Kobe or Lebron? Toughy

I don't know what happened but, I noticed that you just came to JustBBall exactly 8 days ago. Already you are in a bit of trouble? I am not a mod/admin or anything like that but, can't we all just get along? I have no idea what happened between you two but, I suggest you guys just squash it. From what I read bewteen both of you, immaturity was involved on both sides. I really want to hear some valid arguments on why James is better than Kobe and I am not a Kobe worshipper so you can at least answer to me.

I see you trying to avoid conflicts which is good. You don't have to ever be friends with Kobe 8 Ball, (although it would be nice if we all were ) however, you have to respect him and vice versa. I think it is only fair for everyone to hear your reasoning.

 

LeBron! Kobe is a ball hog!

 

It is almost impossible to say who's better. It depends on the person and on what he thinks is a more for the a player to be better. Some might factor in shooting % more than steals and vice versa for example. It all depends on the persons idea of which skills are more important. And there are many things to factor in when choosing. There are things from scoring to something as dribbling the ball. There also intangibles like leadership, defense, experience,instincts, clutchness etc. You can't mesure any of these things. Can you mesure how "clutch" a player is?No When you say Kobes' defense is better than Lebron's, thats just a opinion and not a fact. Most of the posts are all based on assumptions and opinions and not facts. That's why there's no real right of wrong answer.

But if was a GM and was looking to build a franchise around one of these players, I would choose Lebron based on the assumption that he will continue to improve as a player.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually it is fact Kobe is a tremendous clutch player and is also the better defensive player. Kobe Bryant has made game winning plays in regular season and post season games, including the finals. If you need a stat, you would just have to count the number of gaming winning baskets Kobe has made versus other players. In fairness to LeBron, we have yet to see him put in clutch post-season situations. So because he has yet to prove it, and Kobe has, Kobe is the better clutch performer. </div>

As you said Lebron has yet to have the chance to prove he is clutch and Kobe has. Until he has the chance to prove it, we can't say Kobe is the better clutch performer because it is unknown. How can that be a fact?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">For defense, Kobe has been 1st Team Defense and 2nd Team. Aside from those accolades, you just have to watch a lot of footage. Right now, it is a fact Kobe is a much better defender than LeBron.</div>

Those awards were voted by people. He was awarded those awards because the voters opinion was that he deserve it. That was a opinion and again not a fact. As for footage, I agree that is one way of deciding. I know Kobe's defense is better but by how much? Can that be the deciding factor for saying who's better?

 

Well, if lebron was a better defender.....wouldnt he have gotten the nod, instead of kobe? Not to mention Kobe has been a ALL WORLD defender for multiple years in a row.

So should we discredit MJ as a defender because he was on the team 8 or 9 times if im not mistaken. You dont get put on there by accident, your there because when it comes down to it....you clamp down on the other teams biggest threat. To say lebron's defense is like kobes is foolish, until lebron gets any notice on his D...it will be like that, until lebenon is on the ALL NBA team and ALL NBA defensive team....there is no comparision on the Defensive end.

As for clutch>? haha dont even go there, only 1 person in the league i would even consider being more clutch then Kobe and thats Reggie....track records speak for themselves, not even an argument.

For references...

Defense...March,15th 2004, LA.vs.Orl. Kobe literally SHUT Tmac down last year in the last game they played each other, Tmac had 30+ pts in the 1st half....kobe had like 2 or 3....Kobe went to phil and told him he wanted to cover Tmac in the second half, Phil didnt like the idea because he needed kobe to be rested more for offense....kobe assured him he would be fine.

Kobe proceeded to shut Tmac to under 6 pts in the 3rd, 4th and overtime....all the while Kobe put on one of the greatest performences of his career by scoring finishing the game outscoring Tmac with 37 second half pts, 24 pts in the 4th alone! and took the game into OT where the lakers defeated the magic in comeback fashion. I have this game on tape, and if you would like...look up that game, the last one of 03-04 between la and magic, proof is all there...

