Kobe "Ballhog" Bryant

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">In reality, everything comes down to the boxscore (W's) and how you handle yourself - on and off the court. Kobe isn't having success in either one of those categories, so until then he'll maintain the status as a 'ballhog.'
<font size="1">*He's having a successful season as an individual on the court, but as long as his team remains mediocre, he won't be considered a success</font></div>
This is exactly the post I was waiting for.

So, Kevin Garnett finally made it past the first round of the playoffs last season. I've never heard anyone call him a ball hog.

Also, the greatest ever (Jordan) didn't win an MVP or a championship until 1990...yet he was scoring 37 PPG and averaging 5.6 assists per game in those first 6 seasons...but never, ever a ball hog.

Now, about reputation...maybe it has something to do with it, but I don't think that's very fair, either...so maybe those that assume he's a ball hog should take a seat and re-think their statements before jumping to conclusions.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">This is exactly the post I was waiting for.

So, Kevin Garnett finally made it past the first round of the playoffs last season. I've never heard anyone call him a ball hog.

Also, the greatest ever (Jordan) didn't win an MVP or a championship until 1990...yet he was scoring 37 PPG and averaging 5.6 assists per game in those first 6 seasons...but never, ever a ball hog.</div>
But regardless of how many W's Jordan and KG got, they were still very dominate at what they did. (Kobe is NOT as dominate as KG/Jordan and never will be). It's almost impossible for KG to have an 'off night' because he'll attack the basket and make up for his poor shooting in other ways. At the end of the game he'll still get his. Don't say Kobe always 'gets his' because just a couple of days ago he only scored 11 points against Memphis.

And if I'm not mistaken, the Twolves were still an above average team until the playoffs came.. Right now the Lakers are just average - nothing more, nothing less.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, about reputation...maybe it has something to do with it, but I don't think that's very fair, either...so maybe those that assume he's a ball hog should take a seat and re-think their statements before jumping to conclusions.</div>
That has almost everything to do with it. Like I said before, Iverson is being called the same thing. McGrady was tagged with the same name last year too even though his supporting cast was so weak. But in the end his attitude was so poor and he didn't care or show faith in his teammates while led to being called 'selfish' and a 'ballhog.'

 

First off, I?ll point out the POSTIVES. Kobe is a very talented player, he has great court vision and the ability to drive and dish out. He is a team player, the coach is required to build plays for other star players (Odom) to create multiple options.

NEGATIVES:
1. Leads league in Turnovers
2. Low FG%

My definition of a ballhog isn?t just the number of shots you take. RealDeal you earlier posted the % of shots each star player takes.

My definition of BALLHOG
Ballhog=((# of shots + minutes/game with ball in his hands + TO) ? (FG made + Assists)

You could also factor in free throws. These are only the fundamental variables, a turnover is more important having the ball in someone?s possession for a minute.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheHitman:</div><div class="quote_post">#1 wtf???

Did you watch the game at all, when Kobe went scoreless, LAKERS = LOST..
Kobe is averaging 7assist per game for gods sake even more than LeBron. 27/7/7 give him a break dammit.</div>

I love this reasoning? If a team loses their superstar regardless if he is a ballhog or not they most likely will lose. Its like if New Orleans loses Baron Davis or Houston loses Yao.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kobe 8 Ball:</div><div class="quote_post">Yea..oh so crappy..thats why we are still a playoff team..in the west..last time I checked, that means you have something...really..grow up
</div>

One reason why I dislike the current Lakers and Kobe is because Kobe didn?t have to be the only option on offence for the Lakers, which is Real Deal?s main explanation or excuse why Bryant has to play the way he has been.

Kobe didn?t have to encourage the Laker?s organization to trade Shaq. If he didn?t then life wouldn?t be as hard for him, his FG% would be higher, TO down, and the win column up considerably.

By the way, whoever is going to respond to my post, please respond to most or all of my points. Because I dislike when some1 takes only one part of the post and continuously harps on it.

I just want to maintain this is not against Laker fans. So no personal grudges or anything.

 

Skip, just one little thing that's not exactly important, but needs to be noted: Kobe didn't run out Shaq or Phil.

Everyone...look...you may believe that Kobe did, that's okay...but it was the fact that Shaq turned down the offer (which was less money) and he even admitted this. It may seem as if Kobe ran him out, but Shaq wouldn't leave because of another player...and if he did, that's just plain ignorance.

