1. In the past 20 years, there have been only 2 QB's that were drafted in the 1st round that won a SB for the team that drafted them. These QB's are Troy Aikman and Ben Roethlisberger. Aikman did it with one of the most talented teams in history (HOF WR, RB, OT, OG x 2) and Big Ben was lucky to win his with the poor performance he put up.2. His Wonderlic score of 15. The Wonderlic test isn't the SAT's, it's not how much you know. It's how quickly and accurately you respond under pressure. The people who say this doesn't matter were backers of his prior to his score. People will bring up Dan Marino scoring low, but there are two things about that. First, the NFL he played in was a hell of a lot less complicated than the NFL of today. Second, to every rule there is always an exception. With aerodynamics, Bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly, but they can. With hydrodynamics Dolphins shouldn't be able to swim near as fast as they do, yet they swim that fast. Every rule has an exception. To quote Colin Cowherd, "1 out of every hundred men who jump off of a roof survive, but guess what? The other 99 DIE. So don't jump off a building just because you know someone who survived." When people bring up the success at players at different positions with low scores, I'll use another quote from Cowherd is "Think of an airline company, your football team is like an airline company. It's ok if the baggage handler score an 8, it's fine if the flight attendant scores a 13, but I for damn sure want the pilot's score to at least start with a 2, if not a 3 or a 4. And the QB is the pilot of your team." Then there are the people who say "well this ivy league QB scored a 48 and did nothing, so scores are meaningless." This is a logical fallacy. It takes 3 things to succeed at being a QB, the body, heart, and the mind. Scoring high doesn't make you a good QB, scoring high with the correct physical ability and mindset makes you a good prospect.3. Money money money.... MONAAYYY! Too much of it at one position. No one knows how effective Chad Pennington will be, but even with his new contract he has a lot of money flowing his way. Worst case scenario if we draft Vince (or any QB): Chad hits all of his contract incentives, we have 1/4 of our cap room tied up in two players at one position, and we lose games for the next 5 years because of it. Worst case scenario if we don't draft Vince (or any QB): Chad gets re-injured/falls off and is a shell of his former self. We lose games next year as a result and draft/sign a franchise QB next offseason. The worst case of the latter is more appealing because it allows us to build a team for the franchise, and if everything goes wrong it doesn't hinder us for half a decade.4. Running QB's don't succeed. They might get you to the playoffs, even to the Superbowl on a rare occasion (McNabb), but not a single rushing QB has won a Superbowl. Pocket QB's win Superbowls. Even Elway and Young had good feet, but they were pocket QB's first and only rushed as a last result. Going back to McNabb, even he is more of a pocket QB than most rushing QB's. Some people believe the NFL is changing. They said that when Michael Vick came into the NFL, everything would change. The NFL is still the same, pocket QB's win Superbowls. Period.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>1. In the past 20 years, there have been only 2 QB's that were drafted in the 1st round that won a SB for the team that drafted them. These QB's are Troy Aikman and Ben Roethlisberger. Aikman did it with one of the most talented teams in history (HOF WR, RB, OT, OG x 2) and Big Ben was lucky to win his with the poor performance he put up.</div>Ben wasn't lucky, even though he threw 2 interceptions, he still managed the game very well and he did made some big plays
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xpostxscript @ Mar 23 2006, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'> 1. In the past 20 years, there have been only 2 QB's that were drafted in the 1st round that won a SB for the team that drafted them. These QB's are Troy Aikman and Ben Roethlisberger. Aikman did it with one of the most talented teams in history (HOF WR, RB, OT, OG x 2) and Big Ben was lucky to win his with the poor performance he put up.</div>Ben wasn't lucky, even though he threw 2 interceptions, he still managed the game very well and he did made some big plays </div>9 for 21 (42.9 Completion %)0 TD's2 INT's123 Yards5.9 YPAForgive me if I disagree.
