Wade is defiantely on the same level as Lebron <u>right now</u>, and I hope this playoff series helped to shot down those that seemed to think Shaq "made" Wade good. Shaq helps Wade, but he certainly did not make him a good player. About the passing comparison, Lebron is a better passer, he's taller, has better vision, and is a more efficient and skilled passer. Lebron averaged over 8 assits for 3-4 months this past season. Wade is a much better defender than Lebron, that's where he really matches up to him. Lebron is just as good a scorer, a better rebounder [more of a height related one, but still], shooter, passer, and they're both good leaders. Future wise, I'd take Lebron as most would, he has the willingness to improve his defense, he's got all the skills, and in addition to that has the body and the athleticism added on. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade still has a lot of areas to improve on. Think about it: Inconsistant Jumpshot (LeBron's is better) No 3pt Game (Amazing he doesn't score any points from the 3) Turnovers (Far too many) Decision Making (LeBron's is better) Playmaking (LeBron's is better) Upper Body Strength (LeBron can overpower his defender)</div> I'm a little puzzled at this one, for his position and his body, Wade is a very strong player. He's 6'5 about 215-220 lbs, and has noticably good upper body strength. I also agree wholeheartedly with the turnovers. Wade is always on attack mode, but it also gets him into trouble many times in that he'll drive with nowhere to go, or commit offensive fouls. Wade is averaging 9.0 assists in the playoffs, but a massive 5.57 turnovers a game. That's not even a 2-1 ratio, that's definately not effective ball handling. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People who're claiming LeBron is ahead of Wade are kidding themselves. He's the ONLY player in history to average 25 8 8 in 2 consecutive Playoffs series , that's big.</div> I'm a little confused here, Wade hasn't averaged 8 rebounds in either of the series. He averaged 6.3 vs New Jersey, and 7.0 RPG vs the Wizards.
^ Wade is guarded by SGs sometimes even SFs, but rarely by PGs. He can overpower your average PG but he doesn't have the upperbody strength to overpower your average SG. LeBron can overpower your average SF and even some PFs; PGs and SGs go without saying.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Heat4Life:</div><div class="quote_post">What about Illgauskus? Also Darius Miles/Jeff McInnis? LeBron's had the supporting cast to get the playoffs for both seasons. And how come Kobe didn't make the playoffs with Odom and Butler?</div> Ilgauskas isn't going to push a team to the playoffs. He is overrated, as a matter of fact and he is always out with injury, thats not very helpful. Darius Miles and Jeff McInnis? They both seem to be a cancer from what I've heard Cleveland fans say and they are both role players. Kobe didn't make the playoffs with Odom and Butler for several reasons. Odom isn't good enough to be as effective at PF in the west as he was in the east due to the quality of PFs in the west. Odom was also injured this season. Kobe is a ballhog. The Lakers' competition is harder because they play in the west. They weren't totally out of the playoffs until Rudy T left. Theres probably more but thats off the top of my head.
Wade is good but he is not on the same level that Lebron is. As it has been noted in previous posts Lebron just has more intangibles that work to his advantage. I think the way he is playing in the playoffs is leading many people to think that way. I would wait to see how Lebron plays in the post season to make any sort of comparison between him and Wade. I hate to bring this up but Wade has a lot of good things going for him in Miami such as: Great coaching, Shaq and players to pass to. Lebron is surrounded by marginal talent at best yet he was still averaging 27 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 7.2 ast. You can do this comparison too: What if Lebron played on Miami? Would he win as much if not more games with Shaq then Wade did? Would he have won the past two games against the Wizards without Shaq? I would think he would win while putting up ridiculous numbers doing it. Keep in mind that Washington and New Jersey are horrible defensive teams and Wade has had his way with them as he should. A true test will be how he does against the better defensive teams like the Detroits and the San Antonio's. I am not discounting Wade's talent whatsoever but I do think that people are being a little overzealous when saying that Wade is at or above Lebrons level. He is just a shade lower.
