<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I mean watch Tmac play now and last season, he's playing good defense in Houston right now, and he's fired up and excited about playing, but really how many players would've been happy in that situation. </div> He was the one who got us into that situation, well not alone. I blame also Gabriel for his off-season moves, FA signings (Howard and Lue), Draft and letting go of Armstrong, also Doc for whatever he did wrong in training camp. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Look at Drew Gooden, he didn't suddenly become good, anyone that had seen this guy before would know he could do this, just had no motivation in Orlando at all. He wasn't close to being the same high energy guy he was as a rookie, and is being again this year in Cleveland.</div> He was in a bad situation, he had had a great playoff-series against Detroit and all of a sudden came Howard and took over his starting job. This one goes clearly to Doc and Gabriel. What T-Mac said is no surprise fo me, he was talking rubbish to the media all season long and it was clear that he didn't give 100%.
Yup, that's true, he was obviously part of the downfall because he gave up so early etc, and I wasn't surpsied myself at all, it's something I already knew, just how he said it was kinda dumb.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post"> With Vince, he never said he didn't give 100% every night on the floor, he said "When I first came into the league, I took things for granted, and assumed I would be this energetic and athletic forever. I should have worked harder and focused more. Once the injuries came, I realized that it would take more than just pure talent to succeed, so I've worked on that." </div> First of all, that's not what he said. If you go and watch the interview, Coach Thompson asks him: "Did you think you pushed your self hard enough with team?" Vince's answer: "In years past, NO!." And with that, he's admitting that he SLACKED off a bit effort wise, and didn't TRY to give his all to the team. He's not saying that he didn't play 100% in certain games, he said in YEARS past. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He admitted to not putting as much work as he should off the court which were could say for more than 50% of the players in the NBA, but never actually said he didn't put his all on the court. Now obviously he didn't give 100% on the court every night which was evident, but outside of energy players like a Jerome Williams, and some select guys, how many players in the league actually give 100% every night?</div> Thompson's question came right after he asked why he doesn't drive anymore and settles for jumpshots. So that indicates that they were talking about the On-Court performances. Ok, look back at Vince's games last season and the beggining of this season. It is very obvious that he didn't do what 70% of Vince Carter could have done. In last year's All Star Game, he ran the floor and jumped more like he did in the last 2 years with the Raps. Look at his performances now with the Nets, he's drving and playing defence and actully running the floor. Where was that 3 weeks ago???. Besides you don't have to jump on the floor or go to the stands after a loose ball to show that you play with 100% effort as you're referance to Jerome Williams. Players like Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson give it their ALL (100%) every game, and they are not as athletic as Vince is. So it ain't impossible. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree that he didn't go the EXTRA mile in his play, ie get fired up and excited, but he was always in the game, he always tried on offense, and the whole TEAM slacked off on defense so he wasn't alone in that.</div> You call the miltiple fade-aways and deep three pointer "Trying". Everybody knows that if Vince actully "Tries" on offence, he could jump and blow past any baller in the world (i.e. his first three seasons and current performances with New Jersey). As for the defence, his teammates slacked off too? So what? Part of being a franchise and a max player is giving a MAX effort and setting the tone for his teammates,which by the way most of whome gave big effort on defence (Exception:Rose), they're just not good defenders. It was very evident for anyone who watched Vince from Day1 that he wasn't giving it on the court the last season and a half. Injuries are part of being in the NBA, and when you sign that Max contract, you're commiting yourself to a franchise and promising to give your max effort, which in Vince's case, doesn't equal to 19 PPG, and less that 6 FTA.
