I was at work today, and we're talking New England sports as usual, but an interesting topic of conversation arose, and to my surprise, alot of my co-workers concurred with my opinion. Thus, I'll ask this question to the forum and see what kind of reactions I can gather... Paul Pierce. All Star? Sure. Great Player? Of Course. Leader? No. That's personally the way I've viewed things from my perch here in New England. Don't get me wrong, I think Piece has a great court mentality, and he's a remarkable talent, but I question his role on The Celtics and have for quite some time. Is Pierce cut out to lead a franchise? I think this question was masked for quite some time, as Boston was led for several years by the very vocal and charismatic Antoine "Bean Town Shimmy" Walker. Pierce was simply never looked upon as a captain, never forced to be vocal, never put in the leader postion. He was a talent used for his offensive threat, and that was primarily it. Timeouts, it was Walker barking the demands, Walker hyping the crowd, Walker shouting the words of encouragement. I'll take you back to 2001-2002 playoffs, does anyone else recall Boston stealing a victory from New Jersey after overcoming what looked to be an insurmountable lead? Does anyone remember Walker on the sidelines? He was furious, it grew to the extent that he got into Pierce's face and scolded him, and sometimes that's what it takes. The fact that Walker showed such emotion, showed such concern, and took matters into his own hands ON AND OFF the court to assure a victory are signs of a true leader and a true captain. I personally don't believe Pierce possesses those qualities. He's blessed on the basketball court with his talent, however he isn't able to carry a franchise simply because he lacks the characteristics necessary to lead a team. Leadership has to be the most under-rated quality amongst NBA players, it's rarely ever brought up in evaluating talent. Yet, in many situations, it seems to be the most crucial. With the amount of talent the Boston Celtics have aquired, you'd figure they'd be at least capable of maintaining a record .500 or better. Yet for some reason this team seems to drop games down the strech, in my opinion it's a lack of composure and focus, qualities that a captain and a leader should be able to instill into his team. Many times you hear the Boston media and figure heads amongst the franchise's office stating how their Celtics show great potential but have to learn how to play as an actual TEAM. Doc Rivers reiterated those comments, going as far as to say it would infact be his biggest duty to carry out here in Boston during a pre-game interview. So, the question has presented itself. How valuable is Paul Pierce to The Boston Celtics? I know he has become the face of the franchise, but is it safe to say at least entertaining the idea of trading P Squared for another allstar caliber player who possessed more leadership qualities would benefit our team? I personally believe it's essential to the cause, especially with the amount of young talent stock piled along this team's roster. At this stage they are certainly most impressionable, and having a true leader who could teach these young players how to be successful, on and of the court, would be a huge addition to this ball club.
I would have to say that I disagree with the idea of moving Pierce because I do not think that you can trade for leadership, it must be earned over time. I don't believe that a player can walk into a locker room for the first time and suddenly everyone listens to every word they say. Maybe there are players who resume would demand other player's attention and respect but I don't think any would be available in a trade. I think Pierce's biggest problem is that he was never asked to be a leader and therefore just isn't used to being the rah-rah type of guy. When Walker was here, as you said, he was the one expected to lead the troups and be the vocal one. Once he left, it was Eric Williams who stepped up, not Pierce, to be the locker room patrolman. Now that E is gone I think that Pierce is trying to take more of a leadership role, but you can't become a leader of men with these kind of egos overnight. And yes it's true, GP has come in and taken over some of the vocal leadership from Pierce, but I think we can all agree that GP is a special player in that regards, and even he had to wade his way through training camp to feel out his teammates - see who responded to yelling and who needed to be pulled aside and quietly spoken too. I think Pierce is trying to be that guy and I think he's steadily improving. Also, I think the fact that the Celtics are hovering around .500 has less to do with leadership and more to do with the fact that they are trying to incorporate 7 (counting Raef) new players into the rotation. Doesn't matter how talented the players are, it still takes a while to get used to playing along side each other. From that standpoint, another trade may set the team back another step, not matter how much of a leader the new guy is. So, if the C's were going to entertain trade offers for Pierce simply from a basketball standpoint, I wouldn't be completely oppossed to it, though I doubt we would get value back. But to trade him away just to try and aquire a more vocal leader, I don;t think its a wise idea.
