Excuse my language, Isiah Thomas has a way of putting me into a vicious rage that only 8 or more hours of sleep can stop. An ESPN Page 2 article: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Two Words For You: GENERAL. MISMANAGER. It's official, unless you had already figured it out by now: Isiah has ruined the Knicks. In one day. Again. (Sigh.) *Traded away his one legit C. *Traded for 2 6-6 "power" Fs. *Took on $32M in new salary. Other GMs must salivate working with him, because he's such a nincompoop. I'd rather root for a team run by misers than run by the budget-busting Thomas. </div> For the rest of the editorial: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/quickie
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">It's kinda refreshing as a Raptor fan to find out that Rob Babcock ain't the dumpest GM in the league afterall.</div> Nope, he still is by a mile. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, it wasn't Isiah who decided to draft T-Mac. I mean yeah he made the final call, but he didn't see T-Mac play, yet he drafted him according to the report from his head scout at that time, Craig Neal, who used to be a Raptor assisstant as well and now works in the front office. Craig was very very high on Tracy. He watched most of his HS games that season, and kept pressuring Isiah to make the pick. Isiah wanted to draft Adonal Foyle, and because of Neal's and Grunwald's pressure, and the fact that they were the only 2 "Basketball People" in the front office at that time, he set McGrady as his second option, after Foyle. Draft night rolls around, and Foyle gets selected by the Warriors at 8, one pick before the Raptors. Having seeing Tracy's stats and the fact that Craig Neal told the management that McGrady will turn out to be a "Scottie Pippen" type player -which drew a lot of critisim towards Neal and Isiah in Tracy's first 2 year- made Isiah select him at 9. So, most of the work done on McGrady was by Neal and Grunwald, Isiah just listened to them.</div> So because he didn't necessarily get McGrady by himself, he sin't a good drafter. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, in the 1996 draft, he selected Camby over Marbury, Ray Allen, Antoine Walker, Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and Jermaine O'Neal.</div> Camby is still a very solid big man and I'd take him over Ilguaskas, Walker, Marbury, Peja too. If Camby wasn't always injuried he would have gotten more credit. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So no, Isiah isn't a good drafter.</div> So drafting the former rookie of the year, and a great steal in the draft isn't good? I can see you saying he's overrated, but I think saying he isn't a good drafter is going a bit far. At the very least give him credit for being a decent drafter.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Nope, he still is by a mile. .</div> Emmmm, no he's not, as long as Isiah is still around. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So because he didn't necessarily get McGrady by himself, he sin't a good drafter.</div> No, I didn't say that!! Knicks Ananyst gave him the credit for drafting McGardy, that's where I replied and said that T-Mac was scouted and selected by Neal and Grunwald. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Camby is still a very solid big man and I'd take him over Ilguaskas, Walker, Marbury, Peja too. If Camby wasn't always injuried he would have gotten more credit.</div> If you're saying you'd take Camby over Marbury and Peja, then you got other issues you need to take care of first. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So drafting the former rookie of the year, and a great steal in the draft isn't good? I can see you saying he's overrated, but I think saying he isn't a good drafter is going a bit far. At the very least give him credit for being a decent drafter.</div> Ok, he is a decent drafter, although Damon Stoudemire played good for two years abecause he was handeling the ball all the time while he was a Raptors. But your the guy was saying Isiah is a "Hell Of a Drafter" not a "Decent Drafter". There's differnece!
