<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">I didnt see anyone bash Sweetney. He just said Bosh is more important to us. He did imply that Bosh was better, but Bosh is better, you even said that, so i dont see a problem. Next thing you know the Knicks guys will be in here. What i am gunna say though is that Sweetney probably would not be putting up the same numbers as Bosh if they played equal minutes. Rebounds and points are the same if you just double Sweetney's current stats, but theres more than that. Bosh is the focus of the oppositions defence so faces abit more pressure than Sweetney. Also Bosh's numbers are including fatigue of playing double the minutes, while Sweetney is only on for 16 minutes over the course of the game. = fresher legs. Then there's the question as to whether he'd be able to play 32 minutes let alone keep his efficiency up. He's definately overweight. 270 pounds for someone 6-8 is nuts, and although he does have some muscle, alot of it is fat. Bosh is also 2 years younger than Sweetney. So that deserves some mention. That being said i think Sweetney could be an Elton Brand type player, maybe not quite as good, but definately a valuable player to have on your team. He's powerful and is tough for PF's like Bosh to contain. Heck at 270 it would be tough for most centers to hold back, if only he wasnt 6-8. I think Sweetney has the potential to be a solid 16 and 11 player, but he needs to work on not turning the ball over as much as he does. Dropping some fat and getting some more muscle would also do nothing but good and allow him to overpower even more than the beast he is. I think in a year or two he'll be the Knicks starting PF and it will allow Kurt to finish his career with the Knicks has a solid backup PF. Sorta like master and apprentice. I like Sweetney. He's the second best sophomore big guy in the atlantic division. </div> Yes Sweetney could give the same results as Bosh who plays double than him. I'm sure many of you Raptor fans feel as though Bosh is your best player right? So, it will only make sense that he gets more touches. Sweetney averages only 4 shots per game while Bosh averages 11 shots per game so that should also be taken into consideration as well. Sweetney is somwhat overweight. A lot of it is muscle too. Not just fat. He has a Brand like figure who is also 270. That will come in due time. Sweetney is pretty much a rookie because the burn he got during the Layden regime was too little to be called time. Any time he was in the game, he made things happen though. Bosh is just the opposite. He needs to gain some weight. They listed him at 235 but that looks a bit leniant. I really think he is less. At least he looks less. I see him becoming a solid 18 and 11 guy but he needs to get that weight thing down.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">mrj18...he bolded that part in particular, because that was the specific part of your post he was responding to. thats why people usually do that on the subject of sweetney...its pointless for us raptor fans to try and argue with a knick fan that bosh is better. a lot of knick fans will continue to think that sweetney is as good as bosh or even better, and they wont listen to anyone say otherwise. even though he's not starting, and the knicks arent even taking measures to build around him. yet somehow he's just as good or better then chris. not all knick fans of course.</div> I admitted that Bosh was better. I'm not going to sit here and front. Bosh is better. The way you like Bosh as a crowd favorite, as your future is why he is the equivelent to Sweetney. Again, (as I posted before) I never said Sweetney was better than Bosh in fact, here is a quote: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I can understand you saying better</div> Btw, I was pretty sure about why he made it bold, I just wanted to be 100% sure.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I can understand you saying better. But waaaaaaay better? I don’t think so. Exactly how many times do you watch Sweetney a year? The reason why he is more important to the Raptors than the Knicks, is because he is taking on a bigger role than Sweetney. Eventually I see their impacts on their teams, being the same. </div> i didnt say better. i said important, if we didnt have Bosh we would be a lottery team for years to come, Sweetney doesnt have the same impact that Bosh does even if he is getting less PT
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if you thought that the only thing Kurt Thomas is good in is his defense, you still have to consider that he is one of the best low post defenders in the NBA right now. Marshall is a good defender but, I think he is much better than Donyell Marshall. I'm not knocking him I'm just trying to emphasize how good Kurt Thomas is defensively. </div> I'm not hating on Kurt Thomas...but as good as he is defensively he's not worth his contract. Jalen isn't worth his contract either, but his contract is worse than Jalens. The Raps want to win this year, next year and the following years to come. If we're going to win, having Bosh as our first option and someone like Mo Pete or a rookie that we draft, is not that realistic. We need a legit scorer to go with Bosh. That scorer is Rose, or whoever we can acquire for him. Unless we can get someone like McCants or Warrick in this draft, this trade won't benefit our immediate future. In addition, Kurt Thomas would just be coming off the bench for 24 MPG getting paid 9 million. Not worth it IMO. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think that Kurt Thomas' midrange shot is better than Donyell Marshall's however, Marshall just has more range. If Kurt Thomas was on the Raptors, I think he can have an equivelant presence to Marshall. I just see Marshall being able to shoot the 3. </div> We have different opinions. Marshall doesn't really have "more range", he' just best from shooting around the 3 point line. He's not really a good mid range shooter, good at best, but he'll stick em. Marshalls presence to the Raptors can't be matched by Kurts because Rafer is the guy that runs our offense. Once he goes in the lane, there's almost always someone open for the 3 ball. Marshall is often that guy when he's on the court, and he sticks em. Kurt is more of a pick and roll guy, and he can shoot the mid-range with a defender on him, or without either way, but he won't get the same shots in TO as he does in NY. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, not a slight advantage to Marshall. I think they are even. I mean I guess you could go to their bios and see Marshall averages 7.4rpg and Thomas averages 7.3rpg inasmuch as Kurt Thomas has been averaging more recently.