Well he?s not necessarily overrated at least to me he?s not, but overrated in terms of comparison to the likes of fellow SG's such as Tracy McGrady and Allen Iverson (He' still a SG, just listed at PG). According to not one but many analysis, there wasn't anyone that came close to Kobe at the SG position. Don't get me wrong, I'd still rank Kobe over Iverson and McGrady but as far as him being by far better, I think that margin closed some. When you look at the circumstance that Kobe's been in such as playing with Shaq and than looking at Iverson and McGrady situation as in being alone, in a way I thought it wasn't all that fair to compare them because Kobe was obviously in a much better/easier position. Now that times have change and Kobe and Iverson are in similar situations, how much better is Kobe really better than Iverson? For starters, you can look at the stats I posted below. I also decided to keep McGrady out as far as statistics goes because he's in a whole different system in which everything runs through Ming and NOT him. So the stat dropping was very much expected. Okay, first let me see that I think it's a fact that Kobe is indeed better than Iverson and McGrady, however by a very small margin, if not barley better than Iverson and McGrady. So what is your take on this? Is Kobe easily the #1 SG, or is here right there in the same level with McGrady and Iverson? Also, as far as the clutch factor Kobe ONCE had over them no longer applies. First, you have Allen Iverson who hit an amazing shot in the Olympics. Next there were those two VERY crucial 3Pt shots against the Celtics on opening night that gave them a victory. Next, there was that shot against the NJ Nets with 6.2 seconds remaining that sent the game to OT. Then we have his first buzzer beater against the Indiana Pacers and lastly that amazing steal against the Wizards which eventually got him the game-winning basket as time expired. There are also numerous other clutch performances by Iverson, but those are the most notable ones. Tracy McGrady on the other hand is among the top players in crunch time stats. And I won?t even get to that clutch performance he had against the Spurs. I haven?t really followed Tracy McGrady since playing for the Rockets, but what I do remember is that he had numerous clutch shots this season and one against my very own 76ers. Looking at what he?s done this season as well as Iverson, I think they?re both clearly clutch players. Btw, I just thought that I it would only be right to bring this too light because being clutch is a vital part to being a ?superstar?, and in Kobe?s defense the clutch factor would have come up. <font color="White">..........................</font> <font color="Red">Allen Iverson</font> <font color="White">...................</font> <font color="DarkOrchid">Kobe Bryant</font> PPG: <font color="White">..........................</font>28.2<font color="White">.................................</font> 27.0 RPG: <font color="White">...........................</font>3.9<font color="White">..................................</font> 7.5 APG: <font color="White">...........................</font>7.6<font color="White">..................................</font> 7.3 SPG: <font color="White">...........................</font>2.4<font color="White">..................................</font> 1.2 BPG: <font color="White">..........................</font>.000<font color="White">.................................</font> 1.25 FG%: <font color="White">........................</font>41.6%<font color="White">..............................</font> 39.5% TOPG: <font color="White">.........................</font>4.3<font color="White">..................................</font> 4.5 MPG: <font color="White">.........................</font>41.3<font color="White">.................................</font> 43.3 (Obviously Bryant dominates in the rebounding, but you should know why) At one time I used to think that Kobe was a by far better shooter than Iverson, but now that The Diesel isn?t around, opposing teams now have defenses mainly to stop Bryant and it?s showing especially with his FG% and at times shot selection. Kobe is now just starting to feel the strain of carrying a team on his back over an extended period of time. Again, I'm not saying Allen Iverson/Tracy McGrady is the better player, however the gap isn't/wasn?t as large as it seemed out to be, but then again many may disagree.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, as far as the clutch factor Kobe ONCE had over them no longer applies.</div> I don't know about that comment. We aren't even half way through the season. We can't say the AI and T-Mac has caught up to Kobe when it comes to being clutch. It's too early. I don't think Kobe is overated, but I do think AI is underrated. I don't think he'll ever get the respect he deserves because of his image.
