<div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James X3:</div><div class="quote_post">Danny Ainge basically was dealing with the same team that went to The Eastern Conference finals, there weren't any major changes to that roster. So the fact remains, until he can get his team back to, or past that point, he hasn't proven to have taken this team to heights any higher than when he aquired it. Anyhow, I love what he's doing and I've always had, he's certainly on the right track...</div> Kenny Anderson, Rodney Rogers, and Erick Strickland were key contributers to the 01-02 team. Anderson was the catalyst of the offense, and his presence made it possible for Tony Delk to come off the bench as a change of pace guard. Delk is more suited for that role. The next year he was forced into the starting PG role, eventually losing the job to J.R. BREMER after an injury sent him to the sidelines for a few games. Rodgers was the all important sixth man. He almost single-handedly led the team to victory on numerous occasions. Rodney was a huge part of that team, which actually had a reliable and somewhat deep bench. Strickland was another one of those bench guys, who may not have had the best stats in the world, but he made up for it with hustle. He racked up "Tommy points" with the best of them. Those three guys might not be the cream of the crop, but they were much better than the likes of Bimbo Coles, Grant Long, Mark Bryant, and J.R. Bremer. All of which were in the rotation the next year.
I accept I freely admit that I was/am an "Ainge-basher," whatever that means. And I am sick of hearing it from everyone who has suddenly fallen in love with this guy. So I accept your invitation. First, let me say what I like about Ainge: 1. I absolutely loved him as a player 2. He nailed this draft. He understood that this was probably the best HS class ever and that the depth of high-ceiling talent was in that pool. Using the later picks on experienced college guys from successful programs who can help a little (and maybe develop into more than role players) immediately was also the right thing to do. 3. He doesn't trash his players. I was repeatedly stunned reading posts and hearing comments from fans about how good Jiri Welsch was. This guy will NOT be in the league in 3 years. Ainge talked him up to the point where he was the next, well, Danny Ainge. Smart. 4. He seems to understand the interplay between basketball business decisions and talent on the floor. Guys like Cuban (see, the Keith Van Horn trade) and Isiah (see, Rose/Taylor trades) don't have to deal with the reality of the NBA the way the rest of the league does. 5. Vin Baker. This trade almost sunk this team for 5 years. Just an absolute slap in the face to a loyal fandom by a sleazy jerkoff on his way out the door. Thanksdad. Ainge did the best he could and did a great job lancing that boil. Ok, that said, Ainge has been a lot luckier than smart. And here is my criticism of Ainge. Raef LaFrentz. The difference b/t Layden and Ainge is the difference b/t LaFrentz and McDyess. Dice was a gamble and he broke down. LaFrentz was a gamble and he has been serviceable. That was a horrible trade. Does anyone think that Raef is going to continue at even his current level for the remainder of his contract? Puh-leaze. I'll give him a break on Blount. But LaFrentz is a max contract guy. Simply put, he is one of the 5 most untradeable contacts in the league. And he gave up a 22/8/5 all-star in his prime with two years left on his deal, threw away the season AFTER season tickets were purchased, and got Raef dumped on him. Ouch. Had Danny waited, he could have gotten FAR more value for 'Toine. Note that I say "value" both in terms of talent and contract. Saying I told you so is weak.
