Kobe or Lebron? Toughy

Yeah, where do you get those numbers from og15?

I bet you know how many steps Kobe took this season, and stuff like that too

 

Kobe all the way.... LeBron is a great player, but Kobe can score in a tough situation, he is automatic, he can drop 20+ even on an off-day or being double teamed for the whole game.
The only thing LeBron is better than Kobe at is unselfishness. Once he fixes that attitude, undoubtly he will be a lot better of a player than he is now. He is capable of a 20pt 10ast average.

 

I say LeBron. Kobe is still young but, LeBron is 20. Kobe is having problems without Shaq despite how good he is

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He is capable of a 20pt 10ast average.</div>
You make it sound so easy, no he isn't, Kobe isn't a good enough passer to average 10 assists, Nash this season, and Kidd a few seasons ago have been the only people to average 10 assists in a while. Averaging 10 assists is harder than averaging 25 points or averaging 13 rebounds.

Like shapecity said, from 82games, and some others I calculate myself.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">You make it sound so easy, no he isn't, Kobe isn't a good enough passer to average 10 assists, Nash this season, and Kidd a few seasons ago have been the only people to average 10 assists in a while. Averaging 10 assists is harder than averaging 25 points or averaging 13 rebounds.

Like shapecity said, from 82games, and some others I calculate myself.</div>

You're telling me that for a player of Kobe's size its easier to average 13 rpg then 10 apg. You've got to be kidding me. Kobe can very easily average 10 apg. If his teamates convert on aobut 40% of his dishes, In this case when hes double teamed and he kicks it out to Chucky or caron or inside to Mihm.

He would be averaging way more than 10 assists. For example last night Chucky Atkins took 13 3pt attempts, he made 5 fro mthose 13 about 10 of them were set up by Kobe but he missed about 8 of them that were set up by Kobe.

It all has to do with team chemistry and knocking down your wide open shots.

 

Kobe or LeBron??? I am taking LeBron. This is his second year in the league and he is far more advanced than Kobe was at this stage of his career. They have similar games, similar stats, similar bodies and similar work ethics. Since this is the case, I would expect LeBron to continue improving the way Kobe has throughout his career. Given the fact that he is better than Kobe was at this point makes me think he will be a better player when he is in his 6th season. Aside from the fact that Kobe has developed a killer instinct to close out games, he has also developed an attitude problem which screams "I am good, I know it and goddamn it if you don't i will show you!" I think he gets caught up personally trying to show up others. I am not hating on him, but that is how he comes across and while having that attitude helps you to a point, it also hurts you. Its a double edged sword. So, to summarise and give everyone else something more to write about, I am taking LeBron James of the Cleveland Cavaliers. And to add fuel to the fire, it wasn't even close.

 

^Kobe is about 230-235 lbs now, he's definately bigger than 220 lbs, Kobe's a pretty big guy himself.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're telling me that for a player of Kobe's size its easier to average 13 rpg then 10 apg. You've got to be kidding me. Kobe can very easily average 10 apg. If his teamates convert on aobut 40% of his dishes, In this case when hes double teamed and he kicks it out to Chucky or caron or inside to Mihm.

He would be averaging way more than 10 assists. For example last night Chucky Atkins took 13 3pt attempts, he made 5 fro mthose 13 about 10 of them were set up by Kobe but he missed about 8 of them that were set up by Kobe.

It all has to do with team chemistry and knocking down your wide open shots.</div>
I meant in a general case, its easier for a big man to average 13 rebounds, or for a player to average 25 points, than for a guard to average 10 assists, but the Lakers shoot higher than 40%, so unless Kobe was to make almost every single pass in the game he won't be averaging 10 assists, or if he did, he'd be setting very high standards in the new record for turnovers. Like I've said, it's hard enough for PG's like Kidd and Nash who are much better passers to do it, let alone a SG.

 

This isn't that hard of a decision. I would rather have LeBron on my team rather than Kobe any day.

 

Kobe Bryant helped the lakers to 3 rings.....and people act like shaq was the only one doing things to get those rings ....."smh"

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DMKfromTPL:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kobe Bryant helped the lakers to 3 rings.....and people act like shaq was the only one doing things to get those rings ....."smh"</div>

True Kobe helped lead the Lakers to three rings, in years before. But he acted like a crybaby last year. IMO Gary Payton and Kobe's selfishness cost the Lakers the championship. There were a a lot of things going on behind the scenes that not everyone knew about at the time. Kobe is truely a great player and I give him credit but I would rather have LeBron on my team.

