This is Starting to Look Serious!

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks' recent slide is nothing compared to what is going on with the Minnesota Timberwolves, a team that came into the year regarded as a title contender. The Knicks and Timberwolves have had recent talks, and the Knicks would still be willing to trade Kurt Thomas for Wally Szczerbiak. Minnesota remains reluctant to pull the trigger, probably because Szczerbiak has been the team's second-best player behind Kevin Garnett. The teams have been trying to get Toronto involved as a third club in a deal for Szczerbiak.

If the Knicks acquired Szczerbiak, they likely would have to make another deal for a power forward, unless they are confident that Michael Sweetney and Vin Baker are suitable replacements for Kurt Thomas, who is averaging 11.3 points and 10 rebounds and is the team's best low-post defender.

Another name that has surfaced is Toronto's Donyell Marshall, who can play either forward position. To get Marshall, the Knicks may have to be willing to take back Jalen Rose's contract. Thomas was the only general manager ready to accept Rose and all his baggage if it meant getting Vince Carter, who ended up with the Nets. It's unclear if Thomas would agree to a similar deal just to acquire Marshall.</div>
New York Daily News
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There's talk that the New York Knicks have been approached about a three-team trade that would include the Timberwolves' Wally Szczerbiak, the Knicks' Kurt Thomas and Toronto's Jalen Rose. Former Wolves first-round draft pick Donyell Marshall of the Raptors is being mentioned, too, but not Latrell Sprewell and Sam Cassell of the Wolves, who are unhappy with their contracts.</div>
St Paul Pioneer Press
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This is really strating to look serious! I heard Wallky Szczerbiak's name thrown around many times, but now again? This really might go down this time. Everyone here in the Knicks forum knows that Wally is my boy and all but Kurt Thomas has been doing his thing in New York. I honestly do believe that this is Kurt Thomas' best year as a Knick. For the most part he has been consistant and always helped out Marbury. Marbury was the defenses number one option, and they always forget about Kurt Thomas who makes them pay with the midrange jumper. Also Kurt is one of the leagues best low post defenders. No one can argue with that. The man is just simplay suberb on defense. He is also our captain and always brings his game. So for Isiah to trade him, we should get something for equal value or better.

On the flipside of things you have Wally World who is one of the leagues best shooters and can really prosper with an elite PG in Stephon Marbury. Wally is an All-Star as well. I can understand where Isiah Thomas is coming from. The Knicks have gotten absoultely no production from the SF spot. As you guys all probably know, I would rather have my grandmother at that spot than Tim Thomas. At least she plays with heart . Now back to the matter at hand, the Knicks can really use some productivity at that position and add a fifth person to our starting lineup. Wally can be become big help for us he still is kind of young, and can always be an effective option however, I am worried. With Penny Hardaway's recent comments, you will have to wonder what will happen to Wally. Can Tim, Ariza, Wally, and Penny co-exist? Think about it. Those are 4 players who should get some decent minutes (TT shouldn't be he does anyway). Now switching over to the SG spot you have Allan Houston, and Jamal Crawford. You can also include Penny and Wally who can play either position. This will be more than a log jam. The Knicks will be really stuck.

Also Isiah Thomas can spice things up in a deal that involves a third team which might be the Toronto Raptors. Donyell Marshall is nice. He has a great shot (I don't think as good as Kurt Thomas) but, it is pretty decent and to make things even better, he can really spread out the floor and shoot the trifecta. I am not sure about his defense because I don't really get the chance to see him play all of that much. He is also very consistant however, there is a catch. The Knicks will have to take along Jalen Rose. Now we are already extremely high in the cap and probably will not be below it...at least not in our life time but, do we really want Jalen Rose? If the Knicks continue to keep these horrible contracts soon almost all of their players are going to have horrible contracts, and it will prove costly and bite us in the foot when making trades. Only the Knicks will be able to take these players because they are well over the cap bnut, let's not be stupid Isiah. That will make our log jam even bigger. Isiah Thomas will have to get rid of at least 3 guards in order for us to be in less of a log jam however, the Knicks can ill afford this. Hopefully one of our guards are in the deal for Marshall if we get him but, I repeat I do not want Jalen Rose. He is an old cat with a huge contract. People were talking about Allan Houston's contract...at least he is better than Rose in my honest opinion.