Run JBM: You got an excuse for everything. You can say Wade had Odom & Butler but apparently Odom & Butler weren't enough for Kobe & the Lakers. You can say Wade reached the playoffs because of a better supporting cast (which he didn't) and discredit Darius Miles/Jeff McInnis & Big Z. Besides the fact that they're good enough players to reach the playoffs, it's the friggin Eastern Conference. You don't need many wins to reach the playoffs. There's no debating with you because you set double standards for Wade and make excuses for LeBron. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Wade is good but he is not on the same level that Lebron is. As it has been noted in previous posts Lebron just has more intangibles that work to his advantage. I think the way he is playing in the playoffs is leading many people to think that way. I would wait to see how Lebron plays in the post season to make any sort of comparison between him and Wade. </div>I agree, LeBron shouldn't be compared to Wade because he can't even reach the playoffs. Some "great" player he is.
^I actually think those are very valid points he made. You basically hit the nail on the head by saying that Odom and Butler are just not enough for the Lakers to make it in the Western conference. If memory serves me right the Heat were a 7-8th seed with Odom and Butler...in the Eastern conference. Bring them to the West and try to play Odom at the 4 and you are headed for trouble. And no, Darius Miles, Jeff McInnis and Big Z are not a good supporting cast. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree, LeBron shouldn't be compared to Wade because he can't even reach the playoffs. Some "great" player he is.</div>I think you are forgetting a lot of reasons as to why he did not make the playoffs. First of all, the Cavs get sold midway into the season, then their starting point guard stays on the bench for the remainder of the 2nd half of the season due to no reason at all. Then his head coach gets fired. AND he won the last game of the season and lost the tie breaker to New Jersey. That is pretty close to being in the post season. Wade has been blessed with great teammates, great coaching and a great ownership situation. If you do remember (although it may be past your time), Michael Jordan's teams never made it to the post season until his 3rd season in the league.. Not to make any sort of comparisons BUT if you are telling me that he is not great due to the fact that he can't lead his team to the playoffs in HIS 2ND SEASON in the league then you really need to get your mind right.
Just a note: the Heat were a 4th seed. Odom & Butler may not be enough but when you have a player like Kobe then shouldn't they be enough...right? I think this debate was over when the double standards were set for Wade: Wade can make the playoffs because he has Butler & Odom but not Kobe. And not LeBron with Boozer/Gooden, Big Z, and Miles/McInnis in the East. That's all that needs to be said about Wade vs LeBron. Plus Wade is famous for his playoff performance, not just because of the numbers, because his numbers translate to success unlike other players' (VC and Iverson for example) and because he's delivered clutch performances.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Heat4Life:</div><div class="quote_post">Just a note: the Heat were a 4th seed. Odom & Butler may not be enough but when you have a player like Kobe then shouldn't they be enough...right?</div>You do realize that they play in the Western conference? You need some sort of inside presence to make any sort of impact in that conference. I'm sorry but Odom nor Butler come close to being any sort of inside presence. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think this debate was over when the double standards were set for Wade: Wade can make the playoffs because he has Butler & Odom but not Kobe and not LeBron with Boozer/Gooden, Big Z, and Miles/McInnis. Which player holds the edge? Dwyane Wade </div>How so? Just because he made the playoffs? Am I mistaken or did Lebron not win the Rookie of the year award last year? Even if you are the biggest Wade fan I don't think your opinion can contend with that little fact. Regardless of what you think, Lebron was still the best rookie last year and was probably the best 2nd year player this year regardless of whether he made the playoffs or not. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> because his numbers translate to success unlike other players' (VC and Iverson for example) and because he's delivered clutch performances </div>Are you joking me? I even saw that you edited out T-Macs name in there before I got a chance to respond too. If you are telling me that these players (T-Mac and Iverson) didn't raise their games to another level....I just have nothing to say to that. And another thing: Iverson played the defending champs in Detroit and T-Mac played Dallas. Hardly the 2nd tier teams that Miami has faced in New Jersey and Washington.