Kobe is just learning how to play without Shaq. And he is doing pretty well at it, if you look at Allen and Kobe you will see that Kobe is just learning his team, while Allen has been with his for two years. Kobe is most def. not overrated, he may be a little underated if you look at his team now, and seeing the only proven talent they have is Lamar Odom. Kobe is now learning how to make the players around him better, he'll probaly have LA in the sixth seed in the playoffs. And along the way pick up MVP honors. Plus Kobe doesn't have to score 50 pts every night just to have his team winning, if you ask me A.I. is the one who is overrated. Western Playoffs Seeds: 1st San Antonio Spurs 2nd Phoenix Suns 3rd Minnesota Timberwolves 4th Seattle SuperSonics 5th Dallas Mavericks 6th Los Angeles Lakers 7th Sacremento Kings 8th Houston Rockets MVP: 1st Kobe Bryant 2nd Steve Nash 3rd LeBron James 4th Ray Allen 5th Kevin Garnett 6th Shaquille O'neal
Let me just say this again because I think that they're may be some confusion. Overall, I'm not saying Kobe is overrated, he?s definitely not. But in terms of comparisons to Iverson and McGrady he is overrated IMO. Or in other words he's simply not by FAR better than AI and T-Mac like majority said to be.
I think he is better than both of them. His game is more complete. Post moves, 3's, drives to the lane, and clutch shots. T-mac and AI certainly had their share of shots, but if I had to choose one to take it at the buzzer, it would definately be Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting trenchteam:</div><div class="quote_post">I think he is better than both of them. His game is more complete. Post moves, 3's, drives to the lane, and clutch shots. T-mac and AI certainly had their share of shots, but if I had to choose one to take it at the buzzer, it would definately be Kobe.</div> I disagree with that. Not saying that Kobe doesn't have a complete game (because he does) but I thin T-Mac is more versitale. He is more physical, can play in the post, shoot the 3, drive to the bucket and he makes others around him better due to his passing abilities. I would rather have T-Mac at the buzzer because he is built for clutch situations. He could find an open man or hit just about any reasonable shot. But I don't think Kobe is overrated because he is a great player that has a complete game and is a leader on and off the court.
Who cares how much better Kobe is? The only way you are proving anything anyways is with stats and how clutch they are, which is ridiculous. What about Kobe's defense verses Iversons huh? Or Mcgradys. I'd take Kobe's ANYDAY. As you can see, that can't be listed as a stat.
The Lakers at the 6th seed is way too high.. they'll be lucky to get 8th seed. I'd rather have McGrady at crunch time than Kobe... the spurs incident is all the proof you need, only the most clutch player could pull off what T-Mac did... single handedly tear apart the Spurs and their 10 point lead in 30 FREAKIN SECONDS!!! T-Mac is more versatile than Kobe, being taller and able to post up easier... Iverson is a really great player, just noone notices it or tries to. Since he's now reduced to an injury prone "ballhog" who's team can't win.... P.S - Kobe's defense is overrated. Being 1st team all defensive each year is total BS. He doesn't have that defensive intensity and skill that the league's top defensive players have.... They're just tryign to market him as the next Jordan, since Jordan was an amazing defender, and won DPOY and 1st team all defense... the league wnats Kobe to be a spitting image... in that sense, his D is overrated.
Oh most definitely, he is overrated. His defense is terrible, no matter how many Defensive 1st Teams he's won. He's worse than McGrady, even though the Magic were completely out of the playoffs by their 20th game of the year last season. McGrady is more clutch, even if his clutch performance against the Rockets is quite possibly his first true clutch performance ever. Kobe doesn't pass the ball to anyone, although his assists per game is over 7.0. Kobe doesn't put out any effort for his team, yet he hasn't given up on the Lakers, who have been led by Kobe to a record over .500. Okay... *sarcasm button off* Is Kobe overrated? No way.
