<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Im a TO fan, but personally i think 90% of raptors fans are idiots who no nothing about bball and just boo because they have nothing better to do. I mean what fans in history of the NBA have held grudges this long (still Damon, TMAC and Vince for a long time to come im sure). I seriously have never heard of more vicious NBA fans thanTO fans.</div> i dont believe that first statement. TO fans know a lot about ball. just because were canadian people always stereotype us as fans who don?t know **** about any sport except hockey. but i do agree that we tend to hold grudges and it gets out of hand, i mean we still boo damon and its been 10 years..but TO fans are not "vicious", we're just alot more passionate about our sports teams that most other cities because we take our sports seriously. thats why we get so mad when all those players leave. i think the pistons fans are the most vicious, btw.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Figured somebody neede to help u Banks. Skip and VinK are just both Vince haters and they hate him because he is good and he picked the Nets up by himself halfway through the season and led them to the playoffs, and their team (which i still like) was done by Xmas. First of all, to say that J-Kidd is good, tough defender is just an absolute piece of crap. I have alot of respect for kidd and he does alot of good things, but now that he's older, hes a defensive liability at the PG. He's just not quick enough, and truthfully, nobody is quick enough to guard Wade. When hes on his gAME theres no stopping him, and mark my words, he WILL be better then Lebron if he already isnt. As for the Nets not taking a game off the Heat, there are few teams who can. Detroit will take only two, SA 2 or 3 and prolly a couple teams in the West could take off 1, but the Heat are just too good. Ill admit that Vince isnt the best on D, but hes athletic and an amazing playmaker and scorer. LBJ sucks at D too (he got burned BAD by Prince) and a lot of great players like tmac and dirk suck on D too but you never hear them gettin criticized.</div> The sentence-ish thing up there didn't make any sense.. could you go to elementary school and learn a little more grammar and sentence structure? And if I'm not blind or deaf, I think I just watched the Pistons end the Heat's playoff life with a win in Miami. By the way, who on the earth say anything about us criticizing Vince's defense? I for one didn't say anything about his defense. I don't 'hate' Vince the player or the person. I hate the way he handled things here in T-dot. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Im a TO fan, but personally i think 90% of raptors fans are idiots who no nothing about bball and just boo because they have nothing better to do.</div> Yea,, coming from a Net fan who just joined justbball.com. So let me ask you something. If you are a TO fan and you think 90% of the Raptors fans are idiots who "no" nothing about bball and just boo, are you saying you're in your self-claimed 10% that aren't "idiots"? So far, what I've read in your post proves completely otherwise. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">I mean what fans in history of the NBA have held grudges this long (still Damon, TMAC and Vince for a long time to come im sure). I seriously have never heard of more vicious NBA fans thanTO fans.</div> I even kindly went out of my ways to quote the following for you, so <u>read and comprehend</u>. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting raptors4life:</div><div class="quote_post">but i do agree that we tend to hold grudges and it gets out of hand, i mean we still boo damon and its been 10 years..but TO fans are not "vicious", we're just alot more passionate about our sports teams that most other cities because we take our sports seriously. thats why we get so mad when all those players leave.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting DerfZ:</div><div class="quote_post">ok for Damon we shouldnt boo, but Vince and Tmac? T-mac didnt give us a chance to resign him, and Vince demanded a trade so they didnt exactly leave on great terms and what fans in history have had 3 superstars leave them in 10 years? </div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if Vince and the Nets make it far into the playoffs or even win it in the next couple years (they are gonna have a reallly good team next year) you all will still call vince a loser or a whiner. </div> No I don't think I will call Vince a loser / whiner if in fact Vince and the Nets win the Championship. He'll be a proven winner. You have just one explaining to do: Explain to me how exactly the Nets are going to have a "reallly" good team next year. Let's see... you have multiple first round picks. Oh wait you traded one of those picks to us and you only have the 15th pick and the 43rd pick! What else.. oh yea I think you guys have a salary cap to spend on free agents. No, nevermind. You are $10 million over the cap and we're only $7 million over the cap! Guess what else. When Jalen Rose ($15 million)and Lamond Murray ($5 million) comes off the book after next season, we'll be well under the salary cap. Are you? Let's see... Carter's on the book for 3 more seasons at $13 million a year and more, Kidd has 4 more seasons at $19 million a year, and oh my, Jefferson's got 5 more seasons at $12 million a year. Those three players alone puts you over the salary cap of $42 million, and the last time I checked, three all-stars(superstars) don't necessarily make a good team. Don't know what I'm referring to? Well,, just ask Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, and Karl Malone. In order to make a championship calibre team, you need 12 players who understand their roles in the team. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way VinK, what successful NBA player doesnt whine or complain to the refs. And if you wana complain about him leaving TO on those terms, then you cant like Kobe for forcing shaq out, LBJ for wantin to go to lLA or NYC and not goin in the dunk contest because it didnt offer enough money, or pretty much most superstars who make demands on their teams. The only difference is, their teams listened to those players. Raptors didnt.</div> Err... when did I say anything about him complaining to the referees? If you could show me a proof, I'll be more than happy to recognize my fault. And yes, I don't believe that a player should influence the decisions on player personnel matters. That's the General Manager's job. I didn't like Kobe from the get-go, and the whole rape-adultery and Phil Jackson/Shaq incidents didn't help the cause. As for LeBron not participating in the dunk contest, how do you know he didn't go because there was no money at stake? Because some "source" said on the rumours page that the money was the reason? For all we know he could have just skipped it because he didn't feel like risking an injury or he felt like there was no competition. And what's this about Raptors not listening to Vince Carter's demands? Why was the near-end-of-career Hakeem Olajuwon signed for $12 million a year that had him playing for the Raps for maybe 1/4 a season? Why did we acquire Antonio Davis from the Pacers and sign him to a ridiculously overpriced contract extension? Who forced us to sign Jerome Williams and Alvin Williams to a couple of bad contracts by threatening to not re-sign with us? Who said publicly that picking Chris Bosh was a bad move? Guess who. Vince Carter. So don't even try to argue that the Raptors didn't listen to Vince. Hell, we even gave Vince's mom Michelle her own freaking parking spot in the Air Canada Centre player / staff underground parking lot. That alone speaks for how much you know as a self-claimed "TO fan".
