Tim Thomas/Trevor Ariza debate (Split Thread - Sixers game)

I remeber the whole team getting booed not only Ariza. Marbury got booed. Crawford got booed it wasnt only Ariza it was basically the entire.
It doesnt take alot of handle to bring the ball upcourt when none is guarding you.
We'll see if the knicks will be a better team by starting Ariza ..... if they start Ariza

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BobbyEscobar:</div><div class="quote_post">I remeber the whole team getting booed not only Ariza. Marbury got booed. Crawford got booed it wasnt only Ariza it was basically the entire.
It doesnt take alot of handle to bring the ball upcourt when none is guarding you.
We'll see if the knicks will be a better team by starting Ariza ..... if they start Ariza</div>
Actually most of the players were booed. But when Ariza came out on to the floor at one point an entire section booed him in particular like mad.

There were some people guarding Ariza, what you said was totally wrong about him not being guarded.

 

Now imagine how much he would get booed if he started and had a bad game.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BobbyEscobar:</div><div class="quote_post">Now imagine how much he would get booed if he started and had a bad game.</div>
Everyone had a bad game if you didn't notice. And yes, he deserved the boos. But if you watched the game you'd see that TT played much worse and got his share of boos as well. We can deduce from this that, as a team, the Knicks were booed. Every player was booed as well. This is easier for one to take when everyone else plays poorly and gets recognized for it. Thus, the booing was a result of poor team effort, boos directed at him were magnified due to a poor performance overall as a team. The same goes for the likes of Marbury and Crawford.

 

Trevor Ariza is eventually going to get the starting nod, why not now? I think he is capable of starting, his #'s a better than Tim Thomas's and he's only 19 but the season is still young. I think that Ariza is going to be starting after All-Star break if he gets the nod this season or else for sure next season he is the starting SF for the Knicks. Tim Thomas is an average player thats overpayed, he shouldnt be starting well atleast not on a team with a talented rookie like Trevor Ariza and a great veteran with loads of experience named Penny Hardaway.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">What makes you think that Ariza won't be able to produce? The kid's work ethic is enormous! His (apx.) 50% FT% at UCLA is no longer existant. he's really working on his free throws! I bought some tapes of Ariza at UCLA two days after the draft, and I watched his form on FTs and he's improved dramatically! Same goes for his rebounding techniques and his ball control, patience, endurance, shot accuracy, shot choices, and slashes to the hoop.

He may not be ready to start, we don't know. But he is certainly looking to be the better man for the job <u>right now</u>, isn't he?</div>

Ariza's fg% is so high because he gets a bunch of Dunks and layups slashing to the basket. Once teams scout him out as he moves into the starting lineup. And plays him more to take the jumpshot his fg% will drop. And as far as his ft% goes you cant miss what you dont take. You cant really tell if he is a better free throw shooter then he was in college because he doesnt get to the line like he did in college. So the less free throws you take the higher your percentage has a chance to be, normally. If Ariza was getting to the line 4-6 times a game then you could tell whether he was better or not.

Your right I dont know 100% if he would be ready to produce. But Iam pretty sure he wouldnt (at best) give you much more then the 13 or 14 a game, Tim Thomas is giving, so there is really no need to rush.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Ariza's fg% is so high because he gets a bunch of Dunks and layups slashing to the basket. Once teams scout him out as he moves into the starting lineup. And plays him more to take the jumpshot his fg% will drop. And as far as his ft% goes you cant miss what you dont take. You cant really tell if he is a better free throw shooter then he was in college because he doesnt get to the line like he did in college. So the less free throws you take the higher your percentage has a chance to be, normally. If Ariza was getting to the line 4-6 times a game then you could tell whether he was better or not.

Your right I dont know 100% if he would be ready to produce. But Iam pretty sure he wouldnt (at best) give you much more then the 13 or 14 a game, Tim Thomas is giving, so there is really no need to rush.</div>Well, I think the fact that his FG jumper form is improving has been stressed enough so there is no need to repeat myself for the 50th time on that. As for FTs, his form has improved, this has nothing to do with how often he goes to the stripe.

As far as the points thing you mentioned.

TT gets less boards to go with those points, he gets more TOs and fouls and less assists and steals. The only thing that TT is better than Ariza at is blocks. That's it.

