<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> Jamal for Vince? No! Crawford is a potential all-star and is playing better than Vince Carter. You know this cat is nice when he dropped 50 points. Not many players in the league have done that. This is definitely a laugher . Isiah Thomas worked real hard in getting this guy in the summer it will be rediculous if this guy gets traded for a falling star. Isiah Thomas will be a grade-A Clown if this ever goes down.</div> Vince is 27, there are 3 reasons why his stats are low. 1. This is a career low in minutes. 2. When Vince is on the floor plays don't really run through him. 3. Vince is playing like an asshole, takings stupid shots, and not trying. First of all, at this point in time I think Vince is a maturer and has more basketball sense than crawford, and I think Vince is more athletic and is in his prime. He is 27, with 3 more years so until 30. I calculated Carters stats in 37 min Crawford in 37 min: 19.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .4 bpg, 2.62 TO pg Carter in 37 min : 19.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .9 bpg, 1.35 TO pg So basically a Raptors game where Carter doesn't care and plays don't run for him, yet he matches Crawford in every statistic except Turnovers. Seriously, Carters a guy that looks up to thomas, and when Carter respects some1 he does his shit. With our rookie coach & gm carter doesn't care. If Carter tries on your NYK team, he will have better scoring numbers, better assist numbers, better rebounding numbers, and less turnovers, with a better FG% than crawford.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">This is definitely out of the question: NY Post Toronto Sun Jamal for Vince? No! Crawford is a potential all-star and is playing better than Vince Carter. You know this cat is nice when he dropped 50 points. Not many players in the league have done that. This is definitely a laugher . Isiah Thomas worked real hard in getting this guy in the summer it will be rediculous if this guy gets traded for a falling star. Isiah Thomas will be a grade-A Clown if this ever goes down.</div> You're not serious. You know there is a player named Vince Carter who dropped 50+ points a couple of times and is a 5 time All-Star. It's obvious Crawford is not going to be traded, but to say he's better than Carter is foolish. Carter hasn't had one season better than Carter's yet. This year might be the year, but individually and in the right system, Vince is the better player. Plus Vince is averaging a career low in minutes, not because he's playing bad, but because the team is more spread out than the previous 9 years, and it has a good balanced offense. This doesn't allow Carter to get much into a rhythm. Crawford is a potential All-Star yes, but he is not better than Vince Carter. Put Carter in Crawfords situation, and he'd be tearing it up. Carter has been slowed down in Toronto because the offense is much more spread out. Remember when Cartered played under Lenny Wilkens? In his first year he averaged 27.6 PPG and 25 and 20 (Injury Prone season, would have been higher)). Earlier this year when the Raps faced the Knicks, the few times Carter got the ball, he was tearing it up against JC and whoever. Carter is also a good defender, despite what the media says and what you hear. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I calculated Carters stats in 37 min Crawford in 37 min: 19.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .4 bpg, 2.62 TO pg Carter in 37 min : 19.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .9 bpg, 1.35 TO pg So basically a Raptors game where Carter doesn't care and plays don't run for him, yet he matches Crawford in every statistic except Turnovers. Seriously, Carters a guy that looks up to thomas, and when Carter respects some1 he does his shit. With our rookie coach & gm carter doesn't care. If Carter tries on your NYK team, he will have better scoring numbers, better assist numbers, better rebounding numbers, and less turnovers, with a better FG% than crawford.</div> Good Stats found, but even with 37 minutes played, Carters averages would be higher than those projected ones. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Vince cannot stretch the defense like Houston can simply because he doesnt command that much respect. Not because he's a bad three point shooter but simply because people arent afraid of him behind the three point line. Maybe they should be afraid maybe they shouldnt. Fact of the matter is their not. Carter is not a better shooter than Marbury or Crawford. He cant shoot the midrange jumper like Kurt Thomas either. Vince might be a ever so slightly better defender but not to the point where there's a real difference. Their both average defenders. You say, "He's quicker, faster, a better passer, younger, more athletic, better defender, better rebounder, actually able to penetrate". I dont know if you say the Knicks-Nuggets game but Houston showed some nifty ball handling and passing skills. It certainly wasnt the best but it certainly wasnt bad either. He's(Carter) not enough of a better defender to matter enough to mention. Again I say he(Carter) isnt playing like he's younger now is he? Vince plays forward he had better be a better rebounder. Have you seen the man(Carter) play lately?? I'd rather have Houston's world class jumpshot and the contract that comes along with it that will help propel the Knicks in the playoffs than Vince's silly fadeaway jumpers that causes Toronto to lose and the contract that comes with it.