I really think the Knicks need a change up in the roster. They have to see what is good for the future, and what is also good for the playoffs. The Knicks don't need any other guards, they don't need any bad contracts either. What the Knicks need is scoring at the 3 and perimeter defense.Consistency can be thrown in what they need as well. If we do trade Thomas, for Szczerbiak, we better get Marshall without Rose. Also if we do a deal for Marshall, Toronto will probably not want a guard from us which means we will be in that same jam that we are currently in right now. If we are going to pull off a blockbuster such as this one, we better do this in the offseason. The Knicks roster will be highly imbalanced, and chemistry might cause problems. This trade definitely looks intersting and I think it should be looked at again...just not right now. I really think Wally can help us right now at that SF spot though.

 

I think we need to get another guard and lose another big man. Why not? That way we can assure ourself that we can't be a competitor. I hope we do it.

If this happens, I won't comment.
Enough said.

 

I like Wally World's game and I dont mind taking his contract but I do have a problem with giving up our best defender and arguably our best rebounder. At the moment Wally is playing some great basketball. He's the second best player on the Wolves right now and is averaging a little under 16ppg. I'd love to have the line up we would have had if we didnt do the Van Horn trade. An elite point guard creating shots for two deadly shooters on the wings. It would be the easiest thing in the world to break down the zone defense. And I always enjoy seeing New Yorkers playing for the New York Knicks.

But we have to ask ourselves do we think Sweetney and JYD will be able to hold down the powerforward position? And will Vin Baker be suitable back up for Mohammed? There is no doubt in my mind that with starter minutes Sweetney would easily average a double double. With more minutes Sweetney will also develop faster but he isnt the defender that Kurt Thomas is. Hes an underrated defender to be sure but not as good as Kurt. Those are the questions that have to ask before any trade is made. What about Ariza's development? We wont have that two man game that has obviously become a staple of our offense. On the other hand Houston and Wally both running around screens hitting three pointers is a beautiful thing. But then we'll be overloaded with guards and small forwards. We're already gettng complaints from Hardaway. Imagine if TT isnt happy? He could become a cancer. I dont know about this trade. It could work very well or be a complete disaster. A hit or miss trade(Isiah's favorite kind).

By the way, from what I hear Donyell is a good defender as well as capable of hitting the open midrange jumpshot. Can someone tell me who's going where in this three team deal? We're getting Wally and losing Kurt Thomas to the Wolves, I got that part, but where do the Raptors come in? Who are they getting and where is Rose and Marshall going?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way, from what I hear Donyell is a good defender as well as capable of hitting the open midrange jumpshot. Can someone tell me who's going where in this three team deal? We're getting Wally and losing Kurt Thomas to the Wolves, I got that part, but where do the Raptors come in? Who are they getting and where is Rose and Marshall going?</div>
I don't really know. The paper was kind of vague about that. If this goes down, we will have to give up many guards because that glutch would be unbelievable. That''s why I think we should wait untill the offseason for a huge blockbuster like this. It will give us some time and thought to make a responsible and thoughtful decision on what we can do with Tim Thomas and Penny Hardaway's contract. I also almost forgot about Ariza. What will happen to him? This guy is capable of being a superstar in this league and was definitely a steal in the draft. We should let him develop. I don't know what to do .

 

I don't know why the Wolves would do this trade. Spree looks like he will be traded so why would they get rid of Wally also. If this does go down I don't think it will hurt the team that much. We have JYD who can be pickup the defensive slack. In the offseason we can pickup a big man with Penny's contract.