I like og15's post...you guys are you guys need to give them a break, I can GUARANTEE you, half of you would've done the EXACT same thing if you were put in their situation... its easy to sit infront of your computer and type... Besides, we can't escape human nature, just like how teams and players all seem to hustle and play D better when they're winning or have just made a great play... and teams that are losing and are getting beat consistently seem to be slow and lethargic... its human nature. Of course as a fan I wanted to see both of em give more effort, they made mistakes, now they can start over new. But of course, this brings back my point why MJ is the greatest ever hehehe, I loved his passion and the intensity he played the game with.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, that's not what he said. If you go and watch the interview, Coach Thompson asks him: "Did you think you pushed your self hard enough with team?" Vince's answer: "In years past, NO!." And with that, he's admitting that he SLACKED off a bit effort wise, and didn't TRY to give his all to the team. He's not saying that he didn't play 100% in certain games, he said in YEARS past.</div> Yup, and it's true, he did.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thompson's question came right after he asked why he doesn't drive anymore and settles for jumpshots. So that indicates that they were talking about the On-Court performances. Ok, look back at Vince's games last season and the beggining of this season. It is very obvious that he didn't do what 70% of Vince Carter could have done. In last year's All Star Game, he ran the floor and jumped more like he did in the last 2 years with the Raps. Look at his performances now with the Nets, he's drving and playing defence and actully running the floor. Where was that 3 weeks ago???. Besides you don't have to jump on the floor or go to the stands after a loose ball to show that you play with 100% effort as you're referance to Jerome Williams. Players like Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson give it their ALL (100%) every game, and they are not as athletic as Vince is. So it ain't impossible.</div> Last season he gave more effort than this season, last season he was just making bad decisions in terms of shot selection, and was tentative at driving hard to the basket. The All-Star thing, right out of Rautins mouth, and it is true, what am I supposed to do? On the Nets, he isn't really driving more, his defense has been just as average as it was here in Toronto, but he's playing more minutes, getting posted up which worked when we did it with him, and has a better PG. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You call the miltiple fade-aways and deep three pointer "Trying". Everybody knows that if Vince actully "Tries" on offence, he could jump and blow past any baller in the world (i.e. his first three seasons and current performances with New Jersey). As for the defence, his teammates slacked off too? So what? Part of being a franchise and a max player is giving a MAX effort and setting the tone for his teammates,which by the way most of whome gave big effort on defence (Exception:Rose), they're just not good defenders. It was very evident for anyone who watched Vince from Day1 that he wasn't giving it on the court the last season and a half. Injuries are part of being in the NBA, and when you sign that Max contract, you're commiting yourself to a franchise and promising to give your max effort, which in Vince's case, doesn't equal to 19 PPG, and less that 6 FTA.</div> I don't think Vince can do what he did his first three seasons, his laziness in working on his body which caused the constant injuries, has stripped away part of his athletic ability, and he'll only be able to do that again if he starts working a lot in the summer, but that's not going to happen. The multiple fadeaway's haven't gone anywhere, he still does those constantly. Defensively, that was the only thing he actually did decent on our team in addition to passing, and with the exception of some games, his defense was actually okay. Outside of Bonner, Milt, and Marshall sometimes, the rest of the guys didn't put the effort on defense. Bosh and Alston did sometimes, but not always, and Rose doesn't like defense, so he's excused. He's not made much improvement in New Jersey in terms of production, most people fail to realize that he's playing 10 more minutes per game in New Jersey. We all watched last year and knew that Vince many times started producing late in games, but this year Sam Mitchell didn't consitently allow him to play crappy through the first part of the game and hurt the team, and then try to pick it up later in the game to help us. His numbers per 40 minutes: <u>Toronto:</u> 20.9 points, 4.3 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 1.65 steals, 0.99 blocks, 1.46 turnovers ---- 21.2 shots per game, 5.0 FT attempts per game <u>New Jersey:</u> 21.4 points, 6.1 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.13 steals, 0.38 blocks, 2.50 turnovers ----- 18.5 shots per game, 4.9 FT attempts per game His scoring has been more efficient due to how he's been used, and playing with Kidd, his rebounding is up because they're a horrible rebounding team, I think the guards on the team rebound better than the big's statistically. His turnovers are up, assists are down [makes sense], his defense is down statistically and in terms of his PER production, and FT attempts per game are down by 0.1 I definately won't support the fact that both these guys didn't give 100% in their playing which was clearly evident, but I'm not going to "hate" and act like it's some farfetched idea for a proffesional player to not give 100% regardless of the amount of money they make, or what their role is supposed to be on the team. It would be hypocritical because I do the same thing in other things, and many other pro's do the same thing, but aren't naive enough to go out and admit it. JYD isn't surprised.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The news that Vince Carter sometimes gave less than a full effort in Toronto came as no surprise to Jerome Williams, his former Raptors teammate. That Carter admitted it on national television did. "You should never say that you're not playing hard when you're commanding those types of dollars," Williams said. Williams said Carter was not the only N.B.A. player who did not always give a full effort. But, he said, "he's probably the first to admit it."</div> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/sports/b...l/10knicks.html Rasheed says it's the norm... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The funny part is that although their statements make Carter and McGrady look like punks, they are hardly alone in taking nights off. According to one NBA veteran, there isn't a player in the league who doesn't coast through a game now and then. "There's going to be times when people say that it looked like we weren't going hard, because it happens," Pistons forward Rasheed Wallace said Sunday. "I don't know (any one) in this league who goes hard for 82 games, plus the playoffs. There's going to be a couple nights where you might just cruise through, or you might tell your coach, `Well, I'm not too much up to it tonight,' because you've got to get your body that rest. But, as far as everyone saying that taking nights off is bad or whatever - no, it's stuff that we need."</div> http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...10605888.htm?1c
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting yudalicious:</div><div class="quote_post">I like og15's post...you guys are you guys need to give them a break, I can GUARANTEE you, half of you would've done the EXACT same thing if you were put in their situation... its easy to sit infront of your computer and type... </div> exactly...its easy for you to sit in front of your computer and tell me or anyone else what we are like, and what we would do...easy? yes. a load of crap? most certainly. there are plenty of players in the league that dont take a night off...lebron, KG, duncan, wade...i think its sickening that a player making millions and millions would just hang it up for a few nights ffs...these guys are playing a game for a living, and becomming filthy rich while they do it. its pretty wack that some of them claim to need motivation.
