In this new book, The Jump, on amazon.com... Marbury?s cousin and Sebastian?s brother, Danny Turner, a Lincoln High assistant coach, said Stephon admitted to him in two different phone calls that he had pushed Isiah to make the Van Horn trade. ?Stephon told me that,? Turner said. ?He said, ?Yo, I got Van Horn.?? Telfair?s father, Otis: ?And that was the worst thing the Knicks did. Everybody knows Stephon was involved in that. I told you all, when Stephon came to the Knicks. Didn?t I say Van Horn was on his way out?" [red]* Shameless spam link removed. -Mel[/red]
Well this is nothing new. Everyone knew Marbury had issues with Van Horn and that Van Horn would probably leave. It's too bad Marbury couldnt see past his dislike of Van Horn and just play basketball. We wouldnt have the mess we have right now. But what can you do? It's too late to do anything about it now. Marbury sure is paying for his unprofessionalism right now since once again he's losing. We could have had Houston ready right now and a good team but we all have to pay for Marbury's pettiness. I hope he gets traded soon.
Wow, I am very dissapointed. Don't you go ot the NBA to play basketball? I mean if I didn't like someone on my team but, I was wining with him, isn't that the most important thing. I mean Nazr Mohammed alone is not suitable for Van Horn. Tim Thomas has not been playing so he doesn't even count. It was beautiful watching KVH rain down 3's and even more beautiful watching him and Houston. Didn't we have that 5 game win streak including a big win against the Pacers? That showed what we were capable of. That's exactly why I don't really have that much respect for Marbury. I wish Isiah wasn't on his meat because anyone with a pair of eyes, can see Marbury=Loser, everywhere he goes the team does better and the team he's on does worse. Marbury said that I'll be judged by how many wins we have crap. If clearly we were wining with KVH, why would it matter? KVH was doing his thing when he was in NY! Anyway, this is spilled milk and unless we get a real GM instead of one who's afraid not to listen to our "franchise player" then we are destined for failure. Plain and simple.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Well this is nothing new. Everyone knew Marbury had issues with Van Horn and that Van Horn would probably leave. It's too bad Marbury couldnt see past his dislike of Van Horn and just play basketball. We wouldnt have the mess we have right now. But what can you do? It's too late to do anything about it now. Marbury sure is paying for his unprofessionalism right now since once again he's losing. We could have had Houston ready right now and a good team but we all have to pay for Marbury's pettiness. I hope he gets traded soon.</div> This is irrelevant, but you really need to stop riding Houston. He's a great player who's had a great career, but christ... I'm pretty sure that by now, everyone knows it's going to be impossible to win a championship untill Marbury's contract is up unless 1) we get him another all-star to play with or 2) we get him out of New York. He's selfish, egotistical, and a great natural athlete. The latter will bolster your stat sheet, and the other two will keep your team from succeeded. Do we have the talent to get to the finals in the east? You bet your ass we do. Will we as long as we have these kinds of things happening? Fat chance.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow, I am very dissapointed. Don't you go ot the NBA to play basketball? I mean if I didn't like someone on my team but, I was wining with him, isn't that the most important thing. I mean Nazr Mohammed alone is not suitable for Van Horn. Tim Thomas has not been playing so he doesn't even count. It was beautiful watching KVH rain down 3's and even more beautiful watching him and Houston. Didn't we have that 5 game win streak including a big win against the Pacers? That showed what we were capable of. That's exactly why I don't really have that much respect for Marbury. I wish Isiah wasn't on his meat because anyone with a pair of eyes, can see Marbury=Loser, everywhere he goes the team does better and the team he's on does worse. Marbury said that I'll be judged by how many wins we have crap. If clearly we were wining with KVH, why would it matter? KVH was doing his thing when he was in NY! Anyway, this is spilled milk and unless we get a real GM instead of one who's afraid not to listen to our "franchise player" then we are destined for failure. Plain and simple.</div> You make KVH sound heads and tails better than what he was traded for. Fact of the matter is Van Horn is a weak defender that will give you 16 and 7. Nazr alone is giving you 11 and 8 and isnt has big a defencive liability, besides 7 footers are hard to find and worth double their stats if they're decent. Tim Thomas is playing poorly, sure no doubt. But he's still chipping in 10 points and 4 boards.....crappy, but it still ends up dwarfing KVH's stats in conjunction with Nazr's. Regardless, Tim was a risk. He has the talent to do as well as KVH on offence and equally has poorly on defence, PLUS you'd get a decent big man. Tim played almost has good as KVH was last year, but this year has fallen off stat wise and found himself in the dog house abit. Still...KVH's contract was 2 million more than Tims so that helps the Knicks out some. Hindsight is always 20/20. At the time I think it was a good move by the Knicks, and at the time nearly every JBB poster that was in the Tim Thomas trade thread felt it was a good move by the Knicks. http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...ighlight=Thomas
