<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Bias is in everything we all say. No matter how hard we try to be fair, favoritism comes out. If you werent has big a Knicks fan you might see the situation a bit differently, much the same way I would view the Raps differently. Trying to be objective is very hard, but very important.</div> I know, but honestly I believe I?m keeping it real in this thread and even if I?m a little bias, I don?t think it?s at a outrageous degree. It doesn?t matter though, that?s both our opinions and they?re valuable if we are supporting them with reasonable information. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sweetney shows great promise, but you speak of him like he's a gaurenteed 20-10 guy. There's no doubt in your mind he's going to blow up and be one of the best PF's in the league. In my opinion that might be alittle bit too much, but you never know it could happen. Bosh...maybe bosh wont blow up, but I think its a likely possibility. I see Bosh being a 22-10-4-3(blocks) kind of guy. Bosh has improved from his first to second season while playing large minutes in both season, unlike Sweetney, and being the primary focus of the team, unlike Sweetney. I think its just easier to judge his potential based on those facts. He could die down like Butler, but Butler did his fading in his second season, Bosh has grown rather than die down.</div> I see the promise too, and the same way you feel about Bosh averaging 22/10/4/ and probably leading the league with 3 blocks a game, I feel the same way about Sweetney averaging 20/10. Well, Bosh has help. You?re making it sound like he?s Okafor on the Bobcats. He has Rose with him, Alston and Donyell off the bench. His coverage isn?t as intense. Sweetney gets attention as well. It?s not like he?s 6?10 with a Prince like wingspan. He has tough opponents every night and still puts up great numbers. I mean an interesting stat is he is averaging 10.8ppg and 8 rebounds when given 25 minutes as a starter the last 3 games. If you gave him 10 more, I?m sure he could average 14-15ppg with 10 rebounds. That?s very decent and now with him starting and getting his deserved minutes, he?s producing. Well I don?t think we can guarantee anything so early especially if both of the players haven?t been in the league for 2 years yet. You think Bosh can put up that MVP stat line and I think Sweetney can put up those very good stats. Do you think Bosh is a definite superstar like CourtVision even though he?s putting up good numbers in his second year? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No stats dont work that way, you cant just times or divide numbers based on minutes and have an accurate reprisentation of their abilities, value, skill or potential. There are too many variables in between like the teams style of play, the complimentary players around them, there role on the team, the pressure on them to produce and the pressure on them from opposing teams.</div> I am aware of that. I?m just saying, when Sweetney gets the same amount of minutes as Bosh, he puts up very good numbers which are either similar or exceed Bosh?s numbers. So basically, he?s very efficient with the minutes he?s given. So given 38 minutes in the near future, I?m sure 20 and 10 will not be out of the possibility. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No question Bosh could benefit from gaining some muscle but its not necessary for him really. To answer your question i view Bosh with Garnett potential. They have similiar styles, physical attributes and abilities, and similiar skill levels(Garnett at Bosh's age). The big difference i see is that Bosh needs to play with fire consistently like Garnett, and he needs to force his will on games more rather than play other peoples games. Sweetney is good, and he has some decent post moves, but he's no where near has good has Brand was at his age, and he's behind the 8-ball physically being shorter and less athletic. I dont see him being anything more than a poor-mans Brand, but like i've said...thats still pretty damn good for a player. And its just my opinion, if you dont agree thats fine. You dont have to convince me either, we'll find out in time who's right.</div> I think it really is necessary for Bosh. Yes he can score with some devastating quick moves, but what happens on the other end of the floor? On the defensive end, Bosh can easily get punished in the post so he?ll have to work on that. Sure he might get a couple of blocks here and there, but his 1 or 2 blocks wont add up to the many opportunities he gives people on the defensive end. Bosh the next Garnett? I think that might be stretching it a bit. I think Bosh might become a Jermaine O?Neal type of player, but you?re giving him some big expectations labeling him as a potential ?Big Ticket? and as the reigning MVP. Bosh would have to be like a really starving man?s Garnett. A man clinging toNot taking anything away from him, but KG was really good and came from High School. Huge difference right there. Garnett had much more skills at his age than Bosh. Sweetney has some great post moves especially for his age. He is also an underrated defender as well. He will thrive more on his size rather than his athleticism. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sweetney could develop a nice little jumper...and that would benefit him alot. But its a project and there's no telling if he'll be able to do it consistently. Learning how to shoot is not easy...just ask Shaq how easy it was for him to learn how to shoot free throws. He might never get a jumper, but Bosh doesnt need to learn new skills, only how to use them more efficiently.</div> Sweetney isn?t Shaq, I think that?s a totally different situation. Learning to shoot is easy. All it takes is practice. It really is that simple. Anyone can benefit from learning new skills, there isn?t a flawless player in the league. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure its your method. You doubled Sweetney's minutes to see his numbers and then compared those numbers with Bosh's...resulting in you saying that Sweetney put up just has good of numbers has Bosh does if he played the same minutes. That was your attempt at making Sweetney look like has good has Bosh. Well i dont even need to double the minutes. Bonner puts up better numbers in ppg, rpg, fg%, 3p% and free throw %, and he does it in 4% less playing time. So you see, its not a matter of Bosh outweighing the potential of both Ariza and Sweetney. My man the Red Rocket can hold his own vs Ariza and Bosh is clear cut better than Sweetney. Why does it matter how much better, the fact is we're talking about potential, and by saying Bosh>Sweetney, I'm saying Bosh has more. I dont think you could argue that Sweetney is has good has Bosh is at this very moment. And if you factor in that Bosh is younger with less expierence and more pressure and yet he still gets it done.....its over. But I'm gunna stop this cause it doesnt matter. The thread was only to assess the potential for the future of the Atlantic division, not to compare players that shouldnt be compared.</div> When Sweetney gets the same amount of time as Bosh, he puts up similar or better stats than Bosh. Sweetney didn?t have that many 30+ games with Kurt Thomas around, but when he did he put up good numbers. My attempt was to show you how good Sweetney?s numbers were and if you thought Bosh was good, you?d have to think the same about Sweetney as well. And I thought the stats didn?t mean much? His numbers are almost identical to Ariza. He is less athletic and mostly scores on open jumpers. He barely gets to the free throw line (less than 1 attempt per game), his defense isn?t nearly as good as Ariza, and he isn?t as good of a passer. Ariza is a good all around player while Bonner is somewhat one dimensional. Actually Bosh has more experience playing with the Raptors getting more minutes. He especially got a lot of minutes last year when the Raptors had all of those injuries and didn?t make the playoffs. In a sense, Sweetney is putting up those good numers as a rookie. I wouldn?t say his pressure is so much bigger than Sweetney. They both have good supporting casts and Bosh?s role is bigger. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dont look now....but the Knicks have one "of the NBA?s worse records", i dont think you should use that fact to back up the statement that its uber-difficult to make the switch from Chicago to New York. Both teams /were/are less than good, and on both teams he shot the ball more than anybody else, with a horrible %. And on both teams he was thought of has a defensive sieve. If you say he's getting better on D, than thats really good for him. But the fact is he's 25 and is still a very poor defender, in part because of his size, but also due to his lack of defensive effort.</div> Well the Bulls back then were different from the Knicks right now. There is no comparison at all. The Knicks have one of the NBA?s worst records, however have a legit chance of making the playoffs. At least much more of a chance than making it than the Bulls. He shot the ball more because he was playing shooting guard and the Bulls counted on him more to score. Once Rose, and Marshall left, he needed to be more of a scorer. Also when there is little chance of making the playoffs, those ill-advised shots are more tolerable than a team actually trying to make a run. His defense hasn?t really been there because of his size. He his a combo guard yes, but he is actually a natural PG. He has a PG body so he is very vulnerable to post ups and getting it shot over him from some of the taller 2?s in the league. He is 25 which is very young and his defense can improve. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually if anything, wouldnt you say its worse to be chucking on a team thats "trying to make a run in the east"?! And besides, NY has the 8th worst record in the league and despite the fact that they technically, statisically, have a shot at the playoffs still it doesnt make them a good team, and its not very likely anyways.