First off, I can name atleast 5 players better than Bron...TD/Garnett/Shaq/McGrady and Kobe...LeBron has only showed me that he can post amazing numbers...yes, you can argue that his team was a lot less talented than Wade's Miami squad, and it was...yet u cant say it DIDNT have talent...Ilgauskas/Gooden/McInnis and Snow are all very good players...even throw in Tractor Traylor (who had a nice year), Varejo (sp) and Harris off the bench, and thats a nice squad...I'd say it was just as nice as Wade's Miami squad last season, when he made the playoffs as a rookie...The fact is that, TALENT-wise, I'd say LeBron has a slightly upper hand...I'd say Bron is the better passer, better scorer, and I also think he's more capable of becoming a dominant player than Wade is...I think Wade will always be a 24-26 ppg guy, but he'll need that one other great player (such as Shaq in this case) to take away a lot of attention...Bron has shown that he can handle being the main guy, but now he's just gotta win, and Cleveland's gotta put a better supporting cast around him...It also doesnt hurt Wade that Pat Riley is smarter than any man in cavs management... bottom line is, you cant go wrong with either...both will end up having won rings when their career is said and done...both will post mindnumbing stats...I may be ahead of myself, but I believe that the 2000s Bron and Wade will be to basketball what the 1980s Bird and Magic were...
For Wade to be as Good as Lebron he'd have to be a better shooter,passer and be more versatile.Nope,Lebron is better.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Heat4Life:</div><div class="quote_post">What about Illgauskus? Also Darius Miles/Jeff McInnis? LeBron's had the supporting cast to get the playoffs for both seasons. And how come Kobe didn't make the playoffs with Odom and Butler?</div> I'd hardly consider Darius Miles and Jeff McInnis to be a supporting cast...Ilgauskas is good, but not great by any means...Wade and James are close but I think LeBron is a little bit better...That kid is amazing...
Why is everybody making McInnis out to be a great player? By the end of the year he wasn't even in our rotation. He was a cancer that only cared about himself. He was one of the worst defenders in the league. Opposing pg's always had career games against Jeff. He as kind of our MVP in the 03-04 season, but in 04-05 he was just dreadful.
All this talk about Wade having a much better support cast than LeBron.. I don't buy. The talent difference between those supporting casts are seriously not very big. They're pretty close to each other. It's the friggin East man, if you're good, you should be able to make it to the playoffs. However, I'm not going to knock on LeBron for missing the playoffs this year. He had a pretty rough season. Someone mentioned that LeBron is more polished than Wade. Wrong. Dead wrong. Wade is the more polished and more experienced player. But LeBron has better potential. LeBron is NOT the better all-around player. Wade is. LeBron is the better all-around OFFENSIVE player. But overall, Wade is more the complete player. BronBron can score and pass slightly better, but Flash can defend a heckuva better. LeBron is more athletic, but Wade is the tougher person mentally. He is more intense and has more will than LeBron imo. Now, after all is said and done, these players are both equally as good in my mind. They are just put in different situations and it would be great if these 2 can develop into another great NBA rivalry a la Larry Bird / Magic. PS: To whoever said that LeBron is the best player in the NBA, pretty funny joke. That might be true in 3-5 years, but not now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rockets_1:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron the best player in the league? How can you be the best player in the league and not have made the playoffs? Wade has made the playoffs in both of his first two seasons where as LeBron has not.</div> All right. Let's use this argument. So you are only a good player if your team makes the Playoffs? How about Kevin Garnett, is he now a worse player because Minnesota didn't make the Playoffs? Does it make Kobe Bryant a worse player? How about Baron Davis, Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury? Like Shaddy said, this is still a team game! Garnett and Bryant are probably in almost everyone's top five of best players in the League, Playoffs or not. And at least top ten. I'm not saying James is that much better than Wade, but if you are going to put Wade ahead, don't use the "LeBron hasn't made the Playoffs" junk.