Tribute H20 is absolutely correct, everybody knew Steph & KVH would not co-exist on the same team, well before the deal was made to bring Steph home from PHX. I mean Van Horn went on record in the Newspaper saying that Marbury was the most selfish point guard he had ever played with in his career, when Steph got dealt from NJ to PHX. Rick Majearus, Van Horn's college coach said on Mike & the Mad dog 2 or 3 years ago that the downfall of Van Horn's NBA career was when the Nets brung Marbury in to play alongside him. So I mean I dont know how anyone ever expected them to last. Zeke always justifies the Tim Thomas/Van Horn deal by saying it open up the Knicks acquiring Narz, while that is very well true, we all know the deal was more or less to keep the franchise player happy. Anyway, my question is what is the underline motives of the Telfair family for bring this out now. I think Marbury has had a poor relationship with that part of his family over the past couple of years, so that could have something to do with this story being apart of this book. And 02Civic, your right alot of people did think this was a quality move. But I didnt like it from the start because the move wasnt made for the right reasons. Tim Thomas isnt as good playing without the ball as Van Horn. And in normal cases when you have a pg that dominates the ball like Steph you need guys who can move without the ball, shoot the spot up jumper well, two things that Van Horn does much better then TT. But niether Steph nor Zeke liked Van Horn. But honestly the deal is a wash this year because of offcourt problems & injury Tim Thomas really stinks. And Van Horn has had a major injury & since coming back, he stinks too this year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post"> And 02Civic, your right alot of people did think this was a quality move. But I didnt like it from the start because the move wasnt made for the right reasons. Tim Thomas isnt as good playing without the ball as Van Horn. And in normal cases when you have a pg that dominates the ball like Steph you need guys who can move without the ball, shoot the spot up jumper well, two things that Van Horn does much better then TT. But niether Steph nor Zeke liked Van Horn. But honestly the deal is a wash this year because of offcourt problems & injury Tim Thomas really stinks. And Van Horn has had a major injury & since coming back, he stinks too this year.</div> My point exactly. So no one should be complaining about trading away KVH because of all his problems(being injured, being expensive, and being crappy) End of the day...would you trade Nazr for KVH straight up? Everyone says no...so Isiah made a good trade. Whether it was because of Marbury or not...it was a good trade. If not for that trade you'd have Doleac starting at center and be even worse off. Nazr&TT < KVH&Doleac mrj18? dont you agree?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">My point exactly. So no one should be complaining about trading away KVH because of all his problems(being injured, being expensive, and being crappy) End of the day...would you trade Nazr for KVH straight up? Everyone says no...so Isiah made a good trade. Whether it was because of Marbury or not...it was a good trade. If not for that trade you'd have Doleac starting at center and be even worse off. Nazr&TT < KVH&Doleac mrj18? dont you agree?</div> KVH was playing very well in NY. He also had this little stretch in which he had I think 9 consecutive 20+ performances. Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I don't think so. He was having a career year in NY. He was expensive but the fact that we traded him for TT gives us an expensive with much less skills. Who would you rather take? Nazr was a third string center in struggling Atlanta I am very sure there wase another way to get him without giving up one of our most consistent players. No one predicted TT would suck at this level and maybe it looked better at first but, the fact of the matter is we traded a blossoming and consistent KVH, a much improved Doleac, for a scrub and a decent center. Overall we lost, more rebounding, assists, points, a floor spreader and even more important...chemistry. It was pitiful watching these Knicks that barely knew each other. It was a bad trade for us. We could have gotten Mohammed a different way, and even if we couldn't Mutombo could have done a good job. Baker was alright too and if worse came to worse, Kurt could have played center for us.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Platehpus:</div><div class="quote_post">This is irrelevant, but you really need to stop riding Houston. He's a great player who's had a great career, but christ...</div> Do me a favor and watch how you talk to me from now on. That is relevant. Houston is my favorite player and everything I say regarding him is correct. If you dont like the fact that I like to talk about him keep it to yourself. Thank you in advance. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">My point exactly. So no one should be complaining about trading away KVH because of all his problems(being injured, being expensive, and being crappy) End of the day...would you trade Nazr for KVH straight up? Everyone says no...so Isiah made a good trade. Whether it was because of Marbury or not...it was a good trade. If not for that trade you'd have Doleac starting at center and be even worse off. Nazr&TT < KVH&Doleac mrj18? dont you agree?