Sorry, but I totally disagree. Let's start with this gem... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Had Danny waited, he could have gotten FAR more value for 'Toine. </div>Of the three times that Antoine has been traded, which team got the most in return? Was it Dallas, who got Jason Terry and Alan Henderson? Was it Atlanta, who recieved Googs, Yogi, and a conditional pick? Or was it Boston, who got LaFrentz, Welsch('07 first rounder), Chris Mills(traded with Mike James for Chucky Atkins, who was later traded with Mihm/Jones for Payton), and a first round pick(Delonte West)? To say that Ainge could have gotten more is just that. It's you saying it. You cannot provide anything but speculation to back up your argument. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But LaFrentz is a max contract guy. Simply put, he is one of the 5 most untradeable contacts in the league.</div>Do you realize how hard it is to get under the cap? Once you're over, you're over. No matter how over you are, it's all the same. We're not under now, and we won't be under unless we're totally out of it halfway through a season. Unless you are the man responsible for paying the salaries, I don't know what the knock of Raef is for. He's an above average Center that just so happens to be overpaid. Is this a rare thing? Because I'm pretty sure that most centers are overpaid, probably because of the lack of talent at the position. Having LaFrentz on the roster is not going to hurt anybody besides the owners. He's a team oriented guy who's going to play hard without causing problems. I judge GMs by the talent that they bring in. As the roster is currently constructed, this is what Danny has given up in deals since he got here: Darius Songaila, Troy Bell, Dahntay Jones, Tony Delk, Eric Williams, Tony Battie, Kedrick Brown, Chris Mills, Mike James, Michael Stewart, Tom Gugliotta, and a 2005 First Rounder. Here's what we got in return: Sacramento's 2005 Second Rounder, Banks, Perk, Delonte, 2007 1st round pick, Raef, Ricky, Conditional 1st Round pick, Tony Allen, and Gary Payton. Seriously, which group of players would you choose?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry, but I totally disagree. Let's start with this gem... Of the three times that Antoine has been traded, which team got the most in return? Was it Dallas, who got Jason Terry and Alan Henderson? Was it Atlanta, who recieved Googs, Yogi, and a conditional pick? Or was it Boston, who got LaFrentz, Welsch('07 first rounder), Chris Mills(traded with Mike James for Chucky Atkins, who was later traded with Mihm/Jones for Payton), and a first round pick(Delonte West)?</div> I have absoultely no desire to get in between you guys on this issue, but Thrilla, I feel the need to point out that while you are applauding Ainge because he was able to turn what he got for Walker into more talent, you should then have the same leeway about Atlanta. Who knows what they will get with the conditional first rounder or the cap space they're going to have this year (sure, history tells us they'll mess it up, but stranger things have happened). Just like now the Walker trade looks great for us, in a year or two it could land the Hawks a great player or two that makes the deal look lopsided in their favor...
Hmmm... You do make an interesting point (that Walker's value has decreased each time he's been traded), but that is just a fact of life in the NBA. Each time a player is traded, his value decreases. And I certainly wouldn't have wanted to end up in a situation like Toronto getting virtually nothing for Vince. I'll have to think about that a bit... However, let's talk cap for a second. The C's will never be under the cap, that is true. And I don't see any point since they will almost certainly never be in the race for any top FA's (a whole separate discussion about my beloved hometown which causes me pain). But they still have, um, what do you call that? Oh yeah, a budget. Raef: 10.0, 10.9, 11.8, & 12.7. That isn't "just overpaid." I understand your point re: upgrading talent. I hope you like this squad though, because this is it. Danny's rationale for breaking up the team was that he had determined that it was destined for mediocrity and that just wasn't good enough. Fine. Unless this team goes to the conference finals, it is a step back. Detroit wasn't getting a lot of press pre-Sheed either, remember? With one trade, they went from "mediocre" playoff team to title contender. Had Danny stuck it out, he could have been in on the fire sales last year at the deadline instead of trashing the season. It was a classic "rookie-GM-I'm-gonna-show-em-who's-in-charge-here" move. Oh, and what did Atlanta get for Sheed? And would you rather have him or Raef along with PP AND Toine? Is that a mediocre team? Seems to me that team could have made a seriously legit run last year, no? Ok, we got an additional pick out of the deal. My friend, there are accepted economics in the NBA. A late-round #1 has a monetary value. That value, while not entirely certain, is far less than the $46 million left on Raef's deal. Danny got fleeced. Raef has already missed one entire season (just with the C's, that is) and though I like his game, 1) this is not a championship caliber team, 2) his game won't matter when he's making $11 mil wearing a suit, and 3) the C's now have THREE max deal guys on their roster and are a 48 win team. Danny is no Chris Mullin, but let's not put this guy in the GM HOF just yet, OK?
