A heretical thought / And something about Orlando

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Bingo Bango, May 24, 2023.

  1. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Lol. Hey man, whatever you have to do to feel better about yourself. Fly after it.

    Wow. Dame wanted to win. Shocking. Did Dame demand we keep CJ? Did Dame demand we make those specific trades? No. He very likely supported management when he was told that was the best they could do.
    Again, Olshey sucked and had fucked up motives for creating his imbalanced and poor defensive rosters.

    This last season was expected. Cronin literally said it was an imbalanced roster before the season started. When the Blazers started hot it was a HUGE surprise. Nobody has suggested we do the same thing as last year. Nobody.

    You obviously haven't been reading much of what I've said. I'm fine with drafting at #3. I'm fine with trading it. As I've said multiple times.

    Our best shot at a title in the next decade is by keeping Dame and adding to him. There is no low risk way to replace his production, experience, or star power. All of which you need in the playoffs. If he decides he wants out we should get the best value possible out of him. But it will hurt us more than it will help us for likely 4+ years. Teams don't often get better in the near term or the long term by trading their stars.
     
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  2. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    you're right, Caruso would be a nice addition. Not sure the Blazers have enough to get it done along with DDR for Ant

    Ant + Little +Keon +23 for DDR + Caruso + all future 1st's back?
     
  3. BankTeller

    BankTeller Well-Known Member

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    :smiley-dizzy: that would be one hell of a trade package for Simons. Bodes well for the possibility of a good Dame trade return if it ever came to that in the future. We got two lotto picks for Ant, Dame is going to command much more.

    If we had #3, #6, #11, AND #23? I would trade down to #4 + #20 and get Amen for sure, and Lively would be someone I take a serious look at. With #6, #11, #20, and #23, we would have the choice to go down many routes. Having both Thompson twins is certainly tantalizing. Hendricks is also someone I would want, but maybe Jarace Walker is already a win-now kind of prospect. Getting our 1sts back from CHI for #23 is a must.

    Lots of possibilities if Ant for both their lotto picks was even a remote possibility.
     
  4. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru Well-Known Member

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    I can't see Orlando even considering that...
     
  5. Bingo Bango

    Bingo Bango Well-Known Member

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    I don’t. But I think they have a better chance of striking gold in the draft than through trades or free-agent acquisitions. All-Stars don’t want to come to Portland, but if you can draft some future All-Stars, they may fall in love with the town and decide they want to stay. That’s what happened with Lillard.

    The point of my post, however, was that if Portland fans felt betrayed by Cronin going back on his word not to trade Lillard, they would get over it like they’ve gotten over everything else in franchise history.
     
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  6. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    there would not be an issue because Dame won't be traded unless he asks to be traded, and if he does, Cronin will not be slammed for that

    people would save their outrage for what Dame is traded for
     
  7. lamlor

    lamlor Well-Known Member

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    My thought is that he did have to say this for the benefit of Lillard. If he said, "all options are under review", that creates a media frenzy for Lillard who now would have to answer, "What is your thoughts on this?" and "Do you feel as if the team isn't as committed to you as they have been in the past?". Plus, in my opinion, in doesn't damage his trade value. A disgruntled Lillard has less value I would think.
     
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  8. BankTeller

    BankTeller Well-Known Member

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    6 & 11 for 3 sound good without context. Scoot is said to be a generational kind of PG and would’ve gone #1 in many other past NBA drafts. If CHA skips out on Scoot for Miller, we’re giving up a sure thing, so the return has to be bigger than two lower chances at a sure thing, otherwise you might as well hold onto the sure thing. I’m holding out hope for Wagner and #6 if a deal gets done with ORL. #3 and Nurk for WCJ, Bol, #6, and #11 would also be good. #3 for #6 and #11 is where I pause until I know who the previous four were.
     
  9. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

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    I was just saying in another thread that I think #3 and Nurk for Wagner, WCJ and #11 is something that makes sense. Nurk matches WCJ's contract and Wagner fits into the TPE. You still have #11, #23 and the salaries of Ant and Nas to try and make one more splashy move on draft night.
     
  10. lamlor

    lamlor Well-Known Member

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    I think if you have to make a move with the pick, this is one of the better options I see. BUT, I still think Scoot could be a generational talent much like Lillard became and the thought of passing that up makes me cringe.
     
  11. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    You said there was no evidence of him doing so and I gave you direct quotes of him saying he did so. Without a pause, you move on to Dame wanted to win as if thats some sort of excuse, as if not everyone wants to. He meddled then, he's meddling now. Whats the point of having a discussion with you if you're going to be so disingenuous? Trading away two #1's for Roco was a complete and total bust for the team that he pushed the GM to do... thats a fact. You have no clue what Dame how adamantly he was behind the scenes demanding this specific move (or others) just like you had no clue that he went to Olshey and told (his words) him to go for it that offseason in the first place. I don't buy any of what you're posting about this, do you?