</div> Well that?s why he?s telling the coaching staff to get on him more for him taking ill-advised shots. It also is kind of hard going up against bigger and stronger players on a night in and night out basis so some of his ?chucking? can be excused. He has been taking smarter shots as of late. No one said that, but the fact of the matter is there is still a legit chance, and the Knicks aren?t giving up. There record isn?t very good, but whatever it?s worth, they still can make it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are right about this, i screwed up and added his 3 point shots. Either way 16.3 shots per game is alot for someone shooting 39% from the field.</div> Yes it is, but it is improving. About 43% of his 16 shots he shoots are 3?s and he shoots that pretty effectively. The rest is what he really needs to work on. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's had 5 offseasons already to put on weight, why are you so sure he's going to do it this year?</div> Well it was different because he was playing a different position. 190 for a PG is different from a SG. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Being 25 and seeing his defensive play, all i can think of is how he'll be the best 42.5 year old defender the NBA has ever seen.</div> Huh? All I know is his defense has been improving and he just recently had a career high in steals. It?s getting there and at 24 going on 25, I think he?s still pretty young. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And less quality picks. And they dont have a franchise player like Toronto does in Bosh.</div> Actually I think Ariza, Crawford, and Sweetney are a pretty solid foundation for the future. I think it?s more solid than Toronto, who really just have Bosh. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The market card is great but when i rated NY's potential in the next 4 years I outweighed it with the fact they are now 70 million OVER the cap, and it doesnt appear has though there trying to lighten it at all.</div> Well NY has so many benefits and I think many more FA?s will be more interested in living in NY than Toronto. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The sixers got Rodney Rogers and a permenently injured probably retiring Mashburn for G. Rob's 15 million.</div> Robinson was a bad fit even off the court for the Sixers from what I heard. And as I said before, we have double that amount which means we can get a much better player. Don?t you think? I noticed this is the only incident that you are basing it on. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if Denver's pick turns out to be a 30th toronto will still pick better because Phili's pick>Spurs pick.</div> Yeah, but how much better? Babcock isn?t the greatest drafter in the world either. How do you know that he can draft another disappointment like Araujo. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Many teams have has good a prospect has Bosh? Sure, there's Wade, Amare, LBJ, carmelo perhaps, umm......maybe Gordon if he keeps it up....Deng looks solid....that's all i got. Other teams could make arguements, like Charlotte, Orlando, Chicago again for Hinrich(man chicago's good), but NY can NOT "match that". These are the comments that infuriate me.... I'm sorry but Sweetney and Ariza do not equal Bosh even if you dont factor in Bonner, who's a pretty solid player himself.</div> Well I guess that is an opinion thing. I think Sweetney a potential 20/10 guy and Ariza an at least 15/5/5 guy in my opinion is better than your opinion of a potential 24/10/4/3bpg guy. I mean those are two great players and saying Bosh is so great that he?s better than those two combined I don?t agree with. I never even brought up Chicago. Of course they have great young players they?ve sucked for so many years now. Heck, almost everyone in Chicago is pretty young. I don?t even remember bringing up Chicago in this argument. Besides, they?re not even in the Atlantic division. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok fine, thats ok... you can have your opinion. If you consider him a good or even average defensive player, thats your choice. Just remember i read alot of the post game analysis of the Knicks and that i'm choosing not to cut and paste some quote's just because i want you to have your opinion and i dont want to argue mine.</div> Never said he had good defense. I just think your defensive knock on him was a bit exaggerated. Crawford?s defense has been improving. He?s inconsistent on the defensive end, and I am sure it will improve in the future. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Has he played an NBA game yet? You're right though, the Raps should sign Diop, Wagner and Moiso...there all young players and put up some good numbers in highschool/college...we'd be loaded with potential. Seriously come on man...he's yet to play a game. Dont bring him into the same conversation has a quote by you saying you're not being biased in favour of your team. He can become a decent player...hell i can become a decent player...but the fact is you have NO evidence what so ever to prove that Sweetney, Ariza or Butler can/will make that step and yet you talk about them like they're sure things.