Yeah, I haven't nominated him for the HOF yet. My point was that the guy has greatly improved this team talentwise. Nobody's perfect, and maybe he made some mistakes along the way, but the people that were calling for his head less than a year after he joined the C's were totally wrong. The people that booed him at Cedric's jersey retirement were wrong. Dozens of people used to venture into this Celtics forum and trash him. Myself, and others, would always say the same thing: "Give the guy more time, it takes longer than this to rebuild a team." I know what you're saying about Raef, but I am confident that if he ever becomes dead weight, Danny can get rid of him. Worst case scenario, He'll introduce Raef to a bottle of whiskey and Vin Baker. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1) this is not a championship caliber team,</div>Maybe not at this moment, but it's closer than it was when Ainge took over. Even if you could argue that they're EVEN with the team Danny arrived to, at least our talent is young and improving. The old team was old and declining. By the way- I forgot to welcome you. I can tell you know your stuff, and I hope you stick around.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Of the three times that Antoine has been traded, which team got the most in return? Was it Dallas, who got Jason Terry and Alan Henderson? Was it Atlanta, who recieved Googs, Yogi, and a conditional pick? Or was it Boston, who got LaFrentz, Welsch('07 first rounder), Chris Mills(traded with Mike James for Chucky Atkins, who was later traded with Mihm/Jones for Payton), and a first round pick(Delonte West)? </div> I'm neutral on Ainge, but I just joined this conversation to say that Boston got the most value. I'm paraphrasing, but like Antoine Walker said, you lose value once you've been traded. That's true, so it's somewhat obvious that the Celtics get the most value in the first trade, because that's the first trade he was involved in.
I would like to thank my favorite mod for finding all those glorious posts. I AM a big fan of "told you so" and guess what? We told you so. Once again, in Danny I Trust!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 44Thrilla:</div><div class="quote_post">He's back!!! It's amazing how you can take anything that's ever happened and spin it into a negative. Danny did not "admit he was wrong". He simply wanted to compete, and he thought Walker would help do just that. The guy is only signed for the rest of the year, so Ainge gave him a tryout period. If he doesn't want to keep Antoine, then Ainge uses him as bait for anothet player in a sign-and-trade. Not to mention that Toine was our best removable asset, and Ainge needed to deal him for developmental reasons. He also got some great talent in return, and now that Antoine's back it's almost like the deal never happened, and a bunch of young talent just fell into our laps. Admitted he was wrong? Man, you kill me Birdman. Also, you act like that's the only thing he's done to earn the title of "great GM". In case you missed it, he actually NAILED the draft this year, we now have 3 solid players who have more potential than you have negativity. He also played two different GMs like fiddles with the Lakers trade and the Atlanta trade. I dare you to take a look at the salary situations, and compare dead weight contracts. We are in much better shape when it comes to that. In less than 2 years, he has put us in a better situation, both on the basketball and business side. It's called reading comprehension. You should try it out sometime.... BTW- How are those Magic doing? </div> First off, when we had the discussion (at the beginning of the season) the Magic were a better team. You have to admit that I was right on that one. Certainly neither one of us foresaw the decisions to trade Mobley for Christie and to bring Antoine back that made the situation what it now is. As for Ainge and his supposed resurrecting of the franchise he hasn't really done much. He got one great player in last year's draft (Jefferson) and I will certainly commend him for that. The kid's going to be a stud. West and Allen will also be decent role players for a few years, I will never deny that we had a nice draft this season. As for Ainge's vision as a whole I just don't see it. The B.S. about how he had to dismantle the team two years ago because it wasn't a title contender was just that, B.S. The Celtics are no closer to competing for a title now than they were then. They've got a core of Pierce/Jefferson/Davis/West/Allen and possibly Payton for another year or two that isn't going to sniff the Eastern Conference Finals anytime soon. My problem with Ainge was always only twofold, the Walker-LaFrentz deal (you want to talk about dead weight contracts, Raef has one that's positively decomposing) and the bringing in of Ricky Davis (who simply isn't, and never will be, a winner). Here's to bringing back 'Toine next year, the obvious heart and soul of that team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Birdman33:</div><div class="quote_post"> Here's to bringing back 'Toine next year, the obvious heart and soul of that team.</div> I have absolutely no comment on this garbage. It should speak for itself. Love the signature about Ainge redeeming himself. Try gettin' the story straight. And when you do, let me know, because I would like to rearrange it for you a little, since you seem to have no clue what the real story is. I'm apologizing in advance for being rude in this post to you. Obviously I know very little about your take on the C's so far, but what I've heard I've been confused by, so don't take it personally yet.