Well they both are great players and as much as I love my main man D-Wade, I would take Lebron to build my franchise around if I had one. Who's better than who? I take Wade right now cuz he's playing like he's possesed right now. Bottom line I think Wade is better player in terms of "playing TEAM basketball and WIN games" but LeBron is better in terms of "attack attack attack type of basketball" Lebron might be the only one who can talk big to his coach "ima get you 30-10-10 tonight" and back it up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The talent difference between those supporting casts are seriously not very big. They're pretty close to each other.</div>Shaq.Just watch the two players w/o bias and everyone will realize that as great as Wade is Lebron is no doubt better.Lebron is one of the best passers in the league.As many commentators have said,so many times that its almost cliche,Lebron can dominate the game w/o dominating the ball.The only thing I think you can give Wade over Lebron right now is the fact that Wade has come through in more clutch situations so far,more game winners.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">BronBron can score and pass slightly better, but Flash can defend a heckuva better. LeBron is more athletic, but Wade is the tougher person mentally. He is more intense and has more will than LeBron imo.</div> I totally agree, that is what I love about Wade most! Wade plays better more intense defense, seems to have a lot of energy and gives it his all. He also seems to get along with teammates well. Lebron is a more valuable player physically. However mentally Wade is more valuable, he seems to have more determination and passion for the game. He plays hard in every aspect to make his team better. I honestly think that if Wade was with Cleveland for the past 2 years that they would have made playoffs. Lets look at the 2003-2004 Cavs... Ilgauskaus, 2nd best in the east (2003-2004 season) Boozer was a top 5 PF in the East with 15.5 ppg and 11.4 rpg shooting at .523% FG and was a brutal defender and a banger offensively. McInnis was playing great, 12ppg 7.5 apg 1 spg 1.9 TOpg Lebron at SG Eric Williams at SF Bench guys Lee Nailon Newble Toni Battie
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ilgauskaus, 2nd best in the east (2003-2004 season) Boozer was a top 5 PF in the East with 15.5 ppg and 11.4 rpg shooting at .523% FG and was a brutal defender and a banger offensively. McInnis was playing great, 12ppg 7.5 apg 1 spg 1.9 TOpg Lebron at SG Eric Williams at SF Bench guys Lee Nailon Newble Toni Battie</div> Boozer a brutal defender? He was considered a poor defender by most in Cleveland. Even his coaches in Utah were getting on him for his lack of defensive effort last season. We only had Jeff McInnis for 31 games, Williams and Battie for 50, and Nailon for 22 games. And that team was poorly put together. Most were poor defenders, we had no shooters (last in the league in 3pointers that season), no chemistry, and the team had little veteran leadership. Coaching was also an issue. Silas is one of the worst X's and O's coaches in the league imo. Our offense was for the players to run around like chickens with their heads cut off. His offensive sets were so basic and weren't used often. And Silas didn't have most of our players practicing basic defensive philosophies like rotating and how to defend the pick and roll.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq.Just watch the two players w/o bias and everyone will realize that as great as Wade is Lebron is no doubt better.Lebron is one of the best passers in the league.As many commentators have said,so many times that its almost cliche,Lebron can dominate the game w/o dominating the ball.The only thing I think you can give Wade over Lebron right now is the fact that Wade has come through in more clutch situations so far,more game winners.</div> Obviously there IS alot of doubt on whether Lebron is better... that's why we're having this discussion... Anyways, you mentioned Shaq. When I said that the talent level of the supporting casts aren't that much different, I meant for you to look at the last 2 series Miami has played. Shaq or not, Wade has dominated and putting up numbers that are pretty damn good - and this is in the playoffs. Moreover, when Shaq's out, the only player the opposing team really have to worry about is Wade, but guess what? He's still unstoppable. Clutch isn't the only part where Wade is better than Lebron, Wade is the better defender and the tougher/motivated player than Lebron is. That might change in time, but so far, Wade's got James' numbers in those departments.