</div> First off Van Horn before he got injured was averaging a double double. I've never heard of anyone complain about Van Horn's contract. It's pretty reasonable in a league full of players with unreasonable contracts. And he was shooting at a very high percentage from behind the arc as well. Something like 45% which was one of highest percentages at the time. So no I wouldnt call Van Horn crappy. I wasnt on this forum when the Van Horn trade went down but as soon as I found out about it I was sick to my stomach. Whoever thought it was even a decent trade obviously didnt know what they were talking about, too obsessed with athleticism without taking into account anything else or at the very least werent familiar with the Knicks at the time. Personally I'd rather have Van Horn and Doleac right now. Chemistry is as important if not more important than the actual players(see: 2004 NBA Finals). A team of mediocre players with lots of chemistry will easily beat a team with great players but with little chemistry. There are no numbers to measure chemistry and you cant explain it but you know it when you see it and the Knicks had it before the Van Horn trade. Ever since the Van Horn trade things have gone south for the Knicks and anybody who watched the Knicks for the entire season last year knows it. And oh yeah just for the record: Van Horn,Doleac>TT, Nazr.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Do me a favor and watch how you talk to me from now on. That is relevant. Houston is my favorite player and everything I say regarding him is correct. If you dont like the fact that I like to talk about him keep it to yourself. Thank you in advance. </div> C'mon guys, let's cool it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First off Van Horn before he got injured was averaging a double double. I've never heard of anyone complain about Van Horn's contract. It's pretty reasonable in a league full of players with unreasonable contracts. And he was shooting at a very high percentage from behind the arc as well. Something like 45% which was one of highest percentages at the time. So no I wouldnt call Van Horn crappy. I wasnt on this forum when the Van Horn trade went down but as soon as I found out about it I was sick to my stomach. Whoever thought it was even a decent trade obviously didnt know what they were talking about, too obsessed with athleticism without taking into account anything else or at the very least werent familiar with the Knicks at the time. Personally I'd rather have Van Horn and Doleac right now. Chemistry is as important if not more important than the actual players(see: 2004 NBA Finals). A team of mediocre players with lots of chemistry will easily beat a team with great players but with little chemistry. There are no numbers to measure chemistry and you cant explain it but you know it when you see it and the Knicks had it before the Van Horn trade. Ever since the Van Horn trade things have gone south for the Knicks and anybody who watched the Knicks for the entire season last year knows it. And oh yeah just for the record: Van Horn,Doleac>TT, Nazr.</div> Everything I said in my post. I'm telling you, good minds think alike
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Everything I said in my post. I'm telling you, good minds think alike </div> Good??? I dont know, I was thinking more along great.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">KVH was playing very well in NY. He also had this little stretch in which he had I think 9 consecutive 20+ performances. Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I don't think so. He was having a career year in NY. He was expensive but the fact that we traded him for TT gives us an expensive with much less skills. Who would you rather take? Nazr was a third string center in struggling Atlanta I am very sure there wase another way to get him without giving up one of our most consistent players. No one predicted TT would suck at this level and maybe it looked better at first but, the fact of the matter is we traded a blossoming and consistent KVH, a much improved Doleac, for a scrub and a decent center. Overall we lost, more rebounding, assists, points, a floor spreader and even more important...chemistry. It was pitiful watching these Knicks that barely knew each other. It was a bad trade for us. We could have gotten Mohammed a different way, and even if we couldn't Mutombo could have done a good job. Baker was alright too and if worse came to worse, Kurt could have played center for us.</div> 1)There was no way to know that TT would struggle so much. 2)"Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I dont think so." He's not very good this year, he's been injured alot, and he's stupid expensive. 3)Nazr had potential...he was young and big and had skills. Doleac was not anything. It was an improvement. 4) KVH was not having a career year. It was actually very middle of the road for him in nearly every catagory. He's gone downhill since, much like TT...so who's to say its a bad trade. Maybe you could of gotten Nazr a different way, but hindsight is always 20/20. At the time, it was a good trade that didnt work out, but somehow did. It didnt work out in that its a disapointment that the main peice to the trade(TT) went downhill. But it did work out because the throw in turned into a legit center. Its very easy to say a trade is bad after you've seen the outcome.