One more thing, please everyone stop using the phrase playoff contender. It means nothing. Thank you.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ignignot:</div><div class="quote_post">I have absolutely no comment on this garbage. It should speak for itself. Love the signature about Ainge redeeming himself. Try gettin' the story straight. And when you do, let me know, because I would like to rearrange it for you a little, since you seem to have no clue what the real story is. I'm apologizing in advance for being rude in this post to you. Obviously I know very little about your take on the C's so far, but what I've heard I've been confused by, so don't take it personally yet.</div> Enlighten me. That 12 game stretch immediately following the 'Toine trade that pushed Boston into the playoffs must have been some kind of aberration.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Birdman33:</div><div class="quote_post">Enlighten me. That 12 game stretch immediately following the 'Toine trade that pushed Boston into the playoffs must have been some kind of aberration.</div> I was referring to the fact that 'Toine is clearly nowhere near the heart and soul of this team. As of right now, there isn't one, hence the inability to win big games when it comes down to it. For the time being, the heart and soul of this team sure seems to be where it oughtn't, in the hands of a ballhog or two, and at the very best is in the hands of a playoff challenged coach, who has no experience with winning deep into a season. The man's never been on the winning end of a seven game series, and mixes things up a little much when he should be holding the line. Oh well, all things considered, getting rid of 'Toine puts this team on the up and up for two reasons, the first, and most important, is that his departure puts money in the organizations coffers, and lots of it. At over (I was corrected) $12 mil a year (not $14 mil), that's plenty of spending space for someone that could be playing a more significant role, now. Instead of hoping that Antoine - who I should let you all know, I love to watch play, although he frustrates me sometimes - will get his act together and start doing what the teams NEEDS from him and not what he wants to do, why don't we get some flexibility and fill a team need at the front of the court. Nextly, the fact of that 12 game stretch was, we got an impassioned Antoine who played hard every night, and provided a spark that teams had a hard time game-planning for, just like he used to. But then it happened, teams did game plan for him, we started to slide, he got hurt (which I can't get out of my mind, how long will that frame hold up?), we slid some more, and I know we won some biggies in those last two weeks, but we also lost some gimmies, and backed our way into the playoffs. Some say it's not possible to 'back into' the playoffs, that it's a whole new game there, and it is, but momentum and chemistry are no longer deniable as essentials in this league, especially to a team as young as this, and we had neither heading in. Not entirely because of Antoine, but enitrely because this team wasn't ready, and all the while Antoine was as big a question mark as ever. Was he healthy? Was he going to show up like he had earlier in the year? Was he the same gunner he always was? And was he going to turn the ball over consistently like he had all season (effectively ruining the Celtics' youngster's rhythm, and making him expendable in a run and gun offense)? A man of Antoine's size and athleticism (which I give him a lot more credit for than most) is not necessary in a run and hustle offense, and there are faster, longer fours in the league today that could find a suitable home in green. And as long as there's no crappy bench warming center (who shall remain nameless) eating up our mid-level exception, we could land any of those longer, faster fours, and not even touch the 8-figure gap in our salary cap number due to Walker's absense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Birdman33:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, when we had the discussion (at the beginning of the season) the Magic were a better team. You have to admit that I was right on that one. Certainly neither one of us foresaw the decisions to trade Mobley for Christie and to bring Antoine back that made the situation what it now is. As for Ainge and his supposed resurrecting of the franchise he hasn't really done much. He got one great player in last year's draft (Jefferson) and I will certainly commend him for that. The kid's going to be a stud. West and Allen will also be decent role players for a few years, I will never deny that we had a nice draft this season. As for Ainge's vision as a whole I just don't see it. The B.S. about how he had to dismantle the team two years ago because it wasn't a title contender was just that, B.S. The Celtics are no closer to competing for a title now than they were then. They've got a core of Pierce/Jefferson/Davis/West/Allen and possibly Payton for another year or two that isn't going to sniff the Eastern Conference Finals anytime soon. My problem with Ainge was always only twofold, the Walker-LaFrentz deal (you want to talk about dead weight contracts, Raef has one that's positively decomposing) and the bringing in of Ricky Davis (who simply isn't, and never will be, a winner). Here's to bringing back 'Toine next year, the obvious heart and soul of that team.