Jermaine is an idiot. I understood what Jermaine said as far as arguement goes and he makes a good points, but for him to mention about race is lame and idiotic. I am sure Stern would be okay with young kids playing, but the NBA does not have minor leagues the way MLB and NHL has which is something Jermaine and folks who are for guys to play the NBA at the age of 18. Maybe what the NBA needs to do is create minor leagues. Do I still believe in age limit? Yes. I am okay with them playing at 20. I just don't think they are going to learn staying in the bench at 18 years old not to mention the players giving them a cold shoulder.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">But if this was a matter of racism in America, shouldn't we confine the discussion to black Americans versus white Americans who get drafted? I don't think it makes sense to lump in foreign players who may happen to be white into the equation. Americans who are racist typically aren't concerned so much with the welfare of foreigners, as they are with the welfare of white Americans vs. black Americans. There's usually a pretty strong correlation between racism and xenophobia (fear/dislike of foreigners).</div> Racism isn't that specific. If you're racist against black people, you aren't gonna break them down into what country they're from. White europeon kids are getting ruled out as well, but no one seems to be crying for them. Like I've mentioned, guys like DeSegana Diop (from Senegal) is a posterchild for kids not being ready, and he's not getting a pass because he's not from this country.
Wow.. people discussing basketball that don't type like letters from SLAM magazine. I've been looking for this forum all my internet life I think Jermaine's comments were stupid. This has nothing to do with racism. Its another case of "Uncle Stern knows best". The league is majority black. Age limits are not going to change that ratio. David Stern is not racist he is just annoying. The problem is not young people being allowed in the NBA its owners getting draft happy and picking duds high in the draft. No one is forcing these owners to pick the Kwame Brown's and Darko Milicic's. They all buy into the hype right before the draft and pick these clowns that are scoring 15 ppg in highschool. Stern feels that the only way to curb owners mismangement of funds and poor talent scouts is put an age restriction on the draft. Leave the kids alone. If people are dumb enough to throw millions because of their "potential" then let the kids make some money.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">But if this was a matter of racism in America, shouldn't we confine the discussion to black Americans versus white Americans who get drafted? I don't think it makes sense to lump in foreign players who may happen to be white into the equation. Americans who are racist typically aren't concerned so much with the welfare of foreigners, as they are with the welfare of white Americans vs. black Americans. There's usually a pretty strong correlation between racism and xenophobia (fear/dislike of foreigners).</div> Let's narrow it down to only American athletes then. Jermaine O'neal is speculating the rule change will hurt African Americans basketball prospects by making the age limit 20. By hurting African Americans then the age limit is helping white american basketball prospects. So then doesn't this mean a white athlete can speculate the NBA is racist against them because the current age limit of 18 is hurting the chances of white athletes coming out of high school into the pros?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's narrow it down to only American athletes then. Jermaine O'neal is speculating the rule change will hurt African Americans basketball prospects by making the age limit 20. By hurting African Americans then the age limit is helping white american basketball prospects. So then doesn't this mean a white athlete can speculate the NBA is racist against them because the current age limit of 18 is hurting the chances of white athletes coming out of high school into the pros?</div> I don't see how the age limit is helping white americans by hurting black americans. I was only looking at who'd be getting affected by the rule. If we consider young american kids that would be impacted by the rule, they would be overwhelmingly black wouldn't they? I don't have a great memory and I don't pay that much attention to the draft, but I honestly can't think of too many white kids under 20 who were drafted in the first round (again, not considering foreign born players). And I'm not sure in what way the current rules are negatively impacting white kids. I was reading an article on ESPN, and they explicitly mention the question Jermaine O'neal was responding to. I think it's worth taking a loot at: "Is it because you guys are black that the league is trying to put an age limit on the draft?" So, it was the reporter who laid down the bait. Now everyone wants to criticize Jermaine for honestly answering the question with "Yeah, I kinda do think race is part of it" or whatever he said. He didn't initiate the race debate. He gave his input on it. And yet he becomes the idiot and the fool for daring to voice his opinion without having a myriad of statistical details planned out in his head to support it. As I've said, I really don't think that's fair.