The "I Miss OB" Thread The more I whatch Doc Rivers the more it makes me think how lucky we were to have Jim Obrien as coach. Some people, no doubt blind with bitterness that he spurned the team and impatiently resigned, like to rag on him and the only thing they can come up with is the vague accusation that he "didn't develope rookies". The fact is he didnt HAVE a half decent rookie in his time as Celtics coach. He was right not to play Kedrick Brown and Joe Forte more because they didn't do anything. Joe Johnson played well and as a result OB gave him some starting time until he was traded. Marcus Banks and Kendrick Perkins were pretty much the only other rookies under him and they were both jokes and shouldnt even have gotten as many minutes as they got. Remember it was under Jim Obriens whatch the Celtics made the eastern conference finals a year after not making the playoffs and made the GREATEST COMEBACK IN NBA PLAYOFF HISTORY along the way (i never get tired of saying that ) It was also under Obrien that Pierce busted out for his best seasons. I liked that OB was a textbook stand-up guy. A straight shooter who told you what is and always took responsibility. He was like Terry Francona with a spine. Rivers is none of those things. i dont liike the things he says in conferences and interviews at all (he never sounded terribly on the level when he was a broadcaster either now that i think of it). I think the biggest difference between them as that OB was familiar with this funny concept called "defense"! remember defense??? I know all the writers and critics would rather see their team score 110 points a game than win 60 games a year. It's all you read about. Suddenly entertainment value is more important than victories. Well Ill tell you what I think is entertaining and thats a WINNING team!! Those freaks are gonna have to getused to the fact that in TODAYS league DEFENSE is what wins. The reason OBs teams win is because if his guys don't show a committment to defense than they sit on the bench. Oh sure, Doc'l bench ya if you dont run and he TAlKS about defense but all I ever hear him say about it is the word "DEFENSE"!!! I thought he was supposed be a defensive minded guy. Isn't that what his orlando teams were supposed to be good at? what the heck happened?? All Doc Rivers seems to care about now is the fast break and keeping his best players on the bench about 4 hours longer than he should when the 4th quarter starts
Jim O'Brien is not a good coach. The only thing that he was good for was his assanine rotating gimmick defense, and that wasn't even his defense, it was Dick Harter's. You are obviously a product of the Celtics overachieving a couple years back. To think that there is somebody out there that actually misses that guy is crazy. First of all, OB didn't quit because he disagreed with Ainge. No, he did it because he wanted to make sure that he got another coaching job while he still looked like he was a good coach. I don't know if you watched a single game last season, but it was ugly. Teams figured out the team defense and guys were taking advantage every night. Through all that, there was never any adjustment made by your hero. It was obvious that Ainge had a different vision than him, and he refused to even give it a chance. He would rather bail out on his team to assure himself a job in the future. As much as you'd like to preach defense upon us, I think a team needs just a little focus on offense at least. I can't respect a coach that isn't even competant enough to come up with one single offensive play. He had 2 guys accounting for over half of the offense. Man, I'm sick of saying these things over and over again. Yeah, the team made the Eastern Conference Finals. So what? Are you happy with that, or do you want more? I want a Championship, and that team wasn't winning one. Sorry. It took everything that team had (and a whole lot of good luck) just to make it half way there. If that's the team you want, fine. I respect your opinion, but I have the right to disagree. I'm not an impatient person by any means, so I can live with a promising core of young players and the potential to get better. I'll give Danny and Doc a little more time to prove themselves. It really hasn't been that long. Championships don't happen overnight, you need to understand that.
HEY!! I didn't say he's my "HERO"!!! I just said he's a good to great coach (shouldve won coach of the year in 02). dont believe me? when he was last coaching the celtics they were on a 5 game win streak and looking ready to turn their season around. Of course then he was forced into resignation to tell the truth because ainge wanted to find his own guy and the team tailspun. Anyone who doesn't know that Jim Obrien is a greaat coach doesnt know basketball plain and simple. I'm not saying you don't I'm just asking if you would make another post and try to explain why OB wasnt a good coach because I dont think the one you just made does a good enough job.