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The sentence-ish thing up there didn't make any sense.. could you go to elementary school and learn a little more grammar and sentence structure?</div> Wow I'm sorry if my bad grammar offended you that much, because I had thought I was writing in a basketball forum, not an essay at school. Please excuse any future grammatical errors on my part. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i dont believe that first statement. TO fans know a lot about ball. just because were canadian people always stereotype us as fans who don?t know **** about any sport except hockey.</div> When I said 90% I did not mean literally 90% ( I exaggerated a bit), I'm talking about all the people in the stands who know next to nothing about ball and just sit in their seats and boo beacuse everyone else is. I've been to a few Raps games so I'm not just making this up. Also, I'm from Winnipeg (which is in Canada in case you didn't know), so I'm not stereotyping anybody, but I don't think anybody here can deny that Raptor fans in general are less knowledgeable than your average NBA fan. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Banks, how did you come up with the conclusion that I was calling Vince the person a whiner / loser? I wasn't referring that to him as a person. He was an outstanding individual off the court, helping those in need with his charity and what not. Rather, I was talking about him as a player on the court.</div> There's my proof. How else can you whine on the court if not to the officials? I don't think there's a single player in the NBA who doesn't whine to the refs. Vince, in fact, does it A LOT less than most players who get away with it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No I don't think I will call Vince a loser / whiner if in fact Vince and the Nets win the Championship. He'll be a proven winner. You have just one explaining to do: Explain to me how exactly the Nets are going to have a "reallly" good team next year. Let's see... you have multiple first round picks. Oh wait you traded one of those picks to us and you only have the 15th pick and the 43rd pick! What else.. oh yea I think you guys have a salary cap to spend on free agents. No, nevermind. You are $10 million over the cap and we're only $7 million over the cap! Guess what else. When Jalen Rose ($15 million)and Lamond Murray ($5 million) comes off the book after next season, we'll be well under the salary cap. Are you? Let's see... Carter's on the book for 3 more seasons at $13 million a year and more, Kidd has 4 more seasons at $19 million a year, and oh my, Jefferson's got 5 more seasons at $12 million a year. Those three players alone puts you over the salary cap of $42 million, and the last time I checked, three all-stars(superstars) don't necessarily make a good team. Don't know what I'm referring to? Well,, just ask Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, and Karl Malone. In order to make a championship calibre team, you need 12 players who understand their roles in the team.</div> New York is something like 60-70 million over the cap, and I don't know if you heard but Ratner has pretty much already said that he doesn't care about going well over the cap this year, so the Nets could possibly get a guy like Swift to complement the Big 3. So they only got 1 pick this year, but what team needs two first-rounders when a GM like Babcock is just going to waste them on players like Araujo. And referring to the Lakers, they had to superstars who hated eachother and playing together, and I wouldn't even refer to Malone and Payton as stars because they're so old and played like crap in the playoffs. Considering this, the Lakers actually had a good run, and even making the finals is pretty impressive. As for your last comments, even if LBJ didn't enter for reasons other than cash, the fact that he is still holding out on the fans is pretty low. Any player in the league that considers themself a good dunker should enter the contest at some point in their career. Also, I'd like to know about your sources saying Vince forced the Raps to sign players like the Williams' and Hakim to big contracts. As for Davis, he was a major part in the Raptors run in 2001, and they pretty much had to sign him. Lastly, about Bosh, Vince was critical, but the Raps could have gotten DWade...
<font face="Courier New">Vince Carter isnt overrated!!! those votes were taking earlier in the season when he was a raptor averaging 15 ppg. If those would' to be taken again after the season, the result would be completely different. Dont forget tmac was also labelled overrated, do you all seriously believe he is? And i think after vince's 27/6/5 with NJ, there is no doubt he's not overrated. I think he becomes a very underrated player, people hated him through out the season....and now after he mad them all eat their words, and helped a hopless NJ team make the playoff putting up great numbers. They still (if not most) think he's overrated? i just dont understand.</font>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow I'm sorry if my bad grammar offended you that much, because I had thought I was writing in a basketball forum, not an essay at school. Please excuse any future grammatical errors on my part. </div> You are writing in a basketball forum, but you'll need to do better if you hope to get other people to comprehend what you're trying to say. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">When I said 90% I did not mean literally 90% ( I exaggerated a bit), I'm talking about all the people in the stands who know next to nothing about ball and just sit in their seats and boo beacuse everyone else is. I've been to a few Raps games so I'm not just making this up. Also, I'm from Winnipeg (which is in Canada in case you didn't know), so I'm not stereotyping anybody, but I don't think anybody here can deny that Raptor fans in general are less knowledgeable than your average NBA fan.</div> Are you serious man? And how are you justifying yourself for getting on the Vince bandwagon after he got traded to Jersey? You can't say Raptor fans in 'general' are less knowledgeable than your average NBA fan when you yourself switched your favourite team to NJ after Vince got traded. That's what ignorant fans do - jumping wagons just because a player got traded. Sure, there are a few retards who just goes to the game to have a beer and yell obscenities, but which NBA city doesn't? For that matter, can you name any city that have any pro-sports team and not have those kind of people? If the Raptors fans were ignorant, they wouldn't have come out to games for the past three seasons when the team was bottoming out in the NBA standings. They'd have just packed it in and not bother spending $5,000 for their season tickets. But guess what, they have come out each and every game to show support to the team because they want to see what the team can do, and they know that they - the fans - are crucial to the team's success. Look at Memphis man, they were having above .500 seasons for 4-5 years and what do they get? Dwindling fan base each and every year. And look at Detroit fans, what the hell do they think they are doing throwing beers / chairs and picking fights with players? Those are the kind of fans you can call 'less knowledgeable'; not us Raptors fans. The boos are there because we have passion for the team and the game; not because we know jackshit about basketball. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">There's my proof. How else can you whine on the court if not to the officials? I don't think there's a single player in the NBA who doesn't whine to the refs. Vince, in fact, does it A LOT less than most players who get away with it.