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see how the age limit is helping white americans by hurting black americans. I was only looking at who'd be getting affected by the rule. If we consider young american kids that would be impacted by the rule, they would be overwhelmingly black wouldn't they? I don't have a great memory and I don't pay that much attention to the draft, but I honestly can't think of too many white kids under 20 who were drafted in the first round (again, not considering foreign born players). And I'm not sure in what way the current rules are negatively impacting white kids.</div> Exactly! It's not helping or hurting either race, which is why I think JO made an ignorant statement. The only color involved in this rule change is the color of money, <font color="Green">GREEN</font>. If you read those two links I posted earlier on you'll see exactly who benefits economically from this rule change. It's the owners and the NBA veterans hands down. The owners have 1 less extension they have to pay for and the careers of veteran players gets extended a year or two more. With less projects taking up roster spots it allows more space for veteran players. Stern and the owners are pushing the age limit to make more money and the NBPA is coming around to support the age limit because it protects their veterans.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I was reading an article on ESPN, and they explicitly mention the question Jermaine O'neal was responding to. I think it's worth taking a loot at: "Is it because you guys are black that the league is trying to put an age limit on the draft?" So, it was the reporter who laid down the bait. Now everyone wants to criticize Jermaine for honestly answering the question with "Yeah, I kinda do think race is part of it" or whatever he said. He didn't initiate the race debate. He gave his input on it. And yet he becomes the idiot and the fool for daring to voice his opinion without having a myriad of statistical details planned out in his head to support it. As I've said, I really don't think that's fair.</div> Fair enough, but O'neal could have clarified his response or retracted it the same day or the next day. He could have said, my response has been taken out of context and the reporter is the person who initiated the race issue. So my initial response was blah blah blah. He has yet to do it, so it's not unfair to criticize him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly! It's not helping or hurting either race, which is why I think JO made an ignorant statement. The only color involved in this rule change is the color of money, <font color="Green">GREEN</font>. If you read those two links I posted earlier on you'll see exactly who benefits economically from this rule change. It's the owners and the NBA veterans hands down. The owners have 1 less extension they have to pay for and the careers of veteran players gets extended a year or two more. With less projects taking up roster spots it allows more space for veteran players. Stern and the owners are pushing the age limit to make more money and the NBPA is coming around to support the age limit because it protects their veterans.</div> When you get into the details of it, maybe race ultimately has nothing to do with the League's push (as opposed to those outside the league) for the age limit. Of course this is only considering intent, and not effect (which I'd argue dispropotionately effect black kids). But Jermaine's comments were not: "Look, the reason the League is doing this is race-related. They're racist." That's how everyone is spinning it, but that's not what he said. He said that as a black person, he "kind of" think that race is the reason. Then he continues with questions. That isn't making a clear, positive statement. That's posing a question to the effect: "As a black man, this is how it looks like to me. I can't understand why else they would do this." To say he's a fool for responding in that fashion simply isn't fair. Now it becomes "ignorant" and "stupid" to even question if racism is part of a decision. Personally, I think that's pretty scary.