</div> Do you know who Vince Carter is? He's a jump shooter that will only drive when you run plays for him inside and/or has a defender up in his grill. Of course he's not the shooter like Allan Houston, only a few are, but it's a ridiclious comparasion. Have you noticed that Allan Houston is untradable? Not because he's a superstar, it's because he's only a jump shooter, with bad knees and a bad contract. Vince Carter is much more than that. Carter does have a pretty good jumpshot. Crawford is a streaky shooter, but Carter is more pure at shooting. That's where he gets the majority of points from throughout the past couple of years...jumpshots. How do you know he can't shoot the mid-range shot? Do you even watch Raptors game. Almost all of his jumpers are from mid range and out. He's especially good at the mid-range turn around shot. I actually don't think you know who Vince Carter is. Do you know about Vince Carters defense? Forget what you heard, it's what you see. And Vince plays good defense. How many people have shutdown players like Dwyane Wade in the closing seconds of game? Not many. Vince can do that, as he has proven through out the past few years against the likes of Wade, Allen, Nowtizki and more. Can Allan Houston shut down a defender in dimes seconds in the game, or let alone guard a defender good? From what I seen, he can't. You're also underating VC's passing skills. He's a very good passer. He attracts double/triple teams, and he finds the open defender with 2 or 3 men all over him. The only player I think is a better player than Vince Carter on the Knicks is Marbury...after him it's Crawford and a bunch of former franchise players.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I calculated Carters stats in 37 min Crawford in 37 min: 19.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .4 bpg, 2.62 TO pg Carter in 37 min : 19.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .9 bpg, 1.35 TO pg So basically a Raptors game where Carter doesn't care and plays don't run for him, yet he matches Crawford in every statistic except Turnovers.</div> I could care less if Carter can score. We already have enough scorers. Though Carter is still 27, there is no question he is declining. At this stage, Crawford has a better upside then him. Crawford is 3 years younger than Carter and their stats are almost identical. Also Carter's is severely injury prone which is a big no for me. He is injuried as we speak! The Knicks are looking to make a strong playoff push (especially with Indiana gone) what we need is gauranteed scoring. Crawford will give us this and Vince wont. Also the Knicks have some young guys like Ariza, and Sweetney who shouldn't be exposed to Vince's whining. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Seriously, Carters a guy that looks up to thomas, and when Carter respects some1 he does his shit. With our rookie coach & gm carter doesn't care. If Carter tries on your NYK team, he will have better scoring numbers, better assist numbers, better rebounding numbers, and less turnovers, with a better FG% than crawford.</div> Let's hypothetically say Isiah Thomas got fired, or if the Knicks had a bad season, will Carter want to leave? Carter can't always get what he wants. Also I heard Carter and Wilkens have a little bit of problems. Will he not do his thing is he has problems with Wilkens? Finally trading Jamal Crawford, the player we have been working so hard to get, will only disrupt our chemistry. If they are almost identical in stats even trade them if it's going to make not much of a difference? Isiah already did this with the KVH/TT deal and it proved very costly so I am sure he has learned from his mistake. Atleast I hope he has.
^glad to see some people still have their logic systems in tact. Vince would be 25-6-5 on the Knicks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I could care less if Carter can score. We already have enough scorers. Though Carter is still 27, there is no question he is declining. At this stage, Crawford has a better upside then him. Crawford is 3 years younger than Carter and their stats are almost identical. Also Carter's is severely injury prone which is a big no for me. He is injuried as we speak! The Knicks are looking to make a strong playoff push (especially with Indiana gone) what we need is gauranteed scoring. Crawford will give us this and Vince wont. Also the Knicks have some young guys like Ariza, and Sweetney who shouldn't be exposed to Vince's whining. </div> How could you care less if Vince can score? All Jamal Crawford can do is score. Vince can do much more than score. Stats are almost indentical...but do you see Vince play basketball? He'll rip it up if you give him the ball and tell him to score. He'll rip it if you tell him to do anything. Give him the ok sign, and he'll do it no problem. The problem is though, he hardly gets the ok sign nowdays. Also, what is guranteed scoring suppose to mean? Vince Can give you gurantee scoring if you actually play him and run plays for him. I'm not saying that the Knicks Vince, but hypothetically, Vince can give you guranteed scoring when you need it, as he has proven time after time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's hypothetically say Isiah Thomas got fired, or if the Knicks had a bad season, will Carter want to leave? Carter can't always get what he wants. Also I heard Carter and Wilkens have a little bit of problems. Will he not do his thing is he has problems with Wilkens?