</div> Where is your 'proof'? Of what? You aren't proving anything if you think by labelling him 'whiner / loser' I only referred to situations when players argue with officials. Honestly, did you even watch a single game this past season? Did you see how Vince played after making his trade demand? Did you see the look on his face? The 'Damn, I don't wanna play here anymore, why don't they just trade me already' look? If you didn't watch any games, I'll understand because you just won't get it. But if you have watched even a single game, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Vince had the 'pouty' mode switched to 'ON' since the beginning of the season. You want examples? Okay, where to start.. the body language, the facial expressions, not running on fast breaks, taking contested fadeaway jumpshots after jumpshots, not driving into the lane, averaging an amazing 12 ppg , it's endless. Then when he got traded to NJ, he somehow switched the 'pouty' mode OFF and went back to his old-self dunking on people and averaging the kind of numbers he should've averaged all along regardless of whether or not he was traded. I appreciate that you are a Vince fan, but please, don't post something that just shows how ignorant you are. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">New York is something like 60-70 million over the cap, and I don't know if you heard but Ratner has pretty much already said that he doesn't care about going well over the cap this year, so the Nets could possibly get a guy like Swift to complement the Big 3.</div> Err.. could you please explain to me the relevance of New York's salary to my previous point? Not to offend any Knicks fans, but if you start comparing your team's salary situation to the Knicks run by Isiah Thomas, then you're just degrading yourself and your team to their level. New York isn't going anywhere with their salary cap situation for at least 3-4 more years - that's even with Allan Houston waived - and even the Knicks fans know that as long as Isiah Thomas is the head poncho, things aren't going to change. Excuse me, but how exactly are they going to go 'well over the cap' if they can't sign anyone past the mid-level exception of $5 million? I'm hoping you have a basic understanding of the NBA salary cap, but just incase you don't, I'll give you a few pointers. A team may not sign any free agents if they're over the salary cap; however, they are eligible to use the MLE (Mid-Level Exception of approximately $5 million) and they are still eligible to sign players for LMC (League Minimum Contract: varies by the player's experience in the league - veterans get more money obviously). In other words, the Nets cannot sign anybody for more than $5 million per season unless they go under the cap. I don't think Ratner is going to use all of the MLE on one player, since the Nets have so many holes to fill. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">So they only got 1 pick this year, but what team needs two first-rounders when a GM like Babcock is just going to waste them on players like Araujo. And referring to the Lakers, they had to superstars who hated eachother and playing together, and I wouldn't even refer to Malone and Payton as stars because they're so old and played like crap in the playoffs. Considering this, the Lakers actually had a good run, and even making the finals is pretty impressive.</div> Actually, the sentiment should go like this: "What team needs a player like Kenyon Martin when a GM like Rod thorn is just going to throw him away for three conditional first round picks?" I admit Babcock screwed up on picking Araujo, but he'll make you eat your words on Tuesday night. This guy has done the homework for this draft. Your rebuttal on the Lakers example doesn't do anything to support your point. They had two superstars who hated each other and playing together, but they still made the finals. But the Nets? They had three superstars who loved each other and the best they could do was getting swept 4-0 in the first round. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">As for your last comments, even if LBJ didn't enter for reasons other than cash, the fact that he is still holding out on the fans is pretty low. Any player in the league that considers themself a good dunker should enter the contest at some point in their career. </div> Yea? So are you saying that Vince is 'pretty low' too? Because as far as I could remember Vince only went into the dunk contest once when he could've gone out all three times. James still has 2 more years of eligibility in the dunk contest, and he will probably attend it once. The main factor in players choosing not to go into the dunk contest is that the chances of injury are pretty high, and they don't want to risk not being able to play for an extended amount of time - possibly for the entire season - just because they messed up and landed on their ankle during the dunk contest. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, I'd like to know about your sources saying Vince forced the Raps to sign players like the Williams' and Hakim to big contracts. As for Davis, he was a major part in the Raptors run in 2001, and they pretty much had to sign him. Lastly, about Bosh, Vince was critical, but the Raps could have gotten DWade...</div> Oh my god.. just ask anyone in this forum about that. Or just search around in the Toronto Star basketball articles. They'll all say the same thing I said. But if you're not going to do the search, here's a recap of how the signings all happened. You do know that Vince, or any franchise players for that matter, indirectly try to attract big-name free agents, right? In year 2001, Vince was eligible for an extension on his rookie contract. Glen Grunwald offered him the max money ($85 million for 7 years or something) and ironically enough, the "core" of the Raptors at the time (Antonio Davis, Alvin Wiliams and Jerome Williams) were also on their contract years and were waiting for offers to re-sign. When Vince got the offer, he told Grunwald that he will only sign the extension if all the above mentioned are re-signed too. To keep Vince happy, Grunwald did what was necessary - offering Davis and the Williamses bloated contracts just to keep them in T-dot. After that was all said and done, Vince wanted Hakim Olajuwon signed to 'provide help in the middle', so Grunwald went out and grabbed him - a near end of the career Olajuwon that is - at $10 million a season. What happend? Well.. Olajuwon ended up playing less than 1/4 of the season and simply retired, leaving the Raptors in a financial mess. About Bosh, Vince was critical about picking him, but what happened? Bosh has the character and the natural leadership abilities that Vince never had, and has replaced him as the franchise player of the Raptors. Wade wouldn't have done as well in a Raptor uniform for the simple reason that there is no one named Shaquille O'Neal on the Raptors roster.
^ We weren't paying Olajuwon $10 million per year, but I actually thought it was a good signing at the time. I mean using hindsight to say they were all bad moves doesn't prove anything, at the time, they were actually pretty good moves for the most part. Olajuwon, JYD and Alvin all got deals starting at $5 million, which IMO isn't overapaying at all. Nazr Mohammed makes that amount, and Olajuwon the previous season averaged 11.9 points, 7.4 rebounds and 1.52 blocks. Also he played 61 games as a Raptor, not less than 1/4 of the season. Alvin came off a year where he averaged 9.8 points, 2.6 rebounds, 5.0 assists, and 1.50 steals in 29.2 MPG, and only starting 34 games that season. He got about the MLE amount, his contract hasn't even reached $6 million in any of the years. Also the next 2 years after that he improved his scoring and assist numbers, playing 82 and 78 games, and the only reason he's been "bad" is because of injuries. JYD got too much money for a role player, he got a contract close to what Alvin was getting, just a little lower, and he only played 26 games with the Raptors, averaging 5 PPG and 4 RPG that season. That's just a dumb management move to give him that much money though, yea he had previous seasons with big rebound numbers, but still. AD was also overpaid, I mean I can understand why because the previous season he was an All-Star, averaged 13.