 

the knicks need to trade way (tim) thomas and nazr. thomas sucks ths year and nazr isnt consistent

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NbaBaller:</div><div class="quote_post">the knicks need to trade way (tim) thomas and nazr. thomas sucks ths year and nazr isnt consistent</div>

My friend, TT sucks EVERY year. We cant trade TT he makes WAY too much money to move until the last year of his contract which is next year. I'm willing to wait for Nazr to come around. If he can be consistent he'll be a great center.

I must say I never fully realized how little we got out of the small forward position. It's ridiculous and disturbing. We really are playing 4-5. Maybe we should really consider getting Wally. If we cant start playing defense on a more consistent basis we might have to get better offensively to make up for our weak defense. Sweetney will be able to get more minutes and he can average a double double. We'll be more dangerous and not have to rely on just Houston and Marbury. As a bonus we'll be able to forever remove TT from the rotation.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Although Isiah Thomas admits he wants to coach again some day, he insisted Wednesday he won't feed that jones by pursuing the Lakers' job... Thus, expect the Kurt Thomas-for-Long Island's Wally Szczerbiak scenario to reemerge.</div>
Bergen Record
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Again. Instead of coming up with the 17634th thread of Wally Szczerbiak, I decided to just bring up this old thread. The way Kurt Thomas and Marbury have been allegedly fighting, we might see him leave. Now you guys know Wally is my boy and all but, we need Kurt's presence. We are putting a lot of pressure on Sweetney and if he starts who's backing Kurt up? Do you think Baker and Sundov can really be a huge factor? I guess maybe Jerome Williams can help. We need a Wally like shooter on the floor though. That would really be helpful. If we could get someone like Marshall, I think we would be okay. From what I heard they were unreasonable with trading though. I heard things like they wanted Igoudala and Dalembert. They'd probably want Ariza, Nazr and everyone else here! Anyways, what do you guys think?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">If he can be consistent he'll be a great center.</div> I thought you hated Nazi.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Regardless of the moves the Knicks make, they are a mess until after next season. I don't understand the urgency for them to make anymore deals before the deadline. The last thing they need is another player who likes shooting the ball, Wally Szerbiack. Besides, why make any more moves when they don't even know who their headcoach is going to be. Will Wally even fit into the new coach's gameplan?

Adding Wally and losing Kurt Thomas does not help this team, and Wally doesn't exactly come cheap either.

The Knicks just need to go through the motions this season and try to make the playoffs with what they have. Even if they miss them, is it all that bad for them to end up in the lottery and get another cheap, young talent? No it's not. Drafting around the 10th spot, maybe they can land a Hakim Warrick or Raymond Felton. Either would be another nice prospect to build around with Sweetney & Ariza.

After this season, the Knicks will be in a better position to start wheeling and dealing. However, first they need to figure out who their coach is going to be, so Isiah can get the players needed to fit the coaches system. Next season teams will actually be interested in Tim Thomas, Penny, Baker, and Mohammed because of their expiring contracts.

The Knicks have a lot of talent on this team, but they need to focus their athleticism on the defensive end of the ball. Another reason not to trade Kurt Thomas is because he's their best interior defender, and he's relatively cheap for the contribution he makes to the team. With the speed the Knicks have they could be one of the top defensive teams, but they need a coach who can handle their overpaid players.

The Knicks just need to be patient and try to make a run at a big name free agent. Yao Ming, Amare Stoudemire, or LeBron James.</div>

Well Kurt Thomas contract isn?t cheap either. They?re pretty even if you ask me. You said that Wally Szczerbiak like to shoots the ball however, he shoots the ball just as much as Kurt Thomas. They attempt 11 shots and some change per game. The only thing with Wally that separates him from the Knicks shooters is he shoots effectively. He doesn?t chuck up ridiculous shots and even if he did, his 50% on field goals, and 40% behind the arc wouldn?t lie. He is coming off a pretty good 16 points per game for the Wolves. The amount of space he would create would be enormous. Kind of like Houston and Marbury last season, they were a great back court. I believe they were the highest scoring one with 38ppg. Wally now with two exceptionally gifted penetrators in Crawford and Marbury, he will be given many open quality looks. I think Wally would be a very good fit for this team especially with Houston considered ?gone.? Now, they will have that 3 man backcourt that was planned last off season.