Scary is throwing out the idea race is involved and not being able to articulate yourself properly. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"As a black man, this is how it looks like to me. <u>I can't understand why else they would do this.</u>" </div> Not being able to understand spells out ignorance to me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Fair enough, but O'neal could have clarified his response or retracted it the same day or the next day. He could have said, my response has been taken out of context and the reporter is the person who initiated the race issue. So my initial response was blah blah blah. He has yet to do it, so it's not unfair to criticize him.</div> I think he has clarified his intent -- that young black kids who are ready to go straight to the pros will be hurt by this ruling. He also has said that he doesn't think the league is racist (nor did he ever say that, despite the way the media has spinned it). I'm not sure what else he has to clarify. He never really said all that much to begin with. Here's Scoop Jackson's take from Page 2: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...on/050414&num=0
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">Scary is throwing out the idea race is involved and not being able to articulate yourself properly.</div> So inarticulate people should just shut up when it comes to discussing race? Sorry, but I can't agree with that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not being able to understand spells out ignorance to me.</div> We're all ignorant to some degree, then. I don't understand everything when it comes to the inner workings of the league and the way race plays into that, and I'm sure you'd say the same. When it comes to discussing race, everyone has something to learn and it doesn't help matters any to call people stupid or ignorant. There are plenty of intelligent people on this board, and it looks like the salary cap issue with veterans didn't come immediately to most of them (since no one posted about it, other than article you linked to). Does that mean we're all just as "ignorant" as Jermaine O'neal?
All Jermaine's comments did was more stereotyping of black people assuming "the Man" is against them. Stern misguided as he may be is trying to protect those young kids that get psyched by agents only to end up flat on their faces. When they interviewed him on NBA nation he should have just said, "On the surface thats what I thought but after giving it more thought I see where they are coming from but I don't agree with the policy." End of story. He is usually well spoken in his interviews. I'm suprised this came out of his mouth. This is more Rasheed Wallace type talk.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">So inarticulate people should just shut up when it comes to discussing race? Sorry, but I can't agree with that. </div> You are putting words in my mouth and spinning my words just like the media did with JO's. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> We're all ignorant to some degree, then. I don't understand everything when it comes to the inner workings of the league and the way race plays into that, and I'm sure you'd say the same. When it comes to discussing race, everyone has something to learn and it doesn't help matters any to call people stupid or ignorant. There are plenty of intelligent people on this board, and it looks like the salary cap issue with veterans didn't come immediately to most of them (since no one posted about it, other than article you linked to). Does that mean we're all just as "ignorant" as Jermaine O'neal?</div> Yes we are all ignorant to some degree. So why is it offensive to call JO's statements ignorant, when in fact they are? Being ignorant is being unaware or uninformed, being stupid is being slow to learn or understand. There's a difference, and I consider his comment ignorant because he's uninformed. Thanks for the link to Scoop Jackson's article. It's a great take on the situation. He is defending JO for simply asking a question. I have no problem with JO asking the question, but Scoop needs to realize people who answer his question or criticize it have the same right. JO wants to know "Why?" Why the age limit change? Why now? If it isn't broke Why fix it? I also want to know "Why?" Why does JO feel race could be an issue?
I think at times we're getting away from the main point, awkwardly seguing into tangents more focused on ripping apart minor details in each others arguments. JO's intelligence or ignorance isn't the question here. Even if he's not exactly the most enlightened person, (an assumption none of us are really qualified to make) that doesn't give anybody free reign to immediately dismiss whatever he has to say as uneducated trife. As far as The League itself, i'm sure nobody was sitting up in their Madison Avenue office thinking, "we definitely need to do something about all of these uneducated, young, black millionaires...they're killing our image" but to suggest that David Stern, Billy Hunter, and the rest of their ink haven't even considered how racial animus influences some of the leagues general perception is beyond naive. One more thing... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All Jermaine's comments did was more stereotyping of black people assuming "the Man" is against them.</div> This was tongue-in-cheek, right?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nomad:</div><div class="quote_post"> As far as The League itself, i'm sure nobody was sitting up in their Madison Avenue office thinking, "we definitely need to do something about all of these uneducated, young, black millionaires...they're killing our image" but to suggest that David Stern, Billy Hunter, and the rest of their ink haven't even considered how racial animus influences some of the leagues general perception is beyond naive. </div> Just to play Devil's Advocate. Let's say the topic of race came up. Couldn't the conversation have also went like this. "We are happy young, black millionaires are turning out to be successful in the league. They are by far the most popular players in the league already and our sponsors love using them to endorse their products....however, for every LeBron James, we need to do something to protect the DeAngelo Collins out there. These players are being told the wrong things and it's giving the NBA a bad image because we aren't being proactive and responsible enough to help misguided, young, black athletes who aren't ready physically, but more importantly, mentally for the demands of the NBA."