2 good deals ONLY if isiah has the same thinking procces as i do lets start with the players, you may say the knicks are adding cap over the next 3 years, all i can say is SO? are the knicks going to magicly get under the cap in 2 years?no so it doesnt matter, taylors contract comes off the books the same year houston does, by that time if rose is still in the team, he is expiring and the knicks can deal him for a better player. 2007/2008 season is a season the knicks must ABSOLUTLY(sp) be under the cap,(Lebron, Carmello,Wade,Bosh) and i can be done. most of the players come off 06/07 such as houston,taylor etc.all that will be left is Marbury,Crawford,Ariza?,Sweetney, rose who like i said becomes gold with his expiring and Jerome williams who has a team option(knicks will not pick it up IF he's even on the team) lets go on to the picks,their are many things thomas can do with the picks, draft with them(taft, warrick???) OR he can do what the nets did and swing them along with penny/kurt/tim with 2 picks for a Brand type of star. im not dissapointed with the deal at all, not to mention thesetrades gives us TOUGHNESSS!!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">Emmmm, no he's not, as long as Isiah is still around.</div> Um, no. You don't even know how this trade will turn out so how are you going to judge it? What if Taylor works out with Aguirre and becomes a legit big man and Rose becomes a great player role player off the bench that provides a huge spark. It's too quick to judge the trade especially since no one has played yet and the trade was less than 24 hours ago. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, I didn't say that!! Knicks Ananyst gave him the credit for drafting McGardy, that's where I replied and said that T-Mac was scouted and selected by Neal and Grunwald.</div> Well, you did say he wasn't a good drafter. Did you not? I said because he didn't necessarily get McGrady by himself, does that detract from his great drafting resume? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you're saying you'd take Camby over Marbury and Peja, then you got other issues you need to take care of first.</div> Why not? Marbury is selfish, plays no defense if any and has a huge attitude problem and isn't a leader at all. Peja is one dimensional and can pretty much only shoot. Camby is almost a certain double-double, gives you many blocks and locks up the paint pretty well. He also plays with a great deal of energy and heart which is very admirable. If you look at stats, Camby is more efficient then Peja playing 8 less minutes, and only a little bit less efficent than Marbury while playing 10 less minutes. And those are only the stats! What about the intangibles Camby brings which is more than what Marbury or Peja brings. Obviously, it appears you are blinded by the stat sheet. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, he is a decent drafter, although Damon Stoudemire played good for two years abecause he was handeling the ball all the time while he was a Raptors. But your the guy was saying Isiah is a "Hell Of a Drafter" not a "Decent Drafter". There's differnece!</div> Well, let's not take away from anything Damon did. 20ppg and 9apg is very good especially if it was amongst the leaders. He also got the rookie of the year award over players like Stackhouse and Michael Finley. With the 43rd pick he got a player with loads of potential in Trevor Ariza who had lottery talent. Actually I never said he was a "Hell Of a Drafter" Knicks Analyst said that, I suggested that you give Isiah his due credit as a drafter after you said he wasn't a good drafter. Isiah in my opinion is a good drafter and I think he can get somebody good out of this years draft.
I think Isiah is trying to move up in the draft, and seriosuly, since when does payroll matter to the Knicks? They have the 29th and 30th picks in the draft now, so I don't know if it's worth it, but Isiah thinks he can get something done. Not really that good a trade looking right now, I don't think he'll be able to get a Top 3 pick with all he has, and the #30 and #29 pick for those contracts isn't really woth it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting knicks235:</div><div class="quote_post">2 good deals ONLY if isiah has the same thinking procces as i do lets start with the players, you may say the knicks are adding cap over the next 3 years, all i can say is SO? are the knicks going to magicly get under the cap in 2 years?no so it doesnt matter, taylors contract comes off the books the same year houston does, by that time if rose is still in the team, he is expiring and the knicks can deal him for a better player. 