There is an urgent sense to make the playoffs. First of all this is New York and every year is urgent if you know what I mean. Second of all you mentioned getting young talent like a Hakim Warrick or Raymond Felton. We can?t because we don?t have any picks this season. Our first went to getting Marbury and our second was in getting Mohammed. We don?t have anything. You also mentioned wheeling and dealing next season because of our Hardaway, and Tim Thomas contracts. You said teams would actually be interested in them, but then you said make a run at Yao, James, or Amare. If we make a deal this summer with them, then how are we going to have anymore expiring contracts left to make a run at James and them?

Right now Kurt is cheap however, in a few years with that trade kicker and everything he will be making like 10 million in the final year(s) of his contract. Kurt Thomas is our best interior defender but, the whole ball club is struggling on defense. Obviously Kurt?s defense hasn?t helped us because we are still struggling. I see Kurt?s D like a needle in a haystack. The Knicks I think will do better if they had no defense however, just killed their opposition on offense. Kurt is a good defender but, I see it being better to us as a ball club if we traded that good defense for even better offense. Also there have been reports that Kurt Thomas and Marbury had a little beef recently. So the very last thing you want to hear is a team in danger of missing the playoffs with chemistry problems. You can?t get any worse than that!

We don?t know who our coach will be next season. If it is Phil Jackson a good shooter would fit perfectly in the system in fact, I read something saying the Lakers would trade Allan Houston for Kobe Bryant. I?m sure you remember hearing those ridiculous stuff lol. Anyway, a shooter must fit in very perfectly in that system for something like that to ever even be considered! A team can always use a good shooter and a penetrator like Marbry can always use a Wally around to help out.

I think the bottom line at least to me is, we need to make the playoffs by all means necessary. No silly moves before the deadline just something that will get us over the playoff hump. The playoffs will prove to be good experience for our young guys, it will satisfy us as Knick fans, and it will also almost be something we have to do because we do not have any picks in the draft this year. We need a change and we need it fast. Again, nothing silly just a smart move that will get us over the hump.

Btw, it?s nice to see another Talib Kweli fan around here! I love the struggle, just not the struggle of my Knicks.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Wally's contract goes from $9M (this year) to $13M in his final season. Kurt Thomas goes from $5.8M (this year) to $8M in his final season. It's really not that close, especially since Kurt Thomas is a bigger player, with skill, which is a commodity in the NBA these days.</div>
True, but Wally will only be in his early 30's while Kurt will be entering his 40's. Shooters tend to live longer in the NBA than big men also. Kurt Thomas is decent for a power forward and is consider undersized for a center. Wally is more versatile.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They shoot the same amount of shots, but the difference is Wally benefits from the double teams KG gets, neither Marbury or Crawford command that type of attention. </div>
Yes he does benefit from double teams. With Marbury and Crawford on the floor, it will cause similar attention to KG. Kurt Thomas benefits from Marbury leaving him wide open on pick and rolls. Kurt Thomas can not even create his own shot!