Kobe is better than McGrady and Iverson....ppg changes everygame with Kobe...but over the season so far he has held it the most between him-dirk-iverson. Also McGrady has one clutch performance...Kobe has had many numerous ones...way more the McGrady. Also Mr. Wade you I have heard you say before when Shaq was in L.A. he made kobe ten times better correct? Does not the same concept apply with Yao and McGrady...umm interesting yet...without Shaq Kobe team he is leading is play off while when T Mac led his own team they had no chance...even 20 games into the season. Kobe > T Mac. Period.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The Lakers at the 6th seed is way too high.. they'll be lucky to get 8th seed. I'd rather have McGrady at crunch time than Kobe... the spurs incident is all the proof you need, only the most clutch player could pull off what T-Mac did... single handedly tear apart the Spurs and their 10 point lead in 30 FREAKIN SECONDS!!! T-Mac is more versatile than Kobe, being taller and able to post up easier... Iverson is a really great player, just noone notices it or tries to. Since he's now reduced to an injury prone "ballhog" who's team can't win.... P.S - Kobe's defense is overrated. Being 1st team all defensive each year is total BS. He doesn't have that defensive intensity and skill that the league's top defensive players have.... They're just tryign to market him as the next Jordan, since Jordan was an amazing defender, and won DPOY and 1st team all defense... the league wnats Kobe to be a spitting image... in that sense, his D is overrated </div> Everytime I see you post in here, it's always something negative In your above post, you are basically proving my point by simply downplaying everything Kobe is known to be good at. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'd rather have McGrady at crunch time than Kobe... the spurs incident is all the proof you need, only the most clutch player could pull off what T-Mac did... single handedly tear apart the Spurs and their 10 point lead in 30 FREAKIN SECONDS!!! </div> Really? That's only one play. Vince Carter is even more clutch then Tracy Mcgrady (when he plays) so comparing Kobe and Tracy in clutchness based on one play is ludacris. For Mcgrady's one clutch play, I can mention 10 of Kobe's. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Iverson is a really great player, just noone notices it or tries to. Since he's now reduced to an injury prone "ballhog" who's team can't win.... </div> Iverson was definetly noticed in his playoff run back in 2001. Unfortunetly for him, that's the way the media and the casual fans are. When you're high, everyone is high on you. When you're low, no one cares. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> P.S - Kobe's defense is overrated. Being 1st team all defensive each year is total BS. He doesn't have that defensive intensity and skill that the league's top defensive players have.... They're just tryign to market him as the next Jordan, since Jordan was an amazing defender, and won DPOY and 1st team all defense... the league wnats Kobe to be a spitting image... in that sense, his D is overrated </div> That senetence completely discredits the rest of your arguement about how his defense is overrated. I'm pretty sure the NBA isn't trying to market him as the next Jordan, that title fairly belongs to Lebron, not Kobe. Kobe's "Jordan" image vanished gfrom his grasp when he was accused of rape. It seems as if your willing to discredit anything and everything Bryant has done in his career so really, it's impossible to debate with your comments.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kobe Bryant can share the ball with Odom, Cook, Atkins, Jones, but T-mac doesnt. </div> What? Tracy doesn't play with those players and second of all, his supporting cast in Orlando wasn't that great last year. He would pass the ball but none of them could buy a shot. I hate Tracy Mcgrady but he is one hell of a talent, even a Kobe fan should be able to see that. I just don't believe he should be considered more clutch then Kobe cause of one clutch play. i've said it before and I'll say it again, Vince Carter and Paul Pierce are more clutch then him. Until he surpasses those two then he shouldn't be mentioned with Kobe.