Why? LeBron is only 20 years old and has already proven that he is a candidate for MVP and can play with the great players in the leauge like Kobe and McGrady. LeBron does it all on the court. He makes his teammates better, he can score at will, plays great defense, rebounds and can play just about any position on the floor. I just think that LeBron has the potential to become one of the best players of all time. You can sit here all day and argue the point that Kobe has more rings and that makes him better than LeBron. Kobe has won 3 rings, but look what kind of players he played with to get those three rings. I totally disagree with that. IMO rings do not make players. Both Kobe and LeBron are great players but I think LeBron has been playing better than kobe this year and that he will develop into a better player than Kobe is.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AA13:</div><div class="quote_post"> True Kobe helped lead the Lakers to three rings, in years before. But he acted like a crybaby last year. IMO Gary Payton and Kobe's selfishness cost the Lakers the championship. There were a a lot of things going on behind the scenes that not everyone knew about at the time. Kobe is truely a great player and I give him credit but I would rather have LeBron on my team.</div>

Kobe was a crybaby last year? Hahaha, that's a good one. Shaq was the crybaby. In one preseason game last season, Shaq dunked it and screamed "You gonna give me my money now?!" The whole season long Shaq was complaining for an unreasonable amont of money on his extension.

Kobe's selfishness? He was running the screen-n-roll with Malone to perfection, hitting Karl for open passes. He was the best one on the team at getting the ball into Shaq.

Kobe definitely deserves credit for helping the Lakers to 3 titles. He was the one hitting all the clutch shots after Shaq would miss his free-throws. Kobe bailed the Lakers out several times.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron does it all on the court. He makes his teammates better, he can score at will, plays great defense, rebounds and can play just about any position on the floor. I just think that LeBron has the potential to become one of the best players of all time. You can sit here all day and argue the point that Kobe has more rings and that makes him better than LeBron. Kobe has won 3 rings, but look what kind of players he played with to get those three rings. I totally disagree with that. IMO rings do not make players. Both Kobe and LeBron are great players but I think LeBron has been playing better than kobe this year and that he will develop into a better player than Kobe is.</div>

True, rings does not neccesarily define a player's greatness, but it can be a factor.

And when you say that Lebron plays great defense, well so does Kobe. Hasn't Kobe been all-1st team defense for a few years now? Kobe makes his teammates better too. Look at Mihm, Butler, Atkins, Jones...he makes them all better.

And isn't this argument about who is the better player RIGHT NOW? Not who the better player will be at the end of their careers..

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
Both are great players, and you can't go wrong with either player, but I still have not read a legit arguement why LeBron is better now. I don't think there is one.</div>

The Cavs can do a much better job building around Lebron's skill set, in my opinion. If they had a couple of very good outside shooters, LeBron would be even more effective than he is.

There are many aspects of the game in which LeBron is better than Kobe. He's a better passer, a better rebounder, a better finisher around the basket, a more efficient scorer, less turnover-prone, and better on a fast break. Kobe is a better perimeter scorer and is better at getting his own shot off. Kobe might have more shot-types in his repetoire and has a more sophisticated post-game (including a deadly turnaround jumper). Kobe is a good one-on-one defender (though quicker guards can give him trouble), whereas LeBron is more of a roamer on defense who uses his incredible length and quickness to get deflections.

I'd say that LeBron is better, and by that I mean I'd rather have him on my team in a big game than Kobe. I just think his skills would give me a better shot at winning a game. When Kobe gets in his zone, though, he's the most unstoppable perimeter player in the game. And, of course, he has the big game experience. But LeBron is more consistent, more stable, and less streaky. That puts him ahead of Kobe, in my mind.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">
I disagree with the bold. No way is LeBron a better finisher at the basket, both can dunk, both can elevate over defenders, and both are very creative. What seperates Kobe as the better finisher around the basket, is his post up game. Kobe is one of the best scorers in the post and has four or five go to moves in the paint, LeBron has no post up game at all. I'm sure LeBron will develop it, but right now he finishes more with dunks than anything else around the basket. Basically, Kobe can do everything around the basket LeBron can, but you cannot say the same for Lebron because he has no post moves.</div>

I definitely have to disagree with you on this. I think LeBron is a far more effective inside scorer. You say he has no post game, and while its true that Kobe some more moves and more developed foot-work, LeBron's strength and superior body control in the air gives him a great advantage. A year ago, I'd agree with you that LeBron doesn't have a post game. But now, he'll post up quite often. The way he does it is somewhat reminiscent of Charles Barkely. He'll patiently survey the floor and wait for any double teams and find the open man; if that's not there he'll bang hard inside and get off a quick banker or he'll step back and shoot a fadeaway.

By analogy, I'd say that LeBron is to Shaq as Kobe is to Hakeem. You could argue that Kobe is a more skilled and more clever post up player, but I think LeBron is simply more effective due to his physical gifts.

I think the stats back me up on this as well. Check out these two pages:
Kobe's stat page
LeBron's stat page

Kobe takes 27% of his shots inside (5% being dunks). His fg% on inside shots is 57.4%. 25% of those shots are assisted (so, he's creating his own shot 3/4 of the time).

By contrast, Lebron takes 35% of his shots inside (9% being dunks). His fg% on inside shots is a whopping 75%, including 68% on inside shots that aren't dunks or tip-ins. LeBron gets assisted on 46% of inside shots, however, so he's not creating for himself as often.

Kobe shoots only 49.7% on insides shots that aren't dunks or tip-ins.

