Tim Thomas/Trevor Ariza debate (Split Thread - Sixers game)

Tim Thomas is inconsistent anybody that watch him in Mil-town with the big 3 or in NY can easily tell that, so it really isnt up for debate or question. The point is, you shouldnt take Ariza out of his comfort zone at 19 year-old, just because the knicks are unhappy with their production with the starting Small Forward spot.

New York isnt an easy place to play, you dont just want to throw the kid in the fire like that. There is a reason why the Knicks have hardly ever played any young rookies since I have been alive. In the past 20 years, I think, I can honestly count on one hand how many rookies, have played a signifigant role & minutes on this team during their rookie seasons with the Knicks. Patrick Ewing, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland and Gerald Wilkens and thats about it. The Knicks dont usally ever play rookies. So to just push this kid into the spotlight & pressure of the Garden, the New York media, & the expectation fans will have of him as a starter is just too much, imo. If you rush his developement you could ruin him.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Tim Thomas did have a horrible game but the way Mohammed and Kurt Thomas were rebounding he didn't really need to. Ariza is not strong enough at 200 pounds (although he is less) to play other starting SF. He needs to hit the weight room :weightroo . The Knicks played Wally, Pierce and will play Maggette. Wally and Pierce would have killed Ariza and Maggete will kill Ariza on the physical end. If TT is half as bad as you guys say he is he won't be able to provide a needed spark off the bench like Ariza. Ariza wakes us up and makes us run. He is valuable to us just not starting. No disrespect to his game but he's not ready to start yet.</div>

To say TT had a horrible game is sugarcoating it. He's had three games that would cause some players making the amount of money he's making to hang themselves. If Houston dared played the way TT's been playing the whole of Madison Square Garden would storm the court and hang him themselves. Just because Nazr and Kurt were rebounding that gives him the green light to suck? Yes I said it. He sucks. Well he doesnt need the green light to suck it seems. It just comes naturally to him. Wally would no way shape or form destroy Ariza. "Pierce would have killed Ariza..." yeah and TT did such a great job on Paul didnt he? I've never seen Pierce got locked down like TT did it. It was truly a sight to see. Ariza is a superior defender than TT. The only thing you or anyone else has said backing TT that really makes sense is that Ariza might not be the same player starting as when he comes off the bench. On the flip side if he can do all the stuff he does coming off the bench...imagine what he could do with more minutes. He'll probably be three times the player TT is(I wanted to say twice but he's already twice the player TT is). We would be losing a player that brings spark off the bench if Ariza starts true I'll give you that. TT doesnt deserve to come off the bench and I mean that with as much disrespect to his game as possible.

Ariza has to look down at the ball when dribbling??? First off, I find that hard to believe. He is in the NBA afterall. Young players are coming into the league with less and less fundamentals but still looking at the ball when dribbing is just plain ludicrous. He still did play college basketball afterall. I'm sure he can dribble without looking at the ball. Secondly, who really cares if he has to look down at the ball??? I know I dont. As long as he puts up those same numbers he can look down at the ball all he wants. If looking down at the ball can make someone play that well...I say TT should start doing the same. That way we'll at least get 10 ppg from him and a couple of rebounds. Who says a rookie has to be a Dwayne Wade or Lebron to start. Those guys are stars on their teams. He's playing a much smaller role.

Henacy Van Horn was inconsistent, Crawford is inconsistent, Eddie Curry is inconsistent. TT moved past inconsistent a long time ago. Been past inconsistent. He's moved beyond inconsistent to downright overpaid, wait no, ridiculously overpaid garbage. We arent unhappy with our production from the small forward position. Quite frankly were disgusted with it. There! It's all out there now. We're sick of TT. Before it was Shandon Anderson now it's TT. We always seem to have have not just one overpaid player but a amazingly overpaid player who just plain sucks. At least Anderson played defense. You knew you were going to get that much at least.
I understand what your saying about not rushing him just because TT is trash. Fine I say. We dont have to start Ariza. Start Penny Hardaway. He's a better defender than TT as well(who isnt?). Knows his role and has a great deal of experience. Can shoot better. All that good stuff. Either way whether its Ariza or Penny someone has to take over the starting small forward position from TT. So that we may banish TT to the very end of the bench. It doesnt matter who. As long as I dont see TT being introduced in the starting line up when I turn on my TV I'll be fine as will all my other fellow Knick fans around the world.