T-mac, first of all last year had NOBODY, WHICH IS WHY THEY GOT TO 21 WINS. When your 2nd best player is Juwan Howard, you know you're in for trouble. At least Kobe has a proven player who's almost an allstar by his side in Odom, a great roel player in Butler, and some semitalented bigmen, not Andrew Declerque. I could base T-Mac's clutch performance vs. SA and say he's better than Kobe, but he's had others, not just that one. Plus, just having that one performance is outstanding... it's almost as good or just as good as all of Kobe's shots combined... I mean c'mon people in 30 seconds, the amount of time it takes to take a pee, T-Mac comes from a 10 point defecit, with a 4 point play during the strech, while getting the game winner over 3 players... I mean... it's just insane, it will go down in the history books. And I'm not saying Kobe isn't better than A.I and T-Mac, cause he is. I'm just saying he's not as amazing as everyone thinks he is. All the lakers fans think he's some sort of heaven sent angel/god. It seems you guys think he's miles ahead of T-Mac and A.I, which he really isn't. There's a gap, but it isn't very big. Kobe is the most athletic of the 3, and can shoot the best of the 3. All 3 of them have pretty bad leadership so w/e. But his advantages are different than T-Mac's and A.I's. T-Mac can post up other SGs and SFs, cause he's 6'9 and has a wickedly fast/explosive 1st step. He also has range and can create many mismatches. Kobe just uses his sheer athletiscism to punish defenders. The things he can do are astounding yes, but it doesn't make him a god. He still has areas to improve on just like every player. His strengths are also different than A.Is... A.I uses his quickness and deadly crossover to burn defenders. His J isn't that great but when he's hot, he gets really hot. Now, he's playing PG and is doing very good, arguably better than Kobe now that he's got 2 backto back 50 point performances and a 40 point performance today... P.S - Wade's gotta be up there on the clutch list aswell... the dude is just whack in teh crunch time and 4th quarter he's just devastating...
Kobe is a better defender than both, he isn't a 1st team defender IMO because he doesn't always bring the defensive effort like someone like Artest would, but I also don't like giving props to guys like Trenton Hassell or Bruce Bowen for their defense because they do nothing offensively. If I were to pick perimeter defenders I'd pick those guys who are actually offensive threats and play defense, guys like Ron Artest, Kirilenko, Posey, Kobe, Marion, Joe Johnson, Bobby Simmons now and Doug Christie isn't that good a one on one defender, he's more of an off the ball defender. Anyways yea, Kobe is a better defender than them, but yes the comparison wasn't fair because those guys had teams keying in on them alone and it hurt them, but Kobe is injured a little, but McGrady has had the back injuries too, and Iverson is always banged up all over, so I don't know if it would count as an excuse, but I think without the injuries he wuld shoot 43-44% and 33-35% from the field as opposed to 39.5% and 31% he has right now. The thing about being clutch is that it's harder to be a clutch player when you've been doing so much all game and having to work so hard for your offense, but one reason Iverson hasn't been clutch is because he's not really a good shooter. Iverson hit his first game winning shot of his career in the Olympics, and had his first 2 game winning shots this season, one being the layup vs the Wiz, so I wouldn't call him "clutch". He hits some big shots, but not enough to close the gap yet. I've seen McGrady hit other big shots before, but like spawn said, Carter and Pierce [meh] are more clutch than him, Pierce sometimes screws the Celts a lot down the stretch though, but no one sees that part on the highlights. One thing though is that some people bring out assist numbers to support a player, but why do you think Marbury was called a hog even though he averaged 20 points and 8-9 assists? I'd say Iverson is the biggest ball dominator though, the reason his team has never had any other big offensive options or they've had short career's in Philly has been because like Pat Croce said he doesn't "work well" with them, he needs to be surrounded with defensive players/role players who don't really want to shoot the ball. Being overatted [Kobe], no he's not, some people just had too high expectations of him now that he "had his own team". I know their's always the talk of adjusting to being the man and all, but it really should'nt be that hard a transition, especially considering how well Tmac did it after being on the Raptors as a 15 PPG option and being the go-to-guy on Orlando. He was actually playing defense then too, not statistical defense, but actual defense [shock]. Even Michael Redd made the transition smoothly, I mean no one really thought their were any other options on the Bucks. Also considering Kobe