LOL. I don't miss OB and there's alot more to it than just him not developing rookies, but since the reasons for me bashing have been covered ad-nauseum, I won't go into them again. How's Philly doing? Hmm.....basically same (poor) record. We were never getting farther than we did with the gimmicky OB-3Ball and I'll take whereever the C's go from here over having to watch the assinine coaching antics/decisions of OB again.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">HEY!! I didn't say he's my "HERO"!!! I just said he's a good to great coach (shouldve won coach of the year in 02). dont believe me? when he was last coaching the celtics they were on a 5 game win streak and looking ready to turn their season around. Of course then he was forced into resignation to tell the truth because ainge wanted to find his own guy and the team tailspun. Anyone who doesn't know that Jim Obrien is a greaat coach doesnt know basketball plain and simple. I'm not saying you don't I'm just asking if you would make another post and try to explain why OB wasnt a good coach because I dont think the one you just made does a good enough job.</div> Since nobody says it better than hags does, I dug up this post by him from October....<div class="quote_poster">Quoting hagrid:</div><div class="quote_post">There's more to OB than win/losses with the C's. People put him up on a pedestal because the team got the the ECF under him, after struggling the years before. The problem is, the coaching wasn't his. The defensive presence that the team developed was the brainchild of Dick Harter. OB's contribution: Fronting the post, which even Harter disagreed with, as a fundamental flaw. The rest of it was just extreme conditioning so they could play defense all game and an above average press, which forced turnouvers. The offense, was 2 guys: AW and PP. OB's idea of coaching was to tell those 2 guys they should be looking to score on every possession and let them account for over 50% of the teams offense over his coaching tenure. Come the playoffs, that offensive strategy was shown for what it was and the Nets embarrassed the C's the second year. Because none of the surrounding players were developed, the team had no chance in the larger scope of things. If you had to endure watching the games, you would have seen constant fundamental lackings that were never corrected. Over pursuit, no weak side help, FRONTING THE POST (a personal peeve of mine), bad fouling, over handling the ball, etc, etc. In post game interviews, he wasn't nearly as eliquent and intelligent as he probably was at the camp/clinic you attended. His reasoning was usually flawed for the decisions he was called on by the press. His player rotations and situational decision making were often the source of confoundment and migraines among the Celtic Nation. They rarely made sense. Add to all that, the trades and drafts that happened during his tenure, which he asked for, which Wallace should have known better than to pull the trigger on, which usually ended up mortgaging the future. (aka: JJ et al for Rogers and Delk) While we're talking about drafts, lets also note OB's complete and total failure to develop young players, unless forced to by injury (aka:Bremmer). His devotion to the "veterans" were often a source of frustration in the aformentioned player rotations, etc.</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, OB didn't quit because he disagreed with Ainge. No, he did it because he wanted to make sure that he got another coaching job while he still looked like he was a good coach.</div> According to my sources on the team (and believe me, I hate myself for typing that), what happened was that OB went to Ainge and said that he was going to resign at the end of the season because it was clear that he and Danny couldn't get on the same page. Danny said if your gonna go, go now and don't be a distraction (which was the right call). But I would like to agree with Olskool on the fact that while everyone rips OB for not developing players, its not like Jerome Moiso, Kedrick Brown or Joe Forte are playing huge minutes for anyone else (and keep in mind, most of those drafts were Chris Wallace's, not OB's), Kendrick only sees minutes when everyones is hurt or in foul trouble and Doc has so much confidence in Marcus that he lost his job to Delonte West after one practice.