 

^ <u>Outstanding post, </u>
*Except KVH was 'more consistent' than those you mentioned.

With the excpetion of that, you took the words right out of my mouth!

 

TT did have a bad games but the fact of the matter is he still is the best suited to start at the SF. Ariza is just a rookie and starting him against Pierce would have been worse than TT just cause of his lack of strength. PP and Wally are 30 and 44 pounds more than him. Penny does have that hamstring thing so he probably isn't in good condition to start. TT is inconsistant, has poor work ethic, and way overpaid but the fact of the matter is at our current SF state no one is a better candidate to start.

 

mrj18-

You mention weight and all of that, but does TT utilize his weight?! NO! He never cuts to the hoop, never really drives, and when he does drive it's an offensive foul! He plays NO defense, and has lost his outside and mid-range J. He has no courtvision whatsoever. He never gets assists, that's right, if he has the ball, and he passes, it's never to a player with a better shot then him. He has no intensity and plays with 0 heart. Not to mention the fact that his work ethic, or lack therof is sickening.

Ariza is undoubtably a great defender. Ariza goes strong to the hoop and is really developing a jump shot. He is going to be a threat from outside by the end of the first half of the season. I understand the rookie mistake factor, but in 20 minutes last game he had NO turnovers, while in 25 mintues TT had a few. Ariza has great court-sense. His passes are creative and effective, while TT's are flat or non-existant. Ariza has twice as many moves with the ball than TT does. TT always slaps at the ball when driving, and when backing up he leans over with his right shoulder and dribbles with his left hand. His left hand dribbles a vulnerable ball which is often tipped away. Wheras Ariza dribbles swiftly and makes less violent motions.

In addition, Ariza follows the plays and times his moves perfectly. The whole team has more energy when he steps on the court. When TT steps on the court, its as if all the energy built up is extracted and disposed of until Ariza re-kindles the flame. Ariza provides fans with exciting dunks and crossovers, thus bringing the crowd into the game, an important thing in New York. TT, however, desperately hoists a three and misses, silencing an important New York crowd.

There is <u>much </u> more to the subject, but I want to save some material for my article.

 

All that is true about TT is true but Ariza starting will just be a problem. He is a 19 year old rookie playing in NYC. New York is without a doubt the hardest place to play due to expectations. Him starting will give SF's an easy time in the post. TT has played decent defense thus far. His offensive game has just not been going for him. I think you get the impression that I am a TT fan or something. I really don't like him all that much and admitted he was not an exceptional player. Ariza's had some great games so far and is valuable to us off the bench. TT can't provide that spark off the bench can he? We can't lose that. Jamison could have easily started last year in Dallas but Nelson saw that he was valuable off the bench as well. Ginobili was a 6th man for the same reason.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">
Henacy Van Horn was inconsistent, Crawford is inconsistent, Eddie Curry is inconsistent. TT moved past inconsistent a long time ago. Been past inconsistent. He's moved beyond inconsistent to downright overpaid, wait no, ridiculously overpaid garbage. We arent unhappy with our production from the small forward position. Quite frankly were disgusted with it. There! It's all out there now. We're sick of TT. Before it was Shandon Anderson now it's TT. We always seem to have have not just one overpaid player but a amazingly overpaid player who just plain sucks. At least Anderson played defense. You knew you were going to get that much at least.
I understand what your saying about not rushing him just because TT is trash. Fine I say. We dont have to start Ariza. Start Penny Hardaway. He's a better defender than TT as well(who isnt?). Knows his role and has a great deal of experience. Can shoot better. All that good stuff. Either way whether its Ariza or Penny someone has to take over the starting small forward position from TT. So that we may banish TT to the very end of the bench. It doesnt matter who. As long as I dont see TT being introduced in the starting line up when I turn on my TV I'll be fine as will all my other fellow Knick fans around the world.</div>

And with that being said Tim Thomas will still average about 12 or 13ppg by the end of the season. This is exactly how he has been his entire career, the Knicks knew thats what they were getting when they traded for him, last year. Anyway Iam not debating the point that Tim Thomas is subpar, If the Knicks decide to go the Penny route then I think thats much better then rushing Ariza.