You forgot to add 1 rushing Td... He made some big first downs plays when we needed them so if it wasnt for those plays, steelers wouldnt be the Super Bowl Champs
I stopped reading after you said Big Ben got lucky..dude is a flat out stud, he didn't get "lucky".Ok so I continued reading after all.Running QB's don't succeed because there aren't very many of them in the league. Who would you consider a running QB? the odds are stacked against them. Give them a good situation and they have just as good of a chance as a throwing QB.The test scores have some weight I guess, as you do need some level of intelligence to play the game. However people talk about how smart Peyton Manning is and he ain't never won any Superbowl..and you could say he is the reason why.If I were a fan..I wouldn't care if he got paid if he was worth the cash..it all goes back to if you think he can succeed or not. if you knew he was going to be a top 5 QB in the league for the next 10 years and just passed on him because you didn't want to pay him..you'd be a fool.
I stopped reading after you said Big Ben got lucky..dude is a flat out stud, he didn't get "lucky".He is a stud QB. But you tell me his Superbowl stats, and knowing nothing else I'll bet 99 times out of 100 the QB with those game stats lost that gameOk so I continued reading after all.Good boy.Running QB's don't succeed because there aren't very many of them in the league. Who would you consider a running QB? the odds are stacked against them. Give them a good situation and they have just as good of a chance as a throwing QB.Starters: McNabb, Culpepper, Vick, McNair, Boller, and Brooks (Aaron) Bench Warmers: Mike McMahon, Shaun King, Seneca Wallace, Doug Flutie, Jeff GarciaThe test scores have some weight I guess, as you do need some level of intelligence to play the game. However people talk about how smart Peyton Manning is and he ain't never won any Superbowl..and you could say he is the reason why.Logical Fallacy. You provide no substance in your argument.If I were a fan..I wouldn't care if he got paid if he was worth the cash..it all goes back to if you think he can succeed or not. if you knew he was going to be a top 5 QB in the league for the next 10 years and just passed on him because you didn't want to pay him..you'd be a fool.If you think anything is a guarantee, you'd the fool. The closest thing to a sure thing in this year's draft is D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Of all of the top 5 prospects, and top at each position for that matter, he has the least questions surrounding him. So if you want to draft the player you "know" will be great, then he's your choice.And the payment thing is 100% about minimizing risk. As said above: if the Jets roll with the QB's they have now and are wrong, it trashes 1 season. If they draft a QB and their current QB's perform, then the team is trashed for 5 years due to too much money in one place. Minimize the risk, if need be draft a QB next year and you've still filled a hole this year that would have been needed filling anyhow. Drafting a franchise OLT or DE this year means that we don't have to draft one next year. If we pass on a QB this year we might need a QB next year, we might not. If we pass on either of those positions this year, we'll still need them next year. So playing the smart move, not the bold move, and drafting what you know you need will put you in the best position to win.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>3. Money money money.... MONAAYYY! Too much of it at one position. No one knows how effective Chad Pennington will be, but even with his new contract he has a lot of money flowing his way. Worst case scenario if we draft Vince (or any QB): Chad hits all of his contract incentives, we have 1/4 of our cap room tied up in two players at one position, and we lose games for the next 5 years because of it. Worst case scenario if we don't draft Vince (or any QB): Chad gets re-injured/falls off and is a shell of his former self. We lose games next year as a result and draft/sign a franchise QB next offseason. The worst case of the latter is more appealing because it allows us to build a team for the franchise, and if everything goes wrong it doesn't hinder us for half a decade.If they draft a QB and their current QB's perform, then the team is trashed for 5 years due to too much money in one place.</div>Not really.If we were in a situation where we drafted a QB and either Pennington or Ramsey worked out we would be in a situation like the San Diego Chargers were, where we could keep the QB of our choice and trade the other one. Lets say Chad Pennington just goes out there and tears it up next season while someone like Cutler is sitting on the bench. Then we have both Pennington and Cutler who are capable of leading our team....however, we could quite simply trade Pennington next offseason so that we can start Cutler, while getting a good draft pick in return. Yeah, the cap hit would hurt us for one season....but were not screwing ourselves for the next 5 years like you would think. If Pennington and Ramsey just completly suck it up out there, Ramsey is in the last year of his deal so we can just not resign him in UFA or we could cut Pennington, take the cap hit now....and then load up for 2007 anyways (Since we will be in good cap status)But if we dont take this opportunity to draft a Quarterback this year....and Ramsey and Pennington both suck it up next year, then we are screwed because then we have to draft another QB next offseason...have him sit on the bench for a year likely, and were planning on 2009 or 2010 instead.