Kobe may be "the man" right now in Los Angeles, but Buss and Kupchak wouldn't give up a $30 million player just because he doesn't get along with Kobe.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">
Tim Duncan - 22% of the Spurs' shot attempts
Kevin Garnett - 22%
LeBron James - 24%
Allen Iverson - 26%
Ray Allen - 24%
Tracy McGrady - 24%
Kobe Bryant - 27%

Now, with the exception of Allen Iverson, each of these players have a better supporting cast than that of the Lakers. You can argue that Kobe is shooting poorly, but that gets into another debate and has absolutely nothing to do with how many shots he takes, because, with the poor supporting cast...Kobe still leads every player listed in assists (tied with Iverson).
</div>

Kobe - .392 FG%, a nice 7.2 assists, however 4.65 TO/game
Lebron - wow .491 %, also 7 assists, with only 3.3 TO/game
Tim Duncan - hmmmm shoots .502% ballhog? half the TOs
Kevin Garnett - shoots .482% and half the TOs... averages pretty much same assists
AI - has been called a ballhog
Tmac - look at last years Orlando
Allen - shoots .448 and only 2.4 TO/game

First of all, Kobe has the worst FG% and most TOs of all these guys.

Lebron and KG average high assists, with less turnovers, and get a lot of shots. However they have good FG%s.

TD and Allen, both have low TO/game and high FG%s.

I would consider Allen Iverson and Tmac ballhogs so I don't know why you put them there to prove a point. Kobe should be with them. However both Tmac and AI are shooting better and have less TOs than Kobe.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SkiptoMyLue11:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe - .392 FG%, a nice 7.2 assists, however 4.65 TO/game
Lebron - wow .491 %, also 7 assists, with only 3.3 TO/game
Tim Duncan - hmmmm shoots .502% ballhog? half the TOs
Kevin Garnett - shoots .482% and half the TOs... averages pretty much same assists
AI - has been called a ballhog
Tmac - look at last years Orlando
Allen - shoots .448 and only 2.4 TO/game

First of all, Kobe has the worst FG% and most TOs of all these guys.

Lebron and KG average high assists, with less turnovers, and get a lot of shots. However they have good FG%s.

TD and Allen, both have low TO/game and high FG%s.

I would consider Allen Iverson and Tmac ballhogs so I don't know why you put them there to prove a point. Kobe should be with them. However both Tmac and AI are shooting better and have less TOs than Kobe.</div>
Haha...read the rest of my posts. The turnovers have been explained already...and as for his shooting slump, it'll disappear. He'll get healthy again, and hopefully his teammates will start helping him out more...otherwise, all of his shots will be forced.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">Haha...read the rest of my posts. The turnovers have been explained already...and as for his shooting slump, it'll disappear. He'll get healthy again, and hopefully his teammates will start helping him out more...otherwise, all of his shots will be forced.</div>

Too many extremely long paragraphs, I usually read the first and last paragraphs. Or any replies.

I don't think either of us has a scource pointing out that Kobe isn't healthy. If he isn't then please provide one. I know that he had plantar fasciatus, but both of us cannot argue about that point. If you do have a valid scource, then I'll agree his FG% could improve.

I thought that the Lakers teammates were trying, but asking them to play beyond the role players they are is hard. I think caron and odom could step it up another notch. Otherwise, you can't expect players like Mihm to have monster nights all the time or catch every pass. I think that the Laker players are trying to help out, but only so much can be expected from say a jumaine jones.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kobe 8 Ball:</div><div class="quote_post">
Give Kobe McInnis and he would be shooting 45%, give him Cassell..same story.
Lakers.</div>

First off, well I'm talking about the current Lakers, and with the current Lakers Kobe is ballhogging a lot.