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">Since nobody says it better than hags does, I dug up this post by him from October.... </div> this arguement is rather dubious "In post game interviews, he wasn't nearly as eliquent and intelligent as he probably was at the camp/clinic you attended. His reasoning was usually flawed for the decisions he was called on by the press." be careful when stating clear falllacies like this as it throws credibility into question. Anyways even if you didnt like what O'Brien brought to the table, you HAVE to admit RIGHT NOW that he was better than Doc Retard could ever be. I hate just looking at Doc Rivers on the sideline and wondering what the hell he's thinking when he makes his slapsticular comicly bafoonish subs or lack thereof. Its like looking into the vacant eyes of a dog and wondering the same thing but you can't know because he doesnt have the brain capacity to form anything ressembling a rational thought. He just sits there and waits for you to fill his dish with foul smelling slime-covered chunks and take him out for a walk so he can eat his own crap and sniff any buttcheeks his nostrils can reach. the only difference?? My dog is lovable, adorable and most importantly: NOT THE COACH OF MY BASKETBALL TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyways even if you didnt like what O'Brien brought to the table, you HAVE to admit RIGHT NOW that he was better than Doc Retard could ever be. I hate just looking at Doc Rivers on the sideline and wondering what the hell he's thinking when he makes his slapsticular comicly bafoonish subs or lack thereof. </div> 1. Just because it fits your opinion, doesn't mean we "HAVE" to think anything. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">wondering what the hell he's thinking when he makes his slapsticular comicly bafoonish subs or lack thereof.</div> 2. I'm almost appalled to think you'd even try to take that avenue because Doc's substitution pattern is not only more realistic than OB's wonderous 7 player(8 on a good night), and 5 of them were 3pt shooters rotation, but Doc's rotation and substitutions actually makes sense most of the time. Doc also backs up his moves with actual reasons when asked about it, rather than pulling an OB and using the blanket excuse "I felt it was the right move at the time". <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">be careful when stating clear falllacies like this as it throws credibility into question.</div> 3. "clear fallacies"? Really....do try to explain.
Clear fallacies like saying the holocaust was a hoax, or that sun revolves around the earth or that Jim Obrien wasnt elloquent or intellegent in press conferences. same thing. understand?? seriously though. With Doc, every time the 4th quarter starts youre thinking "put in Pierce" a minute goes by....a foul "put Pierce back in"...more time....the other team starts to pull away..."whens he gonna put Pierce back in"....a timeout..."now hes gonna put in pierce"....more time goes by....another foul....."put pierce in".....more time....."now put pierce back in"...game starting to get out of hand "PUT PIERCE BACK IN PLEEEEEASE!!!!!!!" its freakin RIDICULOUS!!!! Doc Rivers subs make about as much sense as grady Little.
I guess we'll leave that to individual interpretation oldskool. I believe the man was purposely aloof and/or off point 90% of the time I had to listen to him in post game interviews. Just because someone has good diction and speaks in complete sentances, doesn't mean that what they have to say on a subject is necessarily "intelligent". So I suppose I'll give you the eloquent part as that also has less to do with knowledge on the subject, but rather it's presentation. I guess we can call OB a good public speaker, even if what he was saying is mostly BS/JUNK. Anyways, this is alot like the Walker situation. I have, at some level, to appreciate what he did while he was here for the team, but am glad he's gone for the betterment of the team as a whole.
you mean like what RIVERS SAYD IS JUNK?BS??????? BS!!!!!!!!! BS!!!!!!!! nothing OB said was ever BS! He spoke iNTELLIGENTLY!! how can u not see that!! yes he was a good public speaker but more than that the htings he said were true and meaningful. He just knew his basketball and expected the most of his team. Everything you just said about him is false. It's almost as if--its like u never saw him speak. DID YOU??? did you ever whatch ONE POSTGGAME INTERVIEW???? I FEEL LIKE IM TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!!!!!!! the fact is whether or not u appreciate what he did while he was here, his being gone is a detrement and is not for the betterment of the team
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's almost as if--its like u never saw him speak. DID YOU??? did you ever whatch ONE POSTGGAME INTERVIEW???? I FEEL LIKE IM TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!!!!!!! </div> Of course I've never seen a post game interview... I love spending my time discussing things I know nothing about. (In case you've just taken your crazy pills, that was sarcasm) I had a freind, who unfortunately doesn't live in Boston anymore share the post game press conferences/interviews with me the next day, as LP doesn't generally carry them. I'm going to cut this conversation off now, since given the fact that you're referring to the Celtics Coach as "Doc Retard", I'll assume that nothing said here is going to sway you one way or the other, as nothing you share with me on OB will change mine. I'm glad he's gone and feel the team's better for it. You obviously feel differently and thats fine.