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">we need to do something to protect the DeAngelo Collins out there. These players are being told the wrong things and it's giving the NBA a bad image because we aren't being proactive and responsible enough to help misguided, young, black athletes who aren't ready physically, but more importantly, mentally for the demands of the NBA</div> Honestly, and maybe I'm being overly cynical, but good is as good does. People like Collins (unathletic 6-9 five man with zero upside, think Chris Massie or even a shorter Jarron Collins) Leon Smith (crazier than Mariah Carey), Korleone Young (6-5 athletic 4 man with no perimeter skills, think Byron Houston or a shorter, less skilled Craig Smith) Lenny Cooke (a more explosive Julius Hodge, with the same receeding hairline but without the savvy or heart) etc could have been in college for 10 years and I don't think it would have made any difference. They still would have sucked as NBA players. The majority of the high school to pros people that failed had huge flaws in their games, flaws that 2 years of college wouldn't have rectified. I think David Stern could care less about some 18 year old 6-5 power forward thats been told by his girlfriend's stepfather that he could play in The League. The age limit is being proposed for two reasons: Marketing (creating a buzz for future NBA stars while they're in college, giving fans a connection they don't have with mainly unknown high school stars) and keeping NBA veteran's jobs. The elephant in the room aspect of it relates to the marketing, and many fans feeling a widening disconnect between themselves and the players they're paying to see.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nomad:</div><div class="quote_post">Honestly, and maybe I'm being overly cynical, but good is as good does. People like Collins (unathletic 6-9 five man with zero upside, think Chris Massie or even a shorter Jarron Collins) Leon Smith (crazier than Mariah Carey), Korleone Young (6-5 athletic 4 man with no perimeter skills, think Byron Houston or a shorter, less skilled Craig Smith) Lenny Cooke (a more explosive Julius Hodge, with the same receeding hairline but without the savvy or heart) etc could have been in college for 10 years and I don't think it would have made any difference. They still would have sucked as NBA players. The majority of the high school to pros people that failed had huge flaws in their games, flaws that 2 years of college wouldn't have rectified. I think David Stern could care less about some 18 year old 6-5 power forward thats been told by his girlfriend's stepfather that he could play in The League.</div> This is why I'm also opposed to the age limit. Having these players go to college or wait another 2 years does not guarantee they would improve enough to be NBA players. The motive behind the age limit has nothing to do with protecting players, and everything to do with money. If the league genuinely wanted to help develop players they would create a minor league system similar to MLB. I don't think the NBA will be able to pass this ruling anyways. They tried it a few years ago, but it overruled by the Supreme Court, I think the player who challenged it was Spencer Haywood of the Sonics in 1971. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The age limit is being proposed for two reasons: Marketing (creating a buzz for future NBA stars while they're in college, giving fans a connection they don't have with mainly unknown high school stars) and keeping NBA veteran's jobs. The elephant in the room aspect of it relates to the marketing, and many fans feeling a widening disconnect between themselves and the players they're paying to see.</div> I keep reading this widening disconnect, but the numbers show differently. NBA popularity is at an all time high, revenue is at an all time high, 5 out of the top 7 jerseys sold are from players who entered the NBA under the age of 20, and the biggest sponsors in the NBA are using the younger players to market their products. You see LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony in nationwide commercials than you do a 4 year player and NBA champion like Tim Duncan. There was a segment on ESPN today and they asked Charles Barkley what he thought about JO's comments. Prior to being asked this question Charles Barkley was plugging his new book, "Who's Afraid of the Big Black Man?" and said his goal for the remainder of his life is to get rid of racism in America. That being said, he disagreed with JO, because he doesn't think race has anything to do with this decision. He likes the idea of an age limit, but doesn't like money motives behind it. He said he likes the idea, because drafting these young players to develop is ruining the original purpose of the NBA Draft. The NBA Draft was instituted to help the weaker teams get better right away. The NBA Draft was meant for the losing teams to draft a player who was ready to help them immediately, not to have to wait for 3 or 4 years and then figure out if this player is really ready for the NBA or not. I don't always agree with what Chuck has to say, but he did a great job of putting my thoughts on the NBA Draft Limit and JOs comments into a nice 1 minute summary.
