<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, I'm just going to drop the argument. We'll never come to an agreement, and that's being shown right now. We each have our own opinions. You have good points, I will give you that. But, it's not changing my opinion. I believe Nocioni starts until he proves that he doesn't deserve it at all, and quite frankly, 4 games into the year, you can't tell anything. So, on that note, I'm dropping this conversation for my own sake, cause I don't need to get into a heated argument with a fellow member and end up getting in trouble for it.</div> The whole purpose of the message board is to argue and discuss basketball. Do not run from this arguement. Accept defeat if you must(which you should) but do not back down bec. of fear of getting in trouble. How would you get in trouble for debating? Deng is the better passer. Deng is the better shooter. Deng is the better ball handler. Who is the better slasher? Probably Nocioni. But we haven't found that out yet, because we are asking Deng to be a shooter. Imagine telling Ray Allen to slash. I am not saying Deng is as good of a shooter as Allen is, but bear with me. Telling Allen to slash would be idiotic because it would take away what he does best; shooting. Deng, thus far, is our best shooter. Thats why he isn't slashing. Because we are asking him to shoot. Deng is better offensively. P-E-R-I-O-D.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">The whole purpose of the message board is to argue and discuss basketball. Do not run from this arguement. Accept defeat if you must(which you should) but do not back down bec. of fear of getting in trouble. How would you get in trouble for debating? Deng is the better passer. Deng is the better shooter. Deng is the better ball handler. Who is the better slasher? Probably Nocioni. But we haven't found that out yet, because we are asking Deng to be a shooter. Imagine telling Ray Allen to slash. I am not saying Deng is as good of a shooter as Allen is, but bear with me. Telling Allen to slash would be idiotic because it would take away what he does best; shooting. Deng, thus far, is our best shooter. Thats why he isn't slashing. Because we are asking him to shoot. Deng is better offensively. P-E-R-I-O-D.</div> You know, you ask me to come up with proof on why Nocioni is better at all these things. How about you come up with proof on why he's a better ball handler. Come up with proof on why he's a better passer. He's proven that, at this point in time, he is the better shooter. But, where's the proof to prove the other things? But there are other things you aren't noticing about Nocioni. He's a better rebounder (avg of 8.3 compared to Dengs 7.0). Nocioni als gets more steals (1.0 compared to Dengs .5). So there's another couple thoughts. But, again, come up with reasons on why Deng is a better ball handler and passer. Cause, in college, when I watched, he didn't seem like all that great of a ball handler or passer.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, you ask me to come up with proof on why Nocioni is better at all these things. How about you come up with proof on why he's a better ball handler. Come up with proof on why he's a better passer. He's proven that, at this point in time, he is the better shooter. But, where's the proof to prove the other things? But there are other things you aren't noticing about Nocioni. He's a better rebounder (avg of 8.3 compared to Dengs 7.0). Nocioni als gets more steals (1.0 compared to Dengs .5). So there's another couple thoughts. But, again, come up with reasons on why Deng is a better ball handler and passer. Cause, in college, when I watched, he didn't seem like all that great of a ball handler or passer.</div> Turnovers per game. Nocioni 2.75 Deng 1.0 I don't know how to prove that he is the better passer and ball handler other than to look at that statistic, and to watch the games. Nocioni is the better rebounder. But Deng is averaging 7 a game. Thats damn good for a SF. We need the shooting now moreso than the rebounding. Unless you figure Nocioni's rebounding will lead us to victories. We clearly need shooting.
