Some early statistical observations!

So far there have been some players that are doing like they are supposed to be doing, and others that are not. Some of these players are ripping it up, others are taking it easy. Imma break it down.

Notables At a below star level:
Jermaine Oneal : 2 games 17ppg 7 rpg 0.5 bpg - mainly due to injuries but he will go back to an allstar level soon.

Steve Nash: 3 games 13ppg 5 rpg 7apg - although rebounds are high, the assists are not quite there yet.

Steve Francis: 3 games 18ppg 8 rpg 4 apg - after two spectacular games, a very poor effort against the bobcats, and wheres the assists?

Zach Randholph - 2 games 14ppg 12rpg- What happened to the most improved player?

Pau Gasol- 3 games 19ppg 6 rpg and 3 losses- Is this guy really a franchise player, cuz Stromile Swift is as productive off the bench.

Shaq- 3 games 15 ppg 7 rpg 2 bpg - Come on diesel its supposed to be your revenge year, we want to see 30 and 15.

Yao Ming- 4 games 14ppg 9 rpg- He just hasn't gelled yet, but the last game against the kings showed some hope.

Peja- 3 games 16ppg and barely nothing plus 3 losses- What happened to the second leading scorer?

Marbury- 2 games 20ppg 8 apg and nothin else plus 2 losses. This guy needs to make his teammates better in order to get some wins.

Carter- 2 games 14ppg 6rpg 6apg 2 wins- It seems like this guy doesn't want to score, not a good sign for fantasy owners.

T-mac 4 games 23ppg 6rpg 5apg - Come on "teammac" step it up.

Rising Stars: (Players who have taken it to the next level or two)
KG: 3 games 27 ppg 17rpg 6apg 3bpg - I thought we saw him max out last year, this guy is taking it to a whole new level.

Chris Bosh: 2 games 19ppg 8rpg 3 apg 1bpg- He is becoming a co-franchise player.

Richard Jefferson: 3 games 23 ppg 11rpg 6apg - This guy is awesome. Hopefully he keeps it up. And i didn't know he could get 21 boards.

Artest: 3 games 24ppg 7 rpg - Not only the best perimeter defender, he now wants to show that he is the man in Indiana on both ends of the floor.

Baron Davis: 3 games 27ppg 4rpg 9apg 2spg - he started off amazing last year too, hopefullt he can lead in assists or something.

Amare: 3 games 25 ppg 9rpg 2 bpg - No doubt this guy is an allstar.

Lebron James: 3 games 27ppg 6rpg 7apg 2spg 1bpg- Who said he wasn't gonna raise it up this year. But he thinks he can do more.

Pierce: 3 games 26ppg 9rpg 8 apg 2 spg- This line would be more impressive if he never got shut down by artest.

Antwan Jamison: 3 games 27ppg 8rpg - Who got the better of the Carter/ Jamison trade?

Dwayne Wade: 3 games 29ppg 6rpg 8apg 2spg 1bpg- No one raised their game more than D.Wade-maybe Shaq has something to do with it.

Ak47: 3 games 7 bpg - Thats just mad. 7 bpg for 3 games. But he can do more in other categories.

Boozer: 3 games 24ppg 12rpg 3apg- Those numbers are similar to duncan's. This guy is a beast.

Walker: 2 games 23ppg 11rpg- The best loser in the game?

The usuals (Players who are doing as expected or close)
carmelo : 20 ppg 9rpg - could pass the ball more.
AI: 29ppg 7apg 2spg- I knew he would come out strong
Too lazy to add others so ill just name it
Kobe, Dirk, Rip, Gilbert, Cwebb, Big Ben, Duncan, Ray Allen

 

Yea it's good, but the problem is that it's only 2-3 games into the season, many guys stats will be greatly affected by one really good game, or one really bad game. Now after 15-20 games are played, then I'd put more merit into it, but some player have come out very strong.

 

You're already observing individual statistics during 2-3 games into the season

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Antwan Jamison: 3 games 27ppg 8rpg - Who got the better of the Carter/ Jamison trade?</div>

Toronto. Don't even get me started!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Streetball2k3:</div><div class="quote_post">Toronto. Don't even get me started!</div>

I know, this guy is a joker. That's THE quote of the year.
For 6 years, Carter has proven that he was the better draft selection and player than Jamison. He was a proven failure in Golden State as he was degraded as a bench player as a Maverick. As a Wizard, everything's going to repeat like when he was a Warrior; good statistics/individual player, poor success aka no playoffs.