Ariza's points are often exciting thus bringing crowds into the game at the garden, or shutting them up on the road. TT's points are sloppy and provide no energy.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I think the fact that his FG jumper form is improving has been stressed enough so there is no need to repeat myself for the 50th time on that. As for FTs, his form has improved, this has nothing to do with how often he goes to the stripe.

As far as the points thing you mentioned.

TT gets less boards to go with those points, he gets more TOs and fouls and less assists and steals. The only thing that TT is better than Ariza at is blocks. That's it.

Ariza's points are often exciting thus bringing crowds into the game at the garden, or shutting them up on the road. TT's points are sloppy and provide no energy.</div>

Just because his form has improved or changed doesnt mean he will be a better free throw shooter. Free Throw shooting is a mental thing most of the time. Tim Duncan has always had a good looking form to his free throws but he still struggles alot from the line. Thats why I said you truely cant tell if he is an improved free throw shooter until he gets to the line often enuff.

I give you the rebounds Tim Thomas has always been a extremely poor rebounder for some with his size and suposed athletism. But the Fouls, Ariza already picks up alot fouls coming off the bench. And you know as a starter his silly fouls will be spotlighted alot more.

And yeah I agree that Ariza is spectacular but as a starter people will began to look past the spectacular and start focusing on the things that show substance. His ablity to shoot the basketball etc.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Just because his form has improved or changed doesnt mean he will be a better free throw shooter. Free Throw shooting is a mental thing most of the time. Tim Duncan has always had a good looking form to his free throws but he still struggles alot from the line. Thats why I said you truely cant tell if he is an improved free throw shooter until he gets to the line often enuff.

I give you the rebounds Tim Thomas has always been a extremely poor rebounder for some with his size and suposed athletism. But the Fouls, Ariza already picks up alot fouls coming off the bench. And you know as a starter his silly fouls will be spotlighted alot more.

And yeah I agree that Ariza is spectacular but as a starter people will began to look past the spectacular and start focusing on the things that show substance. His ablity to shoot the basketball etc.</div>Free throw form is essential, and his form in college was poor. Now there is no way that he will shoot FTs so poorly now as he had in collede.

I thought we went over this-His ability to shoot the ball....He's improving dramtically! And even now, its just as good as TT's shot. Except when Ariza shoots, he doesnt lose the ball beforehand like TT does ocassionally which could result in costly turnovers.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Free throw form is essential, and his form in college was poor. Now there is no way that he will shoot FTs so poorly now as he had in collede.</div>

Yeah of course its important but a better form doesnt mean that he will automatically shooter better if you dont know if his free throw problems is a mental thing or not.

Anthony Mason had one of the worst forms I ever seen yet he always seem to shot 70% or better becuase he always had that type of confidence in himself at the line even when people where trying to get him to change his free throw form. My point is if Ariza doesnt have the confidence in his ablities at the line then a change in free throw form will have little effect.




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I thought we went over this-His ability to shoot the ball....He's improving dramtically! And even now, its just as good as TT's shot. Except when Ariza shoots, he doesnt lose the ball beforehand like TT does ocassionally which could result in costly turnovers.</div>


Honestly, how do you know his jumpshot has improved that much nobody plays him to take alot of jumpshots. When teams start forcing him to take the jumper and he consistently makes the perimeter J, then you can say he dramatically improved. I dont know if you watch Mike & the Mad dog or not but they had a few callers calling in about this same subject a couple days ago. And I think it was said best during that show "lets discuss this mid-season when teams actually know who Ariza is & starts attacking his weakness".

The nBa is all about taking away a players strenght, most coaches say players in the league cant be stopped but lets try to take away their strenghts and make them beat using their weakness, if they do then you tip you cap. No coach has yet to take that try off approach when defending
Ariza because they dont know much about him. But once we hit about 20-30 games deep and the reports start circulating the league about Ariza's strenghts & weakness.And coaches start game planing for him as well as the players then we will see, how good this kid is..

 

^ I couldnt have said it any better

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah of course its important but a better form doesnt mean that he will automatically shooter better if you dont know if his free throw problems is a mental thing or not.

