anybody catch j. rose's post game comments? this guy has to be one of the highest paid losers in the game. he said there are young dudes on the team that don't understand winning basketball, which sounded like he was signaling out cb4 (the irony of that statement is that in denver, chicago and now in toronto he was a pathetic loser), he went on to imply that people are dividing the team by pointing out the deficiency of the first unit (well maybe if he and vince didn't settle for fadeaways and could defend, the discrepancy in play wouldn't be so evident), and he finished his incoherent rant by insisting guys aren't playing their roles. he said forwards should rebound, he insinuated that rafer should get 10+ assists and that scorers like he and vince should score. reality check jalen, u pathetic overpaid loser, basketball is a team game and u don't enslave players into roles. i watched u and vince try and go 2 on 5 offensively last year and get your butts kicked night after night. dude just retire and hangout with jay z and beyonce cause clearly u suck and delusional about your own self worth. its time the raptor brass make some tough decisions, even if it conflicts temporarily with the bottom line. jalen and vince must go, they are carcinogenic parts to an otherwise functioning, hardworking team. the offense needs to run through bosh, watch how much better he plays with the second unit than he does with jalen and vince. bosh and rafer won us the utah and san antonio games, which are the most impressive wins of the seasons, its time raptor management shows confidence in these kids. Plus, mo pete looks awesome at times, i would like to see if he can be more productive if we can stretch out his minutes. also, remember bonner, moiso, milt, donyell and pape sow are scheduled to be FA?s this summer, we desperately need the cap relief.
dont need to write a book...Bottom line...Trade them or make them sit on the bench while CB4 becomes the greatest...simple
The offense shouldn't run through Bosh, he's definately not ready for that, look at his turnover numbers, unless we want him to turn the ball over like Richard Jefferson. Also I don't know if you've been watching the same games, but Vince hasn't really played poor defense, the only times were the second game agaisnt Portland, against Denver, and in a stretch of the game vs the Wiz, but agaisnt Utah, Houston, Seattle, Detroit, and in the first Portland game he played good overall defense, and in the other games he's been decent-good defensively. I don't know how anyone can still view him as a ghost defender. Vince got to the line 6 times today, he still takes his jumpers, but we can't fault him for the loss today, now earlier he was playing like he didn't know how to ball, but he's picked it up. Another big thing is that Vince is only averaging 0.82 turnovers a game, but his numbers are garbage, but have been improving. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">mo pete looks awesome at times, i would like to see if he can be more productive if we can stretch out his minutes</div> You mean you haven't seen this before? Now about a trade I think we need to trade them because we can't trade Rose without Vince, I don't think Vince is currently hurting the team, he's actually playing alright, but having him and Rose together on the floor is not good for the team, and I've never been a fan of Jalen and never wanted him here in the first place. Also about Bosh with the second unit, Palacio - Mo - Lammond - Bonner and Bosh is actually one of our least productive units, they hurt us the most when they're on. They're better with Marshall, or with Carter and Alston replacing Lammond and Milt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">The offense shouldn't run through Bosh, he's definately not ready for that, look at his turnover numbers, unless we want him to turn the ball over like Richard Jefferson. Also I don't know if you've been watching the same games, but Vince hasn't really played poor defense, the only times were the second game agaisnt Portland, against Denver, and in a stretch of the game vs the Wiz, but agaisnt Utah, Houston, Seattle, Detroit, and in the first Portland game he played good overall defense, and in the other games he's been decent-good defensively. I don't know how anyone can still view him as a ghost defender. Vince got to the line 6 times today, he still takes his jumpers, but we can't fault him for the loss today, now earlier he was playing like he didn't know how to ball, but he's picked it up. Another big thing is that Vince is only averaging 0.82 turnovers a game, but his numbers are garbage, but have been improving. </div> let me ask u a philosophical question, where are we going with two aging perimeter, synthetic stars that happen to occupy half of our cap room? i'll answer it for u, nowhere decent. bosh's turnover numbers? have u seen jalen's turnover numbers this year? and i won't even point out his pg experiment last season. btw, about vince's defense, obviously in portland derek anderson made him his personal white house intern and yesterday afternoon, jamal crawford had at least 5-7 blow by's. anyways, the crux of my position is that we need to give bosh the ball, and we need to give the kid the ball often. look at his fg%. and the most feared play the raptors run is the pick and roll that he and rafer run. plus, i think having malcontents like jalen and vince will stunt his growth, i look at him sometimes and i know he thinks he can take his man but jalen takes an ill advised jumper. confidence is the greatest gift u can give a basketball player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Now about a trade I think we need to trade them because we can't trade Rose without Vince, I don't think Vince is currently hurting the team, he's actually playing alright, but having him and Rose together on the floor is not good for the team, and I've never been a fan of Jalen and never wanted him here in the first place. Also about Bosh with the second unit, Palacio - Mo - Lammond - Bonner and Bosh is actually one of our least productive units, they hurt us the most when they're on. They're better with Marshall, or with Carter and Alston replacing Lammond and Milt.