You're right, we do need shooting. Eventually, Nocioni will get it going. He had a good shooting night with 5/9 the other night. But, I don't think you can rule him out just yet. It's like I said, he's adjusting to the American style of play. That's a big part of it. Likewise, Deng is adapting to the NBA style also, however, college is probably an easier transition to the NBA than the Euro style. If you want proof that it takes time, look at people like Dirk, Peja, Vlade, etc., etc. It goes on down the line. The only Euro I can think of right off the top of my head who had instant success his rookie year was Gasol. So, you have to think that he's going to take time to adjust.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">I am curious, but was it necessary to go and do all that whining? Paxson, for one, is not a terrible GM. He knows what he's doing. It's not his fault that his team can't work as a cohesive unit, and you also can't totally blame that on Scott Skiles. The players have to make an effort to play as a team, you can't just coach that. You want to know why those guys were on the court at the same time? It's because those are some of their better players. The Bulls have a lot of young talent and they need to figure out who to start, stuff like that. For me, it's not frustrating. I realize the team is young. Young teams make a lot of mistakes. And considering this group has 4 rookies (Duhon, Deng, Gordon, Nocioni) as four of their main players, it makes it less frustrating. I realize that young guys make mistakes and sometimes their egos are too big. That's part of the problem on why they can't play as a cohesive unit sometimes. But, for me, I don't look at all the problems. I try to look at the positives. The fact that we were leading at one point in time is a positive. It's just a matter of being able to close out games, and when you're a team that's gotten used to losing, it can be extremely hard to do so, and they've shown that this season.</div> Call it whining if you must but this is a board where i can relese my frustrations and get some feed back from others (so i appreciate your reply). BUt thats exactly the problem, Those youngsters are the best talent on the team. That shouldnt be the case thats why i said i cant blame our coaching staff i can only blame management for not supplying us with efficiant tallent. These bad GM decisions have to change! Look at the pistons and how fast Dumars Turned that team around, and the funny thing is Im not even thinking championship i just want to see some wins. If Dumars can bring that team to a championship we should at least expect a team that wont go 0-4 at the start of the season. This SH*T is unacceptable!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">You're right, we do need shooting. Eventually, Nocioni will get it going. He had a good shooting night with 5/9 the other night. But, I don't think you can rule him out just yet. It's like I said, he's adjusting to the American style of play. That's a big part of it. Likewise, Deng is adapting to the NBA style also, however, college is probably an easier transition to the NBA than the Euro style. If you want proof that it takes time, look at people like Dirk, Peja, Vlade, etc., etc. It goes on down the line. The only Euro I can think of right off the top of my head who had instant success his rookie year was Gasol. So, you have to think that he's going to take time to adjust.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post"> He does need to start. He's more prepared to play this game. </div> Wait.....First you said Nocioni had more experience....now he needs more time to develop than Deng? Which is it? Nocioni is more experience, persay. He has at least been playing against other men...professionals. He is also older. Deng is 19. Of the two, Deng should take more time to adjust. But he has asjusted fine.
The Bulls did make many regretable moves over the past few years. Hopefully they learned their lesson.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">Traded Rose and Marshall for crap. Turned down Marshall and 7th pick for 4th pick(which we'd have selected Wade). Traded Crawford for essentially crap. Drafted Ben Gordon, a PG. A PG. Ben Gordon is a PG. Gordon is a PG. But we play him out of position, which is leading to problems. Perhaps its due to the fact that Ben Gordon is a PG? Hmmmm..... Hardly a stellar record. We should not have drafted Gordon. We should have drafted Iguadola. Him, Nocioni, and Deng would have manned our wing great. Hinrich, Iguadola, Deng, Nocioni, and Chandler could have formed a damn good defensive unit down the stretch of games. I guess we have different opinions here. 6 years of losing seasons qualifies as frusturating to me. 6 straight years of not fielding a team that can compete qualifies as frusturating to me. Trading away our best players, (Brand, Miller, Artest, Crawford) qualifies as frusturating to me. I am curious as to what it would take to get you frusturated? THAT- COUPLED with the fact that Skiles seems to not want to start Deng, our biggest offensive weapon as of now.... 6 straight years of using this excuse. When can we begin to hold players/management accountable?