</div> If you give Marshall minutes, he'll rebound. Last year when he was starting, he grabbed 11 RPG for the Raps, and was a beast on the boards at times, grabbing 17, 18, 19, 20 and more when you needed them. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I also think Kurt Thomas is more consistent than Marshall. I know Marshall is very consistent I just feel that Kurt Thomas is more. I really can only remember only one or two instances where he had a bad game. Other than that, I don't remember. The only problem I see is his money. Kurt Thomas never had any hops or athletic abilities, so age wont really be a problem for him. As I said before, his game is like fine wine...it just keeps getting better year after year.</div> Marshall is not inconsistant. He'll have a bad game here and there, but he's a consistant player. Give him shots, he'll stick em, he'll grab boards, block shots, he'll do everything. He just needs the same minutes game in game out. In TO right now, he might get 30 minutes one night and 9 the next, so that's why some of your opinions might be swayed. Legs also have to do alot with longevity in the NBA. Thomas's legs are part of his shooting routine. They'll get older, especially for a big man like him who bangs away and moves around down low as much as he does. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas not that good of a rebounder? He averages 9.7rpg. Prior to his few recent bad rebounding performances, he was one of 8 players in the league averaging a double double. That is pretty good and the Raptors can use that. Thomas is capable of playing the C, and he did a couple of years ago and managed to have a great season as well. Even if he is undersized for that position, I see him producing more at the 5 than Araujo. You also said that Marshall was a better rebounder than Kurt Thomas and as good as Nazr. How can this be if Kurt is a better rebounder than Nazr? </div> Kurt Thomas is probably a good rebounder at best. For his height and strength, it's about right, but nothing special. The reason his numbers were like this the past few years, is because he had to grab boards. No one else was there to do that, and his rebounding was above average than either. Right now, he has Nazr Mohammed, a big body, which gives him more space and oppurunities for rebounds. I'm not saying he's bad, but he's not really that good for his size and strength. Mohammed is a better rebounder than Kurt, I don't care what anybody says, but Nazr is a beast inside. He's more skilled than Kurt in that category, and he's flat out better. About Araujo, it's not all about him grabbing boards and all that. He just needs to grab his fare share of boards, about 9-10 RPG at his prime, but more importantly, create space for Bosh to do what he wants, and get to the glass as well. This way, having both of them on them court, you can have two 9-10 RPG rebounders. Knicks may have that in Kurt and Nazr, but I'd take Hoffa and Bosh in a heartbeat over them two. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas does not shoot the 3 pointer but, he his a very effective midrange shooter. He can spread the floor. Maybe not like Marshall, but his midrange jumper is very good. A majority of his points come from that area and for some reason he shoots 48% from jumpshots. That is an excellent percentage especially considering they all come from the perimeter. Let's say that his 3 point shot was better than Kurt's midrange shot. What about his other shots? He does shoot only 41% from the field which is only 2% higher than what he shoots from the 3. That either tells me he can't shoot other shots well, or a majority of his shots are only 3's. Which one is it? To me, his contract is the only thing that might turn the Raptors off. His age I think has little to do with it.</div> If you haven't noticed, 40% from behind the arc is a very, very good percentage. Kurt may shoot 48% or whatnot from 15, but he's not a guy that can do much inside or outside from that. Where as Donyell can, he can go inside, shoot from midrange (not like Kurt) and he can kill you with the 3...as you may of seen yesterday. If Ray Allen shoots 5 3's a game, and hit 41% of them, and has a FG% percentage of 44%, are you saying that he can't shoot other shots well and that most of his shots are 3's? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Penny Hardaway can also play the 1 as well. So, a little 1 a little 2 and a little 3 will give some sufficient time. I think you guys are forgetting Penny Hardaway is a solid veteran role player and contributes. No, I'll be the first one to say that Penny is not as goos as Rose, but he can still contribute. His contract is horrendous, but he will give you something his contract expiring will be big for you guys too. You guys can get a better player than Kurt for Marshall, but Kurt Thomas is a good player. His contract is the only thing.</div> Yes Penny can play the 1 and 2, but for how long? 20 MPG for half the season? I much rather have Rose and his contract and production than Pennys production and contract. I'm sure most Raptor fans will agree. Penny is way past his prime. You also realize that the Raps will be paying him 15 million to do that right? Last time I checked, that was quite alot of money. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Double Double Machine? How many has he had this seaosn? I don't think too many. Not more than 6 I know for sure. Because he can post people up at 6'8 makes him really good and makes it even better that he can score too. His attitude, and shot selection is bad too. Hardaway no production? I don't know man. He still can contribute, he is a solid role player, and has veteran experience. I think this will be useful for young guys in Toronto. Big contract which is almost gone. That will definitely give Tornot some cap room especially with them in somewhat of a rebuilding state. This isn't flawless for NY either. I don't really want this trade to go down either. Doesn't work out for us as well. Nuff said.</div> lol it seems like you did your research before you posted because Marshall does have 6 Double Doubles this year. How would you know for sure that he doesn't have more than that 'Nuff said? The man is a double double Machine. Last year, he was Mr.Double Double. The difference is this year, is that he's not playing the minutes he was last year (Bosh and Hoffa/Woods). Put him in the starting lineup (assuming one of your bigs like KT is gone, so he gets PT), and your guranteed a double double 4 out of every 5 games. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You say that you are rebuilding right? I'm taking it as you don't really have a desperate urge to make the playoffs. So your young players developing, and you getting cap room, doesn't count as rebuilding? Penny Hardaway is as I said before, a very good role player, and makes good contributions. Penny has a slight hamstring injury and once he fully heals, he will be able to help the Raptors out. He and the other trainers said that he is in the best shape he has been in a long time. Rebuilding requires patience. </div> No that Paragraph was completely pointless. We're not in a rebuilding process. We're just retooling our team, while being competetive and loading up for the future. Plus for Penny, I love the guy and all, but once this injury is healed...another one willjust hit him in a week. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If this goes down, and in the next few years Bosh becomes an elite PF, they sign a great FA, have some great young rookies, and are title contenders would you disagree? </div> Just one question....Would cap space do us any good if nobody wants to really want to sign with the Raptors if they haven't been to the playoffs in a while? With this trade, we're definitly not going to be competitive like we are now, so cap space won't do us much good. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Typical cat that doesn?t watch the Knicks . Yes in a couple of years, Sweetney can become our franchise player! We don?t see him becoming the next Garnett, we see him becoming the next premier PF in the league in a couple of years. a bit far? I see Bosh becoming a good player in the league, but better than Garnett. And I?m overrating Sweetney. They are comparable. What are you talking about. They are both crowd favorites right? They both have good futures right? Also don?t you think Bosh is a little underweight?</div> I'm not one of the posters that were implying anything negative about Sweetney, but I understand what you're saying. In a few years, you'll have him in the starting lineup as your PF, with Marbury and Crawford. That should be a good trio for years to come. I don't see Sweetney being better than Bosh, but I can see him being a good player in a mold of someone like Troy Murphys impact and presence on his team right now. At best, he can have an impact like Brand to the Clippers, but with lower numbers. Also, Bosh isn't really underweight. 6'10, 235. You don't want him getting too big do you? Then he'd just loose a huge part of his game, quickness. Sorry for any grammar mistakes, I didn't have time to review the whole post.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I admitted that Bosh was better. I'm not going to sit here and front. Bosh is better. The way you like Bosh as a crowd favorite, as your future is why he is the equivelent to Sweetney. Again, (as I posted before) I never said Sweetney was better than Bosh in fact, here is a quote: </div> notice i said "not all knick fans" and didnt directly quote any of your posts yea...and just to add...donyell is a double double machine. he avg'd a double double last season. he's a great rebounder
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not hating on Kurt Thomas...but as good as he is defensively he's not worth his contract. Jalen isn't worth his contract either, but his contract is worse than Jalens. The Raps want to win this year, next year and the following years to come. If we're going to win, having Bosh as our first option and someone like Mo Pete or a rookie that we draft, is not that realistic. We need a legit scorer to go with Bosh. That scorer is Rose, or whoever we can acquire for him. Unless we can get someone like McCants or Warrick in this draft, this trade won't benefit our immediate future. In addition, Kurt Thomas would just be coming off the bench for 24 MPG getting paid 9 million. Not worth it IMO.</div> I thought getting someone good in the draft was a part of the plan. My fault. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting :</div><div class="quote_post">We have different opinions. Marshall doesn't really have "more range", he' just best from shooting around the 3 point line. He's not really a good mid range shooter, good at best, but he'll stick em. Marshalls presence to the Raptors can't be matched by Kurts because Rafer is the guy that runs our offense. Once he goes in the lane, there's almost always someone open for the 3 ball. Marshall is often that guy when he's on the court, and he sticks em. Kurt is more of a pick and roll guy, and he can shoot the mid-range with a defender on him, or without either way, but he won't get the same shots in TO as he does in NY. </div> Well, if Toronto has so many good 3 point shooters, why would the absence of just one vreate such a confict. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you give Marshall minutes, he'll rebound. Last year when he was starting, he grabbed 11 RPG for the Raps, and was a beast on the boards at times, grabbing 17, 18, 19, 20 and more when you needed them.</div> I know he is good on the boards. I also mentioned that in my first post. Marshall is not inconsistant. He'll have a bad game here and there, but he's a consistant player. Give him shots, he'll stick em, he'll grab boards, block shots, he'll do everything. He just needs the same minutes game in game out. In TO right now, he might get 30 minutes one night and 9 the next, so that's why some of your opinions might be swayed. [/QUOTE] I never said that he was inconsistent in fact, I mentioned in my first post, that he was consistent. I just feel that Kurt Thomas is more consistent. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Legs also have to do alot with longevity in the NBA. Thomas's legs are part of his shooting routine. They'll get older, especially for a big man like him who bangs away and moves around down low as much as he does. </div> Not really, Thomas barely jumps or uses his legs when he shoots. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas is probably a good rebounder at best. For his height and strength, it's about right, but nothing special. The reason his numbers were like this the past few years, is because he had to grab boards. No one else was there to do that, and his rebounding was above average than either. </div> At best Kurt Thomas is a decent rebounder. I heard some people saying that they consider Kurt "undersized" so, if an undersized PF who is usually out on the perimeter averages almost 10rpg, I think that makes him a good rebounder. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Right now, he has Nazr Mohammed, a big body, which gives him more space and oppurunities for rebounds. I'm not saying he's bad, but he's not really that good for his size and strength. Mohammed is a better rebounder than Kurt, I don't care what anybody says, but Nazr is a beast inside. He's more skilled than Kurt in that category, and he's flat out better.</div> Even if you thought Nazr was a better rebounder, you have to admit Kurt is a good one himself. Kurt has been rebounding well before Nazr became this good, or before we had him, or Marbury. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">About Araujo, it's not all about him grabbing boards and all that. He just needs to grab his fare share of boards, about 9-10 RPG at his prime, but more importantly, create space for Bosh to do what he wants, and get to the glass as well. This way, having both of them on them court, you can have two 9-10 RPG rebounders. Knicks may have that in Kurt and Nazr, but I'd take Hoffa and Bosh in a heartbeat over them two.</div> The point I was trying to make is right now, Kurt Thomas will contribute more than Araujo will. I'm guessing Hoffa means Araujo. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you haven't noticed, 40% from behind the arc is a very, very good percentage. Kurt may shoot 48% or whatnot from 15, but he's not a guy that can do much inside or outside from that. Where as Donyell can, he can go inside, shoot from midrange (not like Kurt) and he can kill you with the 3...as you may of seen yesterday. </div> I am aware of his tremendous offensive talent. He does have more offensive abilites than Kurt Thomas. That isn't a question. I was just responding to the comment he doesn't have a better shot than Marshall. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Ray Allen shoots 5 3's a game, and hit 41% of them, and has a FG% percentage of 44%, are you saying that he can't shoot other shots well and that most of his shots are 3's? </div> We already know Ray Allen is one of the best shooters in the league. He shoots the 3 well, and 44% isn't a bad shooting percentage at all. That's pretty decent for a shooting guard. Especially considering many of his shots are jumpers rather than slashing to the basket like many other SG's. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Penny can play the 1 and 2, but for how long? 20 MPG for half the season? I much rather have Rose and his contract and production than Pennys production and contract. I'm sure most Raptor fans will agree. Penny is way past his prime. You also realize that the Raps will be paying him 15 million to do that right? Last time I checked, that was quite alot of money.</div> Well, I heard that the Raptors were trying to rebuild. Penny's contract will expire before Rose's so I thought it will help the Raptors accomplish their goal sooner. Both are overpaid, Rose is just better right now. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">lol it seems like you did your research before you posted because Marshall does have 6 Double Doubles this year. How would you know for sure that he doesn't have more than that </div> lol it seems like you read my post thoroughly before replying because I said more than 6 double doubles this year <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">'Nuff said? The man is a double double Machine. Last year, he was Mr.Double Double. The difference is this year, is that he's not playing the minutes he was last year (Bosh and Hoffa/Woods). Put him in the starting lineup (assuming one of your bigs like KT is gone, so he gets PT), and your guranteed a double double 4 out of every 5 games.</div> Excuse me. It just never showed this season. That's why I was so confused. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No that Paragraph was completely pointless. We're not in a rebuilding process. We're just retooling our team, while being competetive and loading up for the future. Plus for Penny, I love the guy and all, but once this injury is healed...another one willjust hit him in a week. </div> Again, I thought you guys were rebuilding. If you guys are not looking to make a strong playoff push this year, I assumed you were rebuilding. I don't think he is that injury prone. I don;t think any less than Carter. If he is than not by much. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just one question....Would cap space do us any good if nobody wants to really want to sign with the Raptors if they haven't been to the playoffs in a while? With this trade, we're definitly not going to be competitive like we are now, so cap space won't do us much good.</div> Why not? If you a player decent money, I'm sure there would be someone willing to sign. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not one of the posters that were implying anything negative about Sweetney, but I understand what you're saying. In a few years, you'll have him in the starting lineup as your PF, with Marbury and Crawford. That should be a good trio for years to come. I don't see Sweetney being better than Bosh, but I can see him being a good player in a mold of someone like Troy Murphys impact and presence on his team right now. At best, he can have an impact like Brand to the Clippers, but with lower numbers.</div> I see Sweetney being just as good as Brand. I don't see Bosh being as good as KG, or JO though. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, Bosh isn't really underweight. 6'10, 235. You don't want him getting too big do you? Then he'd just loose a huge part of his game, quickness. </div> True, but Bosh really is kind of skinny. He doesn't want to quickness, but I'm sure he doesn't want to get abused either. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry for any grammar mistakes, I didn't have time to review the whole post.</div> It's all good. I understood everything you said, and had no trouble.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">notice i said "not all knick fans" and didnt directly quote any of your posts yea...and just to add...donyell is a double double machine. he avg'd a double double last season. he's a great rebounder</div> Techinically he didn't he averaged 9.9rpg lol. But for real, I just couldn't see it this season. But I heard he didn't get any burn.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Na, are you crazy Judging from the way you put in bold print my quote: "Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh" I see you do not agree with the statement. Should I dig up the appreciation thread? We love Sweetney here and he does have a great future. If he got the same amount of playing time as Bosh, he would put up some good numbers. Why did you bold the Sweetney part? I'm just curious.