BTW, Van Horn in the 2002 playoffs & finals vs LA, Van Horn in the playoffs last year with the Bucks, some would say if Tim Thomas has moved pass inconsistent, then so has Van Horn.

 

Some People are really starting to overrate Ariza. I understand hes having some good games but it honestly. When dribbling a basketball you have to know where your defender is so that he wont take the ball away from you. So if a player cant keep his head up while dribbling a defender could sneak in and steal the ball easy. Have you seen Ariza on a fast break where there is a defender in front of? He either passes it or tries to dunk over him straight up,thats because hes about to lose the dribble. I know some of you people have to have noticed that, didn't you? And as for straight dunking not every player guarding you will allow you to get that dunk. Lets see him get that dunk on Ben Wallace then I wont bring this up again. And alot of people say hes a great defender......no. Hes a good defender but not a great one there are many other small forwards in the league tha would destroy him on the offensive end, and thats now because of a weight or stregnth factor. So for people to say he should start thats crazy.
No lets just say he does start and the opposing team realizes his weakness, then what? They know hes not the greatest of shooters, not the best ball handler , and isnt gonna win a Lumber Jack contest any soon. Lets say he puts up 5/3/3 is he still as great as was off the bench? Or would you have Tim Thomas who would give you atleast 14/3/1 start while Ariza comes off the bench and gives you 9/5/2? Yeah thats what i thought too.

 

I think you might be right about that handling thing. In Minesota Walt Frazier said he was talking to Kurt Thomas about Ariza and Kurt Thomas said he needs to work on his dribbling. I need to see how he plays tommorow and if he looks down at the ball.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">All that is true about TT is true but Ariza starting will just be a problem. He is a 19 year old rookie playing in NYC. New York is without a doubt the hardest place to play due to expectations. Him starting will give SF's an easy time in the post. TT has played decent defense thus far. His offensive game has just not been going for him. I think you get the impression that I am a TT fan or something. I really don't like him all that much and admitted he was not an exceptional player. Ariza's had some great games so far and is valuable to us off the bench. TT can't provide that spark off the bench can he? We can't lose that. Jamison could have easily started last year in Dallas but Nelson saw that he was valuable off the bench as well. Ginobili was a 6th man for the same reason.</div>

It may be difficult to play in New York. But who says the kid doesn't have it in him?! So far he's shown that he HAS! TT hasn't had much of an oppurtunity to come off the bench, one can't tell if he could provide a spark! Perhaps his motivation to start will spur him to work hard in his minutes and then provide us with a spark!

Him starting gives 'opposing SF's an easy time in the post? '

And that wasn't the case with TT?

Do some research before making arguments, facts prove that Ariza is the better player, and so far he's more than dealt with the pressure of New York, but rather he's feasting off of it in the most positive way! His starting is ideal for New York at this moment, and soon Wilkens will come to see that.

It won't be long before Ariza is starting. Bank on it!

 

^He has dealt with the pressure well because no one was expecting much from him. There are alot of Knick fans that still dont even know how to say his name correctly, Ariza pretty much has come out of the blue for many Knick fans. But once you throw him into the starting lineup thats when the true NY pressure and expectations will come. Right now people look at what Ariza gives as a bonus, as a starter what he does will be demanded every night from many in the NY area. And thats a whole different type of pressure.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">It may be difficult to play in New York. But who says the kid doesn't have it in him?! So far he's shown that he HAS! TT hasn't had much of an oppurtunity to come off the bench, one can't tell if he could provide a spark! Perhaps his motivation to start will spur him to work hard in his minutes and then provide us with a spark!

Him starting gives 'opposing SF's an easy time in the post? '

And that wasn't the case with TT?

Do some research before making arguments, facts prove that Ariza is the better player, and so far he's more than dealt with the pressure of New York, but rather he's feasting off of it in the most positive way! His starting is ideal for New York at this moment, and soon Wilkens will come to see that.