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If you think anything is a guarantee, you'd the fool.The closest thing to a sure thing in this year's draft is D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Of all of the top 5 prospects, and top at each position for that matter, he has the least questions surrounding him. So if you want to draft the player you "know" will be great, then he's your choice.And the payment thing is 100% about minimizing risk. As said above: if the Jets roll with the QB's they have now and are wrong, it trashes 1 season. If they draft a QB and their current QB's perform, then the team is trashed for 5 years due to too much money in one place. Minimize the risk, if need be draft a QB next year and you've still filled a hole this year that would have been needed filling anyhow. Drafting a franchise OLT or DE this year means that we don't have to draft one next year. If we pass on a QB this year we might need a QB next year, we might not. If we pass on either of those positions this year, we'll still need them next year. So playing the smart move, not the bold move, and drafting what you know you need will put you in the best position to win.</div>So let me get this straight.....there is less chance of a Franchise Tackle being a bust then a Quarterback?2000 - #3 Overall - Chris Samuels - Good player2001 - #2 Overall - Leonard Davis - Good player2002 - #4 Overall - Mike Williams - Bust2004 - #2 Overall - Robert Gallery - On his way to becoming a Bust.Every year these 'cant miss' offensive line prospects coming along....get chalked up as the next Orlando Pace or Walter Jones and then they cant live up to the expectations. Im not saying D'Brickashaw will be the same, but the chances of him being a bust are just as good as that of Robert Gallery being a bust...or Mike Williams being a bust.Lets say the Jets go out there and sign someone like Jon Runyan, If we did that we would have our hole at Tackle filled for the next 3 years with Adrian Jones and Jon Runyan playing on our offensive line. Then we dont need to spend a top 5 pick on one, and we dont need to do the same next year.Another thing you also like to keep bringing up is the money, but assuming we were to draft an offensive lineman at #4 overall, we would be forced to sign an UNKNOWN player to one of the richest contracts for Offensive Lineman in NFL History....do you really want that instead of a Potential Franchise QB?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Mar 24 2006, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>3. Money money money.... MONAAYYY! Too much of it at one position. No one knows how effective Chad Pennington will be, but even with his new contract he has a lot of money flowing his way. Worst case scenario if we draft Vince (or any QB): Chad hits all of his contract incentives, we have 1/4 of our cap room tied up in two players at one position, and we lose games for the next 5 years because of it. Worst case scenario if we don't draft Vince (or any QB): Chad gets re-injured/falls off and is a shell of his former self. We lose games next year as a result and draft/sign a franchise QB next offseason. The worst case of the latter is more appealing because it allows us to build a team for the franchise, and if everything goes wrong it doesn't hinder us for half a decade.If they draft a QB and their current QB's perform, then the team is trashed for 5 years due to too much money in one place.</div>Not really.If we were in a situation where we drafted a QB and either Pennington or Ramsey worked out we would be in a situation like the San Diego Chargers were, where we could keep the QB of our choice and trade the other one. Lets say Chad Pennington just goes out there and tears it up next season while someone like Cutler is sitting on the bench. Then we have both Pennington and Cutler who are capable of leading our team....however, we could quite simply trade Pennington next offseason so that we can start Cutler, while getting a good draft pick in return. Yeah, the cap hit would hurt us for one season....but were not screwing ourselves for the next 5 years like you would think. If Pennington and Ramsey just completly suck it up out there, Ramsey is in the last year of his deal so we can just not resign him in UFA or we could cut Pennington, take the cap hit now....and then load up for 2007 anyways (Since we will be in good cap status)But if we dont take this opportunity to draft a Quarterback this year....and Ramsey and Pennington both suck it up next year, then we are screwed because then we have to draft another QB next offseason...have him sit on the bench for a year likely, and were planning on 2009 or 2010 instead.