</div>Well I bolded the part because we see Bosh as the franchise at this point in the present and future. I don't want to hate on Sweetney but I seen the dude play, he is not Elton Brand. For one, Elton Brand can play amazing defence. Another, he came into the league as a dangerous low post threat. Third, he won the freaking ROY. Can you build a franchise around this Sweetney cat? I don't think it is guranteed like Brand was. Bosh is already the face of the franchise and he's only going to get better. That is why I was wondering why you see Sweetney as we see Bosh. I just don't agree with it I guess as much as Knick fans do. I say give him another year and then make predictions on the kid. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas can help the Raptors. He plays great defense and I think that will help considering they allow close to 99ppg. He is also a good shooter, and an experienced veteran role player who is one of the most consistent players you'll find. He is also not ashamed to do what we consider the "dirty work." Kurt Thomas can stretch the floor. Maybe not as much as Marshall, but he can. Last nights game please don't get gassed, the Knicks have an atrocious defenses in the league. Letting go of Marshall wont completely stop your chances of shooting out of the zone. Murray, Bonner, Peterson and Alston are all very capable of shooting out of the zone. Marshall is not the only shooter on the team. </div>This is not a case of who is the better player or a better talent. This is a case of a 34 year old talented power foward with 4 years left on his contract vs. a player that is coming off the cap next year. I have no doubt about Thomas' talent but I don't want him on our team. Why add him? We already have Bosh. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You say that you are rebuilding right? I'm taking it as you don't really have a desperate urge to make the playoffs. So your young players developing, and you getting cap room, doesn't count as rebuilding? Penny Hardaway is as I said before, a very good role player, and makes good contributions. Penny has a slight hamstring injury and once he fully heals, he will be able to help the Raptors out. He and the other trainers said that he is in the best shape he has been in a long time. Rebuilding requires patience. </div>How are we getting cap room? You are leaving us with Thomas' large ass contract. Thats not exactly getting rid of cap room. Like I said. I would rather get rid of Donyell's contract and wait for a better deal for Rose. This is not helping our problems one bit. Why wait one year for a bad contract to get off our cap? Why don't we just trade for someone that will come off right away? Sure rebuilding takes patience but it also takes being intelligent about your moves and your future. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If this goes down, and in the next few years Bosh becomes an elite PF, they sign a great FA, have some great young rookies, and are title contenders would you disagree? </div>Hell yeah but having KT's contract on our books for 4 years, we are more than a little hindered at doing that wouldn't we? Disagree?
Listen, I'm about to leave now, but I'll make sure to respond tommorow. Don't want to wake up late for school or anything. I got finals and stuff!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> No, not a slight advantage to Marshall. I think they are even. I mean I guess you could go to their bios and see Marshall averages 7.4rpg and Thomas averages 7.3rpg inasmuch as Kurt Thomas has been averaging more recently.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kurt Thomas not that good of a rebounder? He averages 9.7rpg. Prior to his few recent bad rebounding performances, he was one of 8 players in the league averaging a double double. That is pretty good and the Raptors can use that.</div> Marshall averages more over his career. Marshall has 5 seasons with at least 8 rebounds per game, Kurt is working on his fourth. Marshall has 2 seasons with 10 rpg, Kurt has none...9.7 is the closest he's come and thats this year, next closest is 9.1. Marshall averaged 16.2ppg and 10.7rpg in 66 games with the Raps last year. Finishing the season only .1rpg from averaging a double double. This year 'Yell is getting 24 minutes per game this year and he's still getting 10.7 and 6.8. Kurt is not a good rebounder for a PF, thats a well known fact. This year he's been doing fine, but it might be because Crawford, TT, and Nazr are all horribly rebounders for their position. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> Thomas is capable of playing the C, and he did a couple of years ago and managed to have a great season as well. Even if he is undersized for that position, I see him producing more at the 5 than Araujo. </div> I dont know about Kurt has a center. I'm sure he's done it...so has Donyell. But both are too weak for the spot, and both play away from the basket. I'd take 'Yell though simply because he's a better rebounder. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> Typical cat that doesn?t watch the Knicks . Yes in a couple of years, Sweetney can become our franchise player! We don?t see him becoming the next Garnett, we see him becoming the next premier PF in the league in a couple of years. a bit far? I see Bosh becoming a good player in the league, but better than Garnett. And I?m overrating Sweetney. They are comparable. What are you talking about. They are both crowd favorites right? They both have good futures right? Also don?t you think Bosh is a little underweight?</div> They're both favorites, they both have good futures. Just remember Bosh has a bigger upside and is 2 years younger. Bosh is waaay better. Sure Sweetney doesnt get the same minutes but i think everyone will agree that Bosh has the skills, the speed, the talent...everything to be a top 5 player. Does Sweetney? At 6-8 and a chunky 270 pounds. Thats questionalbe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Well I bolded the part because we see Bosh as the franchise at this point in the present and future. I don't want to hate on Sweetney but I seen the dude play, he is not Elton Brand. For one, Elton Brand can play amazing defence. Another, he came into the league as a dangerous low post threat. Third, he won the freaking ROY. Can you build a franchise around this Sweetney cat? I don't think it is guranteed like Brand was. Bosh is already the face of the franchise and he's only going to get better.