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">1)There was no way to know that TT would struggle so much. 2)"Crappy, being injuried and expensive? I dont think so." He's not very good this year, he's been injured alot, and he's stupid expensive. 3)Nazr had potential...he was young and big and had skills. Doleac was not anything. It was an improvement. 4) KVH was not having a career year. It was actually very middle of the road for him in nearly every catagory. He's gone downhill since, much like TT...so who's to say its a bad trade. Maybe you could of gotten Nazr a different way, but hindsight is always 20/20. At the time, it was a good trade that didnt work out, but somehow did. It didnt work out in that its a disapointment that the main peice to the trade(TT) went downhill. But it did work out because the throw in turned into a legit center. Its very easy to say a trade is bad after you've seen the outcome.</div> Please! Apparently I knew TT was going to struggle because ever since I got here I've been saying what a lousy trade it was and I was right. Actually anyone vaguely familiar with TT should have known it was a bad trade. Before Van Horn came to New York the biggest knock on him was his inconsistency and he was very consistent for us. As for Doleac, the Heat who were collecting the players neccessary to help Shaq on their championship run made sure they got Doleac which must mean something. Fact of the matter is Doleac usually ended games for us because of how lethal him and Marbury were running the pick and roll. You only say Nazr had potential because he was athletic. He didnt really have skills. All he had was athleticism and even then he never had a serious edge in numbers. But as history has shown us there is still more to the game than being able to run fast and jump high(see:Van Horn trade, Olympics) Oh yeah Doleac is a better defender too. He worked hard on the defensive end and drew fouls on guards who tried to attack the basket unlike Nazr. I thought I was the only one who thought Doleac plays better defense but apparently there are some sports journalists who would agree with me. Van Horn was having a good year because he was consistently putting up good numbers. His numbers were way up this season, the only reason why his numbers are down is because he got injured. When he gets healthy his numbers will go up and TT's will stay down. By the way how much further downhill did you expect TT to go? It's not like he was terribly impressive before he came. He was an underachiever. Wasn't he coming off the bench? At the time I never saw one, not one, reasonably serious analyst say that trade was good or even decent. How can you call Nazr a legit center and not call Doleac a legit center when Nazr has no real edge in numbers and Doleac is a better defender? This is mind boggling to me. It's like you have no opinion of your own and you're just going along with what everyone else is saying. It's easy to say the trade was bad when you see the outcome. But it's also easy to say the trade was a bad idea when it first happens. Noone who really knows basketball thought it was a good idea. The Knicks were playing well. Period. The pick and roll had become our deadliest play, Doleac was getting more involved in the paint, Van Horn was consistent and we were winning. I'm sorry to say the only people who thought it was a good trade at the time were people who simply didnt understand basketball. Just didnt understand the nuances of the game and thought that being athletic was what the sport was about. TT is more athletic but he cant shoot, pass or rebound with any consistency. Nazr was stronger and faster and can jump higher but Doleac knew how to play. This is a text book example of why fundamentals are better than athleticism. By the way you guys think we can trade one of our expiring contracts for Van Horn? Maybe TT?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Do me a favor and watch how you talk to me from now on. That is relevant. Houston is my favorite player and everything I say regarding him is correct. If you dont like the fact that I like to talk about him keep it to yourself. Thank you in advance. </div> Blow me Houston deserves all the praise in the world for what he's done, but he's just not relevant anymore and you have to accept it. Ah well, it's fun to dream.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Platehpus:</div><div class="quote_post">Blow me Houston deserves all the praise in the world for what he's done, but he's just not relevant anymore and you have to accept it. Ah well, it's fun to dream.</div> How mature....I very politely asked you not to speak to me in a certain way and you turned it into something personal for absolutely no reason. While I'm tempted to flame and insult you back it's a little beneath me to do so, so I'll just let it go.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way you guys think we can trade one of our expiring contracts for Van Horn? Maybe TT?</div> I don't know. I think we can do better for such a big expiring contract. Van Horn played well but, now that he's gone and we do hav a whole different team, I think we should look elsewhere. I wouldn't mind some draft picks and for those expiring contracts.