Good article on the subject...<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Serbians, Germans, Spaniards, Australians, Argentineans, Nigerians, Chinese, and every other nationality will be hurt by this age limit. If the NBA sets up an age barrier, it might act as a deterrent for many overseas phenoms. Many of these prospects might get roped into inking long-term deals for powerhouse European teams with high buyout clauses, hindering their ability to showcase their skills in the Association. An age limit wouldn't completely stop the influx of international talent, but it would slow it down. David Stern, the #1 advocate of overseas expansion for the NBA (a completely unfeasible idea, but that's another issue for another time), must find this somewhat troubling. Stern sees the NBA as a Global League. He must know that an age limit would hurt the NBA's marketability in many parts of the world. International fans love tracking the progress of their beloved national heroes. The success of many international players has helped push basketball to the top of the sports food chain in many different countries. But many future prospects with NBA aspirations would fall under that 20-year-old barrier. At the same time, Stern also feels that this initiative is necessary to help the league's image and improve the quality of play. With the NFL's recent legal victory to uphold their 20-and-under age barrier, Stern has some added firepower going into this summer's collective bargaining sessions. He must decide if this slight drawback in global popularity is worth it.</div> http://www.nbadraft.net/prevenas024.asp
Everything comes back to NBA general managers being able to assess talent. If NBA GM's would do a better job of evaluating talent then we wouldn't be having this discussion. High school athletes wouldn't be declaring for the draft at the rate that they are if teams weren't drafting them high. If you have the opportunity to draft LeBron James you have to take it. We wouldn't be having this discussion if all of the high school players drafted high were contributing. The problem lies when teams start drafting high school kids just to stay ahead of the curve. No way in the world players like Kwame Brown, James Perkins, Robert Swift, Dorrell Wright, Travis Outlaw, and Ndubi Ebi should have been drafted as high as they were. An NBA GM should be able to assess what type of immediate impact that these players will have. If they don't they run the risk of getting a minimal contribution from them and losing them when they become free agents four years down the road. If NBA GM's were more selective in the high school and European draft choices that they select then less high school players would declare for the draft. If they continue to draft high schoolers and young Europeans b/c they played well in an All-Star or b/c they looked good in an individual workout then you are going to get what you get now--marginal players believing that they can excel at the NBA level. It's time for these general managers to start earning their paycheck.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">Everything comes back to NBA general managers being able to asses talent</div> Exactly. That is why I don't approve of the argument that young kids are taking roster spots away from deserving veterans. The GM's are supposed to know what's best, and if not they should lose their job. An age limit undermines the authority of the GM. Take Detroit for example. If they hadn't drafted Darko, Dumars would have been forced to a). draft some other guy just finishing a successful college run (lets say--Melo) or . draft a player and then trade him for a vet. Either way, it ruins the Piston's chemistry, because Larry Brown has to listen to a vet complain about minutes or some kid who was a leader in college complain about minutes. After the Olympics we all know that Melo and Brown don't mix. I'm not saying that this alone is reason not to impose an age limit, but it's an example of how it was beneficial for the team that drafted a young player. Also, we are all aware of Dumars' prowess and tact as a GM. Imposing an age limit would have forced a brilliant man to choose differently with a potentially different outcome.