theyll only trade PIerce if he demands it or if he reverts to his '01-'03 form. No ones gonna give us what hes worth if hes scoring 19 points a game
I agree that Pierce is not a "leader", not like Walker was.........but you know what, he doesnt have to be the leader in my eyes, he just has to be The Truth......I also agree that trading Pierce is not a good move because 1. You wouldnt get equal value for him, so why would you do it. 2. That would get us back to "start from scratch" mode, instead of building the team from around the core we have right now, which is young and improving. Who wants to do that? Only way i trade Pierce is if 1. someone is offering a dominant big man for him (wont happen) 2. he becomes Ron Artest II, or starts whining for a trade like Vince or T-Mac.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NUMBA 17:</div><div class="quote_post"> 2. That would get us back to "start from scratch" mode, instead of building the team from around the core we have right now, which is young and improving. Who wants to do that?.</div> You can't build a championship contender around a shooting guard unless your roster boasts a number 23 on it, and last I checked Pierce still wore 34. Perhaps he's "The Truth", but building a team around someone who doesn't willingly want to accept the role of leader becomes a problem in my eyes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Perhaps he's "The Truth", but building a team around someone who doesn't willingly want to accept the role of leader becomes a problem in my eyes.</div> I'm not sure that's fair to say just yet. Sure, PP's hasn't exactly taken up the leadership role as quickly or as well as we'd have liked him to do yet. However, let's keep in mind that 'Toine was the guy mostly leading the team, with PP mostly doing his part by leading by example on the floor. Becoming a good leader doesn't happen overnight, even when you want the role to be yours. When you're hesistant about whether you're capable of being a good leader, taking up the reins can be a truly terrifying thing, because it now means everything is on your shoulders now. Some people adjust slower to being forced into the role and I think PP clearly falls into that situation. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't build a championship contender around a shooting guard unless your roster boasts a number 23 on it</div> Yeah, but what marquee Center are you planning on trading PP for? I don't see KG, DUncan or Shaq coming through that door.
Even your wonderful Celtics GM, Danny Ainge (you guys HAVE to hate him, am I right?) regrets trading Walker. What was the phrase that he used when he unloaded him, "NBA mind" or some crap? He said Walker didn't have it, but apparently, Ricky Davis and Raef LaFrentz do. I wish you Beantowners the best (just in Basketball though ) because its a pretty sad situation up there. You guys HAD a team that was more than solid. Peace.
Numba 17 Does Pierce HAVE to be a "leader" on this team for them to win, or can he just be the best basketball player on the team? To me, this "Pierce has to be a leader" thing is way overblown.............As has been said before, Pierce wasnt a "leader" when Walker was here, and those were the best years of his young career so far............ I actually think trying to be what hes not (a leader) might be whats hurt his game the last 2 years.........hes tried to do way too much on the court since Walker left, and thats led to the dip in his game........I think in the last 21/2 weeks his game is bouncing back, and I think it is due to him taking things off the flow more and more instead of forcing it. GP is here, and he can be the"leader". (Thats one reason I believe the Payton issue is going to be very important at the deadline, deciding to deal him or not is going to be a big decision.) The only "leader" I think Pierce needs to be is the leader in Points, Rebounds, and Key Shots to win games........he doesnt need to be the Captain like he is now....I always thought that was a mistake by the Celtics to make him the Captain.....hes not that type of guy, never was. It takes nothing away from his as a player to say hes not a leader, in my mind. Its DEFINETELY not a reason to trade a guy this talented and not even in his prime yet.