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>If you think anything is a guarantee, you'd the fool.The closest thing to a sure thing in this year's draft is D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Of all of the top 5 prospects, and top at each position for that matter, he has the least questions surrounding him. So if you want to draft the player you "know" will be great, then he's your choice.And the payment thing is 100% about minimizing risk. As said above: if the Jets roll with the QB's they have now and are wrong, it trashes 1 season. If they draft a QB and their current QB's perform, then the team is trashed for 5 years due to too much money in one place. Minimize the risk, if need be draft a QB next year and you've still filled a hole this year that would have been needed filling anyhow. Drafting a franchise OLT or DE this year means that we don't have to draft one next year. If we pass on a QB this year we might need a QB next year, we might not. If we pass on either of those positions this year, we'll still need them next year. So playing the smart move, not the bold move, and drafting what you know you need will put you in the best position to win.</div>So let me get this straight.....there is less chance of a Franchise Tackle being a bust then a Quarterback?2000 - #3 Overall - Chris Samuels - Good player2001 - #2 Overall - Leonard Davis - Good player2002 - #4 Overall - Mike Williams - Bust2004 - #2 Overall - Robert Gallery - On his way to becoming a Bust.Every year these 'cant miss' offensive line prospects coming along....get chalked up as the next Orlando Pace or Walter Jones and then they cant live up to the expectations. Im not saying D'Brickashaw will be the same, but the chances of him being a bust are just as good as that of Robert Gallery being a bust...or Mike Williams being a bust.Lets say the Jets go out there and sign someone like Jon Runyan, If we did that we would have our hole at Tackle filled for the next 3 years with Adrian Jones and Jon Runyan playing on our offensive line. Then we dont need to spend a top 5 pick on one, and we dont need to do the same next year.Another thing you also like to keep bringing up is the money, but assuming we were to draft an offensive lineman at #4 overall, we would be forced to sign an UNKNOWN player to one of the richest contracts for Offensive Lineman in NFL History....do you really want that instead of a Potential Franchise QB?</div>Actually yes, there is less of a chance of a Franchise Left Tackle being a bust than a Franchise Quarterback. At least if you look at percentages. Lol, Chris Samuels is a great LT by the way.And if you don't, D'Brickashaw's value trumps every prospect since Pace. Alas, you are right, however, he has just a good of chance of being a bust as Robert Gallery, top 15 at his position in the NFL (right tackle) who will have a starting job locked down for the next decade.Are you serious with Adrian Jones filling the hole? Serious serious or hopeful serious? Did you watch him play this past year? I feel like Im the only one that actually WATCHED him play. He was a horrible right tackle and a slightly less horrible left tackle.And to your last question: Yes.Top 10 pick in the past 10 years:OTRobert Gallery - Top 15 RTJordan Gross - Top 10 LTMike Williams - BustBryant McKinnie - Top 10 LTLevi Jones - Top 10 LTLeonard Davis - Top 15 LTChris Samuels - Top 5 LTKyle Turley - Top/Bust He was great for a few years, then busted out)Orlando Pace - Top 5 LTWalter Jones - Top 5 LTJohn Ogden - Top 5 LTWillie Anderson - Top 15 LTQBAlex Smith - Bust, but earlyEli Manning - MediocrePhilip Rivers - ???Carson Palmer - Top 5Byron Leftwich - Top 15David Carr - BustJoey Harrington - BustMichael Vick - Mediocre (depending on who you ask, I suppose)Tim Couch - BustDonovan McNabb - Top 10Akili Smith - BustPeyton Manning - Top 5Ryan Leaf - BustSo lets count them up:10/12 OT's ended up being top players at their position.4/13 QB's ended up being top players at their position.Success rates:OT's: 83.3%QB's: 30.7%Translation: Tackles have a better success rate.------------------------------------------------------Beyond this line was edited and added on later------------------------------------------------------Now lets examine the draft position of the top players at each position...OT's:1. 1st overall2. 6th overall3. 4th overall4. 3rd overall5. 8th overall6. 8th overall7. 7th overall8. 10th overall9. 11th overall10. 19th overallAverage draft position: 7.7Median draft position: 7/8Rounds drafted in: 1QB's:1. 199th overall2. 1st overall3. 1st overall4. 187th overall5. 11th overall6. 32nd overall7. 2nd overall8. 256 (undrafted Rookie, 1 number over the 255th [last] draft pick)9. 33rd overall10. 18th overallAverage draft position: 74Median draft position: 18/32Rounds drafted in: 1, 2, 3, 6, and Undrafted.