First of all, olskool. I hope you don't have any kids because you'd expect a newborn to be doing calculus 5 minutes after birth. You have no patience. You refuse to think logically because it gives you a reason to complain. Don't get me wrong - I love to complain. I have no problem with you feeling the way you do, and like hagrid said nothing we say will change your mind. But just in case an impressionable outsider may read this, I'm still going to speak on the issue. Doc Rivers hasn't earned the right to be praised or complained about in Boston yet. The roster he is working with isn't one that's built for immediate success. The season hasn't even reached the half-way point. If you feel it's imperitive to complain about somebody, than the only one you can turn to is Ainge. Doc Rivers is using rotations that force him into playing unreliable young players, while he tries to find a balance between winning games and developing rookies. That's not an easy task he's trying to complete. Every coach wants to win now, but when Doc was hired it was made clear to him that the development part was just as important. That's why you see rotations like you mentioned, he's doing the job that was asked of him to the best of his ability. Maybe you think it would be better if he shortened the rotation to 7 guys. Pierce, Davis, Blount, and Payton would be playing 38+ minutes. Maybe that's what you want? I'll tell you that we're going nowhere with that approach. Sure, we might win more games this year, and maybe even be slighty better than mediocre. But the future of the team suffers greatly in that scenario. I know why you loved O'Brien, he coached every game as if it were game 7 of the Finals. He was all about the present, and until last year, nobody in the front office had the mental capacity to realize that it was a bad thing. He basically had full control over the team, and he used it to trade away youth and potential for guys that would fit into Harter's wild and crazy rotating defense. He refused to play rookies unless he had to. On the rare occasion that he did play a rookie, they were pulled after making any one mistake. You don't know whether or not some of those young guys confidence levels were effected by that. If a player is playing with a fear that he's out of the game if he makes a mistake, then you aren't getting a full effort from that player. You cannot force players into playing scared, especially rookies. I think Kedrick Brown still has the potential to become a good player, but he needs to get over his confidence problems that were brought on by your hero. The thing I hated most about him was his inabilty to adjust to mid-game changes in the opposing team's defense/offense. These were common approaches that some teams would change over to when the Celts were giving them problems. I remember one game against the Suns that the C's dominated the entire first half. After halftime, the Suns started pressing, and the team looked so lost. It was obvious the team had never worked on attacking a press, and because of that, Phoenix overcame a 20+ point deficit and won the game. He had the same problem with a zone. They had no idea how to score against a zone without hitting a 3. On the defensive side, you would also see changes made by teams who were figuring out the team defense. If a team started making adjustments to take advantage of the rotations, nothing ever changed. A point guard could find an open man everytime he was blitzed by Battie or Blount, but, sure enough, they would still blitz all game long. That's why you'd see no names keep getting career highs against them. Whoever was on the weak side of the defense could get open shots all night long if the right two passes were made. Teams eventually figured it out, but never did you see a change in the D by OB.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting hagrid:</div><div class="quote_post">I believe the man was purposely aloof and/or off point 90% of the time I had to listen to him in post game interviews. Just because someone has good diction and speaks in complete sentances, doesn't mean that what they have to say on a subject is necessarily "intelligent". So I suppose I'll give you the eloquent part as that also has less to do with knowledge on the subject, but rather it's presentation. I guess we can call OB a good public speaker, even if what he was saying is mostly BS/JUNK. </div> Ok, let me just put my 2 cents in because I used to work at WWZN (Celtic's flagship station) so I would go to 2-3 Celtics practices a week to gather audio. OB is both a good public speaker and a great basketball mind (as an added bonus, he's also just a really cool guy), so your both right on that count. If you asked him, even he would tell you he hated the Celtics style of play, but it was the only way he thought that they had a chance to succeed. And yes, he would admit that he would rather get those 5-10 extra victories