Secondly if Kobe did have McInnis or Cassell, he wouldn't have the same stat line. His apg would drop and his scoring would drop a bit, just from not having the ball in his hands every play.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Whoa, hold your fire. First off, Kobe is not the PG. Otherwise, he'd be playing defense against Gilbert Arenas, Steve Nash and Steve Francis. Offensively, you don't see the PG doing what Kobe does</div>
He's not the PG on defense, he's the PG on offense though because Chucky isn't told to do anything more than bring the ball up the court.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tim Duncan - 22% of the Spurs' shot attempts
Kevin Garnett - 22%
LeBron James - 24%
Allen Iverson - 26%
Ray Allen - 24%
Tracy McGrady - 24%
Kobe Bryant - 27%

Now, with the exception of Allen Iverson, each of these players have a better supporting cast than that of the Lakers. You can argue that Kobe is shooting poorly, but that gets into another debate and has absolutely nothing to do with how many shots he takes, because, with the poor supporting cast...Kobe still leads every player listed in assists (tied with Iverson).</div>
Percentage of team shots isn't really that relevant a stat.
The thing that would make someone call a player a ball hog wouldn't neccesarily be just how many shots they take alone, but how long they have the ball in their hands. Iverson is a ball hog, no one disputes that [well some do], yea he's surrounded by guys who "can't" create, but that was deliberate [by the managament] because he didn't play well with any other player who needed the ball in their hands. He makes others spectators.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, let's take the Christmas game for example. I know everyone watched it...so what happened in the first quarter? Kobe was hot. He hit 4 threes and scored 15 points (if I remember right). The Lakers looked like gold in the first quarter. In the second? In the third? They had the lead for all three quarters, actually. When Kobe stopped scoring, the Lakers would lose ground. This is obvious in overtime...when Lamar Odom scored all 8 points, but the Lakers still lost.</div>
Not really a good example, was it because Odom scored instead of Kobe that Miami's offense was flowing better, or that the Lakers had some defensive lapses?


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's talk about turnovers. Kobe had nine yesterday against the Heat. One was off a misdirected pass to Chris Mihm, who was late getting to the pass after Kobe drew Shaq towards the perimeter. One was a beautifully thrown pass to an open Mihm for a dunk, but Chris fumbled the ball and lost it out of bounds. Another one? This time, a pass that seemed to hit Mihm in the chest before it was snatched and stolen. The best thing about Shaq was his presence and...soft hands. Shaq could catch half-court oops with one hand. However, Mihm's hands are made of stone...thus causing three turnovers just off him yesterday. I have the tape...it's there. I'd name off the others, two were off bad decisions by Kobe (getting caught in mid-air) and there were a couple of others that were good passes, but were fumbled as well. Why trust Mihm when he can't hang onto the ball? Lack of trust...for Kobe...but maybe there's obvious reason behind it.</div>
How many big men have hands like Shaq, one thing that seperates very good big men from average ones is their hands in addition to skill. Mihm dropping passes isn't an isolated situation, their's many other big men in the league who do that too, if you're going to pass to him and he keeps turning it over, then it's a 50-50 situation, you should know not to pass to the guy who can't catch, and I guess the guy who can't catch should soak his hands in lotion more .

Mihm is not the only other player on the Lakers.

I don't think every single guy on the team has bad hands, and I've never heard that complaint about Mihm before though. Maybe he has a hand injury, it used to happen with Brendan Haywood because he had a few broken or sprained finger which were taped up. Also some of the turnovers off a fumbled pass goes to the reciever as opposed to the passer.

I just don't like these kind of excuses, so the Lakers got every player in the league who fumbles passes, no other player in the league has teammates that fumbles passes? It's just not valid because their's tons of other players who do the same thing, fumble passes happen on every team, every team has their Mr.Rock hands, for that to be an excuse for turnovers is pretty weak because then every players in the league should have a decrease in turnovers per game too.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We'll talk coaching. Rudy T is going to run this offense through Kobe. That's the obvious choice...any coach in the league would do that with this team. Let's think back to Rudy's days in Houston...what was a key to the Rockets' success (other than the MDE)? That's right...other than Hakeem, it was the three. "Rudy Three" had Sam Cassell, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, and Robert Horry all hitting from the arc...and it was so good, but so nasty...that they took home two consecutive championships because of it. What does this have to do with Kobe being a "ballhog" then? Well...Kobe has to create for himself as well as other teammates...because we all know that Atkins isn't doing his job as a PG. When Kobe sees Jumaine Jones open, or Brian Cook open...it's an automatic three for Rudy...and he'll call it in the corner every time. If they miss, it's Kobe's fault. If Kobe keeps the ball, he's going to follow orders and hit the three, or drive and draw the foul. In other words, the Lakers are trying to live by the three...and so far, the only team that can do that is the Sonics...not Los Angeles...and taking a forced three pointer looks much worse than taking a mid-range jumper. Yet another reason to call Kobe a ballhog.</div>
Cassell? He wasn't even that good a three point shooter early in his career, and still isn't that great, now that's not really relevant. Anyways, Rudy also coached the Houston team with Francis and Mobley on it, he's a coach that doesn't mind the three, but I won't say lives and dies by it. Jim O'Brien likes the three, he'll allow you to take them, but doesn't say go out there and take three's.