OTRobert Gallery - BUST (2 years, 3 positions, horrible at 2 of them, mediocre at the third)Jordan Gross - Good TMike Williams - BUSTBryant McKinnie - Good TLevi Jones - Franchise TLeonard Davis - Franchise TChris Samuels - Good TKyle Turley - BUSTOrlando Pace - Franchise TWalter Jones - Franchise TJohn Ogden - Franchise TWillie Anderson - Franchise TQBAlex Smith - Too Soon To TellEli Manning - Good QB (The 12-4 Record Last Year and Clutch play ends the arguement)Philip Rivers - Too Soon To TellCarson Palmer - Franchise QBByron Leftwich - Good QBDavid Carr - Good QB (Damn Good QB when given time to throw the football)Joey Harrington - BUSTMichael Vick - Good QB (The Record he has as a starter doesnt lie)Tim Couch - BUSTDonovan McNabb - Franchise QBAkili Smith - BUSTPeyton Manning - Franchise QBRyan Leaf - BUSTTackles - 9/12 - 75%Quarterbacks - 7/11 - 63%Translation: OT's percentages in the Past 10 years have been better, but not by much. And considering the higher importantance of the QB position the reward outweighs the risk.You can find quality tackles rather easily outside of the first round.....Matt Lepsis (UDFA), Barry Sims (UDFA), Matt Light (2nd Rounder), Kareem McKenzie (3rd rounder), Jonas Jennings (3rd rounder), Jon Runyan (4th Rounder), Kevin Shaffer (7th Rounder), Ryan Diem (4th Rounder), Jon Stintchcomb (2nd rounder), Sean Locklear (3rd Rounder), Adrian Jones (4th Rounder), Chad Clifton (2nd Rounder), Marvel Smith (2nd Rounder), Flozell Adams (2nd rounder).Outside of Brady, Hasselbeck, and Delhomme though, the majority of Franchise QB's come from the first round or very early round 2. (McNabb, Palmer, Manning, Culpepper, Roethlisberger, Brees, Favre ect.)PS: Apparantly Jake Plummer (42 overall) isnt a top 10 QB, either Culpepper or Roethlisberger (11th overall) arent a top 10 QB, but Jake Delhomme (UDFA) and Chad Pennington (18th Overall) are.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Mar 24 2006, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OTRobert Gallery - BUST (2 years, 3 positions, horrible at 2 of them, mediocre at the third)Jordan Gross - Good TMike Williams - BUSTBryant McKinnie - Good TLevi Jones - Franchise TLeonard Davis - Franchise TChris Samuels - Good TKyle Turley - BUSTOrlando Pace - Franchise TWalter Jones - Franchise TJohn Ogden - Franchise TWillie Anderson - Franchise TQBAlex Smith - Too Soon To TellEli Manning - Good QB (The 12-4 Record Last Year and Clutch play ends the arguement)Philip Rivers - Too Soon To TellCarson Palmer - Franchise QBByron Leftwich - Good QBDavid Carr - Good QB (Damn Good QB when given time to throw the football)Joey Harrington - BUSTMichael Vick - Good QB (The Record he has as a starter doesnt lie)Tim Couch - BUSTDonovan McNabb - Franchise QBAkili Smith - BUSTPeyton Manning - Franchise QBRyan Leaf - BUSTTackles - 9/12 - 75%Quarterbacks - 7/11 - 63%Translation: OT's percentages in the Past 10 years have been better, but not by much. And considering the higher importantance of the QB position the reward outweighs the risk.You can find quality tackles rather easily outside of the first round.....Matt Lepsis (UDFA), Barry Sims (UDFA), Matt Light (2nd Rounder), Kareem McKenzie (3rd rounder), Jonas Jennings (3rd rounder), Jon Runyan (4th Rounder), Kevin Shaffer (7th Rounder), Ryan Diem (4th Rounder), Jon Stintchcomb (2nd rounder), Sean Locklear (3rd Rounder), Adrian Jones (4th Rounder), Chad Clifton (2nd Rounder), Marvel Smith (2nd Rounder), Flozell Adams (2nd rounder).Outside of Brady, Hasselbeck, and Delhomme