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, and 1.94 blocks. Those are obviously some very good numbers, but he was 33 years old, and they payed him more than even Vince. That's just another dumb management move, Vince wasn't the one handing out the contracts.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">VinKanaddy Are you serious man? And how are you justifying yourself for getting on the Vince bandwagon after he got traded to Jersey? You can't say Raptor fans in 'general' are less knowledgeable than your average NBA fan when you yourself switched your favourite team to NJ after Vince got traded. That's what ignorant fans do - jumping wagons just because a player got traded. </div> <font face="Courier New"> He's not just any nba player, he's Vince Carter a superstar player in this league. I still root for the raptors after vince got traded, but i cant stop supporting my fav player of all time just cuz some raptors fan hate him for leaving? No, and i think that's exactly what virve119 is doing. I bet you werent calling him overrated, a whiner, and a loser when he was a raptor. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, there are a few retards who just goes to the game to have a beer and yell obscenities, but which NBA city doesn't? For that matter, can you name any city that have any pro-sports team and not have those kind of people? If the Raptors fans were ignorant, they wouldn't have come out to games for the past three seasons when the team was bottoming out in the NBA standings. They'd have just packed it in and not bother spending $5,000 for their season tickets. But guess what, they have come out each and every game to show support to the team because they want to see what the team can do, and they know that they - the fans - are crucial to the team's success. Look at Memphis man, they were having above .500 seasons for 4-5 years and what do they get? Dwindling fan base each and every year. And look at Detroit fans, what the hell do they think they are doing throwing beers / chairs and picking fights with players? Those are the kind of fans you can call 'less knowledgeable'; not us Raptors fans. The boos are there because we have passion for the team and the game; not because we know jackshit about basketball. </div> <font face="Courier New">I agree with almost everything u said here, but except this one. They dont have any passion. Do you think the booing of vince when he came back home was fair? making ridiculous posters of him, and some people actually booed him without knowing why they're booing in the first place? If it wasnt for vince they would be no Basketball in Canada, he even said it that bringing big name players in this city is difficult. I swear, you can go on the street and ask any Canadian guy/girls about Vince, and they'll say ****him that loser, sissy, and etc. They only remember that bad things vince had done. Trust me, they listen to what the media say/write. If they have any passion for the team and the game like you claim, they should let it go at least with vince.....cuz tmac and Stoudnmire ( spelld it wrong) havent done anything for this franchise, but vince have done alot of good things. You'll should just let it go and move on. </font> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Where is your 'proof'? Of what? You aren't provi</font>ng anything if you think by labelling him 'whiner / loser' I only referred to situations when players argue with officials. Honestly, did you even watch a single game this past season? Did you see how Vince played after making his trade demand? Did you see the look on his face? The 'Damn, I don't wanna play here anymore, why don't they just trade me already' look? If you didn't watch any games, I'll understand because you just won't get it. But if you have watched even a single game, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Vince had the 'pouty' mode switched to 'ON' since the beginning of the season. You want examples? Okay, where to start.. the body language, the facial expressions, not running on fast breaks, taking contested fadeaway jumpshots after jumpshots, not driving into the lane, averaging an amazing 12 ppg , it's endless. Then when he got traded to NJ, he somehow switched the 'pouty' mode OFF and went back to his old-self dunking on people and averaging the kind of numbers he should've averaged all along regardless of whether or not he was traded. I appreciate that you are a Vince fan, but please, don't post something that just shows how ignorant you are. </div> <font face="Courier New">He did average 15.9 ppg in 30.1 mpg, and could've averaged more if he had actually plays run for him. Dont you guys notice that when vince usually had a good first quartar scoring 10-16 pts, Sam will take him out and let his zoo crew in and wont let vince return until the finale 3/2 minutes of the 2nd quartar..so after he comes back, he mostly manages to score only 2 pt, if lucky enough 4 pts. Is that how u treat ur franchise player? i know sometimes the zoo crew do a good job, but vince was also hot even if not, why not just let him in and restore his confidence?? other coaches do that with their franchise players, example? kobe, tmac, and Iverson.....they never stay dat long on the bench even if they're having a bad game.</font>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">^ We weren't paying Olajuwon $10 million per year, but I actually thought it was a good signing at the time. I mean using hindsight to say they were all bad moves doesn't prove anything, at the time, they were actually pretty good moves for the most part. Olajuwon, JYD and Alvin all got deals starting at $5 million, which IMO isn't overapaying at all. Nazr Mohammed makes that amount, and Olajuwon the previous season averaged 11.9 points, 7.4 rebounds and 1.52 blocks. Also he played 61 games as a Raptor, not less than 1/4 of the season. Alvin came off a year where he averaged 9.8 points, 2.6 rebounds, 5.0 assists, and 1.50 steals in 29.2 MPG, and only starting 34 games that season. He got about the MLE amount, his contract hasn't even reached $6 million in any of the years. Also the next 2 years after that he improved his scoring and assist numbers, playing 82 and 78 games, and the only reason he's been "bad" is because of injuries. JYD got too much money for a role player, he got a contract close to what Alvin was getting, just a little lower, and he only played 26 games with the Raptors, averaging 5 PPG and 4 RPG that season. That's just a dumb management move to give him that much money though, yea he had previous seasons with big rebound numbers, but still. AD was also overpaid, I mean I can understand why because the previous season he was an All-Star, averaged 13.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, and 1.94 blocks. Those are obviously some very good numbers, but he was 33 years old, and they payed him more than even Vince. That's just another dumb management move, Vince wasn't the one handing out the contracts.</div> How do you figure? Olajuwon was having back problems and Grunwald knew about it, and he still signed him to a contract that 'started' at $5 million but totalled $17.4 million over 3 years. When I said $10 million, I referred to the $10 million the Raptors were forced to pay him in a buyout because Olajuwon 'unofficially' retired after just one season. My mistake on the part where I said he played less than 1/4 of the season and he did average 11.9 ppg / 7.4 rpg / 1.5 bpg, but was he really worth the money he was signed to? Look at his previous seasons. From 1997-98, he started to miss on average about 3/5 of each season due to lingering back problems, playing 47 games in that season, then 50 in 98-99, then 44 in 99-00 and then 58 in 00-01. Grunwald took the risk because Vince wanted the 'inside help'. Again, the key word is 'starting' at $5 million. It is the key word especially when signing aging players. JYD and Alvin were relatively young at the time of the signing, but by the time their contracts ended the Raptors would've paid $40.8 million to JYD and $42 million to Alvin Williams - both 7-year contracts. Add that to the 5-year, $64 million contract that Antonio Davis was given, and the 3-year, $17.4 million that Olajuwon was given. That's $164.2 million on four players that became an average role players at best, although Alvin did earn his paychecks by working hard. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2001-02 The Raptors' exciting playoff performance attracted even more fans and put unprecendented trust from the owners on Grunwald. In an attempt to satisfy Vince Carter so that he would resign with the team, , to provide Carter with a good supporting cast. Altough the team was guaranteed a powerful starting line-up for one season, it was a dangerous gamble as overall player salary almost reached the cap, making significant free-agent signing impossible. Expiring contracts had also been traded away, so unless the Raptors succeeded with their 2001-2002 lineup, it was unlikely they would remain a very competitive team. The first half of the season ran well with expected contributions from the starters and the improvement Morris Peterson and Keon Clark. In spite of an injury to Antonio Davis in January and a subsequent injury to Carter, the team made a record comeback to clinch a playoff berth. However, the injuries to Davis and Carter were highlighted in the 3-2 series loss to the Detroit Pistons. Ben Wallace and Jerry Stackhouse's performances overwhelmed the offensively-limited Raptors. Record: 42 Wins - 40 Losses; eliminated in the first round of the playoffs</div> http://www.answers.com/topic/toronto-raptors The deals given to Jerome Williams and Alvin Williams happen to be 7-years - which is the same contract extension length given to Vince Carter. A coincidence? I don't think so. Granted, Vince wasn't the one handing out the cash, but he definitely was one who had an attitude of 'I have to have a say in everything the Raptors do and they will do exactly as I wish, or I'm going to pout' - from getting his mom a designated parking spot (name another NBA player who did that) to asking who he wants as a GM - in this case Julius Erving. After it's all said and done, it's not completely Vince's fault, but if it weren't for him, the chances of same happenstances would have been much slimmer as far as the bloated contracts have gone.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">From 1997-98, he started to miss on average about 3/5 of each season due to lingering back problems, playing 47 games in that season, then 50 in 98-99, then 44 in 99-00 and then 58 in 00-01. Grunwald took the risk because Vince wanted the 'inside help'. </div> That was the lockout year, their was only 50 games. I understand what you're saying, but he really wasn't payed that much, it was a decent amount, but not that much. Antonio Davis was the only real bad contract there, Jerome Williams had seasons where he produced enough to be payed $5 million. $5 million is about the average NBA salary. Alvin was worth his contract till he got injured.... The length of the contracts was the management's fault. They didn't need to sign them for that long, Vince wanted them back, but it's not like he was going to go make sure they get exactly the same amount of years as him etc. 3-4 year contracts, they stay, and if they played well you can re-sign them. You have to remember that the management was not really that good in the first place, they had more business people than basketball people.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">He's not just any nba player, he's Vince Carter a superstar player in this league. I still root for the raptors after vince got traded, but i cant stop supporting my fav player of all time just cuz some raptors fan hate him for leaving? No, and i think that's exactly what virve119 is doing. I bet you werent calling him overrated, a whiner, and a loser when he was a raptor.</div> So he's a so called 'superstar', does that give him a privilege to be loved by everybody? I didn't say you can't support Vince, did I? Please, read my post thoroughly before making an ignorant comment like that. Like my favourite player is Chris Bosh, your favourite player is Vince Carter. Not everybody loves Bosh, but no one can expect to be loved by everybody; same goes with Vince. And no, I don't hate him. In fact, I appreciate almost everything he did to get Toronto on the basketball map, except the way he handled things after making the trade demand. And.. what's this about me calling Vince overrated? I did say that he's not overrated if you read my previous post. See, if you actually read and comprehended what I wrote, you wouldn't come out and make it sound like I'm just against Vince. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with almost everything u said here, but except this one. They dont have any passion. Do you think the booing of vince when he came back home was fair? making ridiculous posters of him, and some people actually booed him without knowing why they're booing in the first place? If it wasnt for vince they would be no Basketball in Canada, he even said it that bringing big name players in this city is difficult. I swear, you can go on the street and ask any Canadian guy/girls about Vince, and they'll say ****him that loser, sissy, and etc. They only remember that bad things vince had done. Trust me, they listen to what the media say/write. If they have any passion for the team and the game like you claim, they should let it go at least with vince.....cuz tmac and Stoudnmire ( spelld it wrong) havent done anything for this franchise, but vince have done alot of good things. You'll should just let it go and move on.</div> God damn.. you need to learn to <u>read</u>. Do you need a dictionary to tell you what the word "passion" means? Ok, here ya go. According to the Webster English dictionary, the word passion means <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4 b : intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction c : an outbreak of anger 5 a : ardent affection : LOVE b : a strong liking or desire for or devotion to some activity, object, or concept c : sexual desire d : an object of desire or deep interest </div> As you can see, passion doesn't necessarily mean love. It can be just an intense feeling toward some object / person AND it can also mean a devotion to an object / person or a team; the Raptors for an example. In other words, your sentiment that us Raptor fans don't have any passion doesn't make any sense whatsoever, as booing is considered being passionate. You see, if we weren't passionate, we simply wouldn't have cared whether or not Vince was coming back to ACC as a Net. Stop stereotyping all Raptor fans because you're just making yourself look bad. You're the one who needs to let it go, because I, for one, give Carter his deserved credit and you're making it sound like he didn't do anything wrong, as if he's a saint or something. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">He did average 15.9 ppg in 30.1 mpg, and could've averaged more if he had actually plays run for him. Dont you guys notice that when vince usually had a good first quartar scoring 10-16 pts, Sam will take him out and let his zoo crew in and wont let vince return until the finale 3/2 minutes of the 2nd quartar..so after he comes back, he mostly manages to score only 2 pt, if lucky enough 4 pts. Is that how u treat ur franchise player? i know sometimes the zoo crew do a good job, but vince was also hot even if not, why not just let him in and restore his confidence?? other coaches do that with their franchise players, example? kobe, tmac, and Iverson.....they never stay dat long on the bench even if they're having a bad game.