Kobe locked down one of the best scorers in the league and proved what seperates himself from every guard since Jordan.....that simple.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Those people, happen to be Kobe's peers. All 29 NBA coaches vote for the choices, so their consensus opinion takes on a lot more meaning than say the vote of a fan. They experience first hand the impact Kobe has on their team in the game, and also in preparing their offense against Kobe. These same coaches also voted Artest, Garnett, Bowen, and Big Ben to the 1st team All Defense. So for Kobe to be regarded in the same caliber as those players is a clear cut indication of how good Kobe is on defense. </div>

That was last year, Lebron's defense has improve since then. Kobe's defense was better than Lebron's last year but it hasn't been proven this year. And the fact that the coaches are the one who vote doesn't mean that their votes are correct. It only gives them more credibility. Also Kobe was the player who got the least votes of the players in the all-defensive first team. That isn't relavent but it's just to let you know.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The fact LeBron has not proven it, and Kobe has, makes Kobe the better clutch player doesn't it?

For example, the fact Bill Gates is the richest man in the world proves he's a great business man. The fact there's an 18 year old software programmer who hasn't entered the business world yet and may become the richest man someday, doesn't take away from the the FACT, Bill Gates is a greater business man.</div>

Kobe is the better clutch performer until proven otherwise but that doesn't take away the possibilty that Lebron could be better. My point is, it is possible that Lebron is a better clutch performer but because he hasn't had the chance to prove it yet, we don't know if he is or not.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So should we discredit MJ as a defender because he was on the team 8 or 9 times if im not mistaken. You dont get put on there by accident, your there because when it comes down to it....you clamp down on the other teams biggest threat. To say lebron's defense is like kobes is foolish, until lebron gets any notice on his D...it will be like that, until lebenon is on the ALL NBA team and ALL NBA defensive team....there is no comparision on the Defensive end.</div>

I didn't discredit anybodies' defense and I didn't compare that Lebron's defense is like Kobes or said that he is better. My original point is that saying Kobes defense is better than Lebron's is only a opinion.

 

True, most of this argument is mere opinion. That is why i hate "arguing" whos better regaurdless who it is...9 out of 10 times its a unfair argument, just like the guy said on espn last night. Comparing Lebron to Kobe is unfair to both people, Kobe is the present and Lebron is the future, they both are arguably the 2 of the most talented swingmen of all time, in such a short period.

Of course im a huge kobe fan, but i try to remain unbiased in discussions. I respect both of their games, but im my personal oppinion Kobe Bryant is the best perimiter player in the league and arguably the best all around player in the league since MJ.

 

I'm not trying to be biasedm but I'd take LeBron at this point. It's a toigh choice to pick between these two because they're two of the rising stars in this league, and you couldn't go wrong with either one.

But anyways, I took LeBron because he's such a great "team" player and makes his teamates so much better. 25 pts a game, 7 assists per game, and 7 boards a game. Can you tell me another player in the league right now putting those kinds of numbers up?(Kobe=27 ppg 6rpg/6apg) is the closest Look at what LeBron has done with Gooden- 14 ppg 9 rpg. Gooden hasn't done this good until this year when he started playing with LeBron, so I hope you all see what I'm tryin' to say...

 

Defense...March,15th 2004, LA.vs.Orl. Kobe literally SHUT Tmac down last year in the last game they played each other, Tmac had 30+ pts in the 1st half....kobe had like 2 or 3....Kobe went to phil and told him he wanted to cover Tmac in the second half, Phil didnt like the idea because he needed kobe to be rested more for offense....kobe assured him he would be fine.

Kobe proceeded to shut Tmac to under 6 pts in the 3rd, 4th and overtime....all the while Kobe put on one of the greatest performences of his career by scoring finishing the game outscoring Tmac with 37 second half pts, 24 pts in the 4th alone! and took the game into OT where the lakers defeated the magic in comeback fashion. I have this game on tape, and if you would like...look up that game, the last one of 03-04 between la and magic, proof is all there...