though, the majority of Franchise QB's come from the first round or very early round 2. (McNabb, Palmer, Manning, Culpepper, Roethlisberger, Brees, Favre ect.)PS: Apparantly Jake Plummer (42 overall) isnt a top 10 QB, either Culpepper or Roethlisberger (11th overall) arent a top 10 QB, but Jake Delhomme (UDFA) and Chad Pennington (18th Overall) are. </div>Wow... so filled with inaccuracies I don't know where to begin. Clearly you are dillusional, and since your an "admin" I'll back off so that I don't get slammed with a ban. I know how admin's who post amongst the groups are: Power trippers.Have a nice day.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jon_Vilma @ Mar 24 2006, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Mar 24 2006, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OTRobert Gallery - BUST (2 years, 3 positions, horrible at 2 of them, mediocre at the third)Jordan Gross - Good TMike Williams - BUSTBryant McKinnie - Good TLevi Jones - Franchise TLeonard Davis - Franchise TChris Samuels - Good TKyle Turley - BUSTOrlando Pace - Franchise TWalter Jones - Franchise TJohn Ogden - Franchise TWillie Anderson - Franchise TQBAlex Smith - Too Soon To TellEli Manning - Good QB (The 12-4 Record Last Year and Clutch play ends the arguement)Philip Rivers - Too Soon To TellCarson Palmer - Franchise QBByron Leftwich - Good QBDavid Carr - Good QB (Damn Good QB when given time to throw the football)Joey Harrington - BUSTMichael Vick - Good QB (The Record he has as a starter doesnt lie)Tim Couch - BUSTDonovan McNabb - Franchise QBAkili Smith - BUSTPeyton Manning - Franchise QBRyan Leaf - BUSTTackles - 9/12 - 75%Quarterbacks - 7/11 - 63%Translation: OT's percentages in the Past 10 years have been better, but not by much. And considering the higher importantance of the QB position the reward outweighs the risk.You can find quality tackles rather easily outside of the first round.....Matt Lepsis (UDFA), Barry Sims (UDFA), Matt Light (2nd Rounder), Kareem McKenzie (3rd rounder), Jonas Jennings (3rd rounder), Jon Runyan (4th Rounder), Kevin Shaffer (7th Rounder), Ryan Diem (4th Rounder), Jon Stintchcomb (2nd rounder), Sean Locklear (3rd Rounder), Adrian Jones (4th Rounder), Chad Clifton (2nd Rounder), Marvel Smith (2nd Rounder), Flozell Adams (2nd rounder).Outside of Brady, Hasselbeck, and Delhomme though, the majority of Franchise QB's come from the first round or very early round 2. (McNabb, Palmer, Manning, Culpepper, Roethlisberger, Brees, Favre ect.)PS: Apparantly Jake Plummer (42 overall) isnt a top 10 QB, either Culpepper or Roethlisberger (11th overall) arent a top 10 QB, but Jake Delhomme (UDFA) and Chad Pennington (18th Overall) are. </div>Wow... so filled with inaccuracies I don't know where to begin. Clearly you are dillusional, and since your an "admin" I'll back off so that I don't get slammed with a ban. I know how admin's who post amongst the groups are: Power trippers.Have a nice day.</div>Go ahead, try and prove me wrong And Im pretty far from being a "Power Tripper"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Mar 24 2006, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Either that or I was right so that you have no comeback.And Im pretty far from being a "Power Tripper" </div>Fine.1. You have no idea of the maning of the word "clutch." Both of the last two losses in the regular season for the Giants = Eli Manning's innaccurate arm's fault.Giant's Playoff loss = Eli Manning's fault.One of the worst completion percentages in the league, ant yet he's already