Actually it's not easy for me to sit in front of my computer and type, I have mad athritis, and also a couple of broken fingers, and it pains be to type, but just to engage in discussion with you guys I suck the pain up.
It's just a classic case of a max contract. When a player gets the money, they'll obviously won't work as hard as when they were fighting for a contract (Randolph, Dampier). T-Mac was being selfish, but he thinks he was justified in his attitude after what he went through. Honestly, even if he did work harder that team wouldn't have gone anywhere. I think Carter put in the same effort every year (not including this season), but as other teams started to key on him he never stepped it up like he should have.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually it's not easy for me to sit in front of my computer and type, I have mad athritis, and also a couple of broken fingers, and it pains be to type, but just to engage in discussion with you guys I suck the pain up.</div> glad to see you bring it on a nightly basis...and you arent even being paid millions. or are you? og15 = KG of jbb. intense...focused...and brings it nightly no matter what. fights through injuries. tough kid.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DerfZ:</div><div class="quote_post">tmac was always lazy, he was even lazy when he was playing with vince, and when we were winning in toronto</div> He sure looks lazy with those lazy eyes of his.......LOL
LOL. But seriously I cant really blame the players for slacking off. When I was in summer league som games i didnt want to play, I didnt really slack off but i would do things to conserve energy like I wouldnt shoot much or I wouldnt run as fast. Actually i guess im always slacking off because unless im playing someone I really dont like or I'm reeeeaaaaaaaalllllllllllllyyy trying to show off I wount even jump. I do Steve Nash layups and Larry Bird shots all game
I didn't mean it to come out as blaming you guys or passing judgement, I apologize, but look at TMac and Vince's situations in Toronto and Orlando, I mean, as humans, sometimes its our tendency to do what they did, you know, that feeling when you're playing a game and everything's just going wrong, you (I don't want to use the word slack) just naturally become dejected and slow, you don't hustle as much; where as say you're team's winning, you just hit a big shot, you're much more likely to dig down and play some intense D... does it make what they did right? no not really, that's why I gave the MJ example, and that's why he's my fav. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">exactly...its easy for you to sit in front of your computer and tell me or anyone else what we are like, and what we would do...easy? yes. a load of crap? most certainly. there are plenty of players in the league that dont take a night off...lebron, KG, duncan, wade...i think its sickening that a player making millions and millions would just hang it up for a few nights ffs...these guys are playing a game for a living, and becomming filthy rich while they do it. its pretty wack that some of them claim to need motivation.</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting yudalicious:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't mean it to come out as blaming you guys or passing judgement, I apologize, but look at TMac and Vince's situations in Toronto and Orlando, I mean, as humans, sometimes its our tendency to do what they did, you know, that feeling when you're playing a game and everything's just going wrong, you (I don't want to use the word slack) just naturally become dejected and slow, you don't hustle as much; where as say you're team's winning, you just hit a big shot, you're much more likely to dig down and play some intense D... does it make what they did right? no not really, that's why I gave the MJ example, and that's why he's my fav.</div> i believe the opposite, i think if your teams down, u gotta bring them up, your getting paid superstar money, why not act like one?
Vince Carter made Toronto basketball. Plain and simple. Before Vince, their most noteworthy player had been Damon Stoudamire. Now we can all bash Vince for what he said, and I think a lot of people are mad just because he said it, but the truth remains, Vince just said what other players do and don't say. Primary example, Shaq. It's amazing his "company time" statement only made a ripple, though I'm certain he's a bigger star than Vince. All in all, it's admirable when a player like KG, Kobe, or AI plays hard all the time. But for a player who's been injured, and who's team has been sketchy, though I don't approve, the situation is understandable. On the other hand, McGrady has no excuse, apart from the fact that he was surrounded by scrubs. McGrady hasn't gone through the injuries and ups and downs that Carter has so he has less of case.