It won't be long before Ariza is starting. Bank on it!</div>

If TT is as bad as you claim he is than it's pretty self expainitory that he won't provide a spark. TT has height and more muscle than Ariza. He also has been playing good defense so far. I surprisingly saw a couple of blocks the past few games. Ariza is not ready start.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">^He has dealt with the pressure well because no one was expecting much from him. There are alot of Knick fans that still dont even know how to say his name correctly, Ariza pretty much has come out of the blue for many Knick fanes. But once you throw him into the starting lineeup thats when the true NY pressure and expectations will come. Right now people look at what Ariza gives as a bonus, as a starter what he does will be demanded every night from many in the NY area. And thats a whole different type of pressure.</div>
Actually, with his recent popularity there was a load of pressure on Ariza during the Boston game. I was there, they were booing him ocassionally, and he came right back the next night and dealt with it. The presure of starting in New York is extreme, I know this. And very strong for a rookie, but still. It's worth a try, all we have is garbage at the 3 right now. The best thing to do would be to move Ariza to the starting role, and see how he permforms. If he performs poorly and appears intimidated, pull him. Put in TT and let's watch him screw it all up. Then we could move TT back to the 3, and then after a while, Ariza will grow out of his fear (as most do after a short time) and start.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">If TT is as bad as you claim he is than it's pretty self expainitory that he won't provide a spark. TT has height and more muscle than Ariza. He also has been playing good defense so far. I surprisingly saw a couple of blocks the past few games. Ariza is not ready start.</div>
I already said that the motivation to re-gain the starting role should serve as enough motivation for him to perform his very best thus providing us with a spark!

So, TT had a few blocks, if you watched the Boston game, you'd have seen that his defense was drek, and that he had to resort to pushing and pulling at Pierce to slow him down.

'Ariza is not ready start' - mrj18

^Again, no facts and no support. If you want to argue, bring out some stats and do some analysis.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, with his recent popularity there was a load of pressure on Ariza during the Boston game. I was there, they were booing him ocassionally, and he came right back the next night and dealt with it. The presure of starting in New York is extreme, I know this. And very strong for a rookie, but still. It's worth a try, all we have is garbage at the 3 right now. The best thing to do would be to move Ariza to the starting role, and see how he permforms. If he performs poorly and appears intimidated, pull him. Put in TT and let's watch him screw it all up. Then we could move TT back to the 3, and then after a while, Ariza will grow out of his fear (as most do after a short time) and start.</div>

Keyword is Recent, all this is new to him. As well as it is new to the fans of the Knicks. He popular right now, so they are going to boo him one night and cheer him the next but what happens when the New York fans get over the early infactuation with Ariza. And start demanding things of him as a starter, that he just isnt ready to produce. And then the consistent booing comes. And getting the Allan Houston treatment from the New York media. What then?

I think you take the better safe then sorry approach with Ariza. Maybe he is ready to the handle the pressure of being a NY starter. But most likely he isnt, so there is no need to take that type of risk imo. Like H20 said start Penny at the 3, if the Knicks are that unhappy with Tim Thomas' play.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Keyword is Recent, all this is new to him. As well as it is new to the fans of the Knicks. He popular right now, so they are going to boo him one night and cheer him the next but what happens when the New York fans get over the early infactuation with Ariza. And start demanding things of him as a starter, that he just isnt ready to produce. And then the consistent booing comes. And getting the Allan Houston treatment from the New York media. What then?

I think you take the better safe then sorry approach with Ariza. Maybe he is ready to the handle the pressure of being a NY starter. But most likely he isnt, so there is no need to take that type of risk imo. Like H20 said start Penny at the 3, if the Knicks are that unhappy with Tim Thomas' play.</div>
What makes you think that Ariza won't be able to produce? The kid's work ethic is enormous! His (apx.) 50% FT% at UCLA is no longer existant. he's really working on his free throws! I bought some tapes of Ariza at UCLA two days after the draft, and I watched his form on FTs and he's improved dramatically! Same goes for his rebounding techniques and his ball control, patience, endurance, shot accuracy, shot choices, and slashes to the hoop.