Numba 17 hey Jiggidy.......where'd you hear Danny has "regretted" trading Walker? LOL ...you were reading too much into those "Walker to Boston" trade rumors......that deal of Walker was a good move for the Celtics in the long run........ I always liked Walker, but Ainge wasnt going to sigin him long term so he got a deal for him that if you look at it, was not bad at all........We got Raef Lafrentz (way overpaid, but hes been solid for Celts this year) Jiri Welsch (another solid contributor, though he played better last year) draft pick who I believed turned out to be Tony Allen (Allen is a flat out STUD, hes gonna be a star in this league) I dont think thats a bad deal at all....theres definetely more work to be done, but Ainge is trying to build a team that can win a championship down the road, not one that can just make it to the playoffs and win a game or two right now. Young talent takes time to develop, but when it does the Celts will be fine. We dont need Walker back, as much as i liked him, and I dont think Ainge regrets that move at all. He shouldnt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JiggidyJames:</div><div class="quote_post">Even your wonderful Celtics GM, Danny Ainge (you guys HAVE to hate him, am I right?) regrets trading Walker... You guys HAD a team that was more than solid. Peace.</div> Well, thats the thing. We want a team thats much more than solid, we want a team thats Championship-calibur. And that team, as constructed with Toine and Paul, had peaked. My big complaint about the Walker deal is that I think Danny should have held out, at least until February and the trading deadline, cause thats when guys are at their most valuable. And its not the level of talent he got back that I was mad about, it was the fact that we took on Raef's contract. I remember laughing about it with my buddies when Cuban signed him to that deal... now its on our cap for four more years. But, no one hates Danny anymore. Having an amazing draft buys you lots of goodwill.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting hagrid:</div><div class="quote_post">Becoming a good leader doesn't happen overnight, even when you want the role to be yours. When you're hesistant about whether you're capable of being a good leader, taking up the reins can be a truly terrifying thing, because it now means everything is on your shoulders now. Some people adjust slower to being forced into the role and I think PP clearly falls into that situation.</div> Agreed. Also, I don't think Pierce needs to be a loud, vocal, Antoine-esque leader. You brought up Duncan and he's far from loud. I think Pierce is more the "lead by example" mold, which is fine. All he has to do is play his game, act professional (no more sulking or not running) and the rest of the young guys will see that and act accordingly. Actions can speak louder than words.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NUMBA 17:</div><div class="quote_post">Does Pierce HAVE to be a "leader" on this team for them to win, or can he just be the best basketball player on the team? To me, this "Pierce has to be a leader" thing is way overblown.............As has been said before, Pierce wasnt a "leader" when Walker was here, and those were the best years of his young career so far............</div> Yeah, Pierce has to be a leader, not just a good player. Ask Tracy McGrady how we did down in Orlando. Ask Kobe how he's doing down in LA. Being a good player is only going to get yourself statistics, being a great player and understanding every great team possesses a great leader will get you victories. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The only "leader" I think Pierce needs to be is the leader in Points, Rebounds, and Key Shots to win games........he doesnt need to be the Captain like he is now....</div> That's what Walker began to think, thus he began his strive to lead the league in scoring, or at least that's what it looked like he was attempting to do. Look where they got us, and look where that landed him. Pierce doesn't need to go out and attempt to dominate every game in the box score. Pierce needs to understand he's role on the team, step up as a leader, and help his teammate's game. Help them get involved, help them develop. I recall a game where Tracy dropped 62 and Orlando lost. Exactly. Shooting the lights out doesn't always translate into victories because this is a team game. EVERY GREAT TEAM HAS A GREAT LEADER...
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A suggestion: Atlanta receives: C Raef LaFrentz (11.0 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.2 apg in 27.3 minutes) PG Baron Davis (20.1 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.0 apg in 32.6 minutes) Change in team outlook: -6.5 ppg, -5.1 rpg, and +1.5 apg. Boston receives: SF Al Harrington (17.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 3.4 apg in 39.7 minutes) Jamal Mashburn (No games yet played in 2004/05) PF PJ Brown (10.6 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.3 apg in 36.8 minutes) Change in team outlook: -4.8 ppg, +2.0 rpg, and +0.3 apg. New Orleans receives: PF Antoine Walker (20.5 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.3 apg in 40.3 minutes) SF Paul Pierce (21.