</div> Butler was just brought up to show you that that?s not the only young player they have on the Knicks. He has potential, but he didn?t play a game yet I?m just saying the Knicks have more young players than 3 and only 3. You can throw Sundov into the mix too. You don?t have any evidence that Bosh can/will develop into a superstar or the next KG like it?s a sure thing either. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Remember? You guys were reminded that you keep your pick this year if its in the lottary....you guys got excited and started a thread on it and some prospects. You do know that by "keeping" it, it only means it delay's the pick going to the other team...</div> I guess you learn something everyday, I didn?t know that. I thought we keep our pick and keep it for good. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">History says they wont. How many have? Did Dampier?</div> Well Dampier wasn?t a restricted free agent. Also Rasheed was about to, but it?s understandable because he won a championship with the Pistons. Walker was thinking about the same thing as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">^ oliver miller....but his opinion doesnt matter.....he's fat j/k</div> Huh?
shapecity is right, I said the same thing in my post, yes, many have misconceptions about the whole Canada thing, but even outside of that, we're not a winning team, we've had so many player troubles in the last 2 years, and we really only have one good player in Bosh. Players in the league right now aren't looking to go play with Chris Bosh, our biggest FA signing was Hakeem Olajuwon, and that was when we were winning. Yes, everyone that comes here likes it, but it's not about them liking it here, it's about getting them to come here in the first place. Rafer Alston came back here because he liked it when he first came here on a 10 day contract. That's why he came back, we aren't going to get all the other FA's in the league to come to our team on 10 day contracts. The other FA's we've had have been non-significant players, we don't attract FA's, it's really a fact, and with the Raps not winning, it won't get better. About Bosh and Sweetney, first of all I don't see Bosh as a 22-10-4-3 player, how in the world is Bosh going to start averaging 3 blocks a game out of nowhere? He's going to become Camby, Ben Wallace, Theo Ratliff or Kirilenko just like that, after averaging 1.4 and 1.3 blocks in his first 2 seasons? I think Bosh will be a guy that puts up 20-24 points | 9-10 rebounds | 3 assists , and about 1.5 blocks a game. He'll be a good player, but statistically he'll be more like Shareef Abdur-Rahim than KG or Duncan. Shareef in his best years put up 20 points | 10 rebounds | 1.1 blocks and shot about 47% from the field. Sweetney needs a lot of conditioning work, but he can also be a fairly good player. I see him as a guy who in 2 years if he can condition a lot, puts up about 15-17 points | 9-11 rebounds | 1-2 assists | and a little under a block a game. Sweetney is more of a complimentary player and second option than a main guy or franchise player. Right now Sweetney has some things he needs to work on, he needs to improve as a passer, he needs to cut down his turnovers, needs to imrpove his foul rate, and he needs the conditioning work.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Sweetney needs a lot of conditioning work, but he can also be a fairly good player. I see him as a guy who in 2 years if he can condition a lot, puts up about 15-17 points | 9-11 rebounds | 1-2 assists | and a little under a block a game. Sweetney is more of a complimentary player and second option than a main guy or franchise player. Right now Sweetney has some things he needs to work on, he needs to improve as a passer, he needs to cut down his turnovers, needs to imrpove his foul rate, and he needs the conditioning work.</div> og15, I see that for him next year! When Sweetney gets about 30 minutes, he gives you those numbers up there. I don't think he needs a whole bunch of conditioning. He might not be a main go to guy on the Knicks because they have Ariza, and Crawford, but he can definitely be a go to guy. I see him putting up 20/11/2-3. Yes he is that good and his work ethic is really what will lift him. I mean this guy in the summer was just working and working! Once he improves on his fouls, I see him putting up some great numbers. He is very effective in the little minutes he gets this season and the Knicks are just starting to run plays through him. I mean 18 points in the first quarter is what he gave us when they actually fed him. Sweetney often gets doubled and is gradually learning how to pass out of them well. Btw, I've noticed that you use a lot of interesting statistics when you post. Could you post Sweetney's stats when he gets 30+ minutes?