</div> they are better with rafer replacing milt, cause they need a creator and bosh compliments the unit really well by giving them an ostensible inside presence. and i disagree, i think lamond "big money" murray helps the forwards rebound, something our two first unit overpaid losers don't do. and mo pete is the defensive stopper, every good team needs one. btw, i think we would have won that game yesterday if played rafer, milt, mo pete, big money and bosh in the fourth. milt and rafer could have slowed down crawford and starberry. don't diss the ZOO crew, they got more heart than our two divas in the first unit.
so vince and jalen played well but bosh and rafer looked like they haven't basketball before. in fact, when jalen and vince play well the whole team looks disorientated. trade jalen and vince!!!
"Trade them or make them sit on the bench while CB4 becomes the greatest...simple" Rather than bench them....trade them for some quality players!!!!! If your gonna bench them anyway its the practical thing to do. Dont let such talent like Vince go to waste. I say give him to portland for shareef and DA.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">so vince and jalen played well but bosh and rafer looked like they haven't basketball before. in fact, when jalen and vince play well the whole team looks disorientated. trade jalen and vince!!!</div> Yea it was their fault Bosh and Rafer sucked Was is also their fault that Rafer didn't play too good defense today? Look at how Bosh played today, I'm teling you he's not ready to be the man, he's not KG, he can't just rely on a face up game unless he improves his jumpshot even more, but he's definately not a forst option right now. Remember he's not even getting double teamed right now...
Have you guys seen Bosh? He can't do anything with the ball when he's near the baseline with the ball when the Raps run plays for him. For the most, He's a mid range shooter, with an explosive first step, that often causes him to turn the ball over. He has no back to the basket game, and isn't ready to be a first option on the team, not even a 2nd option IMO. When Bosh is good, he's good or real good, when he's bad, he's bad, there's no inbetween. Until he develops a back to the basket game and better ball control, I wouldn't run much plays for him. A few a quarter is good, if he's doing well, keep on giving him the rock, if not, give it back to Jalen or Vince.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Yea it was their fault Bosh and Rafer sucked Was is also their fault that Rafer didn't play too good defense today? Look at how Bosh played today, I'm teling you he's not ready to be the man, he's not KG, he can't just rely on a face up game unless he improves his jumpshot even more, but he's definately not a forst option right now. Remember he's not even getting double teamed right now...</div> og i threw out questions for u to answer in my first reply to and u've yet to answer. the questions i pose are central to my argument that we have to trade jalen and vince for cap relief.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">let me ask u a philosophical question, where are we going with two aging perimeter, synthetic stars that happen to occupy half of our cap room? i'll answer it for u, nowhere decent. bosh's turnover numbers? have u seen jalen's turnover numbers this year? and i won't even point out his pg experiment last season. btw, about vince's defense, obviously in portland derek anderson made him his personal white house intern and yesterday afternoon, jamal crawford had at least 5-7 blow by's. anyways, the crux of my position is that we need to give bosh the ball, and we need to give the kid the ball often. look at his fg%. and the most feared play the raptors run is the pick and roll that he and rafer run. plus, i think having malcontents like jalen and vince will stunt his growth, i look at him sometimes and i know he thinks he can take his man but jalen takes an ill advised jumper. confidence is the greatest gift u can give a basketball player. </div> Jalen is a guard though, that's the difference, I hate Jalen, let's be serious here, and he obviously makes stupid mistakes constantly, but Jalen still handles the ball much more than Bosh does, for the amount of touches in temrs of putting the ball on the floor etc that Bosh get's, his turnover numbers are bad, and it's just how he turns it over that bothers me. I think I mentioned than Vince got killed by DA, and Jamal had some drives on, but 5-7 blow by's, I don't think Vince guarded him enough for that to happen, also considering most of Crawfords points were jumpshots, he scored twice in the paint the whole game. About Bosh feeling he can beat his man, he aleady has confidence, their's no doubt about that, he's no child, we don't need to give him the ball 20 times a game to improve his confidence, and like I said, I don't like Rose anyways. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">they are better with rafer replacing milt, cause they need a creator and bosh compliments the unit really well by giving them an ostensible inside presence. and i disagree, i think lamond "big money" murray helps the forwards rebound, something our two first unit overpaid losers don't do. and mo pete is the defensive stopper, every good team needs one. btw, i think we would have won that game yesterday if played rafer, milt, mo pete, big money and bosh in the fourth. milt and rafer could have slowed down crawford and starberry. don't diss the ZOO crew, they got more heart than our two divas in the first unit.</div> Bosh doesn't give an inside presence, Lammond is good but not in that lineup, he's good in the hardcore bench lineup, Milt-Mo-Lammond-Bonner-Marshall and the one with Araujo replacing Marshall, lol. Rafer was benched because he was playing bad, Milt didn't do that good a job on Marbury, and MoPete was playing, the obviously have more heart, we've seen that, but they can't win everything.
og your floating like mo pete in his first 4 seasons as a raptor. where are we going as a franchise with two perimeter, synthetic stars occupying half of our cap space? i'm tired of fadeaway jumpers and jalen's offensive fouls, change is good.
^I totally agree, this team needs a change and it needs a change now. I could care less if Vince and Jalen score a lot, I only care about this team winning, and right now they aren't doing that. Right now I have never felt so strongly about trading a player on this team, Vince is #1 on my list to go, then if Jalen can be sent with him that would be a bonus. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know how anyone can still view him as a ghost defender.</div> I've tried my best to watch Vince on defense this season, to actually see what people were talking about of him being a bad defender. After only about 3-5 games, I came to the conclusion that Vince is one of the worst 1-on-1 defenders in this league (for a starter) bar-none. Even recently I have still stayed with that point, he is brutal on the defensive end - hes missing key fundamentals like staying on the balls of your feet, Vince just stands there on his heels, its horrendous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">og your floating like mo pete in his first 4 seasons as a raptor. where are we going as a franchise with two perimeter, synthetic stars occupying half of our cap space? i'm tired of fadeaway jumpers and jalen's offensive fouls, change is good.</div> Haha, where have you been, I said I'd like us to trade them, just don't think the reasons you put up were good enough reasons as to why we should trade them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Franchise:</div><div class="quote_post">^I totally agree, this team needs a change and it needs a change now. I could care less if Vince and Jalen score a lot, I only care about this team winning, and right now they aren't doing that. Right now I have never felt so strongly about trading a player on this team, Vince is #1 on my list to go, then if Jalen can be sent with him that would be a bonus. I've tried my best to watch Vince on defense this season, to actually see what people were talking about of him being a bad defender. After only about 3-5 games, I came to the conclusion that Vince is one of the worst 1-on-1 defenders in this league (for a starter) bar-none. Even recently I have still stayed with that point, he is brutal on the defensive end - hes missing key fundamentals like staying on the balls of your feet, Vince just stands there on his heels, its horrendous.</div> The ghost defender thing was me, he's not a good defender, but he hasn't been playing bad defensively, he doesn't have the fundamentals as I also see him on his heels, but he's staying with his man, actually moving on defense, and his off ball defense has been good, so he definately hasn't been a ghost defender. Even with +- stats, the team is better defensively with him on the floor, but offensively, that's a different story
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Haha, where have you been, I said I'd like us to trade them, just don't think the reasons you put up were good enough reasons as to why we should trade them.</div> 1+3 =4 and similarly 2+2=4. likewise, we may have different rationalizations for vince and jalen's departure but we have arrived at the same conclusion, our synthetic stars must bid farewell.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">1+3 =4 and similarly 2+2=4. likewise, we may have different rationalizations for vince and jalen's departure but we have arrived at the same conclusion, our synthetic stars must bid farewell.</div> It's easy to say trade Jalen Rose. The truth is nobody wants him or his 10+ million dollar contract for the next 3(?) years. I believe that's what happened with Portland; they didn't want Rose, but Toronto insisted on him being part of the deal with Carter so they could get rid of him and dump his salary. Regardless, I have a good feeling both will be gone before the trading deadline. As a Raptors fan, I'm more worried about Arujao. What was the brass thinking? Guy looks like a serious stiff, who's gonna need 5+ years of development before he grasps the basic fundamentals of the NBA game, unlike Matt Bonner who gets it. I just hope he's not the second coming of Luther Wright.