</div> We see Sweetney as the franchise, or one of the franchise players. No Sweetney is not Elton Brand. I have seen this cat Bosh play, and no he is not JO much less KG. Yes you can build a franchise around him just as much as Bosh. It might seems that way because the Raptors were not as good, nor does Toronto play in an environment with expectations close to being equivelant to New York. New York is not the type of place where they can risk using such a young player to turn around the franchise...they don?t have the time to wait. If Sweetney played his whole career in Toronto where they do, then I think he will be giving you similar stats to Bosh, but as of now, Bosh is better. I said developing into an Elton Brand like player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That is why I was wondering why you see Sweetney as we see Bosh. I just don't agree with it I guess as much as Knick fans do. I say give him another year and then make predictions on the kid.</div> Bosh is your future?Sweetney is our future, Bosh is a crowd favorite?Sweetney is a crowd favorite,?You guys love Bosh?we love Sweetney. That?s why I see him the same way as Bosh. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is not a case of who is the better player or a better talent. This is a case of a 34 year old talented power foward with 4 years left on his contract vs. a player that is coming off the cap next year. I have no doubt about Thomas' talent but I don't want him on our team. Why add him? We already have Bosh.</div> Why add him? Thomas is a veteran who adds defense, a bit of offense, rebounding, and experience. Any team can use him. I can see you talking about his contract but because you have Bosh, that doesn?t mean Kurt Thomas wouldn?t be useless on the Raptors. I don?t see Bosh averaging 40+mpg anytime soon, at least not this season, or next. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How are we getting cap room? You are leaving us with Thomas' large ass contract. Thats not exactly getting rid of cap room.</div> Well you do have Thomas contract, but you lose Penny?s soon. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said. I would rather get rid of Donyell's contract and wait for a better deal for Rose. This is not helping our problems one bit. Why wait one year for a bad contract to get off our cap? Why don't we just trade for someone that will come off right away? Sure rebuilding takes patience but it also takes being intelligent about your moves and your future. Hell yeah but having KT's contract on our books for 4 years, we are more than a little hindered at doing that wouldn't we? Disagree?</div> I would rather too. I don?t want this trade going down at all. We gain cap room, and lose a little bit when Marshall?s expires. Not something too impressive for me. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02CIVIC:</div><div class="quote_post">Marshall averages more over his career. Marshall has 5 seasons with at least 8 rebounds per game, Kurt is working on his fourth. Marshall has 2 seasons with 10 rpg, Kurt has none...9.7 is the closest he's come and thats this year, next closest is 9.1. Marshall averaged 16.2ppg and 10.7rpg in 66 games with the Raps last year. Finishing the season only .1rpg from averaging a double double. This year 'Yell is getting 24 minutes per game this year and he's still getting 10.7 and 6.8. Kurt is not a good rebounder for a PF, thats a well known fact. This year he's been doing fine, but it might be because Crawford, TT, and Nazr are all horribly rebounders for their position.</div> Yeah Marshall averages more over his career Why didn?t you inform everyone that Kurt Thomas averages 7.3 rebounds over his career, and Marshall wins in a landslide at 7.4! Kurt Thomas is not a good rebounder?!?! Anyone who averages 9.7rpg is a good rebounder. If you think Kurt Thomas isn?t a good rebounder than Marshall isn?t. Their minutes in throughout their careers, are almost identical. Marshall averages 28.4 and Kurt averages 28.5 and Marshall averages .1 more rpg than Kurt Thomas. Basically it looks like this. Kurt Thomas 28.5mpg 7.3rpg Marshall 28.4rpg 7.4rpg Tell me now which one is a better rebounder when it is clear their stats are almost identical. Clear cut Marshall? I don?t think so! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont know about Kurt has a center. I'm sure he's done it...so has Donyell. But both are too weak for the spot, and both play away from the basket. I'd take 'Yell though simply because he's a better rebounder.</div> He played C in 02-03. He averaged 14ppg, and 8rpg. I think that?s pretty good. ?Yell is a much better rebounder than Kurt. I?m bugging, he averages a full one tenth of a rebounder more than Thomas. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They're both favorites, they both have good futures. Just remember Bosh has a bigger upside and is 2 years younger. Bosh is waaay better. Sure Sweetney doesnt get the same minutes but i think everyone will agree that Bosh has the skills, the speed, the talent...everything to be a top 5 player. Does Sweetney? At 6-8 and a chunky 270 pounds. Thats questionalbe.</div> You would know everything about Sweetney watching him all the time and all Bosh is better I?ll give you that but not ?waaay? better. Sweetney is like a rookie. He barely got any time during the Layden regime, and Isiah wanted to make it to the playoffs that year so Sweetney?s time was very limited. Toronto is in no way, shape, or form has the same expectations as NY. Toronto was really bad before they got Bosh, so know one expected a huge change. Bosh had the time, and the more lenient environment to develop. Sweetney has the power, smarts, and work ethic to become a good player. Bosh does have the speed, skills and talent to become a good player, but I don?t think top 5. You also failed to mention the negatives about Bosh and not Sweetney which makes your argument seem very biased.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> They're both favorites, they both have good futures. Just remember Bosh has a bigger upside and is 2 years younger. Bosh is waaay better. Sure Sweetney doesnt get the same minutes but i think everyone will agree that Bosh has the skills, the speed, the talent...everything to be a top 5 player. Does Sweetney? At 6-8 and a chunky 270 pounds. Thats questionalbe.</div> I really doubt it that Sweetney could double his mpg, he would be too tired and wouldn't have enough endurance to be nearly as effective. Too compare Brand to Sweetney this early in their careers: Brand: 37 mpg 1st season. ROY Sweetney: 11.8 mpg 1st season. I don't know about sweetney, but Brand seems to be a really explosive guy for his size. Like he can get up and dunk it whenever he needs to.