Just to add a little bit, I don't think it'll be so easy to score 20 points per game. There are currently only about 25 players in the L that are maintaining that feat. The potential is there, but that can be said about a lot of young players who turn to be nothing more than role players or busts. I'm not so sure that Sweetney is able to average 20 points per game, simply because he isn't the focal point of the offense. Marbury, Crawford, Kurt Thomas, and Tim Thomas are all ahead of Sweetney in terms of offensive options. Then you add in that the Knicks have also Mo Taylor and Malik Rose, there will be less time for him produce. Bosh is likely to be the focal point of the offense in Toronto and thus will get the majority of touches and minutes. From that, there is the greater chance of him putting up the better numbers. Personally, there I think there is greater potential in Bosh because he has the height and quickness and athleticism, things that Sweetney doesn't have. Sweetney has more skills in the low block than Bosh, more strength, and a better knack for rebounding, but he can't grow taller than Bosh or get quicker or more athletic whereas Bosh can learn to be a better rebounder, get stronger and develop more low post skills. Of course, this all depends on Bosh's work ethic which I don't have a knowledge of. I know that Sweetney has a great work ethic, so I think if he works hard enough he can become something great. He just has to work much harder to make up for his athleticism and height.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">og15, I see that for him next year! When Sweetney gets about 30 minutes, he gives you those numbers up there. I don't think he needs a whole bunch of conditioning. He might not be a main go to guy on the Knicks because they have Ariza, and Crawford, but he can definitely be a go to guy. I see him putting up 20/11/2-3. Yes he is that good and his work ethic is really what will lift him. I mean this guy in the summer was just working and working! Once he improves on his fouls, I see him putting up some great numbers. He is very effective in the little minutes he gets this season and the Knicks are just starting to run plays through him. I mean 18 points in the first quarter is what he gave us when they actually fed him. Sweetney often gets doubled and is gradually learning how to pass out of them well. Btw, I've noticed that you use a lot of interesting statistics when you post. Could you post Sweetney's stats when he gets 30+ minutes?</div> I think you added to why I felt he needs conditioning work. Many times I see him play, or if I'm following a play by play of a New York game, he scores early, but later in the game doesn't seem to be there offensively. Maybe it's his teammates not giving him the ball, or something else, but it could also be him getting worn out as the game goes by. Sweetney has had 6 games where he's played 30 or more MPG his numbers are: 15.0 points | 9.2 rebounds | 1.3 assists | 1.17 steals | 1.6 blocks | 5.3 FT attempts | 56.7% FG | 32 MPG The numbers are pretty good, it would be more imformative if he had 15-20 games playing 30 MPG or more, but that's promising. The other good thing is that he's also only averaging 1.7 turnovers, and 3.2 fouls in those games. Let's see games with 28+ MPG, he's had 8 games with 28 or more minutes, and his production: 16.0 points | 8.3 rebounds | 1.3 assists | 0.88 steals | 1.4 blocks | 5.5 FT attempts | 58.5% FG | 31 MPG | 1.5 turnovers | 2.9 fouls Not bad at all
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I think you added to why I felt he needs conditioning work. Many times I see him play, or if I'm following a play by play of a New York game, he scores early, but later in the game doesn't seem to be there offensively. Maybe it's his teammates not giving him the ball, or something else, but it could also be him getting worn out as the game goes by. Sweetney has had 6 games where he's played 30 or more MPG his numbers are: 15.0 points | 9.2 rebounds | 1.3 assists | 1.17 steals | 1.6 blocks | 5.3 FT attempts | 56.7% FG | 32 MPG The numbers are pretty good, it would be more imformative if he had 15-20 games playing 30 MPG or more, but that's promising. The other good thing is that he's also only averaging 1.7 turnovers, and 3.2 fouls in those games. Let's see games with 28+ MPG, he's had 8 games with 28 or more minutes, and his production: 16.0 points | 8.3 rebounds | 1.3 assists | 0.88 steals | 1.4 blocks | 5.5 FT attempts | 58.5% FG | 31 MPG | 1.5 turnovers | 2.9 fouls Not bad at all </div> Nope, the Knicks don't really go to him all that much. Seeing how effective he was, the Knicks just recently started running plays through him. I don't think his conditioning is a huge concern. That's another thing he can put on his summer work out plan. His numbers are very deceiving, but when he gets his minutes, he produces very well. Kurt Thomas for the most part takes up a lot of his potential minutes but he will more than likely be moved before the start of next season. Those numbers are what he puts up when he gets some good minutes as somewhat of a rookie (he got little burn last year.) I really think with him being able to get more touches, and being more of a focal part of the Knicks offense, along with his great work ethic, becoming a 20/10 player is not out of the question for me.