personally im all for a vince trade, but i just dont want to rush it and not get a good package in return. i didnt like the shareef trade because it puts us immediately out of a playoff hunt and puts us right into rebuild mode. a rebuild mode that would appear to almost COUNT on the signing of a free agent in the spring like allen or redd. i think the time to trade vince the trade deadline when someone's gonna wanna add some fire-power to their offence for a playoff push...if not then, the best time is whenever a good deal is presented us. i have faith in babs though...faith that he's only gonna pull the trigger on a deal that will benefit the team right away, not two to three years down the road.
^ You're never going to get a perfect package for Vince at this rate. Raptor fans feel as if they're going to get a superstar straight up for Vince. That doesn't seem likely. A couple of solid starters maybe, but you won't get someone like Paul Pierce or Zach Randolph for Vince. I'd rather solid starters then have Vince carter with the way it's going. I'd like to see this team focused around Bosh and Alston. We almost had the Portland deal but it looks like that didn't work out. I think they'll ship him near the deadline when other teams are depserate as well. And by the way: So far into the season, Arujuano looks like a waste of another draft pick by the Raptors. I still believe we should have picked Jameer Nelson and made a couple of moves here and there to reshape the team. We could have still signed Alston and shipped Palacio and Carter somewhere but looks like we're stuck with a player who's set to be a bench warmer. I see another potential John Thomas in Rafeal Arujuano. Only Hoffa is much more hyped. And is failing much more significantly in the eyes of many beholders.
I wouldn't even want Pierce or Randolph, I just want a player that will stop us from getting eaten alive by the Nazr Mohammed's and Brendan Haywood's of the league
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post"> i think the time to trade vince the trade deadline when someone's gonna wanna add some fire-power to their offence for a playoff push....</div> It seems the majority of people want vince and jalen traded. The more debated questions seems to be to who? what for? And when? I propose they trade earlier rather than later for the following: a) The trade rumours are going to be a constant distraction to a young and inexperienced team. chris bosh may not be the # 1 option of this team just yet, but he is the future of the team. c) Rose has to go with Vince cause he has one of the worst contracts in the league. They represent a substantial chunk of money and it will be diffilcult to move them right before the deadline because a hot team who is looking to add-fire power will have to give up a large chunk of their roster to match contracts. The fact is a GM doesn't want to disrupt his team trade 2 starters and a bench player( likely what the raps are hoping for) for 2 disgruntled highpaid fading stars. d)Salary Cap e)The raps will be in the play-off hunt simply becuase the east is weak and mitchell is a great motivator. If where in contention it would be tough for babcock to make a move to benefit our salary cap which we despretly need without weakening our talent pool which if where in the play-off hunt would look idiotic. f) Rebuild - It seems painfullly obvious that this team is mired in mediocrity right now. The bench plays well, the starters don't, They win some, they lose some, They might make the play-offs they might not. But its apparent that this is not a championship caliber team. They arn't close to putting it all together. Jalen Rose and Vince Carter will never win a championship with the Raptors. Make the trade, free up the cap room start the process of rebuilding. we have some young players to build around but we risk the chance of losing them if we have aging, overpaid, underperforming stars who are not commited to a team concept. sorry for the length.