Kobe locked down one of the best scorers in the league and proved what seperates himself from every guard since Jordan.....that simple.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well LeBron shoots a higher FG%. Well LeBron James role is to not attack from the perimeter. The Cavs' offense is designed to take advantage of what he does best, which is attack the hoop. If you watch Cleveland games, LeBron scores most of his points in the paint, while Kobe does most of his damage from the perimeter. Kobe is having a bad year FG% wise, but most of his struggles happened in the first month of the season. He's also had to shoot the Lakers back in a lot of games, so his 3pt shooting is up from 3.3 last year to 5.8 this year. Taking that many shots behind-the-arc is going to have a profound effect on your FG%.</div>
Actually one of the main reason's Lebron shoots better is because out of the top scorers, he's a Top 3 player [I think he's number 1] in the leauge in inside percentage, Lebron has 65% of his shots as jumpers, while Kobe has 74%, shooting the same amount of shots, it means Kobe would take about 2 more jumpshots a game. Lebron has an eFG% of 39% on jumpers, while Kobe shoots an eFG% of 41% on jumpers.

The big difference is in Lebron's ability to finish. Lebron shoots a whooping 69.7% on close shots, while Kobe shoots an okay 49.7%, that's a 20% difference. On inside shots, Lebron shoots another killer 76.2%, while Kobe shoots 57.1%, another 20% difference. Lebron just has the ability to finish like a monster. Yes Kobe takes more three's, but looking at their eFG%, Lebron's is 51.8%, and Kobe's is 45.3% which is bad, that's worse than what Baron Davis' was last year which wasn't even too bad at 46.2%. Kobe's last season was 46.8%, and his career high eFG% was 48.8% in 99-00.

Now Kobe does draw fouls very well, so we'll have to give him props for that, his TS% [True scoring%] is 52.4%, while Lebron's is 54.9%.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">However, for his career, Kobe is averaging 45% from the field, while LeBron is at 44.4%. </div>
That is a very small difference though, and last year was Lebron's rookie year, Kobe himself didn't get past the 42% barrier till his third year.

I think it's a fact that Kobe is a better defender than Lebron, just watching them it's evident, and it's shown even by numbers. While I wouldn't say Kobe is a first team defender, I think he's a constant 2nd team defender. This season he's faced more of what other guys have had to where you can't guard the other teams best perimeter player all game with you being the main offensive option, and he's had defensive lapses, like letting guys like Bruce Bowen and Doug Christie score on him easily. With all that, Kobe is still a much better defender.

Kobe gives up a PER of 12.5 to his opponents, and allows them to shoot an eFG% of 43.1%. Lebron gives up a PER of 18.1 to his opponents, and allows them to shoot an eFG% of 48.4%, that's a very very huge gap defensively. If Kobe's opponents are shooting an eFG% of 43.1%, he's basically holding them to 40-41% shooting from the field on average, while Lebron is allowing 45-46% shooting from the field.

Clutch wise, I don't know anymore, history say's Kobe, though you could say he misses a whole lot down the stretch even though he makes some big ones. His crunch time eFG% last season was 44.5% [39.6% FG], and in 02-03, eFG% 42.4% [39.6% FG]. I'd like to see how Kobe's clutch abilities come along this season though. He hasn't been clutch this season at all, and to tell the truth, he's been terrible in crunch time, where he's shot an eFG% of 26.3% [23.7% FG], and doesn't have an increase in foul drawing down the stretch, actually has a decrease from 16.2% to 15.7% in crunch time. In comparison, Lebron has shot an eFG% of 47.7% in crunch time, and has a 3% increase in his foul drawing rate.

An example of what would be considered very good clutch play: Gilbert Arenas, for the year he's has a eFG% of 49.9%, and draws fouls at a 15.5% rate, he's an extremely efficient scorer, one of the best in the league. In crunch time, he shoots an eFG% of 52%, and draws fouls at a 23.1% rate [which would be about 3rd among guards, and 10th overall in the league for crunch time], that is clutch play right there.

 

og15 is the GOD of numbers.

 

Og where do you get all of these numbers? it's fascinating.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm going to guess from 82games.com. They do a great job of statistics and calculating player efficiency etc. </div>

Yha man nice job. With the statistics it is easier to see the true numbers and how they match up against eachother. Good Work