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 4.2 apg in 36.0 minutes) Change in team outlook: +11.3 ppg, +3.1 rpg, and -1.8 apg. TRADE ACCEPTED Why Atlanta Does It: Atlanta is in need of a face for the franchise. Somebody that is going to lead the team for years to come. They don't feel that Antoine Walker is that guy, plus, they have a fear of losing him after the season, so they make the move for an elite point guard. Based on the fact that they really aren't matching the deal talent-wise, they agree to over-pay LaFrentz for the rest of the contract. But they are so happy about landing Baron Davis that they don't even mind. Why New Orleans Does It: As things stand right now, the Hornets are the worst team in the league. They have a roster that is fairly talented, but have had bad luck with chemistry and injuries. They can't pass up the opportunity to reunite Pierce and Walker, who they feel is a proven dynamic duo in the league. They are good friends, and would improve the entire team chemistry. AW and PP also have a history of being injury-free. A move like this would also change the attitude of Jim Jackson, who surely wouldn't mind being part of a starting lineup that consists of: Dickau, Pierce, Walker, Magliore, and himself. Why Boston Does It: Ainge feels Pierce has run his course in Boston. He thinks it will be better for the team to build around the younger guys, and not have to worry about the ego of a "superstar" in the process. He's reluctant about shipping Pierce off for what may be less talent, on paper, but he can't pass on the chance to get Raef's contract off the cap. He realizes that the team has a rebounding problem, so he gets two solid rebounders to try and help. He's also getting 3 consistent scorers, with two of them being solid defenders. He feels that not only will it improve the team right away, but it will also give him more leeway in the future.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">Why Boston Does It: Ainge feels Pierce has run his course in Boston. He thinks it will be better for the team to build around the younger guys, and not have to worry about the ego of a "superstar" in the process. He's reluctant about shipping Pierce off for what may be less talent, on paper, but he can't pass on the chance to get Raef's contract off the cap. He realizes that the team has a rebounding problem, so he gets two solid rebounders to try and help. He's also getting 3 consistent scorers, with two of them being solid defenders. He feels that not only will it improve the team right away, but it will also give him more leeway in the future.</div> Not a bad suggestion, cause I heard Ainge tried to do a "Pierce for Mashburn straight-up" deal this offseason, but I think there are a couple problems with it. 1. Mashburn probably isn't going to ever play again. Last I heard, he was dealing with serious health issues, getting migraines and vision problems and it looks like he's going to be forced to retire. That's why the Hornets don't want to let him go - thats big money that could be available soon. 2. You can't sell this. As you said, this trade benefits the team by opening more PT for the young guys and Mashburn may retire, giving the team some cap space. But the team would take a BEATING in the local media for trading Pierce for a retiring guy, an old guy and a guy who left Indiana for more shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CeltsMan54:</div><div class="quote_post"> 2. You can't sell this. As you said, this trade benefits the team by opening more PT for the young guys and Mashburn may retire, giving the team some cap space. But the team would take a BEATING in the local media for trading Pierce for a retiring guy, an old guy and a guy who left Indiana for more shots.</div> Yeah, thats true. The same people who degrade and belittle the Celtics in the current state that they're in now, would also have something negative to say about a deal like this one. That's the reason that I hope that Danny doesn't take anything that is said in the media into account when shopping for deals. It's obvious at this point that anything short of reaching the ECF again will not shut the mouths of the Boston media. Granted, there has been some positive press in the area towards some of the young guys, but, in general, it's still an overall negative view of the franchise.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">olskoolFunktitude: Hey?/! What Happend To My Last Post?? </div> <font color="DarkRed">My guess would be that you said something you weren't supposed to. However, as you have been around for a long time at JBB, you also know that you should ask that question to the person who deleted the message (44Thrilla) via the appropriate channel, which is through PM's.</font> Thanks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">That's the reason that I hope that Danny doesn't take anything that is said in the media into account when shopping for deals. </div> I don't think that Danny worries about media perception when doing any kind of deal, but I'm willing to bet that Wyc and the boys do. They sunk and awful lot of money into aquiring the franchise considering they didn't even get the building in the deal. They need to start bringing some money back in and I'm sure if you've been to the Fleet this year, you noticed a lot of those luxury boxes are dark. That's why they're doing those silly promotions like that concert after this Friday's game. (I need the game to be a blowout so I can leave before that gets underway). The young guys are starting to generate some buzz around here, but if they move Pierce, they have to get a name back.
Why couldn't they just trade Pierce straight up for Baron, the C's need a point because GP is gone after this year? Pierce is becoming a bit of a female dog if you ask me, he never takes it hard to the hole anymore, his defense is attrocious, he just hoists shots not really working within the offense. I liked Bill Simmons' comparison to Ray Allen when he was dogging it with the Bucks. Also I wouldn't really know this because I'm on the West coast, but how are Pierce's work habits? I remember after he got stabbed he worked really hard and had the best season of his career, but know I don't see him as the type of player to come early, stay late anymore.