a "good" QB. LMFAO!!!2. Your proclaimation of David Carr as a "damn good QB" is laughable. He has done nothing, literally nothing, to prove this. You are GUESSING at this. 3. Calling Michael Vick a good QB because of his record as a starter. Kyle Orton must be a badass then. Seriously, best QB in the league. Record doesn't lie.4. Even by your own tabulations, Offensive Tackles still win out.5. Going in depth on your skewed tabulations, it's 6/12 OT's to 3/13 QB's on how often a player is a "Franchise" player. OT's still dominate.6. While you say "Outside of Brady, Hasselbeck, and Delhomme though, the majority of Franchise QB's come from the first round or very early round 2. Every Top Offensive tackle came in the 1st round. There is no "outside of."7. What a crock of bullish of "You can find quality tackles rather easily outside of the first round." First off, you can find talent at Every position outside of the first round. But save for unimportant positions (punters, etc), it's not easy, for any position. Especially Franchise talent, which is what we are talking about here.8. Culpepper has yet to prove that he can do anything without Randy Moss. When he had a chance, he was about the worst QB in the league.
Hey nothing wrong with a nice solid debate, if we had more posts like what you two had, this forum would be that much better.However, you do realize that when I asked you to name running QB's, you gave me McNabb, Culpepper, Vick, McNair, Boller who are all currently starters, and 2 of them have played in super bowls of the 5 of them correct? Four of them are still pretty young..an 1 of them Boller is a borderline running QB..although i'll give it to ya.I mean sure they have yet to win one, but so have mostly everybody not named Tom Brady.
3762 Yards, 24 TD-17 INT, 12-5 RecordYeah, he only completed 52% of his passes, but I think the rest of the stats outweigh that. He had one of the highest QB ratings in the 4th quarter in the league, 2nd to only his brother Peyton Manning which is why he has proven he can be clutch.The Giants playoff loss was the fault of the entire Giants team. Im sure it was Eli's fault that they allowed 23 points....and it was Eli's fault that Tiki Barber was shutdown(13-41), and it was Eli's fault that the Giants Defense couldnt stop Deshaun Foster(27-151). Yeah, he had a bad game, but even if he had the best game of his career they still would have lost. In 2004, when David Carr had a half decent offensive line in front of him.....he put up.61.2% completion, 3531 Yards, 16 TD - 14 INT and he led the Texans to a 7-9 Record..... Maybe not the best season ever, but enough to show that he isnt a complete bust when he is on a bad team like that. Percentage-wise, yeah they do win out.But even you cant deny that the value of a Franchise QB is much greater then that of getting a Franchise Tackle, and that the risk involved in a Franchise QB is worth the reward it will pay out. Do I really need to tear apart your Tackle rankings?Because you have lost your mind if you think people like Bryant McKinney are better then Matt Lepsis (UDFA), and Im sure I could make a good arguement on McKenzie, Runyan, Diem, and/or Clifton over Jordan Gross. He was also playing with a new offensive system, without Nate Burleson for half off the time, and is only one year off of throwing for 69.2% Accuracy, 4717 Yards, 39 TD, 11 INT for a 110.9 Rating, and Randy Moss was playing hurt for half off that season and also missed 3 games. Nate Burleson was their leading reciever that season.