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">We see Sweetney as the franchise, or one of the franchise players. No Sweetney is not Elton Brand. I have seen this cat Bosh play, and no he is not JO much less KG. Yes you can build a franchise around him just as much as Bosh. It might seems that way because the Raptors were not as good, nor does Toronto play in an environment with expectations close to being equivelant to New York. New York is not the type of place where they can risk using such a young player to turn around the franchise...they don?t have the time to wait. If Sweetney played his whole career in Toronto where they do, then I think he will be giving you similar stats to Bosh, but as of now, Bosh is better. I said developing into an Elton Brand like player. </div>I never compared Bosh to JO or KG. Bosh will turn into his own type of player in time. But you are telling me that we the Raptors would be able to build around an overweight, undersized poor man's Elton Brand? This dude can't even play defence like Brand. The only reason you are using Brand as an example is because he is undersized. This guy is nowhere close to Brand right now, only in size. And by saying franchise about Bosh, we MEAN Franchise. I mean he is the guy we are building around. THE ONE GUY we are building around. He is THE GUY. That is how talented this dude is and he is also 2 years younger than Sweetney and only 20 Years old averaging a double double since the New Year. Bosh is the face of the franchise. If you can say that Sweetney is the face of the franchise then.........that is your opinion and I'll leave it at that. <font size="1">I just don't agree with it.....</font> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why add him? Thomas is a veteran who adds defense, a bit of offense, rebounding, and experience. Any team can use him. I can see you talking about his contract but because you have Bosh, that doesn?t mean Kurt Thomas wouldn?t be useless on the Raptors. I don?t see Bosh averaging 40+mpg anytime soon, at least not this season, or next.</div>I know we can use him but is this really consistent with what we are trying to do in Toronto? No. And Bosh has been averaging close to 40 since Vince got shipped out. It's happening sooner than later. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well you do have Thomas contract, but you lose Penny?s soon. </div>Yah and? Penny's is coming off NEXT season. I would rather take my chances with Rose and not add another bad contract in Thomas'. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I would rather too. I don?t want this trade going down at all. We gain cap room, and lose a little bit when Marshall?s expires. Not something too impressive for me. </div>This trade stinks on the Raptors end. Thats all I can say.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">I never compared Bosh to JO or KG. Bosh will turn into his own type of player in time. But you are telling me that we the Raptors would be able to build around an overweight, undersized poor man's Elton Brand? This dude can't even play defence like Brand. The only reason you are using Brand as an example is because he is undersized. This guy is nowhere close to Brand right now, only in size.</div> I never said you did compare him to Bosh. Another Raptor fan did. I was just clearing up the air. You know nothing about Sweetney to be judging him like that. Poor mans Brand. So what would Bosh be? You're acting as if he is the next Wilt. I haven't seen any post where you stated a negative about Bosh. Of course cause he's flawless. You failed to mention that Sweetney greatly utilizes his weight and size to be effective. Brand has a similar body structure, similar hands, and similar presence in the inside. Who would you compare Bosh to? Right now I'm telling you he is no where near that player, unless he isn't too good. You're missing the point. Sweetney is just about a rookie and is still very young. Hop off. What would you expect from a second year player? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And by saying franchise about Bosh, we MEAN Franchise. I mean he is the guy we are building around. THE ONE GUY we are building around. He is THE GUY. That is how talented this dude is and he is also 2 years younger than Sweetney and only 20 Years old averaging a double double since the New Year. Bosh is the face of the franchise. If you can say that Sweetney is the face of the franchise then.........that is your opinion and I'll leave it at that. <font size="1">I just don't agree with it.....</font></div> I don't know how to say it more clearly than it's because the Raptors have sucked for so long! They play in Toronto. Toronto doesn't have expectations that are not even close to the expectations of New York. They have the time to give a 19 year old legit playing time because of where they are located. I really don't think you should be judging a player who you probably see on average (I'm being nice) 7 times a year. If you saw the game today, you would know what I am talking about. Sweetney is the future of the franchise. Right now the Knicks aren't bad enough to build one of the heaviest franchises in the NBA, on the shoulders of a second year player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know we can use him but is this really consistent with what we are trying to do in Toronto? No. And Bosh has been averaging close to 40 since Vince got shipped out. It's happening sooner than later. Yah and? Penny's is coming off NEXT season. I would rather take my chances with Rose and not add another bad contract in Thomas'. This trade stinks on the Raptors end. Thats all I can say.</div> This trade stinks more for the Knicks!