</div> And now for the rest of this spiel. The Magic weren't that good at the beginning of the season, and say what you will about their roster, the Celtics still continually blew them out in head to head matchups, proving to me what the paper won't tell you, that they weren't that good and didn't match up well with a team that was nowhere near hitting its stride. Ainge has done much, and is continuing to. He's moved the emphasis of this club. The emphasis is no longer on half-court, slow it down, get it to Pierce offense, and is now about running. And if you've got the horses, use them, and thanks to that draft, we do have the horses. And guess what role those two role players play best? Runners. Weird how that works out when you think about it. Almost like Danny knew what he was doing. And why does he know? Because he played on the team he's trying to make, he played on it twenty years ago. And he played on it well, and now he's trying to make it again. And it wasn't BS, that team had no upward mobility whatsoever, and the core he has now is not classifiable by player, it is classifiable by age, where you say Davis/Jefferson/Walker/Pierce/whateverthehellelseyousaid, I say early-to-mid twenties...and fast. This team has a lot of talent with a lot of room to grow, the idea for this year and the next too, is about potential. This core isn't meant to sniff the Eastern Conference finals until it is ready, and in one or two years, it will be. Oh yeah, and GP was only here for Banks' sake. Why do you think Ainge included that clause about Payton not showing up? Almost like he knew what he was doing. And finally, Ricky will be a winner, because he'll be pushing this squad up and down that floor on the second unit in another two years, and Raef is a key cog in this team, and if you demand it, I will explain to you why, but otherwise, I'd like to wrap this up. And if you need any more reason to like Danny Ainge, let's not forget that we can thank him for getting Rick Fox out of the league, thanks Danny! Said it before, I'll say it again now, In Danny I Trust!
If you need anyone to elaborate further BirdMan ask Thrilla or myself, and we will help you out. I'm really not trying to be a jerk about all this, it just seems like you tuned in at the trade deadline or something and weren't paying attention when the playoffs happened. Like that twelve game stretch was the only basketball you watched. There's been a lot more going on, and there still is a lot more going to happen. It just seems some of the finer details have been lost.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Birdman33:</div><div class="quote_post">Enlighten me. That 12 game stretch immediately following the 'Toine trade that pushed Boston into the playoffs must have been some kind of aberration.</div>If that's all you got for ammo, I'd be heading to the gun shop if I were you. If anything, that 12 game stretch works against him. Antoine proved that he can be 'good for the team' if he was only a part of the offense and didn't try to control it himself. He came in clueless and just played ball. They were sucessful because he gave the team an extra boost while not taking anything away from the motion offense. That's before he became comfortable and reverted back to the old 'Toine. The one that thinks he's a point guard, takes countless ill advised shots, and commits costly TOs. I thought that 3-on-1 in the playoffs was him in an essence, trying to do it himself instead of dishing off to a more than capable teammate, only to totally miss and look like a jackass. Walker's so bad that in his short time with the C's, he managed to have more 20+ FGA games than Pierce did all season. Just take a look at games 6 & 7, he took over 40 shots and only had 2 assists. And that's in a ball movement offense.
I don't think Antoine Walker is the answer to all of the Celtics' problems. I don't think that he's a max-contract player. I don't like the way he plays when he's gunning and trying to take over the offense either, but I do think that as a team's third best player (which I think he will soon be on this team) with a coach that can explain his role and hold him to it (you know, if a coach doesn't like what a guy's doing, especially one that has been traded three times in the past season and a half, he can sit him down) that he's more than capable for around 8-9 million a year. Walker lightens the load on Pierce and brings a passion to the floor that nobody else on the team does. Plus, he's able to take the criticism that guys like you two have to heap on somebody when things aren't going right and play through it. That's invaluable in the NBA or in any league. That's why I like Antoine Walker. He's not into examining himself and the ramifications of everything he does all the time to see how it makes him look to others. He's not a *****. That may translate into ill-advised decisions at times (sometimes many times) but I'd rather have a guy like that than some talented candy-ass prima donna like Vince Carter. As for Antoine's athleticism I'd say it's non-existent (he may have the worst vertical amongst players under 7-feet in the league) and his lateral quickness is awful too, but, when people are actually MOVING in that offense that's supposedly based on player movement, he's one of the smartest players in the league. I like him. As for Raef, yeah, he's vital to the team but only because Ainge signed Mark Blount to a ridiculous deal, and not 10 million a year vital.