</div> I aree on most points. The decisions that pissed me off the most were the fireing of carghtwright, Trading brand for chandler, And getting rid of Artest and Miller. If your a fan like me youve been keeping up with the bulls since mike left. How do you trade a young solid 18 point 12 rebound guy for a 17 year old that makes no sence. brand was young and still developing yet put up exellent numbers. Then we traded Artest and miller which made no sence because they were the only players on that Team who play their hearts out every night. If you recall our meetings with the Lakers back then artest was ripping up Kobe left and right diving for balls and blockinh Kobes fadeawy jumpshots consistantly. And miller was a decent defender that made key plays rebounded and gave Shaq a fit every time he played him. even to the point where shaq swung at Miller and ripped his jersey off. And the Firing of Carghtwright was crazy here we have a former scrappy center for the bulls to teach the young centers the basics. Is it his fault that they didnt want to put in the hard work. In my opinion the bulls need to hand their GM responsibilities to the coach so the players will respect the fact that if you become uncoachable your out of here.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">Traded Rose and Marshall for crap. Turned down Marshall and 7th pick for 4th pick(which we'd have selected Wade). Traded Crawford for essentially crap. Drafted Ben Gordon, a PG. A PG. Ben Gordon is a PG. Gordon is a PG. But we play him out of position, which is leading to problems. Perhaps its due to the fact that Ben Gordon is a PG? Hmmmm..... Hardly a stellar record. We should not have drafted Gordon. We should have drafted Iguadola. Him, Nocioni, and Deng would have manned our wing great. Hinrich, Iguadola, Deng, Nocioni, and Chandler could have formed a damn good defensive unit down the stretch of games. I guess we have different opinions here. 6 years of losing seasons qualifies as frusturating to me. 6 straight years of not fielding a team that can compete qualifies as frusturating to me. Trading away our best players, (Brand, Miller, Artest, Crawford) qualifies as frusturating to me. I am curious as to what it would take to get you frusturated? THAT- COUPLED with the fact that Skiles seems to not want to start Deng, our biggest offensive weapon as of now.... 6 straight years of using this excuse. When can we begin to hold players/management accountable?</div> I agree with all of Paxson's moves. Including Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshal, and Jamal Crawford. trading them for "essentially crap" was fine in my eyes. All those guys were in the first place was "essentially crappy players with bad attitudes." However, I do agree with you that we should not have drafted Gordon. Though, he was drafted to play SG and is essentially not a "normal" PG just like an Allen Iverson and some of the other smaller SGs out there. Still though, I don't like the fact that we drafted him. I expect Paxson to make a lot of big moves, and I personally do not think Gordon will be on this team come mid season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">We cannot win games from behind consistantly. Thats not a recipe for success. Meaning, we need to jump out early, with Deng. Our offense looks at its best with a Duhon/Hinrich/Deng as our 1,2,3. Its what we made our comeback against the Nets with.</div> I agree with that.
What I want is this: SF Deng PF Tyson C Eddy SG Nocioni PG Hinrich and our bench scoring can be Gordon, if need be. I think Nocioni has the ability and athleticism to play SG. Deng needs to start, no and ifs or buts about it. We need him out there playing the first quater. Maybe playing 36-40 min agame.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">Wait.....First you said Nocioni had more experience....now he needs more time to develop than Deng? Which is it? Nocioni is more experience, persay. He has at least been playing against other men...professionals. He is also older. Deng is 19. Of the two, Deng should take more time to adjust. But he has asjusted fine.</div> I never said he needs time to develop. I said he needs time to adapt. There's a difference. He's already developed all his skills, he just needs to adapt to the American style of play.