I'd be interested to see numbers on his shooting percentage on shots he creates for himself inside. Just based on my own observation from watch Cavs and Lakers games this year, I'd guess that its still higher than Kobe's.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">More efficient scorer, I give the edge again to Kobe. I'm not sure what your definition is, maybe you are looking at just FG%. It's harder to really compare the more efficient scorer, because they play a different style of basketball. LeBron is a slasher, Kobe is more of a perimeter shooter. Since Kobe shoots more from the perimeter, of course his FG% will be lower, but it's a deceiving number to look at.

My definition of an efficient scorer is broken down into the four ways a player can score the basket, inside the paint, mid range jumpers, 3pts, and free throw.</div>

The statistic I look at to meaure efficiency as a scorer is PSA (points scored per attempt). It takes into account free-throw shooting and 3-point shots. It approximates the number of points scored per field goal attempt and shot attempt on which the player got fouled with no "And-1". The first part (field goal attempts) are of course readily available, but the second part has to be approximated as .44 * free throw attempts. That's the approximation used by many reputable NBA staticians (like Dean Oliver and John Hollinger) and its believed to be fairly accurate.

Kobe Bryant's PSA rating this season is: 1.09

Even though Kobe is shooting a low percentage this year, his PSA is fairly good because he's getting over 11 free attempts a game this year. Interestingly enough, throughout his career his PSA has been very steady -- either 1.09 or 1.10.

LeBron James's PSA rating this season is: 1.12

LeBron doesn't get to the line as often and doesn't shoot as high percentage when he's there, but he's been able to scorer so efficiently from the field that his PSA is very good regardless. His rookie year, his PSA was only .98, so there is a huge improvement in scoring efficiency for LeBron this year.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Finally better on the fast break. I would call it a draw, both are unstoppable on a fast break.</div>

LeBron has greater foot speed, is a better finisher at the basket, and is also a better passer on the break than Kobe in my opinion. So I give him the clear edge in this area. I honestly don't think its even close.

 

LBJ is better today

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Cypher:</div><div class="quote_post">I would like to see other teams defend LeBron just like they defend Kobe. I'm really curious if Lebron would still put up that kind of numbers, especially such a good shooting percentage if he would be double or triple teamed all game long.

But when you watch LeBron play right now he just makes the game look so easy. He's not such a complicated player as Kobe is sometimes, but then I ask myself if that would be different if Lebron would have to face the same defensive patterns as Kobe.

I really don't know whom I'd pick out of these two, but considering the pressure LeBron had to play under his whole NBA career and given a steady development I'd probably pick him ahead of Kobe.</div>

Other teams cant double /triple him all game long because he is such a good passer (over 7 apg from the SF position) that he would kill them with his passing if doubled. LBJ is a better player right now, his team is doing better with worse players and numberwise he is also much better

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting the MDE:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe was a crybaby last year? Hahaha, that's a good one. Shaq was the crybaby. In one preseason game last season, Shaq dunked it and screamed "You gonna give me my money now?!" The whole season long Shaq was complaining for an unreasonable amont of money on his extension.

Kobe's selfishness? He was running the screen-n-roll with Malone to perfection, hitting Karl for open passes. He was the best one on the team at getting the ball into Shaq.

Kobe definitely deserves credit for helping the Lakers to 3 titles. He was the one hitting all the clutch shots after Shaq would miss his free-throws. Kobe bailed the Lakers out several times</div>

The contrat Shaq was asking for wasn't unreasonable. Plus he's worth any amount of money. The best one on the team at getting Shaq the ball was Gary Payton. Shaq and Payton worked well together and Malone and Kobe worked well together. Kobe DOES deserve credit for helping the Lakers win 3 titles but if it wasn't for Shaq the Lakers would never have been in the position to win any of the three titles.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting the MDE:</div><div class="quote_post">True, rings does not neccesarily define a player's greatness, but it can be a factor.

And when you say that Lebron plays great defense, well so does Kobe. Hasn't Kobe been all-1st team defense for a few years now? Kobe makes his teammates better too. Look at Mihm, Butler, Atkins, Jones...he makes them all better.

And isn't this argument about who is the better player RIGHT NOW? Not who the better player will be at the end of their careers..</div>

Kobe has been selected to the defensive team because he has been in the leauge longer and has accomplished more.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly. The best player now is Kobe.

AAI3, you mentioned LeBron has proven he can play with other superstars. I don't understand that statement, because the second best player on the Cavs is Big 'Z' and I would hardly consider him a superstar. Not to say he couldn't play with a superstar, but that statement is your opinion and not fact.

Also keep in mind, prior to this season, the Laker team was built around Shaq, not Kobe. The Lakers are still a season or two away from having their squad built around Kobe, to maximize his skills. The Cavs on the otherhand have a had a headstart in building around LeBron's skill set, which is one of the main reasons he's having a monster season.

Both are great players, and you can't go wrong with either player, but I still have not read a legit arguement why LeBron is better now. I don't think there is one.</div>

What I mean when I say that LeBron can play with superstars is that he plays up to their level. You are absolutly right, the Lakers still have to build the team around Kobe while Cleveland is built around LeBron. This results in LeBron having a monster season which is making him better.

I'm just expressing my opinions about who I think is better. They are both great players and almost unstoppable. I don't really think there is a legitament argument either, all we have is opinions. We'll have to wait until both of their careers are over before we can start to compare them.