2007/2008 season is a season the knicks must ABSOLUTLY(sp) be under the cap,(Lebron, Carmello,Wade,Bosh) and i can be done. most of the players come off 06/07 such as houston,taylor etc.all that will be left is Marbury,Crawford,Ariza?,Sweetney, rose who like i said becomes gold with his expiring and Jerome williams who has a team option(knicks will not pick it up IF he's even on the team) lets go on to the picks,their are many things thomas can do with the picks, draft with them(taft, warrick???) OR he can do what the nets did and swing them along with penny/kurt/tim with 2 picks for a Brand type of star. im not dissapointed with the deal at all, not to mention thesetrades gives us TOUGHNESSS!!</div> I haven't seen you post in a minute knicks235! I'm glad you did and we can have another opinion to this deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I think Isiah is trying to move up in the draft, and seriosuly, since when does payroll matter to the Knicks? They have the 29th and 30th picks in the draft now, so I don't know if it's worth it, but Isiah thinks he can get something done. Not really that good a trade looking right now, I don't think he'll be able to get a Top 3 pick with all he has, and the #30 and #29 pick for those contracts isn't really woth it.</div> But, do you think a package of all of them including next year, plus say an expiring contract and our original can get us a higher position in the draft? I think so. Or maybe if we get really desperate, he can trade one of our youngn's.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Um, no. You don't even know how this trade will turn out so how are you going to judge it? What if Taylor works out with Aguirre and becomes a legit big man and Rose becomes a great player role player off the bench that provides a huge spark. It's too quick to judge the trade especially since no one has played yet and the trade was less than 24 hours ago.</div>Why the hell are you stressing that all the time? For all I know, the trade could hurt the Knicks, but it could help them on the other hand. If no one knows, why don't you tell whoever says that the Knicks were right to make the deals the same thing too? Pure definition of a blind fan's bias. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well, you did say he wasn't a good drafter. Did you not? I said because he didn't necessarily get McGrady by himself, does that detract from his great drafting resume? </div>He said Isiah is a decent drafter, but not the drafting god you guys have made him out to be. Drafting Camby is also questionable in hindsight, as Ilgauskas is obviously the better player now, and has been since Camby joined the Knicks. At the time, Ray Allen, Peja, Ilgauskas and Walker would all have been better picks. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well, let's not take away from anything Damon did. 20ppg and 9apg is very good especially if it was amongst the leaders. He also got the rookie of the year award over players like Stackhouse and Michael Finley.</div>Sure, Damon put up numbers, but the Raptors won 21 games that year (I think). Big deal, on a losing team, someone had to be putting up numbers, and Damon was that guy. Once he got to the Blazers where there were more talented players than him, Damon's stats went down to 13/6, pretty mediocre for a number one pick.
What would be the Knicks pick this season? Let's say the Knicks have the 6th pick, then he can package the 6th pick + #29 and #30 to let's say Atlanta for the #3 pick and their 2nd round pick which would be #33 if they have the 3rd pick. Or you could just hope you win the lottery, then maybe still try and package a young guy and those picks for a late lottery pick, or a young guy and one of those for a 16-20th or so pick. This draft might not be that great though, but we'll see...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post"> Sure, Damon put up numbers, but the Raptors won 21 games that year (I think). Big deal, on a losing team, someone had to be putting up numbers, and Damon was that guy. Once he got to the Blazers where there were more talented players than him, Damon's stats went down to 13/6, pretty mediocre for a number one pick.</div>Yeah, at the time Toronto was pretty much nothing more than a simple expansion team. And then came Portland, and who exactly was so excellent of a complementary player around him? The team's focus wasn't even on Stoudamire, it wasn't all his fault. Stoudamire was injured early on with Portland, never got a good chance to gel with his teammates, the team wasn't necessarily the same all of those years. And since his injury way back when, he hasn't been the same. Who's to say he wouldn't average 18 points and 9 assists or so had he stayed healthy? Was Isiah supposed to know that in advance?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Why the hell are you stressing that all the time? For all I know, the trade could hurt the Knicks, but it could help them on the other hand. If no one knows, why don't you tell whoever says that the Knicks were right to make the deals the same thing too? Pure definition of a blind fan's bias.