Anthony Mason had one of the worst forms I ever seen yet he always seem to shot 70% or better becuase he always had that type of confidence in himself at the line even when people where trying to get him to change his free throw form. My point is if Ariza doesnt have the confidence in his ablities at the line then a change in free throw form will have little effect.



</div>
Yes, but better form often results in better performance. That is the case 80% of the time, and to hit the point of Ariza' confidence-he's looked rather confident on the floor. Free throws have a strong emotional and mental element to that as well, I know. But still, form is the most important thing. And when one shoots poorly with bad form, and then he gets a better form, generally his performance improves.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Honestly, how do you know his jumpshot has improved that much nobody plays him to take alot of jumpshots. When teams start forcing him to take the jumper and he consistently makes the perimeter J, then you can say he dramatically improved. I dont know if you watch Mike & the Mad dog or not but they had a few callers calling in about this same subject a couple days ago. And I think it was said best during that show "lets discuss this mid-season when teams actually know who Ariza is & starts attacking his weakness".

The nBa is all about taking away a players strenght, most coaches say players in the league cant be stopped but lets try to take away their strenghts and make them beat using their weakness, if they do then you tip you cap. No coach has yet to take that try off approach when defending
Ariza because they dont know much about him. But once we hit about 20-30 games deep and the reports start circulating the league about Ariza's strenghts & weakness.And coaches start game planing for him as well as the players then we will see, how good this kid is..</div>
I have said many times that I got some tapes of him and his shot selection has improved as has his form. Yet again, form is the most important element of a good shooter. I know that no one has taken two steps back and let him toss jumpers, all I'm saying is that later on, his J will have developed enogh for him to pose a mid-range/perimeter threat.


^Either way, TT still can't shoot from outside anymore, he's nearly completely lost any 'touch' that he once had. TT is such a poor scorer now that defense on him is either non existent or oddly curved to his left side. TT's shot has slowed down as well, and he brings with him absolutely no intimidation and poses as no real threat to defenders.

 

I think TT has found his "Lost Touch"

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BobbyEscobar:</div><div class="quote_post">I think TT has found his "Lost Touch"</div>
Yeah, for one game. He has one of those nights, and then has 5 or 6 drek nights. That's the usual.

'Found his lost touch' - He was 6-16 shooting!

 

I didnt see the game vs the Clippers live but I seen a replay this mourning. And I was wondering if anybody seen how the Clippers shifted into the zone specificly when Ariza came into the game during the 2nd quarter. They shifted the zone forcing Ariza to be a shooter and 2 straight times he missed the jumpshot, once on the left side, once on the right side. Iam not specific about the time on the game clock but if someone has a tape of the game, you can fastforward it to about 9:00 mark in the 2nd quarter and start watching from there you will see what Iam talking about.

My point is this is just the start of how teams are going to start game planing different for the Knicks when Ariza comes into the game, as teams start to learn more about Ariza.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, for one game. He has one of those nights, and then has 5 or 6 drek nights. That's the usual.

'Found his lost touch' - He was 6-16 shooting!</div>

Actually he was 6-8 shooting in just 23 minutes of play. And he finished with 15 points. I found out from Frazier and the other guy commentating that TT's wife, his mother and sister are all very ill. That's the main reason why he has been struggling so badly so far. The whole team was encouraging him and trying to comfort him. This gave him the neccessary confidence for the game last night. Say what you want to say about him but he will give you 13 points a game. He was averaging like 6 points prior to his solid performance v.s. LA. People were saying the same thing about Sweetney's early career performance. They thought that he was not good enough and was another wasted lottery pick. Little did they know that his father had just recently died and he was having a hard time focusing on the games. I expect this game to give TT the confidence to allow him to have a good game tonight at Indiana.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, for one game. He has one of those nights, and then has 5 or 6 drek nights. That's the usual.

'Found his lost touch' - He was 6-16 shooting!</div>
What game were you watching?
And has anyone seen Livingston? He looks like the real deal.

 

Yeah, except for the missed dunk. LOL.

 

Lol

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BobbyEscobar:</div><div class="quote_post">What game were you watching?
And has anyone seen Livingston? He looks like the real deal.</div>
My bad. I meant to say:" Usually he does that on 6-16 shooting"

Yeah. last night was his 'big' night.