</div> Why should he keep Vince in the game when the look on his face obviously was saying 'Take me out, I don't want to be on the court' and played absolutely no defense? Sam's utilization of bench players wasn't just targeted to Vince - it's his style of coaching. If Vince wanted to be treated like a franchise player, he should've acted like one; he should have handled things professionally on the court, not by pouting and sulking like a teenager. Are you sure you never saw Kobe, T-Mac and Iverson stay on the bench for that long? Because I'm pretty sure I saw Phil Jackson nail Kobe to the bench for an entire half during a regular season game in 03-04, as well as Larry Brown sitting Iverson down for a long stretch after he kept taking ill-advised shots and get beat on defense. Maybe you're just used to a coach like Lenny Wilkens who is so laid back and doesn't know what the word 'discipline' means. Just because someone is a franchise player, it doesn't mean he is to be worshipped by coaches. He has to earn the respect and the playing time just like the 12th man would. P.S.: og15, I agree and am satisfied with your rebuttal. I did say that it wasn't all Vince's fault and the management at the time (Glen Grunwald and co.) had a substantial part in dealing out the cash in a wrong way. as for Alvin Williams, I'm hoping that he will make a healthy comeback this season. I love his heart.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Posted by VinKanaddy So he's a so called 'superstar', does that give him a privilege to be loved by everybody? I didn't say you can't support Vince, did I? Please, read my post thoroughly before making an ignorant comment like that. Like my favourite player is Chris Bosh, your favourite player is Vince Carter. Not everybody loves Bosh, but no one can expect to be loved by everybody; same goes with Vince. And no, I don't hate him. In fact, I appreciate almost everything he did to get Toronto on the basketball map, except the way he handled things after making the trade demand. And.. what's this about me calling Vince overrated? I did say that he's not overrated if you read my previous post. See, if you actually read and comprehended what I wrote, you wouldn't come out and make it sound like I'm just against Vince. </div> Now what does this mean? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">when you yourself switched your favourite team to NJ after Vince got traded. That's what ignorant fans do - jumping wagons just because a player got traded. </div> why wouldnt he change his team if his fav player got traded? So you also dont want him supporting the nets dont ya? that's exactly what you saying, is that he should not switch teams no matter what if a player leaves or not am i right? if not please explain. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">God damn.. you need to learn to <u>read</u>. Do you need a dictionary to tell you what the word "passion" means? Ok, here ya go. According to the Webster English dictionary, the word passion means </div> I dont need a dictionary, nope sorry.....to me the word "passion" have many different meanings. To me it means love and etc, and this too...A powerful emotion, such as love, joy, hatred, or anger. So no dont want you to inlight me..but thanks anyways <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You see, if we weren't passionate, we simply wouldn't have cared whether or not Vince was coming back to ACC as a Net. Stop stereotyping all Raptor fans because you're just making yourself look bad. You're the one who needs to let it go, because I, for one, give Carter his deserved credit and you're making it sound like he didn't do anything wrong, as if he's a saint or something. </div> No if you were passionate you would care, but in a positive way...like giving him a nice worm welcome back...im not saying you dont boo, you could do that but not the way he got booed ( that was disgusting) and not making ridiculous posters/signs of him. He did alot of positive things for this franchise/city, he deserves better than that. That wasnt being passionate and classy at all. I have nothing against raptors fan, you guys feel Vince have done wrongs to this city. I dont feel the same, i feel ur poor managment and media have messed up this franchise...and will continue to do so, mark my word. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">it doesn't mean he is to be worshipped by coaches. He has to earn the respect and the playing time just like the 12th man would. </div> since when? yep he has to earn it while sitting on the bench hot, they lose media/fans blame him wtf? just dont get it...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">since when? yep he has to earn it while sitting on the bench hot, they lose media/fans blame him wtf? just dont get it...</div> When Carter was sitting on the bench, while he was hot. It was because he was playing regular season games like they were some pick-up games where he wanted to lose. If a player has an attitude problem, the coach should bench that player. Carter was acting like an immature 6 year old and deserved all the media and blame, because Mitchell did the right thing.
Whatever happened, Vince won in the end. Nets made the playoffs. Raps didn't. Raps got pure dog **** for the trade. Babcock's did it again, what more could he possibly do to get fired? Lol at the "we wont make trades til we know it'll benefit us" good going genius. So whether you support Vince or not, that's not the case, in the end, Raps organization done screwed up once again... look at the numbers he's been puttin up in Jersey since he got traded, stats don't lie... although his percentage is still bull, who else they got on that team that can take those shots?
I think it is evident that whenever you trade a superstar you get less in return. As can be seen by the Tmac, Shaq, and Carter trades. Shaq trade gave them a ineffective Odom in the west and an average SF in Butler. Tmac gave them a hothead pg in Francis, who seems to make the team worse by presence. Carter translated to 2 first round picks, hopefully translating to Jarret Jack this year and who knows next year. Anyway, when a player is pouting and demanding a trade it really makes it difficult on the GM to get close to equal value. Shaq pretty much guarantees contendership, and Odom and Butler guarantee nothing even alongside Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">Now what does this mean?</div> That means exactly what it was supposed to mean. I never once said that you can't like Vince but you are making it sound as if I said that. If you can't understand it, that's just too bad because I think everybody else understood. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">why wouldnt he change his team if his fav player got traded? So you also dont want him supporting the nets dont ya? that's exactly what you saying, is that he should not switch teams no matter what if a player leaves or not am i right? if not please explain.</div> He doesn't have to switch teams just because the player got traded. He can still like the Raptors and support Vince at the same time, like Banks and og15. All I was saying is be a loyal fan, not a bandwagon fan. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont need a dictionary, nope sorry.....to me the word "passion" have many different meanings. To me it means love and etc, and this too...A powerful emotion, such as love, joy, hatred, or anger. So no dont want you to inlight me..but thanks anyways </div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">No if you were passionate you would care, but in a positive way...like giving him a nice worm welcome back...im not saying you dont boo, you could do that but not the way he got booed ( that was disgusting) and not making ridiculous posters/signs of him. He did alot of positive things for this franchise/city, he deserves better than that. That wasnt being passionate and classy at all.