</div> Well what deal have we made recently other than this? Oh when we just traded for TT? Wasn't around. When we just got Crawford? Discussions were already a month old by then. After the Crawford deal, we just made this trade yesterday. So the Knicks have made no tdeals since the summer for me to actually commeny on. Why do you insist on paying attention to where I post and what I do all the time? Pure definiton of not hopping off. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He said Isiah is a decent drafter, but not the drafting god you guys have made him out to be. Drafting Camby is also questionable in hindsight, as Ilgauskas is obviously the better player now, and has been since Camby joined the Knicks. At the time, Ray Allen, Peja, Ilgauskas and Walker would all have been better picks.</div> At first he said, he wasn't a decent drafter. I don't know whether Ilguaskas is better than Camby. Maybe this year he might be having a better season, but overall throughout the their career, I'd take Camby. I still consider Camby better than Walker, Peja and Z. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, Damon put up numbers, but the Raptors won 21 games that year (I think). Big deal, on a losing team, someone had to be putting up numbers, and Damon was that guy. Once he got to the Blazers where there were more talented players than him, Damon's stats went down to 13/6, pretty mediocre for a number one pick.</div> Just what KA said. How would Isiah know that? Isiah can spot some good talent, but he isn't a fortune teller.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">What would be the Knicks pick this season? Let's say the Knicks have the 6th pick, then he can package the 6th pick + #29 and #30 to let's say Atlanta for the #3 pick and their 2nd round pick which would be #33 if they have the 3rd pick. Or you could just hope you win the lottery, then maybe still try and package a young guy and those picks for a late lottery pick, or a young guy and one of those for a 16-20th or so pick. This draft might not be that great though, but we'll see...</div> Yeah exactly. We can do that and maybe even our pick next year from S.A. It seems decent to me. In fact, I think it'l be better than last years. But just like you said, we'll see...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Well what deal have we made recently other than this? Oh when we just traded for TT? Wasn't around. When we just got Crawford? Discussions were real old by then. After the Crawford deal, we just made this trade yesterday. So the Knicks have made no tdeals since the summer for me to actually commeny on. Why do you insist on where I post and what I do all the time? Pure definiton of not hopping off.</div>In this thread alone, you've said that whenever someone mentioned the deal as bad for the Knicks. Meanwhile, when knicks235 said he liked the deals, why didn't you say that time might prove him wrong, just like you did to me? One reason: you actually like the trades, while 90% of the whole world doesn't. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">At first he said, he wasn't a decent drafter. I don't know whether Ilguaskas is better than Camby. Maybe this year he might be having a better season, but overall throughout the their career, I'd take Camby. I still consider Camby better than Walker, Peja and Z.</div> Ilguaskas has 15/8 for his career, and much of his early years have been derailed by season-ending injuries. Camby has 11 and 8 for his career. He's a better shotblocker and rebounder, but I'd take Ilgauskas over him any day. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, at the time Toronto was pretty much nothing more than a simple expansion team. And then came Portland, and who exactly was so excellent of a complementary player around him? The team's focus wasn't even on Stoudamire, it wasn't all his fault. Stoudamire was injured early on with Portland, never got a good chance to gel with his teammates, the team wasn't necessarily the same all of those years. And since his injury way back when, he hasn't been the same. Who's to say he wouldn't average 18 points and 9 assists or so had he stayed healthy? Was Isiah supposed to know that in advance?</div>Granted that his draft class was pure weak after the top 5 in hindsight, Stoudamire still didn't exactly do what was expected of a Rookie Of The Year who put up fantastic numbers on a losing team. You say that the focus wasn't on him in Portland, but why so? If he's that good, why wouldn't a team want to focus around Damon instead? After all Portland gave for Damon, he's been a pure disappointment.
For people who don't understand why mrj18 would take Camby over some high profile players, I think I know why. Camby was a poor mans Ben Wallace...he could anchor a defense with his shotblocking and hustle, eliminating 10-15 points a game. He was also a rebounding machine, and even though his statline was never great the intangibles he brought to the game were excellent.
