, my views and voice is garentee'd by being apart of JustBBall because I am a member which is a part of these forums.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are a really smart guy and have proven it through your posts, but right now you are talking out of you rear man. Anytime that you are running with a new point guard it is going to be hard. Especially when Brent's being a three point threat freed up Ray in the past. Daniels/Ridnour aren't the vocal leader type either.

I understand what you are saying about the Lakers. I think it's hilarious how after all these years of wanting his own team, now he has one, and when he loses you guys sit here and make excuses for him. This is what he wanted. Now people are saying crap about how he was the only one playing offensively, or how it's a new team. Either admit that Kobe is not capable of leading a team, or keep your mouths shut.

This is not directed just at real either.</div>

So the laker's are not in the same position with a new pg? We have 4 new pg's and all of them are mediocre.

Also about what you find hilarious. The season hasn't started, what are you talking about? Ya pre-season has happened, they just beat last night the undefeated Suns and kobe only scored 12 points, wait what was that, The Lakers won with kobe not scoring over twenty. its a miracle, we must have found other players that can score and they won. Wow our excusing like the team winning with Kobe not beign the top scorer really must be funny.

Ray Allen fans, stop defending a man who has a mouth bigger than his game.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Billa_Bong:</div><div class="quote_post">
Also about what you find hilarious. The season hasn't started, what are you talking about? Ya pre-season has happened, they just beat last night the undefeated Suns and kobe only scored 12 points, wait what was that, The Lakers won with kobe not scoring over twenty. its a miracle, we must have found other players that can score and they won. Wow our excusing like the team winning with Kobe not beign the top scorer really must be funny.

Ray Allen fans, stop defending a man who has a mouth bigger than his game.</div>

Your sarcastic contradiction asuses me. On one hand you are critisizing those Ray Allen fans for not taking into account that it is merely the preseason, and on the other hand you are hooraying the fact that the Lakers won with little contribution from Kobe. Stick to scenario 1. It IS only the preseason.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Spree:</div><div class="quote_post">Your sarcastic contradiction asuses me. On one hand you are critisizing those Ray Allen fans for not taking into account that it is merely the preseason, and on the other hand you are hooraying the fact that the Lakers won with little contribution from Kobe. Stick to scenario 1. It IS only the preseason.</div>

I know, I did that on purpose. I wanted him to say it is only pre-season to prove my point further.

 

Ray's not playing, he's got a sore back


all that , and we don't get to see the matchup yet

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Ray's not playing, he's got a sore back


all that , and we don't get to see the matchup yet</div>

Dang, I wanted to add another animation of kobe to this new sig!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Billa_Bong:</div><div class="quote_post">I know, I did that on purpose. I wanted him to say it is only pre-season to prove my point further.</div>

To further prove your point (in an open minded manner), next time don't make your double standard for Kobe so obvious.. like so many Kobe fans do.

Also, a message to Kobe fans. It would be great to see people priding themselves on thier Kobe fanaticism without downplaying the skill of rival nba players. In other words, it doesn't make Kobe look good when you continue attempting to make other players look bad.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Spree:</div><div class="quote_post">To further prove your point (in an open minded manner), next time don't make your double standard for Kobe so obvious.. like so many Kobe fans do.

Also, a message to Kobe fans. It would be great to see people priding themselves on thier Kobe fanaticism without downplaying the skill of rival nba players. In other words, it doesn't make Kobe look good when you continue attempting to make other players look bad.</div>

Shut up man Kobe could take down Sprewell anyday!

Was that good enuf for the average fan?

I think the reason we do this is that is because Kobe is probably one of the most criticized player in the Nba and nobody gives him a chance, i mean they just jump on things right away so I know i feel people need to chill about it and thats kind of why I rank on there player u kno haha

 

The best players and the biggest stars are always the most Critisized. Barkley, Rodman, I. Thomas, etc... But hey, I love it! On a side not Spree, I dont like the double standard that some fans do make, so I feel ya on that.