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said you did compare him to Bosh. Another Raptor fan did. I was just clearing up the air. You know nothing about Sweetney to be judging him like that. Poor mans Brand. So what would Bosh be? You're acting as if he is the next Wilt. I haven't seen any post where you stated a negative about Bosh. Of course cause he's flawless. You failed to mention that Sweetney greatly utilizes his weight and size to be effective. Brand has a similar body structure, similar hands, and similar presence in the inside. Who would you compare Bosh to? Right now I'm telling you he is no where near that player, unless he isn't too good. </div>The only reason you are comparing this kid to Elton Brand is because he is an undersized weighty power foward who can score down low. But I don't want to regard him as such because his defence is not nowhere near as close to Brands. What makes Brand so effective on defence is his long arms. I'm not trying to say this kid ain't talented because last night he was good for 15 and 8 in 18 minutes. He is talented. But he is not Brand. By saying that I mean that offensively he is not as talented and defensively he is nowhere close to where Brand was as a rookie or his second year. And I'm not comparing Bosh to anyone. Right now he is raw as hell but impressively averaging good numbers since the all star break. But if I were to compare him to someone it would have to be Garnett due to his defensive capability, atheliticism and offense. That is what I would base my comparison on. But he is not going to be Garnett, he is going to be Chris Bosh. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're missing the point. Sweetney is just about a rookie and is still very young. Hop off. What would you expect from a second year player?</div>And Bosh is even younger than Sweetney is. What is the point? The point of this whole arguement is that we don't need to add Kurt Thomas for reasons stated previously already in this trade thread. And Sweetney is a second year player that is not getting burn on a Knicks team that is faltering. I don't understand why he isn't but there must be a reason. Maybe defence? I don't know. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know how to say it more clearly than it's because the Raptors have sucked for so long! They play in Toronto. Toronto doesn't have expectations that are not even close to the expectations of New York. They have the time to give a 19 year old legit playing time because of where they are located. I really don't think you should be judging a player who you probably see on average (I'm being nice) 7 times a year. If you saw the game today, you would know what I am talking about. Sweetney is the future of the franchise. Right now the Knicks aren't bad enough to build one of the heaviest franchises in the NBA, on the shoulders of a second year player. </div>I can agree with that. But is it really smart for one of the leagues biggest markets to build around an undersized power foward? The Clippers did it but Brand is a different player, everyone can agree to that. I'm sure Sweetney is one of the important pieces of the future but he is not the franchise. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This trade stinks more for the Knicks!</div>THIS TRADE STINKS MORE THE RAPTORS Can we get a damn poll going on this??
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">The only reason you are comparing this kid to Elton Brand is because he is an undersized weighty power foward who can score down low. But I don't want to regard him as such because his defence is not nowhere near as close to Brands. What makes Brand so effective on defence is his long arms. I'm not trying to say this kid ain't talented because last night he was good for 15 and 8 in 18 minutes. He is talented. But he is not Brand. By saying that I mean that offensively he is not as talented and defensively he is nowhere close to where Brand was as a rookie or his second year.</div> I did say develop into a Brand-like player. Brand ws an elite power forward in the league even as a rookie. He is underrated star in the league, and Sweetney was not equivelent to him as a rookie either. He was a rare rookie like LeBron and Carmelo. I am going to say like Carmelo because he went to college. He is similar to Anthony because they dominated as rookies. Those are hard to come by and Sweetney is not like that. The key word I said is develop. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And I'm not comparing Bosh to anyone. Right now he is raw as hell but impressively averaging good numbers since the all star break. But if I were to compare him to someone it would have to be Garnett due to his defensive capability, atheliticism and offense. That is what I would base my comparison on. But he is not going to be Garnett, he is going to be Chris Bosh.</div> I don't think he is even like Garnett, try Travis Knight! I'm just joking right there. Everyone knows that. But I don't see Bosh with the Garnett in him. I don't see him as having the same court awareness, or defense for that matter. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Bosh is even younger than Sweetney is. What is the point? The point of this whole arguement is that we don't need to add Kurt Thomas for reasons stated previously already in this trade thread.</div> It wont be a necessity however, you can use his help. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Sweetney is a second year player that is not getting burn on a Knicks team that is faltering. I don't understand why he isn't but there must be a reason. Maybe defence? I don't know.</div> Again you are commenting on his defense, when you don't watch enough Knick games to prove it except by the stat sheet, which is a very inaccurate in proving things like this. Sweetney is a very underrated defender. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I can agree with that. But is it really smart for one of the leagues biggest markets to build around an undersized power foward? The Clippers did it but Brand is a different player, everyone can agree to that. I'm sure Sweetney is one of the important pieces of the future but he is not the franchise.</div> You keep on mentioning his lack of height, but you don't realize how he utilizes his rebounding ability, or his size to an advantage. How do you know that you can not build a franchise around him. From what he shows us night after night, we can. You are also unaware of this mans work ethic. He followed an NBA legend and post up great, Mark Aguire anywhere he went during the summer. Tremendous work ethic especially for someone that young. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">THIS TRADE STINKS MORE THE RAPTORS Can we get a damn poll going on this??</div> I would but, I don't know how to.
I really think that this would help out the Knicks. Look at the lineup that they would have: PG- Stephon Marbury SG- Jamal Crawford SF- Jalen Rose PF- Donyell Marshall C- Nazr Mohammed 6 Men- Allan Houston' This team would takeover the Atlantic and they would get to the playoffs.
Not enough shots to go around though Sonics1, Marbury, Crawford, and Rose will need to take many shots, and what would that do for the rest of the team. Also what will it do for our role players that deserve some shots.