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post"> First off Van Horn before he got injured was averaging a double double. I've never heard of anyone complain about Van Horn's contract. It's pretty reasonable in a league full of players with unreasonable contracts. And he was shooting at a very high percentage from behind the arc as well. Something like 45% which was one of highest percentages at the time. So no I wouldnt call Van Horn crappy. </div> What are you sayin? ($14,487,000) By far the highest-paid Buck, Van Horn chews up a quarter of the team's payroll and has only chipped in 10.1 points and 5.7 rebounds per game, when he's been healthy. Van Horn will be 30 by the start of the 05-06 season. Yeah, good value. The bucks are only paying KVH around $22,635 for each point he will score if he keeps up his increadible 10.1 point per game avg up. He is the 18th highest paid player in the NBA. I can think of alot more than 17 players I would want over this DUD. HE STINKS. It was a good trade for the knicks, even though TT is almost as big a dud.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know. I think we can do better for such a big expiring contract. Van Horn played well but, now that he's gone and we do hav a whole different team, I think we should look elsewhere. I wouldn't mind some draft picks and for those expiring contracts.</div> Who do you have in mind for our expiring contracts. I mean we're not going to get anybody like Garnett or Duncan. We might have a while new team but it's not performing nearly as well as we thought so we have to do something about it. Van Horn worked out really well with us last season there's no reason why he cant do the same. Maybe we can have the same line up we should have had. You know with Stephon Marbury at the point, Kieth Van Horn at the small forward and Allan Houston at the shooting guard. The only issue will be how healthy Van Horn is. We cant get draft picks for our expiring contracts. More often than not a team that takes expiring contracts is rebuilding and no rebuilding team will ever trade away draft picks. We can only get players with our expiring contract, players with long, and hefty contracts. But if we keep trading away expiring contracts for players we'll never get under the cap. We should hang onto at least one of the expiring contracts and see if we can get Van Horn with the other. That way we can come a little bit closer to getting under the cap and improve the team in the short term. Maybe trade Kurt Thomas for a pick or expiring contract or a young player to help us in the future and at the same time clear more play time for Sweetney. We have pleny of moves available to us, not as many and not as good as last season but good enough to be a better team next season while improving our chances of success in the future. What are you sayin? ($14,487,000) By far the highest-paid Buck, Van Horn chews up a quarter of the team's payroll and has only chipped in 10.1 points and 5.7 rebounds per game, when he's been healthy. Van Horn will be 30 by the start of the 05-06 season. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting norespect:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, good value. The bucks are only paying KVH around $22,635 for each point he will score if he keeps up his increadible 10.1 point per game avg up. He is the 18th highest paid player in the NBA. I can think of alot more than 17 players I would want over this DUD. HE STINKS. It was a good trade for the knicks, even though TT is almost as big a dud</div> My friend I could care less about how he's performing for Milwuakee. We use him differently than you guys do. He was doing pretty damn good for us. He was averaging about 18ppg and 7 rpg while playing small forward for us. Maybe it's the system he's in which is why he isnt doing very well. Wasnt he coming off the bench? And dont forget he's injured as well. You cant get mad when a player gets injured, it happens. But thanks for telling me about his contract situation I wasnt aware that he got paid that much. Would you really want TT back? Because if I could, I'd give TT right back to you with cash. By the way he's a shooter as long as he can still run up and down the court and avoid serious injuries he'll be serviceable for many more years to come.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting norespect:</div><div class="quote_post">What are you sayin? ($14,487,000) By far the highest-paid Buck, Van Horn chews up a quarter of the team's payroll and has only chipped in 10.1 points and 5.7 rebounds per game, when he's been healthy. Van Horn will be 30 by the start of the 05-06 season. Yeah, good value. The bucks are only paying KVH around $22,635 for each point he will score if he keeps up his increadible 10.1 point per game avg up. He is the 18th highest paid player in the NBA. I can think of alot more than 17 players I would want over this DUD. HE STINKS. It was a good trade for the knicks, even though TT is almost as big a dud.</div> No it wasn't. Before he got injuried was the key. He was shooting at a high percentage and I believe 40+% from behind the arc. Milwaukee is not giving him the minutes because they want to rest him more. Anyway, what he did in Milwaukee doesn't matter because it's what he did for us. When Van Horn was with us he was extremely consistent. He was rebounding very well something TT can't do, he was scoring well and efficiently, something TT can't do. He stretched the floor for us well, yet another thing TT can't do. You mentioned KVH's contract but, what about TT's?? He is making some good money to play Horrible! Me as well asother Knick fans would rather overpay KVH than TT, at least he was playing well for us.