</div> When has Carter asked for something to be done before this year? Like get someone fired, or leave? 6 Years in the league, 4 coaches, 1 team, 2 straight missed playoffs... I'd be pretty ticked off too, and many would ask for a trade as well. Imagine having 3 coaches and 3 years, and going through the same thing all over again, building to win, breaking it down and repeating. You can't say you'll be happy. Carter wouldn't be a good fit in NY, but saying that he can't always get what he wants is uncalled for and not relevant.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">You're not serious. You know there is a player named Vince Carter who dropped 50+ points a couple of times and is a 5 time All-Star.</div> I never said Carter didn't drop 50 points. I never negleted any of his achievements. I don't know how many times Carter had 50 points or how old he was, all I know is when Jamal Crawford was barely 24 he dropped 50 on the Raptors. Carter was a phenominal player back in his younger days but, he isn't that type of player now. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's obvious Crawford is not going to be traded, but to say he's better than Carter is foolish. Carter hasn't had one season better than Carter's yet. This year might be the year, but individually and in the right system, Vince is the better player. Plus Vince is averaging a career low in minutes, not because he's playing bad, but because the team is more spread out than the previous 9 years, and it has a good balanced offense. This doesn't allow Carter to get much into a rhythm.</div> First of all, I never said Crawford was better than Carter. Please tell me where in my post do you see that? I said that at this stage, Crawford is playing better basketball than Vince. Whether Carter doesn't get his minutes, or whatever is going on, the fact of the matter is he is declining plain and simple. Vince used to be a superstar but, he isn't anymore. Crawford is not a superstar yet but, he still has much more to play in his career and can become one. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Crawford is a potential All-Star yes, but he is not better than Vince Carter. Put Carter in Crawfords situation, and he'd be tearing it up. Carter has been slowed down in Toronto because the offense is much more spread out. Remember when Cartered played under Lenny Wilkens? In his first year he averaged 27.6 PPG and 25 and 20 (Injury Prone season, would have been higher)). Earlier this year when the Raps faced the Knicks, the few times Carter got the ball, he was tearing it up against JC and whoever. Carter is also a good defender, despite what the media says and what you hear.</div> Those stats are mostly useless because they are when Vince was in his prime and was a superstar. He isn't that now so why put it up? Carter might have been "tearing it up" against the Knicks but, he hasn't been "tearing it up" against other teams so, does that mean he can only "tear it up" against certain teams? He might have been "tearing it up" against Jamal in the first game, however, the second game it appears that Jamal tore him up with 30 on him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you know who Vince Carter is? He's a jump shooter that will only drive when you run plays for him inside and/or has a defender up in his grill. Of course he's not the shooter like Allan Houston, only a few are, but it's a ridiclious comparasion. Have you noticed that Allan Houston is untradable? Not because he's a superstar, it's because he's only a jump shooter, with bad knees and a bad contract. Vince Carter is much more than that. Carter does have a pretty good jumpshot. Crawford is a streaky shooter, but Carter is more pure at shooting. That's where he gets the majority of points from throughout the past couple of years...jumpshots. How do you know he can't shoot the mid-range shot? Do you even watch Raptors game. Almost all of his jumpers are from mid range and out. He's especially good at the mid-range turn around shot. </div> Well, take it as you want to. You said he is not playing bad and yet he shoots 41% from the field. For someone who shoots as well as you say he is I would expect him to be shooting higher. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're also underating VC's passing skills. He's a very good passer. He attracts double/triple teams, and he finds the open defender with 2 or 3 men all over him. </div> Carter does not have an edge over Crawford in passing. If anything Crawford is better as he used to PG. Crawford can do just as good as Carter if not better. I don't see his passing skills as being a major way why I would take him over Crawford. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The only player I think is a better player than Vince Carter on the Knicks is Marbury...after him it's Crawford and a bunch of former franchise players.</div> Even if that were true, the fact of the matter is that Carter is not a good fit for this team, and will only disrupt chemistry for us.