 

Ya it's kinda early to make predictions. A few things though are confusing me. The dominant centers Yao Ming and Shaq arn 't doing nearly as good as expected. Shaq is really helping the heat still just by being......... well Shaq. His stats arnt great but the double and triple teams he brings gives open men up. This is why Dwyane Wade has been affected so much. Dwyane is benefiting off of Shaq even more than Kobe did. The hamstring injury Shaq has is clearly holding him back where he only is averaging about 26 MPG. Once he recovers I'm sure we can all expect some dominance.

 

About Shaq....I'm not sure if you realize this, but the guy is playing HURT. He's not healthy right now. Beyond that, he's also averaging under 30 mpg if I'm correct. So, before you go and criticize people, look at other elements. Also, look at DWades stats, the kid has been phenomenal. If he keeps playing this way, Shaq won't have to score. I have the same problem with you criticizing Pau. If he'd get more minutes, he'd be a lot more productive. However, under Hubie's system, he's got depth galore, and that prevents his starters from getting a load of minutes.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">I know, this guy is a joker. That's THE quote of the year.
For 6 years, Carter has proven that he was the better draft selection and player than Jamison. He was a proven failure in Golden State as he was degraded as a bench player as a Maverick. As a Wizard, everything's going to repeat like when he was a Warrior; good statistics/individual player, poor success aka no playoffs. </div>

Proven failure in Golden State huh? Did you ever look at his stats? Last I knew, when you averaged 20.6 ppg over 5 years in one place, you're pretty damn good. And he wasn't "degraded" to the bench. He was put there because they believed Walker was a better fit at the SF spot, but who knows what they were thinking. And beyond that, the man thrived off the bench. He went perfectly from starter to role player and ended up averaging over 14 ppg in 29 mpg. He was great as a bench player. You also have to look at all the offensive power that team had, which also assisted in his stats going down. And, the big reason he doesn't make playoffs is because he's never been surrounded by a good team. And it's funny, you're quick to criticize Jamison for this, but how dare you'd thrash your beloved Vince Carter for not doing this. How many times has he made it? Twice, something along those lines. And he's had a much better team over these past years than what Jamison had in Golden State. The funny thing is though, the last time they made the playoffs, the reason they did was because Carter got hurt. After that, they went on a 9 game win streak, if you don't recall that. So, stop criticizing players because someone takes a shot at your beloved Vince Carter. You overrate him far too much when he really hasn't done a whole hell of a lot in his career except miss the playoffs 5 times and be injured for a good part 2 seasons.

 

Wow, the guy who loves to instigate, not read posts carefully, and make up senseless posts (ie. Heat vs. Lakers thread) is here. I'm surprised that you're not a regular member.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Proven failure in Golden State huh? Did you ever look at his stats? Last I knew, when you averaged 20.6 ppg over 5 years in one place, you're pretty damn good. </div>
I'm not even going to reply to this at all.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
And he wasn't "degraded" to the bench. He was put there because they believed Walker was a better fit at the SF spot, but who knows what they were thinking. And beyond that, the man thrived off the bench. He went perfectly from starter to role player and ended up averaging over 14 ppg in 29 mpg. He was great as a bench player. You also have to look at all the offensive power that team had, which also assisted in his stats going down.</div>

Actually, that IS degrading. By the way, your position and status on this board should be degraded.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
And, the big reason he doesn't make playoffs is because he's never been surrounded by a good team. And it's funny, you're quick to criticize Jamison for this, but how dare you'd thrash your beloved Vince Carter for not doing this. How many times has he made it? Twice, something along those lines. And he's had a much better team over these past years than what Jamison had in Golden State. The funny thing is though, the last time they made the playoffs, the reason they did was because Carter got hurt. After that, they went on a 9 game win streak, if you don't recall that. </div>
Tell me why you keep making references to how I love Vince so therefore, I'm automatically going to stick up for him against Jamison? Being a fan of him has nothing to do with this so I suggest that you stop using that stupid logic. This is not even a debate; it's not Vince versus Pierce. Heck, every non-fans of Vince except for you would say Vince is superior to Jamison. Does it matter if the '02 Raptors made the playoffs without Vince considering they could of easily eliminated the Pistons if Vince was playing in the playoffs? You're implying that Jamison, who has barely missed games in his career, couldn't even get the Warriors into the playoffs when that team was better than the Vince-less Raptors. Don't even start with the "West was tough" logic.
It's funny how you're defending Jamison when you got NO LOGIC OR PROOF on how Jamison is superior to Vince.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
So, stop criticizing players because someone takes a shot at your beloved Vince Carter. </div>
No, junior. Simply being a fan of Vince isn't the reason. The reason is the thread-starter questioning who got the better end of the Vince/Jamison trade on draft day, which is ridiculous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
You overrate him far too much when he really hasn't done a whole hell of a lot in his career except miss the playoffs 5 times and be injured for a good part 2 seasons.</div>

So what in the bloody hell is your point? Are you saying that Jamison is superior to Vince???