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You brought up Allan Houston, another reason why the Knicks don't need Wally. Houston does the same things on the court at Wally. He's struggled with injuries, but it just doesn't make sense for the Knicks to have an investment of $30M in two players who do the same thing. Also what happens to Ariza's development if Wally comes in and becomes the starting SF? Wouldn't you rather see the Knicks groom Ariza into the SF roll instead of him rotting on the bench behind Houston/Wally and their $30M combined contract?</div>
Many people think that Allan Houston will be ineffective and isn't the same H2O that we have come to love. I see Wally just adding more depth to the SF. I see Wally maybe averaging 25mpg or so. You can also put Wally at the 2 too. We'll see how they play. How do you know Ariza will be behind them? Ariza will get his minutes if he is effective.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The pick is LOTTERY protected. Neither guy is going to be a 2nd rounder, so that's irrelevant.</div>
I never knew that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You make a deal to get cheap role players or future draft picks. Or you use them to land a quality player the way they did with Marbury, in which case they wouldn't have to gamble on getting Yao, Lebron, or Amare. The point was, the Knicks hold all the cards, so why make an impatient move that's going to hurt their potential for a big free agent addition in 06/07</div>
Not an impatient move. I said don't make a silly move, make a move that will just get them to make it to the playoffs.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So you trade your best defender to beat teams with more offense? The way you blowout teams is with defense. The defense gets you more shot attempts and sets up easier looks, which leads to more points. This is the NBA, if you don't plan on playing any defense, any player will be able to have a huge night on your team. It should be blatantly obvious the Knicks need to add a defender if Kurt Thomas is the only one out there, and Wally is not the answer.</div>
The Mavericks had no defense and they blew out their teams fine. Wally is a better offensive player than Kurt is a defensive player. The Knicks have basically no defense and losing Kurt will not make a huge difference. Jerome Williams can cover that position pretty well. When their offense is not clicking, they don't have any defense to get them through so unless you are getting rid of pretty much everyone, why not simply just out score. Their best defense will be their offense.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That must have been one of Peter Vecsey's pipe dream articles. </div>
I think it might have been too lol. I also heard that Kobe/Houston thing from a whole bunch of other people too.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree, the Knicks should try their best to make the playoffs, but with the current roster, not by making a band-aid trade. With the pick being lottery protected, does that change your mind at all?</div>
I do think we should make a trade, just not a silly one we will regret. Maybe a nice role player that fits into our system without giving up too much. Just an idea. It makes me feel a little, actuall a lot better it is lottery protected. Thanks for the info shape. I still want to see the Knicks make the playoffs though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Btw, it?s nice to see another Talib Kweli fan around here! I love the struggle, just not the struggle of my Knicks. </div>[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Huh?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">How is Wally more versatile than Kurt Thomas, when Thomas can play the 4 and 5? At best Wally is equal at versatility, and that's a stretch.</div>
I guess Thomas can play the 5, he will be an extremely undersized one though. Knicks fans know in 02-03 this was the main problem. They always got killed on the boards and Kurt Thomas was always at a disadvantage because of height. Wally can play the 2 and the 3. I don't consider Kurt a real candidate for that position though.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I knew you would bring up the Mavs as an example. However, the Mavs should be the example used to demonstrate WHY a team cannot win with just offense. They've been a failure in the post-season. That's why they went out and got Dampier and Terry, to upgrade their pathetic defense. You also have to realize, the trio of Nash-Dirk-Finley, along with Walker off the bench, is far better than Marbury-Crawford-Wally, and H20 off the bench. It's not even close. </div>
Well, you have to take into consideration that they play in the eastern conference which might be the worst conference in all sports. The Mavericks played great ELITE teams on a daily basis. I think Walker killed team chemistry but, remember the year before that? They took it to 6 games with the Spurs without Nowitzki. Had he been playing, they could have had a legit shot at wining the whole series and maybe even a championship! No Marbury, Crawford and the rest of them can't compare to Dirk and the rest of them however, it can provide something very similar into the weak east.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you trade Thomas, who backs up Nazr?</div>
Kurt usually doesn't play center for us. Baker, and believe it or not Sundov gets a couple of minutes here and there. JYD is quick and provides some nice hard nosed defense sometimes at the 5. Sweetney will get more minutes and develop more.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you trade Thomas for a SF, the Knicks will have 4 guys at that position this year. Ariza, Houston, Wally, and TT. </div>
Whoa, I forgot this guy was even alive! Anyway, the way he has been playing, he deserves no playing time. The little scoring he gives us has been at a horrible percentage, and I think his lackluster defense needs no commenting on. He should understand why he will be getting no time. Maybe even at the 4 if we get really desperate.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks don't have depth at size to make a deal like that and benefit at all from it.</div>
They have a rising star in Sweetney seeing more time, and Baker has also been decent for us. Also what about Marbury and Kurt Thomas. Do you think it will cause chemistry problems and distractions? That was one of our problems chemistry and we can illafford seeing that again. Literally, I was sick to death watching that!