</div> You say you don't need a dictionary and that the word 'passion' means those things to you, but yet you go on to say something like "if you were passionate you would care, but in a positive way." A powerful emotion doesn't necessarily equal to a 'positive' feeling. You are being hypocritical. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">I have nothing against raptors fan, you guys feel Vince have done wrongs to this city. I dont feel the same, i feel ur poor managment and media have messed up this franchise...and will continue to do so, mark my word.</div> I didn't say you have something against Raptor fans, I said you gotta stop stereotyping us into something that we're not. Again, I did say I appreciate the things he did for the Raptors and the city, but what took place last season isn't one of the things to appreciate. I'm not talking about the trade, I'm talking about the things that happened before the trade. He's done things that made people love him, but he's also done things that weren't so likeable. Like I admit and give Vince credit for the positive things he's done, you should admit that Vince's poor attitude and the disinterested look on his face before the trade were <u>annoying</u> to say the least. We'll see which franchise is 'messed up' , the Raps or the Nets. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Air Fly:</div><div class="quote_post">since when? yep he has to earn it while sitting on the bench hot, they lose media/fans blame him wtf? just dont get it...</div> Since the inauguration of the National Basketball Association. Larry Bird needed discipline, Michael Jordan needed one, and Dennis Rodman definitely needed one.You keep saying Vince was sitting on the bench while he had the hot hands, but how many times did you actually see him scorch his opponents, let alone play his butt off? Sam Mitchell isn't Lenny Wilkens. He is a no-nonsense type of a guy who doesn't let his players - regardless if it's Vince or Rafael Araujo - slack off. When did we or the media blame him for the losses? We didn't blame him for the losses. We called him out for his lack of intensity.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't say Raptor fans in 'general' are less knowledgeable than your average NBA fan when you yourself switched your favourite team to NJ after Vince got traded. That's what ignorant fans do - jumping wagons just because a player got traded. </div> Vink, first of all, in no way am I jumping onto any bandwagon concerning the Nets and Carter. I'll admit to being both a Raptor fan and a Vince fan. I liked the Raptors before Carter joined the League in '99, and have been a huge Vince fan since he his rookie season. From his rookie season up until November, to me, Vince was THE face of the Raptor franchise. He was the reason I looked forward to watching their games on TV, in hopes of seeing him make another highlight reel play. The last 3 years i followed and supported the raptors through thick and thin (mostly thin), when the game wasn't on TV in Winnipeg, I followed it on Courtside Live on NBA.com, and I'm sure I wasn't the only Raps fan who frankly found the games to be less interesting when Vince wasn't in it. All those who boo and insult Vince, In my opinion ARE ignorant fans, because they don't know the full story on why he wanted to be traded. After the first knee injury that resulted because of his insane vertical, fans started posting signs saying "Trade Vince" or "Vince is a baby." If insults from his own fans don't dishearten a player what does. I'm not making this up either. Two years ago, not this year or last year, but TWO years ago, I went to a Raptor game and people were holding up those signs and booing him when he missed a shot. Also, all signs this year pointed to the franchise being in "rebuilding" mode. Vince respected that, but at his age, he can't wait for a team to rebuild, and I can understand why he wanted out. T-Mac, Malone and Baron all did the same, and LeBron is putting so much pressure on the Cavs management to build a contender REALLY soon or he will leave- and don't be surprised if Kobe asks out of LA if they don't show signs of trying to improve. So why don't you go on Cavs, Rockets or Laker posts and insult those guys? Also Maple Leaf Sports is just plain being cheap, and it shows with them not trying to get management with at least some credentials. Babcock had no GM experience prior to last year, why not go for a guy like Earving or someone proven? Their past 2 coaches in KO and Mitchell have had no previous head coaching experience, and it too showed in the way that players reacted towards the two. Mitchell almost made Rafer quit bball, Jrose hates the man, and he got in a physical fight with Vince. Also I remeber the 4th game of the season this year against Portland. Vince made a deep 3 to win the game for the Raps, and what did Mitchell do? He criticized Vince for the shot. So lets recap. Vince puts Toronto on the basketball map, and entices fans into becoming excited about our Canadian franchise, earning his max contract. And in return....he gets his contract, Grunwald signs some players that played key roles in the team's playoff run as a favour to Vince (give me a break, AD was an allstar at the time and the rest of those guys played key roles in our success...fans would have given him hell if he didn't resign JYD or Alvin), MLS takes over the team and makes no commitment towards winning, they sign a succesion of terrible but cheap coaches and an airheaded GM to save some dough, they draft the white wonder-boy Araujo and the fans are booing and heckling him ruthlessly........O ya did I mention they gave his mom a Freakin parking spot...Woopdeedoo. If anything, it's people who boo and insult Vince who jumped the bandwagon. When times were good, it was "We love Vince" or "that's our franchise player", but when things got rough, it's "Vince sucks" or "Vince is a baby." A real fan sticks with his team or player through thick and thin, and in a player's case, regardless of what team he's on. Like I said in my previous post, I still am a fan of the Raps, but I'm a bigger fan of the Nets, and that started even when the team was 12 games below 500, RJ was injured for the season, and the playoffs were an unrealistic fantasy. Let's say CB4 gets traded later on or is lost on free-agency, would you totally renounce being a fan of Bosh and not cheer for his team, or would you risk being a hypocrite and still be a Bosh fan? I know this is a long post, and I can honestly say I put less work and thought into my essays for school, but I had to get that off my chest. All-in-all, if being a fan of Vince and the Nets makes me a "bandwagon-jumper" then whatever, because frankly I could care less.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why you're trying to defend your favourite player. Hell, I would too, but let's face it. You can't say he wasn't wrong on his approach to requesting to be traded. I'm not saying his request for a trade was wrong, but his <u>approach</u> was. I'm a no non-sense kind of a guy and I hate it when players just dog it and not play to the best of their abilities, regardless of circumstances. Vince dogged it until he finally got his wish and I can speak for most of the Raptor fans that we were extremely dissapointed. Would the situation have been different if Vince actually tried hard and played like he was capable of? Certainly. No one would've booed him even if he was traded if he was giving it his all before the trade. It wasn't so much the fact that he got traded that got the fans booing, it was the fact that his body language and facial expression prior to the trade practically spoke he wasn't trying hard at all. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post"> All those who boo and insult Vince, In my opinion ARE ignorant fans, because they don't know the full story on why he wanted to be traded. After the first knee injury that resulted because of his insane vertical, fans started posting signs saying "Trade Vince" or "Vince is a baby." If insults from his own fans don't dishearten a player what does. I'm not making this up either. Two years ago, not this year or last year, but TWO years ago, I went to a Raptor game and people were holding up those signs and booing him when he missed a shot. Also, all signs this year pointed to the franchise being in "rebuilding" mode. Vince respected that, but at his age, he can't wait for a team to rebuild, and I can understand why he wanted out. T-Mac, Malone and Baron all did the same, and LeBron is putting so much pressure on the Cavs management to build a contender REALLY soon or he will leave- and don't be surprised if Kobe asks out of LA if they don't show signs of trying to improve. So why don't you go on Cavs, Rockets or Laker posts and insult those guys? </div> Then you should've said that the first time around, instead of making it sound like all of Raptor fans are ignorant. While I don't believe that those fans are all ignorant, some of them are quite annoying to say the least. I don't know if it's just Vince's character, but if I was getting booed that will just get me to play harder to prove them wrong, not sulk and pout. Besides, T-Mac, LeBron and Kobe didn't ask for a trade did they? What's this about Malone doing the same thing as Vince did? He never asked for a trade nor did he pressure his team to 'build a contender'. He put it on his shoulders, along with John Stockton, to mould his team into a contender. That's what a true franchise player does - they take responsibility. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">Also Maple Leaf Sports is just plain being cheap, and it shows with them not trying to get management with at least some credentials. Babcock had no GM experience prior to last year, why not go for a guy like Earving or someone proven? Their past 2 coaches in KO and Mitchell have had no previous head coaching experience, and it too showed in the way that players reacted towards the two. Mitchell almost made Rafer quit bball, Jrose hates the man, and he got in a physical fight with Vince. Also I remeber the 4th game of the season this year against Portland. Vince made a deep 3 to win the game for the Raps, and what did Mitchell do? He criticized Vince for the shot.</div> How are they being cheap? Come on now, how is Julius Erving more proven than Babcock? Who are you kidding? At least Babcock was part of the front office in Minnesota that drafted Kevin Garnett and developed him. If you think names like Wayne Embry or Alex English don't have enough credentials, you my man, are in some serious need for a help. Kevin O'Neill was hired by Glen Grunwald, not Rob Babcock. While Sam Mitchell might not have any head coaching experience, he's definitely a coach material. He is the one who made Kevin Garnett into a player he is now, incase you didn't know. Rafer wanting to quit basketball? How is that Sam's fault? Rafer got a stupid technical foul and he shouldn't have mouthed off if he knew any better. Jalen Rose hates Sam? Where the hell did you get that from? Jalen should love Sam Mitchell if anything because he gets the ball in the crunch time. Er... if you actually believed Michelle Carter claiming that Mitchell got into a physical altercation with Vince, I don't know what to tell you, other than it's really sad. I don't think Mitchell criticized him after winning that game. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">So lets recap. Vince puts Toronto on the basketball map, and entices fans into becoming excited about our Canadian franchise, earning his max contract. And in return....he gets his contract, Grunwald signs some players that played key roles in the team's playoff run as a favour to Vince (give me a break, AD was an allstar at the time and the rest of those guys played key roles in our success...fans would have given him hell if he didn't resign JYD or Alvin), MLS takes over the team and makes no commitment towards winning, they sign a succesion of terrible but cheap coaches and an airheaded GM to save some dough, they draft the white wonder-boy Araujo and the fans are booing and heckling him ruthlessly........O ya did I mention they gave his mom a Freakin parking spot...Woopdeedoo.</div> MLSE didn't take over the team. They were the owners of the Raptors / Maple Leafs since Day 1. Who are you to say that they didn't make any commitment towards winning? And please, if you're gonna say hiring Julius Erving as the GM is commiting to win, There's a long list of people that will just laugh and say 'NO'. Seriously, what are you going to say when Araujo proves you wrong? Just watch, not 1 week into the season, those who bashed Babcock for drafting Charlie Villanueva will regret for making themselves look like idiots. Not to mention that he STOLE Ukic with the 41st pick because no one else had the brains to go over to Italy and actually see what the kid could do. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting virve119:</div><div class="quote_post">If anything, it's people who boo and insult Vince who jumped the bandwagon. When times were good, it was "We love Vince" or "that's our franchise player", but when things got rough, it's "Vince sucks" or "Vince is a baby." A real fan sticks with his team or player through thick and thin, and in a player's case, regardless of what team he's on. Like I said in my previous post, I still am a fan of the Raps, but I'm a bigger fan of the Nets, and that started even when the team was 12 games below 500, RJ was injured for the season, and the playoffs were an unrealistic fantasy. Let's say CB4 gets traded later on or is lost on free-agency, would you totally renounce being a fan of Bosh and not cheer for his team, or would you risk being a hypocrite and still be a Bosh fan? I know this is a long post, and I can honestly say I put less work and thought into my essays for school, but I had to get that off my chest. All-in-all, if being a fan of Vince and the Nets makes me a "bandwagon-jumper" then whatever, because frankly I could care less.</div> You certainly don't make it sound like you're much of a one. You go on saying that a real fan sticks to his team / player and yet you contradict yourself by saying you 'started' to become a fan of the Nets. And no, I wouldn't boo Bosh because knowing his character, he would play with the best of his abilities even if the management doesn't grant his wish to be traded.
i dont care how much of a fan you were of Vc or the raptors, but you gotta be hella blind if you didn't see vince dogging it over the first 3 months. he just sat there on the bench and tried to laff his problems away.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dabigboshdog:</div><div class="quote_post">i dont care how much of a fan you were of Vc or the raptors, but you gotta be hella blind if you didn't see vince dogging it over the first 3 months. he just sat there on the bench and tried to laff his problems away.</div> Exactly Vc's Good ill admit that, But he played so crap for T.O and then went to Jersey and did better. The only thing i might like about him are him shoes. Btw i'm new so if i didnt anything wrong just tell me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Gwetch:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly Vc's Good ill admit that, But he played so crap for T.O and then went to Jersey and did better. The only thing i might like about him are him shoes. Btw i'm new so if i didnt anything wrong just tell me.</div> Nah man, you didn't do anything wrong. If you're new go to the thread called Raptor Fan Roll Call and introduce yourself and you can read about other Raptor fans who are a part of this forum. And most importantly have a good time! Raptor Fan Roll Call - Page 6