The Lakers are taking a lot of three's, but they have a lot of three point shooters in comparison to previous seasons, Odom is taking less three's in comparison to his shot attempts than previous years though. The increase in three attempts is probably due a lot to having Chucky Atkins and Jumaine Jones on your team in addition to Cook's new found range. They're all pretty good three point shooters, and the Lakers are shooting what 35%, but they do take too many, but with the personell on the team it's not surprising.

I don't think Rudy would say if this play happens you must take the three, no one says that, but the Lakers have a lot of players who are three point shooters, and with the way the team plays with Kobe and having a lot of Isolations, other perimeter players are supposed to spread out to the corners or wing in order to not crowd the lane. If you look at Philly, they take a lot of three's too, but they don't have as many three point shooters.

I do question the teams offensive sets, but we have Jalen Rose on the Raptors, and I don't know if it's just an over-confidence thing, but he takes a lot of bad shots, and constantly plays out of the offense, it's like he always thinks it's going in.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How about Kobe off the ball? I dare someone...anyone...to come in here and give me a few times where Odom has held the ball and found Kobe cutting for a dunk. Not on a fast break...but any other time. How about Atkins? How many assists are thrown in Kobe's direction? None. When Shaq was in purple and gold, how many passes were connected from him to Kobe? More than those from Mihm to Kobe. Funny thing is, Kobe is leading this team in assists by a far margin...and he's not even the PG. He's the best defender, the best scorer, the best passer, the best playmaker...he's the backbone of this Laker squad who are still a couple of games above .500 in the Western Conference, and are the 7th seed in the playoffs. He's 5th in assists, leading all SG's with the exception of Wade (who was a PG for the first 10 games or so)...he's being picked apart by how many turnovers he has, with more than 80% of them coming from either bad passes or good passes...but he's a ballhog.</div>
...but how many times a game is Odom actually put into the position to be a playmaker? Even Chucky as the PG, if they aren't put into positions to be playmakers, they aren't going to be getting many assists. Chucky is not great PG, just average, but even on the Celtics he was able to average 5 assists a game, if you watched him last year, he's created shots for others once in a while, and had some drives and dishes, but he's not in the position this season, you can't blame a guy for not getting assists or creating players when he isn't being given the ball to do so.

Kobe get's assisted on 27% of his made FG's. In comparison, Dwyane Wade on 28%, Iverson on 21%. Now, Wade isn't a great shooter, and also doesn't like settling for jumpshots, so if you pass him the ball, he'll fake and drive as opposed to shooting a jumper. Last season he got assisted more because he took more three's, and Odom and Rafer used to hit him for more shots hooks/layups than Shaq or Damon Jones would. Iverson does his scoring by creating for himself, sometimes he'll have someone give him a pass where he shoots a three or something, but that's about it.

<u>Percentage of made FG's assisted: Last season</u>
Paul Pierce - 51%
Tmac - 50%
Kobe - 47%
Vince - 46%
Iverson - 38%


Now you look at Paul Pierce, his PG's were Mike James and Chucky Atkins, and then their would be Ricky Davis as the other person to create, but didn't get much of that duty.
Tmac had Tryonn Lue and Rod Stickland for a while before Rod went to the Raps.
Vince had Jalen Rose playing PG, and I guess Milt Palacio? Rod Strickland came later in the year, but didn't play enough games or minutes to have an effect.
Iverson had Eric Snow.

Now looking at that, even players with lesser teammates to create shots were getting assisted more than Kobe is this season. Look at Pierce and Tmac, even they were assisted on more than half their FG's made, and had Chucky and <u>Lue</u> as PG's. Their's no way Kobe couldn't do the same thing, yes even with this "crappy" team, except he'll drop about 1.5-2 assists and one turnover a game, but it will be better for him. Kobe isn't going to get assisted when no one else is doing the playmaking duties, major playmakers don't get assisted much, their assisted FG's would be you giving them a pick to free them up. Kobe is playing the role of a PG, playmaking PG's don't get assisted much.