could basically have been called the first option these other 2 years or so, he didn't have the same defensive pressure as now, but he was the main scorer, and had much more defensive pressure than a Tmac or Redd would've had. His [Tmac's] transition was from the 2nd option to being the main offensive guy and he had good numbers in terms of scoring, shooting, and only averaged 2.57 turnovers a game, but he's always been good at the turnover department. Maybe it's the height and length, allows him to see over double teams and pass out of them easily. [I'm guessing??] I think overexpectation would be a better term, but I don't see him being overatted really. EDIT: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">T-mac, first of all last year had NOBODY, WHICH IS WHY THEY GOT TO 21 WINS. When your 2nd best player is Juwan Howard, you know you're in for trouble. At least Kobe has a proven player who's almost an allstar by his side in Odom, a great roel player in Butler, and some semitalented bigmen, not Andrew Declerque.</div> Yes, very bad team in comparison, but Tmac also gave up, and the team just didn't have chemistry, yes Chucky Atkins and Mihm are demigod's in comparison to Lue and Declerq at their positions, but I think Kobe would've won at least 35 games with that team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I could base T-Mac's clutch performance vs. SA and say he's better than Kobe, but he's had others, not just that one. Plus, just having that one performance is outstanding... it's almost as good or just as good as all of Kobe's shots combined... I mean c'mon people in 30 seconds, the amount of time it takes to take a pee, T-Mac comes from a 10 point defecit, with a 4 point play during the strech, while getting the game winner over 3 players... I mean... it's just insane, it will go down in the history books.</div> It's great and all, but it's still only one time right? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is the most athletic of the 3, and can shoot the best of the 3. All 3 of them have pretty bad leadership so w/e. But his advantages are different than T-Mac's and A.I's.</div> Actually I'd argue that Tmac is the best shooter of the bunch from the outside at least, his mid-range shot is good too, maybe it's a combination of his height and length which would allow him to rise up easily over the defenders, but his outside jumper is the best. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">P.S - Wade's gotta be up there on the clutch list aswell... the dude is just whack in teh crunch time and 4th quarter he's just devastating...</div> What does Wade have to do with this though?
Point proven... everyone says "Kobe isn't a ballhog because he averages 7 apg." Big deal... that doesn't make you not a ball hog. A.I also averages 7 apg, but he's a ballhog, just like last and and year before and always... high assist numbers but he's still considered a ball hog. It's cause he demands the ball every time down the court and is shoot first. just like kobe. They just happen to get assists. Sometimes by choice, others by desperation. I'm not degrading Kobe as a passer, we all know he can pass. But he really doens't have the mentality of wanting to pass and get a good easy bucket, then to go drive and get a lower percentage bucket but get the 2 points rather than the assist. He has a scorer's mind, which means he ball hogs it, most of the time. There could be certain games where he is feeling unselfish. I would really like to see Kobe play with a team that has Andrew Declerq at C, Juwan Howard at PF, Keith Bogans at SF and Tyronn lue at PG... we'll see if he can still average 7 assists and all that, while keeping his TOs, just as low as T-Macs at 2.5 and still be able to make clutch shots, even though he wouldn't get a chance cause the team is so horrible. P.S - LOL i just added Wade in there for no reason lol...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Wade:</div><div class="quote_post">The Lakers at the 6th seed is way too high.. they'll be lucky to get 8th seed. </div> Thats the thing. They are playing in the WEST! All the top teams are there. The Lakers move to the east, they are FIRST in the Atlantic, 2nd in Central, 3rd in the South East. lol. Miami will probrably end up with the top seed when you look at whos in the East. The Lakers on the other hand, have teams like the SONICS, Suns, Spurs, Minny, Sactown, and Dallas to contend with.
Sonics... they are a very beatable team. They seem to me right now winning by fluke. The suns and sactown are great regular season teams, but when the playoffs roll around they will both break down... guaranteed. So that leaves 3 teams to contend with.
Sonics are a beatable team, but right now they are playn with the confidence that they cant be beat. As long as they play that way, they'll be a tough team the remainder of the year. Someone has to tear down that confidence in the playoffs. Otherwise I dont see them losing.