By the way, he missed it 4 times. Go and research before blathering anything.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">
I'm not even going to reply to this at all. </div>

why not? it was a pretty good point. the team may not have had success...but antawn certainly did

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Actually, that IS degrading. By the way, your position and status on this board should be degraded. </div>

antawn would start on most teams. nellie decided to use him as a 6th man. and antawn turned out to be the best in the league at that position, and never once complained about minutes or touches. id say there is nothing degrating about that at all. only to ego-maniacle players who cant handle not being known as a "starter".


i do however agree that toronto got the better end of the deal, and that vince is a superior player to antawn.

i also think its WAAAAAAAAAAAY too early in the season to be making any kind of statement about how individual stats are going. some players are shooting 100% from behind the arc...so is it safe to say they wont be missing a shot for the rest of the season? of course not.

 

Ok, so sue me for saying he missed it 5 times, I was neglecting the fact that I accidentally looked at the fact that this season had just began, so it was it was an acciedental thing. So lay off for that, anyone could make that mistake.

Firstly, there is a reason why I'm a mod and you're not. So don't even go there. And quite frankly, I never said a damn thing about Vince being superior or Jamison being superior, not once did that ever come out of me. And quite frankly, I did do my homework when I was making this argument. And actually, I was using logic when defending Jamison. You have no logic on why Carter is so good. I have yet to hear any in this argument at least. All you did in reply of my post was try to degrade me and mock my position. Like I said, I've proven time and time again in my posting why I'm a mod, so I'm not going there. I'm not into the whole degrading thing, so therefore, I won't. But, anyways, beyond all that. To me, Vince has not proven much of anything, outside of that he isn't a good leader and I wouldn't build a franchise around him. He's been oft-injured, as last year was the first time he was healthy in 3 years. He has only made the playoffs once, even when healthy. The team did better a couple years back when he got injured and Mo Pete led that team. As for them getting out of the first round that year if Carter was healthy, I have no clue as to what would have happened. All you can do is speculate what could have happened, and no matter how much you do so, it won't change the fact that they lost. So, I'm not going to delve into any of that at all. But, anyways, I'm not going to argue anymore. It won't do me any good and it won't do any good in general.

 

I think its safe to say, thus far, that Toronto got the better end of the Carter-Jamison trade. Jamison has put up some nice numbers for really bad teams, and he's obviously a very talented offensive player, but I think Carter does more for his team. A few games to start a season really doesn't prove much on this issue.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">O
He's been oft-injured, as last year was the first time he was healthy in 3 years. </div>

2 yrs of injuries in a 7 year career is "oft-injured" ??

i guess he did miss 9 games last year...but thats not much really. if he plays in more then 75 games this year, id say its safe to say that his injuries are behind him wouldnt you? i mean...how long is the injury label going to follow him around for? how much does he have to play to prove that he's not an injury prone player? is this the season he's supposed to do that? i kinda thought last season was. guess we'll just have to wait and see

 

The real debate is who got the better of the trade, Golden state or Toronto. If you think GS got the advantage out of that trade then please......please..... state some real facts why.

Okay what makes you think Golden state won the Jamison/Carter trade when they traded Antawns ass after 4 years? Add to the fact that Toronto got GS to give us cash along with Carter in that trade and you are looking at a non-arguement. How can you even argue that GS got the better of the Carter trade? He doesn't even play there anymore. Horrible debate.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">I know, this guy is a joker. That's THE quote of the year.
For 6 years, Carter has proven that he was the better draft selection and player than Jamison. He was a proven failure in Golden State as he was degraded as a bench player as a Maverick. As a Wizard, everything's going to repeat like when he was a Warrior; good statistics/individual player, poor success aka no playoffs. </div>
Why won't the Wizards make the playoffs?

Also I don't think him playing off the bench would be considered being degraded, that Mavs are real deep, and he was a major contributor off the bench, just that they though Antoine would fit the running style better with his ball handling ability, guess not.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "Moo2K4":</div><div class="quote_post">And it's funny, you're quick to criticize Jamison for this, but how dare you'd thrash your beloved Vince Carter for not doing this. How many times has he made it? Twice, something along those lines. And he's had a much better team over these past years than what Jamison had in Golden State. </div>
I don't know about that part, Golden State has been much more talented than the Raptors in terms of individual players, Arenas-Jamison-J-Rich-Dunleavy-Murphy-Dampier-Foyle-Boykins is much better than many of the lineups the Raptors have had, but that won 38 games that year, so they were decent

Also Arenas [Rookie]-Hughes-J-Rich-Jamison-Dampier-Sura-Forston-Foyle is also a lot better than what the Raptors had in 01-02. [The team won 21 games]

Compare the rosters and you'll see, Vince-MoPete-AD-JYD-Alvin and Voshon Lenard isn't nearly as talented as that GS 02-03 lineup.