Kobe isn't playing the role of a good playmaker, but is THE playmaker, which is no neccesary on the team, but is the situation anyways.

Only 54% of Kobe's turnovers are a result of bad passes, the rest are offensive fouls 13%, and ball handling mishaps. So about 2.4 bad passes a game, 1.4 ball handling mishaps, and 0.6 offensive fouls.

If you're efficient in having the ball a lot, you won't be criticized for it, but Kobe isn't close to being efficient right now, and he's doing things that aren't neccesary, or overdoing his role as a playmaker. If that's what the team plan is then good luck!



Talking about KG, his supporting cast hasn't always been Cassell, Spree etc, it just seems like some are talking about him like he's always had these guys. His team has always been above average for the most part a 50+ win team, but till last season his team hasn't been anything special. His first round matchups the past few seasons have been:

99-00 - Portland [the really good Portland] vs [KG, TB, Wally]
00-01 - San Antonio vs [KG, TB, Wally]
01-02 - Dallas vs [KG, Wally, Billups]
02-03 - Lakers vs [KG and Hudson]

Now let's look at this in the light, Portland and Dallas were stacked, and San Antonio was the #1 seed that year which was unfortunate for the Twolves. Those teams vs KG and one other guy was basically the matchups, Wally wasn't anything special till 01-02, in the other years he was nothing more than a better version of Kyle Korver.

Just in watching KG though, you can't say he's a ball hog, he doesn't dominate the ball, he'll make the extra pass, and he doesn't really play out of the offense.

 

First off, it's all about winning. Kobe will NEVER get respected unless he wins, and that's a fact. Pierce and the Celtics, McGrady and the Raptors/Magic...you didn't see any of them win a ring. Kobe will have to at the very least take the Lakers into the WCF's to get any respect, and that's something he'll be faced with for his whole career.

Plus, it still makes a difference when you have teammates that know each other well enough to play together. And when you're doing nearly EVERYTHING for your team...and on a bad foot...and you're being watched constantly by everyone, like a microscope hovering over your head...it's tough to succeed...especially past everyone's expectations.

 

Not that I'm defending Kobe for saying this cause I've been one of his toughest critics while being a Kobe fan, but at least one, if not two TO's a game for Kobe have been because of Mihm. Every single Laker game I watch I see Mihm fumbling a nice pass away. Last game against Miami, this happened three or four times. He obviously does make a lot of dumb decisions with the ball, but I've noticed Mihm has screwed Kobe over A LOT in that department.

 

Calling Kobe Bryant a ballhog is accurate. But it's not a bad thing. Without Kobe scoring 30 a night, the Lakers mine as well be called the Bobcats. At the same time, Bryant is also the play maker that makes the team better. Chucky Atkins should be coming off the bench, but LA has no one better to fill the PG spot. Therefore, Kobe is forced to play the role of 2 and 1 position.

Our supporting cast is empty. Outside of Lamar Odom, Kobe has no one that's reliable and consistent to help log in the points. Until Vlade, yes Vlade Divac, returns, Odom and Bryant will be the only players getting double figures every night. Vlade can put in 10-14 points a night if he gets good minutes.

So, anyone who is going to knock Kobe for getting 30 a game and taking a lot of shots are idiots. What do you expect when he's the franchise player, and has no supporting cast.

Bryant is doing his best to carry the Lake-show on his back, so quit calling him this and that. I understand if you dont like him, and if you do stay away from talking about him cause unless you have some good points and facts to back it up then your just making yourself look stupid.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting kobe_dynasty:</div><div class="quote_post">Calling Kobe Bryant a ballhog is accurate. But it's not a bad thing. Without Kobe scoring 30 a night, the Lakers mine as well be called the Bobcats. At the same time, Bryant is also the play maker that makes the team better. Chucky Atkins should be coming off the bench, but LA has no one better to fill the PG spot. Therefore, Kobe is forced to play the role of 2 and 1 position.

Our supporting cast is empty. Outside of Lamar Odom, Kobe has no one that's reliable and consistent to help log in the points. Until Vlade, yes Vlade Divac, returns, Odom and Bryant will be the only players getting double figures every night. Vlade can put in 10-14 points a night if he gets good minutes.

So, anyone who is going to knock Kobe for getting 30 a game and taking a lot of shots are idiots. What do you expect when he's the franchise player, and has no supporting cast.