"The problem is though, he hardly gets the ok sign nowdays." it is cause he is on a really messed up team with all these crazy personalities. He would jumpstart his slow season in New York.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How could you care less if Vince can score? All Jamal Crawford can do is score. Vince can do much more than score.</div> Crawford can score, he can pass, he can penetrate, he can shoot (when he takes the proper shots) and many other things I'm leaving out. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stats are almost indentical...but do you see Vince play basketball? He'll rip it up if you give him the ball and tell him to score. He'll rip it if you tell him to do anything. Give him the ok sign, and he'll do it no problem. The problem is though, he hardly gets the ok sign nowdays. Also, what is guranteed scoring suppose to mean? Vince Can give you gurantee scoring if you actually play him and run plays for him. I'm not saying that the Knicks Vince, but hypothetically, Vince can give you guranteed scoring when you need it, as he has proven time after time.</div> I should have clarified this...sorry. By gauranteed scoring I meant that because Vince is always getting injured, we might need him, but, he will be on the injuried list. As opposed to Crawford who isn't injury prone who is almost gaurunteed to give us the scoring we need. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When has Carter asked for something to be done before this year? Like get someone fired, or leave? 6 Years in the league, 4 coaches, 1 team, 2 straight missed playoffs... I'd be pretty ticked off too, and many would ask for a trade as well. Imagine having 3 coaches and 3 years, and going through the same thing all over again, building to win, breaking it down and repeating. You can't say you'll be happy. Carter wouldn't be a good fit in NY, but saying that he can't always get what he wants is uncalled for and not relevant.</div> The Knicks have had a tough time too you know. The things with Layden, and missing the playoffs were very frusturating. Still, Carter can be frusturated but, to say I want to leave the team in which he missed 78 games at the time, is also his fault too.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said Carter didn't drop 50 points. I never negleted any of his achievements. I don't know how many times Carter had 50 points or how old he was, all I know is when Jamal Crawford was barely 24 he dropped 50 on the Raptors. Carter was a phenominal player back in his younger days but, he isn't that type of player now.</div> Carter was 23 and 24 when he dropped 50...Bring up the fact the Crawford scored 50 points is pointless. Carter could drop 50 points if he gets as many touches, but it doesn't matter...after all, Tony Delk out of all people scored 50 points. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, I never said Crawford was better than Carter. Please tell me where in my post do you see that? I said that at this stage, Crawford is playing better basketball than Vince. Whether Carter doesn't get his minutes, or whatever is going on, the fact of the matter is he is declining plain and simple. Vince used to be a superstar but, he isn't anymore. Crawford is not a superstar yet but, he still has much more to play in his career and can become one. </div> I read the comment wrong you said Crawford is playing better than Carter. Sorry for the mishap. I don't see Carter on the decline. If you put him in the right place where he gets enough touches like he did in previous years, he'll florish like he did in his first few seasons. Last year wasn't a bad season for Carter. He only missed 3 games due to true injury, and he phenominal, especially after The All-Star break, where the team gelled, but missed the playoffs because of various injuries. Still Vince Carter showed no signs of decline last year, as he light up teams for 30+, 40+ points on a team that was a defense first team. He played good defense and was passing the ball very well. His achillies might be the only thing slowing him down, however, skills wise, everything is right there, and he'll perform when you give him the ball. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Those stats are mostly useless because they are when Vince was in his prime and was a superstar. He isn't that now so why put it up? Carter might have been "tearing it up" against the Knicks but, he hasn't been "tearing it up" against other teams so, does that mean he can only "tear it up" against certain teams? He might have been "tearing it up" against Jamal in the first game, however, the second game it appears that Jamal tore him up with 30 on him.</div> Prime? Do you even know when a player is in his prime? It's before he hits the decline. Reggie Miller hit his prime a couple a years ago. Houston did last year. But VC isn't at his prime yet. He still is one of the elite players in the league. Vince was never a superstar, there are very few superstars in the league, he was an elite player in the league, but not a superstar. He's still a star, but he has to show a little more, but it doesn't look like he's going to show much under Sams equal play and play good you play, play bad you sit, system. Vince Can rip anyone up. Crawford didn't tear Carter up because VC only had him for a few possesions. Point is, Vince can put up 40 points any given night if you give him the ball, and tell him to score 40, and at the same time win the game for you. If you have watched any more than 2 raptor games this season, you can see that Vince has not gotten consistant minutes. Recently before his achilles injury, he played very good despite the poor play of his teammates...and that's when he got consistant minutes. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, take it as you want to. You said he is not playing bad and yet he shoots 41% from the field. For someone who shoots as well as you say he is I would expect him to be shooting higher.