...and Vince-AD-Keon-MoPete-Alvin-JYD and Hakeeem was okay that year still aren't as talented as the 01-02 lineup of the Warriors. The other years was all these guys except add Charles Oakley, and the Warriors also weren't as good, both teams were about the same.

Now on 99-00, when the Raptors had Tmac and Doug Christie etc, they had a better team than the Warriors, but apart from that, not really.


The Warriors talent wasn't horrible especially conpared to the Raptors, when the Raptors went the farthest they have in the playoffs, their lineup wasn't that nice, but the Warriors won 19-17-21, and then with Arenas and all those guys, 38 games, that's not too impressive to say the least. In their rookie year, Jamison didn't play much, so I didn't include that year.

The Raptors won 45-47-42 and 25 games in comparison, and made the playoffs all those years but one, so yea, not too good on Antawn's side of things.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">2 yrs of injuries in a 7 year career is "oft-injured" ??

i guess he did miss 9 games last year...but thats not much really. if he plays in more then 75 games this year, id say its safe to say that his injuries are behind him wouldnt you? i mean...how long is the injury label going to follow him around for? how much does he have to play to prove that he's not an injury prone player? is this the season he's supposed to do that? i kinda thought last season was. guess we'll just have to wait and see</div>

The reason Carter is perceived as an injured player, even last year, is because he plays much less aggressively now. He might have been healthy last year, but he played like a guy who was afraid of aggravating an injury.

 

Thats so true. I have to be the biggest carter optomist, but his paranoia of injuries is just killing his stats. He still hits the buckets when it counts. And today he got his first 20+ game of the year. Hopefully we see a dunk sooner than later.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
The team did better a couple years back when he got injured and Mo Pete led that team. As for them getting out of the first round that year if Carter was healthy, I have no clue as to what would have happened. All you can do is speculate what could have happened, and no matter how much you do so, it won't change the fact that they lost. So, I'm not going to delve into any of that at all. But, anyways, I'm not going to argue anymore. It won't do me any good and it won't do any good in general.
</div>

What? When has Mo-Pete of all people led the Raptors? In the 2001-2002 playoff-run season, Antonio Davis was the man when the Raptors started sliding after the All-Star break and VC was injured.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
You overrate him far too much when he really hasn't done a whole hell of a lot in his career except miss the playoffs 5 times and be injured for a good part 2 seasons.
</div>

Saying Carter "hasn't done a whole lot" in his career is pretty much underrating him. I don't think you know all too much about Carter's game and just base it on speculation and people saying he's weak and whatnot. If you recall in the 2001-2002 season, the Raptors were 4th or so when the All-Star gamne hit and Vince got injured. After that, the went on a 13 game losing streak and lost Vince in the process. Had it not been for Vince playing well before the injury, they wouldn't have been in that position anyways.

Carter has done more in his career then Antawn. Period.
You say what has Carter done, What has Jamison done?
He won sixth man of the year but I'm pretty sure if you had put Vince on the bench of the Dallas Mavericks Vince would have won it as well.
Jamison has never LED his team to a playoff spot so let's not even talk playoffs.
You can say all you want about "Jamison had worse teammates then Carter" but I'll use your tactic and say that "it doesn't change the fact" that Jamison hasn't led a team to the playoffs so it won't make a difference.

And if the 2002 Raptors could take the Pistons to the elimination game of the first round WITHOUT Carter, I'm pretty sure they would have won it WITH Carter. But, once again, just like you said, we never know right.

Fact is, Jamison was supposedly the franchise player in G-State and he never proved jack. You can make the case and say that the West is loaded but whatever. He didn't do anything. So before you bash Vince and say he "hasn't done anything in his career", look at what Jamison has done.

Toronto got the better end of the draft day trade. I'm sure the majority of people would agree.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting arhieboy:</div><div class="quote_post">Thats so true. I have to be the biggest carter optomist, but his paranoia of injuries is just killing his stats. He still hits the buckets when it counts. And today he got his first 20+ game of the year. Hopefully we see a dunk sooner than later.</div>


22pts, 5 rebs and 5 apg??? those are "killed" stats? because that was his line from last season

there are so many players who play the 2/3 spot and jack up TONS of shots a game, but for some reason, vince seems to take the most heat for it. carmello, t-mac, michael redd, pierce...they all take a TON of jump shots a game. nobody ever mentions their name as players who shoot too much? the do drive. so does vince. vince drives. i saw him drive quite a few times in the passed few games. he SHOULD drive every play...so should t-mac