Bryant is doing his best to carry the Lake-show on his back, so quit calling him this and that. I understand if you dont like him, and if you do stay away from talking about him cause unless you have some good points and facts to back it up then your just making yourself look stupid.</div>

I agree in this instance Kobe being a ball hog isn't necessarily a bad thing. IMO if he had a TRUE pg (kidd, nash) instead of a spot up shooter pg (chucky) he could actually play off the ball and wouldn't really NEED the ball in his hands. The only thing Chucky can really do is shoot, he doesn't have the court vision, or the skills to actually be a good passer. For example, Last year with GP, Kobe didn't really have the need to dominate the ball.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kobe 8 Ball:</div><div class="quote_post">Yea..oh so crappy..thats why we are still a playoff team..in the west..last time I checked, that means you have something...really..grow up



It's great to be hated, it makes us know that we made it...


All we need is a pg and we would have a great supporting cast...any team would want Odom and Caron.


Like I said..its great to be hated, it makes us know that we made it...



</div>

Are you really that happy about the Lakers being a playoff team? Maybe a 7th or 8th seed.

Why were the lakers championship runs over? I'm sorry but you keep shaq and Kobe on the same team....Good players will come. Yes the Payton-Malone thing didn't work out, but come on SHAQ and KOBE??? Nothing is over...You pay shaq that money because he is the most dominate player...EVER! Even when he is hurt, he is still dominate. I realize that as a lakers fan you need to convince yourself that the Lakers orginization did the right thing....yup...sure...

Why would a PG want to play with the Lakers? Everyone hates Kobe! He betrayed the trust of his teammate...no one will ever forget that. "But officer, Shaq has paid his women millions of dollars to keep their mouths shut, why can't i?" SOLD OUT!!!

***Odom hates Kobe...he wants to leave. I think his days are numbered.

The only way Kobe can earn the respect he "deserves" is to make the Lakers a championship team again. I just don't see that happening anytime soon.
Its all good...i hated the bulls too

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">This is exactly the post I was waiting for.

So, Kevin Garnett finally made it past the first round of the playoffs last season. I've never heard anyone call him a ball hog.

Also, the greatest ever (Jordan) didn't win an MVP or a championship until 1990...yet he was scoring 37 PPG and averaging 5.6 assists per game in those first 6 seasons...but never, ever a ball hog.

Now, about reputation...maybe it has something to do with it, but I don't think that's very fair, either...so maybe those that assume he's a ball hog should take a seat and re-think their statements before jumping to conclusions.</div>

Don't you just love stats? I do!

The reason why no one thought Jordan was a ball hog:

Career FGP: .497

Also, he only had an average of 37.1 PPG once, and that was in 1986-1987
His shooting percentage that year was .482 (if you shoot like this, you are not a ball hog---you are efficient)


Now lets look at Kobe

Here is his career FGP:

.454 (not too bad by today's standards)

Here is his 2004 FGP:

.393 (ouch that sucks....guess he might be missing the big daddy?)
***Yes Kobe needs someone creating for him. Imagine if Kobe had Steve Nash? Ohh wait...Steve would never want to play with him, sorry.

Also, maybe I'm biased...but did you see Kobe in the Finals this year? He was such the ball hog it wasn't even funny...and he sucked too!
**This was his FGP for the 2003-2004 playoffs: .413 ohh...and he also had a career high 61 turnovers ;( Ballhog? YES

***I am not saying that detroits D did not have anything to do with this.

<font color="Red"><font size="1">Please do not double-post. There's an edit button just for that reason.

-Brandon</font></font>

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">This is exactly the post I was waiting for.

So, Kevin Garnett finally made it past the first round of the playoffs last season. I've never heard anyone call him a ball hog.

Also, the greatest ever (Jordan) didn't win an MVP or a championship until 1990...yet he was scoring 37 PPG and averaging 5.6 assists per game in those first 6 seasons...but never, ever a ball hog.

Now, about reputation...maybe it has something to do with it, but I don't think that's very fair, either...so maybe those that assume he's a ball hog should take a seat and re-think their statements before jumping to conclusions.</div>

Don't you just love stats? I do!