[quote name='AdropOFvenom' post='37438' date='Mar 24 2006, 10:47 AM'] 3762 Yards, 24 TD-17 INT, 12-5 RecordYeah, he only completed 52% of his passes, but I think the rest of the stats outweigh that. He had one of the highest QB ratings in the 4th quarter in the league, 2nd to only his brother Peyton Manning which is why he has proven he can be clutch.The Giants playoff loss was the fault of the entire Giants team. Im sure it was Eli's fault that they allowed 23 points....and it was Eli's fault that Tiki Barber was shutdown(13-41), and it was Eli's fault that the Giants Defense couldnt stop Deshaun Foster(27-151). Yeah, he had a bad game, but even if he had the best game of his career they still would have lost.[/quote]- An 85.7 QB rating in the 4th is "on of the highest in the legue" Riiiiigggghhhhtttt. If by highest you mean middle-of-the-pack.It was Eli's fault for throwing 3 INT's. It was Eli's fault for fumbling the ball and losing it. 4 turnovers, and no TD's by the QB... and he's blameless. - Leading a mediocre team to mediocrity isn't impressive, sorry. Guesswork. The risk isn't worth the reward, with the best QB's in the league coming from everywhere, and the best OT's in the league coming from the top 19 picks... Take Charlie Whitehurst if you must, but history has proven that drafting QB's high rarely works out in the drafting team's favor. Try all you'd like, for the most part ESPN's rankings back my play, though everyone is entitled to their opinion.And BTW, McKinney can do everything, and Lepsis is nothing but a quick stunt/cut blocker cut from the Denver mold of cheap blocking. I'm a former TE, I know all about not being good enough to beat the DE, so you cross-cut him and put him on the ground. That's all Lepsis does, stunt and cut. Runyan and Clifton struggle with pass blocking, McKenzie can't screen, and I hope you're joking with Diem. When Penny's WR's were injured/gone, he didn't throw for a 1-2 TD-INT ratio. That's all I'm saying.[quote name='Combs' post='37436' date='Mar 24 2006, 10:18 AM']Hey nothing wrong with a nice solid debate, if we had more posts like what you two had, this forum would be that much better.However, you do realize that when I asked you to name running QB's, you gave me McNabb, Culpepper, Vick, McNair, Boller who are all currently starters, and 2 of them have played in super bowls of the 5 of them correct? Four of them are still pretty young..an 1 of them Boller is a borderline running QB..although i'll give it to ya.I mean sure they have yet to win one, but so have mostly everybody not named Tom Brady.[/quote]If you read what I wrote, I'd conceded that running QB's have gone to the playoffs and some even to the Superbowl. But not 1 has ever won a Superbowl. Not 1.Boller ran a 4.61 40 yard dash, .03 slower than Vince Young and .01 faster than McNabb.Though in hindsight Jake Plummer would have fit better.
To be honest, it doesnt really even matter anyways. Not to mention this has gone horribly off-topic.Im just going to leave it at I want a QB not named Young at 4. Or I want to trade down. Under no circumstances do I want to trade up.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Mar 24 2006, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To be honest, it doesnt really even matter anyways. Not to mention this has gone horribly off-topic.Im just going to leave it at I want a QB not named Young at 4. Or I want to trade down. Under no circumstances do I want to trade up.</div>I'd say it's fairly on topic.... Discussing the merits of drafting Young.I want the Minnesota deal, rather than the Denver deal (both pure rumor anyhow) if the choice is offered.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jon_Vilma @ Mar 24 2006, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Mar 24 2006, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To be honest, it doesnt really even matter anyways. Not to mention this has gone horribly off-topic.Im just going to leave it at I want a QB not named Young at 4. Or I want to trade down. Under no circumstances do I want to trade up.</div>I'd say it's fairly on topic.... Discussing the merits of drafting Young.I want the Minnesota deal, rather than the Denver deal (both pure rumor anyhow) if the choice is offered.</div>I meant discussing weather Eli Manning is a good QB or not has very little to do with Vince Young possibly coming to the Jets I've heard both of those rumors too, but to be honest, I would prefer to only trade down to #7-8 or so, still get a blue chip prospect like Vernon Davis or Haloti Ngata, or a QB like Cutler should he fall that far, and pick up the extra second rounder while im at it.
i tihnk trade down to 10 or 9, take Vernon DAvis......he looks better than Antonio Gates, RIGHT NOW. Then either pick up a late 1st rounder or a early 2nd