than play a rookie in crunch time, but I think that comes from being an assistant most of his career and looking to make the most of the head coaching opportunity. Frankly, I think he should get credit for the fact that he looked at the talent he had an adjusted the game plan accordingly. Too often coaches try and bend the personnel to meet their style, rather than bending the style to meet the people trying to run it. If you want two examples you don't have to look any further than tonight's game against the Hornets: Doc trying to make Marcus play like Payton in the first half and Byron Scott making the Hornets run the Nets' Princeton offense (lot harder without JKidd, ain't it Byron?). Neither one was successful (at least Doc had the sense to let Marcus use his speed more in the second half before benching him most of the 4th). I have a couple points I'd like to disagree with, Thrilla: <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">He was all about the present, and until last year, nobody in the front office had the mental capacity to realize that it was a bad thing. He basically had full control over the team, and he used it to trade away youth and potential for guys that would fit into Harter's wild and crazy rotating defense.</div> You can't put the whole thing on OB. Wallace had just as much input as anyone. And true, the deal for Rogers and Delk looks bad in retrospect, but at the time in the organization it was a toss up between Kedrick Brown and Joe Johnson as to who would be a better pro (we know now, but you can't trade with the benefit of hindsight). Kedrick had that magic "potential" and was the better athlete. Now we know that he'll probably never reach his full potential, but at the time people thought he'd be better. The East was there for the taking that year and Wallace knew it. Frankly, I'd rather a GM who is aggressive and goes for it all. How was Wallace to know that the team would be put up for sale and he would have to avoid the luxury tax, not even allowing him an opportunity to re-sign Rogers and keep Anderson (who's deal was expiring and we know how valuable those guys are come february) for another go round? Who's to say that team couldn't have made a run at the finals if the same people had a full year together? Your always saying that you count Ricky as a new player this year because he only had half of the season with this team, so you'd have to give Wallace and OB the same benefit of the doubt. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">He refused to play rookies unless he had to. On the rare occasion that he did play a rookie, they were pulled after making any one mistake. You don't know whether or not some of those young guys confidence levels were effected by that. If a player is playing with a fear that he's out of the game if he makes a mistake, then you aren't getting a full effort from that player. You cannot force players into playing scared, especially rookies. I think Kedrick Brown still has the potential to become a good player, but he needs to get over his confidence problems that were brought on by your hero.</div> I'll ask again: which rookie would you have wanted OB to give more playing time to? Jerome Moiso? Chris Klack? Joe Forte? Kedrick Brown? It's not like Marcus and Kendrick have taken off on Doc's watch... And you keep saying OB destroyed Perk's confidence. I'm curious then, just what the hell do you think Doc is doing to Marcus Banks this year? Now, Marcus drives me just as crazy as any player on the C's, but if your gonna play him, play him and live with the growing pains. Don't give him the start tonight and then banish him to the bench for most of the 4th quarter like Doc did. Frankly, I'd rather he start Jiri at the point and move Allen into the starting lineup (keeping Ricky in his 6th man role) then keep yo-yoing Marcus's time at the point. Hell, he's not even letting him bring the ball up, he's having Pierce or Davis do it!! He gave Delonte West Marcus's spot after 2 shootarounds and then even when he plays, he's playing more 2 then point. You want to talk about OB hurting Kendrick's confidence, whats Doc doing to Marcus?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CeltsMan54:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'll ask again: which rookie would you have wanted OB to give more playing time to? Jerome Moiso? Chris Klack? Joe Forte? Kedrick Brown? It's not like Marcus and Kendrick have taken off on Doc's watch... And you keep saying OB destroyed Perk's confidence. I'm curious then, just what the hell do you think Doc is doing to Marcus Banks this year? Now, Marcus drives me just as crazy as any player on the C's, but if your gonna play him, play him and live with the growing pains. Don't give him the start tonight and then banish him to the bench for most of the 4th quarter like Doc did. Frankly, I'd rather he start Jiri at the point and move Allen into the starting lineup (keeping Ricky in his 6th man role) then keep yo-yoing Marcus's time at the point. Hell, he's not even letting him bring the ball up, he's having Pierce or Davis do it!! He gave Delonte West Marcus's spot after 2 shootarounds and then even when he plays, he's playing more 2 then point. You want to talk about OB hurting Kendrick's confidence, whats Doc doing to Marcus?