The reason why no one thought Jordan was a ball hog:

Career FGP: .497

Also, he only had an average of 37.1 PPG once, and that was in 1986-1987
His shooting percentage that year was .482 (if you shoot like this, you are not a ball hog---you are efficient)


Now lets look at Kobe

Here is his career FGP:

.454 (not too bad by today's standards)

Here is his 2004 FGP:

.393 (ouch that sucks....guess he might be missing the big daddy?)
***Yes Kobe needs someone creating for him. Imagine if Kobe had Steve Nash? Ohh wait...Steve would never want to play with him, sorry.

Also, maybe I'm biased...but did you see Kobe in the Finals this year? He was such the ball hog it wasn't even funny...and he sucked too!
**This was his FGP for the 2003-2004 playoffs: .413 ohh...and he also had a career high 61 turnovers ;( Ballhog? YES

***I am not saying that detroits D did not have anything to do with this.

 

So...phunky420...do you play basketball? What do you do when you have a triangle offense with two scoring threats and shooting SF's and PF's?

You close the passing lanes between the two threats.

And then you pick the one most likely to penetrate and break the barrier, and you double-team him. Now...back to my question. Do you play basketball? If you do, then you know that you would be ripped off the court and sitting the bench if you would try and throw a pass through your defenders (Rip and an excellent defender, Tayshaun), as well as a roaming Rasheed Wallace...who didn't have to worry about an injured Malone in that series. Oh, let's make matters worse by including Ben Wallace, who actually is the top ball thief in the paint and is much quicker than Shaq.

So what happens if Kobe continually throws passes inside to Shaq? A bounce pass will get intercepted by Rasheed...and you're being doubled, so you can't throw a chest pass...and a lob will be picked out of the air by Big Ben. You can't penetrate, or you'll turn the ball over because, ooh yeah, you draw Sheed and then you're triple teamed. Payton is on the other side of the court...because Billups has him locked down (4 PPG in the Finals)...Devean George is sleeping on the perimeter and NEVER moves...

So what do you do, phunky? Please...post your explanation. If you try to pass to Shaq regardless, you get criticized for not penetrating and not passing well. If you penetrate first, you get the ball ripped and you get criticized for not being able to split the double...which is tough against Rip and Tay, I don't care who you are. If you force up shots, you get criticized for being a ball hog.

Let me ask you this: in Game 2, what happened near the end, with Luke Walton in the game? All of the attention was shifted to him because he is a good passer, but not a scoring threat. What does that mean? Unlike GP, Walton could do something with the ball, therefore...getting the Pistons' attention and pulling defenders away from Kobe Bryant...as well as Shaq. Walton also moved without the ball...and that was one vital aspect of the win in Game 2. Ball movement proves to be effective, especially when the defense relies on a double team, when the offense can move off the ball. It worked...and the Lakers won Game 2.

So, now you're Kobe. What do you do? Pass? Shoot? Penetrate? Or let Shaq bring the ball upcourt, since he wanted it so bad?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Real Deal:</div><div class="quote_post">Everyone...look...you may believe that Kobe did, that's okay...but it was the fact that Shaq turned down the offer (which was less money) and he even admitted this. It may seem as if Kobe ran him out, but Shaq wouldn't leave because of another player...and if he did, that's just plain ignorance.</div>
Are you sure about that? IMO, Kobe silently dismantled the Lakers.

Before the game on Christmas Day they were talking about what happened during the offseason (all the drama surrounding Laker land). First, Phil Jackson called Kobe 'uncoachable' which I believe then led to his retirement. Shaq then said he won't return if Phil doesn't come back. That led to Shaq being traded, and Kobe magically signed an extension.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe may be "the man" right now in Los Angeles, but Buss and Kupchak wouldn't give up a $30 million player just because he doesn't get along with Kobe. </div>
The point is, Kobe and Shaq both have huge egos, and Buss/Kupchak would have lost one franchise player whether they wanted to or not. Ever since the Lakers fell shorthanded to winning a title everyone knew that the summer of '04 was going to be a very busy one for LA. Kobe/Shaq have hated eachother for a very long time, and they can only play so well on the court for so long. We saw them collapse, and knew they could never play on the same team again.

Management chose Kobe, but he put them between a rock and a hard place. If Shaq was still in LA, he should be option number 1, and Kobe just can't face that. Big men dominate in this league, and Kobe's learning the hard way that he's not the Mr. Invincible that everyone makes him out to be.

In the end things always turn out for the best. Shaq is leading the east and they are now title contenders. He has <font color="Red">Flash </font> to help him out, and everyones getting along.