aright chill... the bulls arent at ther best, they are like a "rookie" team no like "real" expierenced players... just giv them time. i still give them credit for how good ther rookies are doing, again... they just need time.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting echo5:</div><div class="quote_post">aright chill... the bulls arent at ther best, they are like a "rookie" team no like "real" expierenced players... just giv them time. i still give them credit for how good ther rookies are doing, again... they just need time.</div> Time, Time, Time. 6 straight losing seasons. Do we need another 6? At what point do we begin to hold the players and management responsible?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BBall Guru:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with all of Paxson's moves. Including Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshal, and Jamal Crawford. trading them for "essentially crap" was fine in my eyes. All those guys were in the first place was "essentially crappy players with bad attitudes." However, I do agree with you that we should not have drafted Gordon. Though, he was drafted to play SG and is essentially not a "normal" PG just like an Allen Iverson and some of the other smaller SGs out there. Still though, I don't like the fact that we drafted him. I expect Paxson to make a lot of big moves, and I personally do not think Gordon will be on this team come mid season.</div> We should have never been in the position to trade Rose. Meaning, we should have never made that trade for Rose to begin with. Mistake #1, done by Krause. But we shouldn't have traded Marshall. He was a viable contributor to our team. My biggest problem isn't that we lossed Rose and Crawford.....its that every year, we essentially start over with a new trade. We can never become a good team until we can keep a core together. Brand Miller Artest Rose Marshall Crawford All have been traded. We start with a core(Brand, Artest, and Miller) and trade them away for a new core (Marshall and Rose, coupled with Chandler and Curry). Then we trade away Marshall, Rose, and Crawford and now have a core of (Deng, Nocioni, Hinrich, and C/C) Every year it seems we trade away our core for a new core. Exactly how are we supposed to win this way?
Dneg, and Noccioni might be out next for some highschool star who ends up underachieving more than players like Tim Thomas. With the Bulls a core is always interuppted with a pointless trade. They got an overpaid veteran in Davis, Jerome Williams a deffensive role player, and someone I don't remember for two great players. The Bulls need to keep on developing their players and when they most likely return to the lottery this season, they should again take great talent to develop.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">We should have never been in the position to trade Rose. Meaning, we should have never made that trade for Rose to begin with. Mistake #1, done by Krause. But we shouldn't have traded Marshall. He was a viable contributor to our team. My biggest problem isn't that we lossed Rose and Crawford.....its that every year, we essentially start over with a new trade. We can never become a good team until we can keep a core together. Brand Miller Artest Rose Marshall Crawford All have been traded. We start with a core(Brand, Artest, and Miller) and trade them away for a new core (Marshall and Rose, coupled with Chandler and Curry). Then we trade away Marshall, Rose, and Crawford and now have a core of (Deng, Nocioni, Hinrich, and C/C) Every year it seems we trade away our core for a new core. Exactly how are we supposed to win this way?</div> well, I understand what you mean. Paxson is simply just getting all the guys he wants and is getting rid of Jerry's mistakes. Be that Curry and Chandler also. Don't worry. I know everyone hates this, but it will take some time. Paxson will build this team into championship contenders within the next 5 years.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BBall Guru:</div><div class="quote_post">well, I understand what you mean. Paxson is simply just getting all the guys he wants and is getting rid of Jerry's mistakes. Be that Curry and Chandler also. Don't worry. I know everyone hates this, but it will take some time. Paxson will build this team into championship contenders within the next 5 years.</div> That assumes he finds a core of players that he's satisfied with. Right now, he can't find one. Hence the trading of Crawford, the trades he made last season, etc. So, hopefully, he gets a core he likes and keeps it around to get some chemistry going between the players.
ok but seriously the real reason is, all the players are like rookies... and they all play simple, and you hardly ever see them do anything fancy or even dunk =/ if u notice, they can go games without dunking or doing anything fancy. Because they all pretty much suck, and arent that fast.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting echo5:</div><div class="quote_post">ok but seriously the real reason is, all the players are like rookies... and they all play simple, and you hardly ever see them do anything fancy or even dunk =/ if u notice, they can go games without dunking or doing anything fancy. Because they all pretty much suck, and arent that fast.</div> What are you talking about? For one, who cares if their all rookies. They don't play simple, because, quite frankly, basketball is a "simple" game. And really, I don't give a damn if they go a game without dunking or doing things fancy. It does not matter whether they do that or not. If they win, that's what matters. And quite frankly, they don't all suck and they're not all slow. So, I question you, do you really knokw what you're talking about?