Portland gave a lot to Toronto. Stoudamire got injured before he got a chance to gel in their system. And who are you to say that Stoudamire wasn't worthy of Rookie of the year solely because his team was awful. Are you saying that he was responsible for his entire team? Damon was originally the focus of Portland, everyone knows that - then he got injured. Badly. A bad injury that killed his career, and now you criticize Isiah for it. Wow.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">In this thread alone, you've said that whenever someone mentioned the deal as bad for the Knicks. Meanwhile, when knicks235 said he liked the deals, why didn't you say that time might prove him wrong, just like you did to me? One reason: you actually like the trades, while 90% of the whole world doesn't.</div> I think the trade is decent. He doesn't need me to tell him that when 90% of the world disagrees with him so why would I waste my time when it's obvious he read the opinions of most of the people in this thread. Well, obviously you don't come to the Knicks forum a lot. Me as well as many other posters post our dissatisfaction with Isiah on numerous occasions. This is one deal. You said right in making the deals as if they were many deals that I posted only 'positive' things about. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ilguaskas has 15/8 for his career, and much of his early years have been derailed by season-ending injuries. Camby has 11 and 8 for his career. He's a better shotblocker and rebounder, but I'd take Ilgauskas over him any day.</div> You mention all of this he was on a losing team stuff, so how is it a big deal that Ilguaskas put up good numbers on the Cavaliers who haven't been to the playoffs in very long. Ilguaskas only played 4 games in the playoffs throughout his entire career. He put up good numbers so how is this different from Stoudemire? So would someone like Marcus Camby be better according to your standards because he played more than 11 times more playoff games than Ilguaskas? Or that he has experience playing a big role in the playoffs including the NBA finals, against one of the best players in NBA history?? Exactly only stats but, does that make up for the times teams guards decided not to come into the paint because of the ginat standing there? Or those times Camby didn't get the block however, altered the shot of someone else. Or what energy he brought and the many times he was the catalyst of wining a game because his blocked shots started mommentum?
I'm puzzled on how you picked Camby over Peja and Z. Peja is one of the best scorers in the league. He's an above average defender, forget all that stereotype stuff about the Europeans being weak defenders, but Peja is better than the average NBA player at defending. His scoring and defense defintly puts him over the top of Camby's overall defense (blocking, rebounding) and scoring. Z is still the better option than Camby. Put Camby in Z's situations over these past 8 years and see how we does. I seriously doubt that the Cavs would be the same team as they were at the time. Sure maybe save a few points defensively, but he would give them less scoring. Z creates much more scoring oppurtunies for his opponents than what Camby saves his team on defense. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he could anchor a defense with his shotblocking and hustle, eliminating 10-15 points a game</div> OK...10-15 is defintly stretching it. He's not a great man to man defender since he can get burned easily inside, but he's tough and competes, however he's more of a good help defender.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You mention all of this he was on a losing team stuff, so how is it a big deal that Ilguaskas put up good numbers on the Cavaliers who haven't been to the playoffs in very long. Ilguaskas only played 4 games in the playoffs throughout his entire career. He put up good numbers so how is this different from Stoudemire? So would someone like Marcus Camby be better according to your standards because he played more than 11 times more playoff games than Ilguaskas? Or that he has experience playing a big role in the playoffs including the NBA finals, against one of the best players in NBA history?? Exactly only stats but, does that make up for the times teams guards decided not to come into the paint because of the ginat standing there? Or those times Camby didn't get the block however, altered the shot of someone else. Or what energy he brought and the many times he was the catalyst of wining a game because his blocked shots started mommentum?</div>Ilgauskas has been doing it consistently. Stoudamire started out hot and became a supposed elite player, while Z was always quietly and consistently putting up 12-16ppg, through the team's rough years, and also their successful one, which is this season. Stoudamire has been consistent in Portland too, but it didn't change when the Blazers won. Z is having career numbers in this season where Cleveland is doing good, but Stoudamire's stats are always 13/6, no matter if the team is winning or not. A good player steps up to the occasion when their team needs him to.
A good player who has to be mindful of his body in every single game the man plays, as he gets older and his body becomes more and more vulnerable and more difficult to tend to? You've been a little harsh on Stoudamire, Trip.