He may not be ready to start, we don't know. But he is certainly looking to be the better man for the job <u>right now</u>, isn't he?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">I already said that the motivation to re-gain the starting role should serve as enough motivation for him to perform his very best thus providing us with a spark!

So, TT had a few blocks, if you watched the Boston game, you'd have seen that his defense was drek, and that he had to resort to pushing and pulling at Pierce to slow him down.

'Ariza is not ready start' - mrj18

^Again, no facts and no support. If you want to argue, bring out some stats and do some analysis.</div>

You have already said or suggested that TT is a heartless scrub that can't be motivated. If TT is so bad why would that motivate him? Paul Pierce is a superstar not many players can stop Pierce not even Ariza. Also Ariza's inconsistant jumpshot and ballhandling is not starter quality.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">You have already said or suggested that TT is a heartless scrub that can't be motivated. If TT is so bad why would that motivate him? </div>
I never said that he can't be motivated. Everyone is fueled by something. And for a veteran to have a 2nd rd. pick rookie starting over them is pretty embarassing. That's enough motivation for anybody even....*GASP* - TIM THOMAS

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Paul Pierce is a superstar not many players can stop Pierce not even Ariza. Also Ariza's inconsistant jumpshot and ballhandling is not starter quality.</div>
Of course Pierce is a star, but not to the extent where one has to push and shove to stop him rather than play fair.

Ariza is working on his jumpshot. And TT's J isn't much nicer, in case you haven't been watching.

Ariza's ballhandling? 0 turnovers in 20 minutes for Ariza! That's not a rookie number! His ballhandling right now is better than that of Thomas'!

Did you read what I originally wrote about TT's dribbling as opposed to Ariza's? Well if you didn't here it is again:

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post"> understand the rookie mistake factor, but in 20 minutes last game he had NO turnovers, while in 25 mintues TT had a few. Ariza has great court-sense. His passes are creative and effective, while TT's are flat or non-existant. Ariza has twice as many moves with the ball than TT does. TT always slaps at the ball when driving, and when backing up he leans over with his right shoulder and dribbles with his left hand. His left hand dribbles a vulnerable ball which is often tipped away. Wheras Ariza dribbles swiftly and makes less violent motions.
</div>

^ All of that has been proven over the course of the start of the season and the pre-season.

 

He had no turnover because he barely had the ball. When he had the ball he either passed, dunked or shot right away he didnt try to take anyone of the dribble. And you say he was getting booed at MSG but .... wasnt every one else also?
Lets be real if Ariza was starting against Boston do you really think the knicks would have won the game? And one more question have you ever seen Ariza's freethrow shooting form when he was playin in college? I dont know about the rest of the people here but I've never heard of him before the draft.
But I will admit I might seem like a fix for the sf position but Things arent always what they seem.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BobbyEscobar:</div><div class="quote_post">He had no turnover because he barely had the ball. When he had the ball he either passed, dunked or shot right away he didnt try to take anyone of the dribble. And you say he was getting booed at MSG but .... wasnt every one else also?
Lets be real if Ariza was starting against Boston do you really think the knicks would have won the game? And one more question have you evr seen Ariza's freethrow shooting form when he was playin in college? I dont know about the rest of the people here but I've never heard of him before the draft.</div>
There were quite a few times where he had to carry the ball across the floor and set up a play.

No, not everyone was booed, he was booed in particular.
_______________________________________________
If Ariza started against Boston would we have won?

^What kind of a question is that? Everyone played poorly. That kind of question is uncalled for and does not really relate to the issue of whether TT should start or Ariza.

________________________
As for the question about Ariza and his form:

Yes, I did see his free throw form. I said already I bought some tapes and I watched them closely and saw his old form on various things. One of which was free throws. I hadn't heard much about him before the draft either, but after he was drafted I got the initiative to go ahead and check out why Isiah like him so much. So (as I said before) I went out and got some tapes of his games at UCLA (It had about 3 or 4 of his games on it and some practice clips from the entire UCLA team). And I noticed his form needed improvement.
Ariza fixed up his form this off-season.