</div> I can tell you don't know a thing about Vince Carter. If you have watched atleast a few games over the past few years, you can see that Vince is very good shooter. The problem is he doesn't take high percentage shots. If you run an Iso for him, he'll drop a few on you. Give him a high percentage play for him to run in, and I gurantee you he'll be averaging more than 41% from the field. Numbers aren't everything. After all Kobe is just shooting 40%, but he also is a very good shooter. The difference between Kobe and Carter is that he attacks the basket more, and he gets 20 more plays for him than Carter in a game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carter does not have an edge over Crawford in passing. If anything Crawford is better as he used to PG. Crawford can do just as good as Carter if not better. I don't see his passing skills as being a major way why I would take him over Crawford.</div> I wasn't comparing Vince Carters passing skills to Crawfords, I was comparing it to Allan Houstons passing skills, as I was reffering to the post that I quoted. Jamal Crawford use to be a PG, but there is a reason he got moved to the Shooting Guard...It's because he is a Shooting Guard. Their are only like 5-8 Real Starting Points in this league. Carter can get better shots for his teammates than Crawford, on top of himself, and that's what matters most in terms of passing. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if that were true, the fact of the matter is that Carter is not a good fit for this team, and will only disrupt chemistry for us.</div> I could care less about the Knicks chemistry, they have no chemistry because Isiah is up there making trades every 5 minutes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">^glad to see some people still have their logic systems in tact. Vince would be 25-6-5 on the Knicks.</div> Why would you say this? If Carter came to NY he would have many options to choose from. Houston or Crawford, Hardaway, JYD, TT who all play his position. You say we are underrating him but, do you think you are overrating Carter, or perhaps underrating the Knicks?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would you say this? If Carter came to NY he would have many options to choose from. Houston or Crawford, Hardaway, JYD, TT who all play his position. You say we are underrating him but, do you think you are overrating Carter, or perhaps underrating the Knicks?</div> If VC was on the Knicks one or two of those players would have to be included in the deal to make it work. The deal won't happen though, because there's no deal you can possibly give us that would make Babcock accept. Crawford and Marbury are the only players I would be willing to accept, but it's obvious they aren't being traded.
I wish everyone would get off the "16ppg" bandwagon. We all know what Vince can do. He showed signs of it in the early games of the season. So everyone be quiet about "B-b-b-ut look at his stats! He sucks!" Any idea when Vince will be moving to New York?
Fine. Whatever you guys say. Vince Carter is such a great player. He's better than everyone on our team except Marbury. That's why teams are offering so much to get him right? This is getting tedious. We're not getting anywhere. Since Vince Carter is still "a top fifteen player" you can keep him. You all just said you wont take Houston for him(best offer you've had so far). Myself and mrj18 have said we dont want Vince period. So that's that. We want our players and you want yours. The Knicks will look to make a good run in the playoffs while the Raptors will continue to free fall into oblivion and get ready for the lottery.
Rofl Carter trade with houston is bad ...... Carter against the j.Crawford - now thats much better ...but toronto would not accept this...... Tribute to H20 got a poin there =) We do not need Carter
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">. You all just said you wont take Houston for him(best offer you've had so far). </div> Porland: SAR and Nick Van Exel or Dereck Anderson Memphis: Bonzi Wells and Mike Miller And in the summer there were rumour of Allan Iverson for Vince Carter I hardly think Houston is a better deal than the Portland and memphis trades...but then agian...all of these, even Houston are just rumours.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">I hardly think Houston is a better deal than the Portland and memphis trades...but then agian...all of these, even Houston are just rumours.</div> Thank goodness they are only rumors!
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Vince is always getting injured, we might need him, but, he will be on the injuried list </div> Always injured? He was injured for the first time this season and only missed 9 games last season. That's more healthy then most "elite players". Your whole injury prone basis is on the fact that he missed significant games in 01-02 and 02-03 but aside from that, what other seasons has he really been injury prone? The injury he suffered wasn't anything major so all this bashing just needs to stop. Carter isn't playing well and we all know that but to question his shooting his just ridiculous. He is an above average shooter and passer when he applies himself. And forgive me for not reading the whole thread, I was merely glimpsing through it but someone said Crawford is better because he dropped 50 points when he was 24?? What kind of weak arguement is that? So what? What does that prove? Cliff Robinson dropped 50 before, as well as Tony Delk. Just because a player drops 50 doesn't mean that they are better then another. According to that thoery, because Croawford drops 50 when he's 24, he's not only better then Carter but Duncan and Garnett as well since they don't drop 50's often.
Don't worry about the Knicks getting carter. Worry about the Nets getting him. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1948449
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Don't worry about the Knicks getting carter. Worry about the Nets getting him. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1948449</div> Wow. This is some pretty interesting stuff. That's a great trio of perimeter players. Looks like the Nets are looking to duplicate the line up we're trying to build. And the Raptors will have be better as well. We just might have that Battle of the Atlantic afterall.