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">All team's have teammates fighting. Teams like the Lakers and Knicks get the most media coverage, which is why you always hear about their problems. However, Wally isn't exactly an angel. He's gotten into fights with teammates, and I believe KG beat him up in the locker room a season ago.</div>
Actually I never heard about it. It was in a slam magazine. I think struggling on a successful and playoff lock teams fighting isn't too bad however, when you are in danger of missing the playoffs from a franchise worst record in January, it is more serious.

KG beat him up?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's hard to avoid these fights, but I think Marbury and Thomas can settle their differences. Winning is the cure for everything, so if the Knicks start winning again, those two will kiss and make up.</div>
They're not winning and I think by the time they realize it, they it will be too late.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">How is Wally more versatile than Kurt Thomas, when Thomas can play the 4 and 5? At best Wally is equal at versatility, and that's a stretch.

I knew you would bring up the Mavs as an example. However, the Mavs should be the example used to demonstrate WHY a team cannot win with just offense. They've been a failure in the post-season. That's why they went out and got Dampier and Terry, to upgrade their pathetic defense. You also have to realize, the trio of Nash-Dirk-Finley, along with Walker off the bench, is far better than Marbury-Crawford-Wally, and H20 off the bench. It's not even close.

If you trade Thomas, who backs up Nazr?

If you trade Thomas for a SF, the Knicks will have 4 guys at that position this year. Ariza, Houston, Wally, and TT.

The Knicks don't have depth at size to make a deal like that and benefit at all from it.</div>

The Mavericks have done pretty decent for themselves in the post season. It wasnt too long ago that they were in the Western Conference Finals(not sure though). They should not have gotten Walker by the way. The Kings have done well in the post season and their a lazy defense explosive offensive team. Having both Houston and Wally on the floor will be very effective despite the fact that they do the same thing. It worked very well when we had Van Horn playing at the three spot along with Houston and Marbury. Granted Marbury, H2O and Wally World arent as good as the old Mavericks trio it should be able to work just as well as long as we play unselfish basketball.

Jerome Williams usually comes off the bench to relieve Nazr Mohammed not Kurt Thomas. The plan is to deal TT and his expiring contract for a player that actually knows how to play and Houston plays at the 2 guard. So next season it will only be Wally World and Ariza manning the small forward position if the Kurt for Wally deal happens.

But you're right about not having enough depth up front. That could be fatal especially in the playoffs. But Kurt and Marbury arent getting along(nothing new they've been annoyed at each other since last season) and something has to happen. If we cant stop teams from scoring our only option is to outscore them like the old Mavericks and Kings did. There's just no other way us to win. The main reason why our defense sucks is because Marbury and Crawford are pathetic defenders and niether of these guys are going to be traded while Isiah is around so we have no choice but to try to outshoot other teams. The Kurt-Wally trade will allow us to do that.

 

Mavericks did do pretty decent with just offense, but in the end they were beaten by defending teams.
Also, the Knicks would need a completely different offensive set to score 100+ regularily, the pick and roll is not going to make you an elite offenisive scoring machine. Not to mention more they need scorers that actually shoot decent %'s. Thats not intended has an insult, just saying that the scorers on the Knicks arent being very efficient with their shots and there might not be enough of them.

 

^Which side are you on?