As for LA... well, I guess you could say Kobe's getting what he asked for. His own team. Now just let the invincible one take over.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you sure about that? IMO, Kobe silently dismantled the Lakers.

Before the game on Christmas Day they were talking about what happened during the offseason (all the drama surrounding Laker land). First, Phil Jackson called Kobe 'uncoachable' which I believe then led to his retirement. Shaq then said he won't return if Phil doesn't come back. That led to Shaq being traded, and Kobe magically signed an extension.

The point is, Kobe and Shaq both have huge egos, and Buss/Kupchak would have lost one franchise player whether they wanted to or not. Ever since the Lakers fell shorthanded to winning a title everyone knew that the summer of '04 was going to be a very busy one for LA. Kobe/Shaq have hated eachother for a very long time, and they can only play so well on the court for so long. We saw them collapse, and knew they could never play on the same team again.

Management chose Kobe, but he put them between a rock and a hard place. If Shaq was still in LA, he should be option number 1, and Kobe just can't face that. Big men dominate in this league, and Kobe's learning the hard way that he's not the Mr. Invincible that everyone makes him out to be.

In the end things always turn out for the best. Shaq is leading the east and they are now title contenders. He has <font color="Red">Flash </font> to help him out, and everyones getting along.

As for LA... well, I guess you could say Kobe's getting what he asked for. His own team. Now just let the invincible one take over. </div>
But you're forgetting one small thing: no single player has EVER won a championship single-handedly. No player is invincible.

Now, if Shaq would turn the Hawks into an Eastern threat, then I would be a believer...but he went to the Heat with yet ANOTHER guard that has potential. If it wasn't for Penny's injury, he would still be a good SG...because even after Shaq departed, Hardaway's numbers were All-Star stats...but his injury after his third season without O'Neal (I believe it was his third without him) put him on the shelf for good. Shaq found Kobe...won three titles...but it took Shaq and Kobe BOTH to win. Otherwise, Shaq would've won championships with Jones and Van Exel while Bryant was sitting the bench.

Shaq left and found Wade...who was very, very close to winning the ROY last season (that is, if they had given the award out AFTER the playoffs were over).

Kobe/Shaq, Jordan/Pippen, Magic/Kareem, Hakeem/Drexler, Duncan/Robinson, Ben/Sheed/Tay/Rip/Billups (lol)...never, ever, has a single player dominated the ball and took his team to the championships by himself.

By the way, Ice...about Kobe "dismantling the Lakers"...didn't Shaq ask Phil to trade off Kobe for Penny a few years back? Also, wasn't there word of a Kobe/Marion & Kidd trade that Shaq had a part in as well? Shaq clearly asked for more money in previous years...he's been wanting more money since I can remember. Also, I don't think it bothered Kobe to have the ball as much as it did Shaq...becasue there was a quote...someone help me on this one...where Shaq said something along the lines of, "Shaq isn't Shaq when he's scoring 20 PPG." It was about last season...when Malone and Payton joined LA and both Kobe and Shaq's PPG dropped by around 6 points.

I think Shaq wanted the attention. I think he wanted the money. And when he didn't get his HUGE extension, and when Kobe was looking great even before his prime (which he has yet to hit), Shaq took a quick exit and pointed to Phil, who...by the way...had already announced that he was thinking of retirement long before the feud started boiling in LA.

In fact, it was Tex Winter, the real man behind the triangle, that said that Shaq was the one guy that was tough to coach, if anyone else. Plus, I also remember the many, many games that Jordan and Phil Jackson would yell at each other...back and forth...and the one time Phil told a Chicago reporter that Jordan was a challenge to coach...but then came six rings.

Kobe and Shaq...Phil...3 rings. It wasn't the coaching aspect of it. Phil was more of an "ego management specialist" for Shaq and Kobe...while Winter was the mastermind of the triangle. And don't forget, the triangle was applied for Jordan in Chicago...not Luc Longley or Will Perdue. I believe when the Lakers lost their last two seasons, there were some changes due for the team, and I don't think Shaq liked the direction that the team wanted to go...as far as money goes, as far as a new style of offense goes...etc. Without Phil, Shaq knew the Lakers would change the triangle to suit their younger and potentially great player, and...before Shaq could be the second option and lose the responsibility of making Kobe "a great player" like Phil did MJ, he left as well.

I believe that's exactly what happened. The media can believe whatever puts money in their pocket...that's what they are paid to do.