</div>I didn't pin Perk on OB, I said Kedrick Brown. As for Marcus, I don't think your points are very relevant. Doc still gives Banks minutes, and he lets him play through mistakes a lot more than OB did. How often does Banks come in and commit a foul within 30 seconds? That's the kind of stuff that would've gotten him pulled by OB. Doc tells these guys that they have to "earn minutes", and he proves that it's possible by playing Jefferson and Allen. I think the players look at it differently knowing that it's possible for them to actually play. For OB- players think: -"If I make a mistake, I'm getting pulled, and I probably won't play for a week" -"If I play very well, it really doesn't matter because my role will never be expanded." For Doc- players think -"If I make a mistake, I may not play the rest of this game." -"If I play well, I will be given the opportunity to contribute down the stretch." Also, bringing up that Doc gave away Marcus' minutes to West doesn't really go against him as far as development is concerned. West is going to be his guy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Marcus, I don't think your points are very relevant. Doc still gives Banks minutes, and he lets him play through mistakes a lot more than OB did. How often does Banks come in and commit a foul within 30 seconds? That's the kind of stuff that would've gotten him pulled by OB. Doc tells these guys that they have to "earn minutes", and he proves that it's possible by playing Jefferson and Allen. I think the players look at it differently knowing that it's possible for them to actually play. </div> First off, Joe Johnson walked out of training camp with the starting job and played his way out of it, so OB also gave PT based on performance. Why does everyone seem to forget that OB started the rookie over 30 games that year? And how can you say that its not relevent when you rip OB for pulling a rookie if he makes a mistake when Doc does the same thing to Banks? He missed an open man on the break against New Orleans and we didn't see him again til garbage time. I contend that Doc is doing more damage to Banks because he's having Pierce or Davis bring the ball up even if Banks is on the floor. Why not just post "I don't trust your judgement" on the jumbotron? Frankly, I think having your minutes jerked around is more damning to a young player than sitting on the bench and knowing thats where your staying. By the way, your argument that OB won't play rookies would hold a lot more weight if Iguodala wasn't play 32 minutes a game for Philly.
Yeah, I see your points. I guess my opinion is based on what went through my mind in the OB days as opposed to now. When OB pulled a rook, I always thought it was only because he was a rook. When Doc pulls a rook, I think it's for obvious reasons. I feel Doc gives the young guys more of a chance to prove themselves. But maybe you're right. Maybe it's mainly due to the dramatic difference in talent between OB's rookies and Doc's. So I say chalk up another one in DA's column. CeltsMan, I'm still in the dark on your answer to the thread title. Do you miss OB?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">CeltsMan, I'm still in the dark on your answer to the thread title. Do you miss OB?</div> Not particularly. I thought he was a good coach and like I said, I may be biased cause I got to work with him a bit and he's was just really cool. But If he didn't want to be on board with the rest of management then he was probably better off leaving. Everyone not being on the same page is what killed this franchise for a decade. I know that some people felt betrayed the way that he left (they were the one's booing opening night), but I'm just not in that group. And even though I wish Doc would put more emphasis on D (I can't remember where I read the stat, but the year the C's went to the ECF they only had 21 games where they let up 100 points and they've already done it in 20 games this year), I like Doc and the direction he is taking this team. I just don't think the job OB did stabalizing the franchise after the Ricktator bolted should be under-stated is all.
good post, youre on a roll 54. Also good points above about OB starting JJ and him playing hisself out of it. Doc RIvers doesnt have much mof a choice to play rookies coz it feels like half his roster is a rookie or close to it. Doc Rivers is doing right evertime he takes out marcus banks. that "I dont trust your judgement" sign is a good idea. they should put that up about Bankss locker. gotta get the message across somehow