    The Blazers started off squeaking out some tight victories, whatever. What does that have to do with them lacking talent then and now? They sucked last year and are very unlikely to be vastly improved this year.

    lol, thats obviously not what I was referring to.

    if this were true, then they have next to no shot of winning a title in the next decade as Dame is near done and Portland is no where close. I just don't buy your overall gloom and doom premise about a future post DL. With Dame, if they do everything right this offseason and the stars align perfectly with an amazing offseason in draft/trades, Shaedon transcending into greatness like Neo, Nurk finding fitness Jebus and everyone staying super healthy, they've the longest of outside shots at contending in 2024-5. I'm not holding my breath. There is no telling how good Shaedon will be once he comes into his own. The guys who could be his running mates could be even better. Portland's best odds at competing and winning are down the line. Step one, they need to keep and hit on their picks understanding they've a long journey ahead.

    STOMP
     
  12. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    I 100% believe Dame implored Olshey to be aggressive. I expect every All Star in the league is doing the same.

    I don't think Dame made any of those moves or that Olshey's hands were tied in any way by Dame.

    I don't think Joe's hands are tied by Dame either.

    They expected to suck last year. And you're free to your opinion about this upcoming year.

    Don't know what you're talking about then.

    Yes, that's correct. They have next to no shot at winning a title in the next 10 years.

    However, IMO they have a better chance of doing so with Dame than without him.
     
  13. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    No he's not tying anyone's hands, he's publicly threatening to leave if Joe doesn't do what he wants (trade picks for impact vets... like Roco) so wrong analogy. More, my way or the highway. Thats not being a team player which seems like might have been the case for a while now

    obviously what happens around the draft will impact everyone's outlook, I'm just not seeing a short term path to greatness

    disagree. Hitting on their picks is paramount to their long term potential with last year's selection boosting my hopes management knows what they're doing, but you're free to your opinion about sucking for the next decade

    Capped out, not very good with their top talent about to hit the downslope as his pay escalates and takes up even more of the cap... disagree again

    Hopefully thats enough for you as I'm pretty much done with this

    STOMP
     
  14. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Disagree. I don't think he's done that at all. That is your perception, and I think the interview Dame did the other day on the boxing show kind of confirms how inaccurate that perception is.

    History tells me it's far less likely that trading Dame will help us get great than if we add to Dame. Teams usually don't get better by trading All Stars.


    Not once did I ever say anything about sucking for the next decade. That is you, once again, applying a position to me that I don't have. If you have to do that to continue the conversation we should cease the conversation.

    Half of the teams in the league have never one a title. Every small market team has a near zero chance at winning a title in the next decade unless they have multiple veteran all star caliber players.
    It doesn't mean every small market team sucks. It just means it takes star power, great coaching, and a balanced roster to get small market teams a chance. Even then, they nearly always fail to win a championship.

    It's alright to disagree.

    You've been done since very early on when you started making arguments against positions I haven't advocated for.
     
  15. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    The problem is that it's not that binary.

    There's too many factors to make it that simple. Dame's age. His health. Who is available to acquire. Who is available to draft. There's this big mix of variables, and unfortunately we're running out of time.

    Think about this..... it has been two years since Dame first voiced frustrations about the team and hinted at maybe wanting out. TWO YEARS. We have burned two more years of Dame's prime and what do we have to show for it? Are we any closer to contending than we were two years ago? No.... in fact we're much further away. Dame is almost 33. Yes, he's an All-Star right now. Yes, he probably has a few more years where he can play at this level, but that time is finite.

    I think Dame is in a position where he doesn't really want to leave. He just built a castle. His family is all here. He loves our city. He's comfortable. I totally get that. But realistically, it's in his best interest and the teams best interest to trade him. Dame won't be able to contend here (most likely). He only has a few years left where he can play at a high level. Now is the time to go after that ring. Conversely, the team shouldn't be selling off their future to try to win with Dame, and they should cash in the Dame chip while they can still get decent value for him to help with the rebuild. Nobody seems to want to admit that it's time for a divorce.
     
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  16. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Ok. What does that look like? What could we get out of Dame that would help us and put him in position to contend for a title?

    I can't really think of anything. So divorce seems a whole lot worse than moving ahead with Dame, Sharpe, Grant, Nurk, #3, and Simons.

    If we can turn #3, #23, and Simons into legit valued vets who fit we're going to be in the running for a top 4 seed.
     
  17. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I agreed with that sentence until the last 9 letters
     
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  18. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Depends on the team. Obviously Dame said that he would prefer Miami or Brooklyn, but I still love the idea of trading him to Boston for Brown and then sending Brown to a team like OKC or Houston for picks and young players.

    Worse in what way? Would trading Dame mean that we would lose more games for the foreseeable future? Probably. I guess it depends on how fast the young guys developed, and what their ceiling is. Boston was able to turn it around immediately with Brown and Tatum. To me, building towards a championship is the only path I'm interested in, and I think we have reached the ceiling of what this team can do with Dame. That is unless we can add another legitimate star.

    We already did sacrifice our future for "legit valued vets." We got RoCo and Norm and Nance. We don't need legit valued vets. We need another legit star or stars.
     
  19. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Sorry, but that's just wrong. It's presumptuous.

    People need to stop thinking of what they would want and projecting it onto Damian Lillard or anyone else. You just stated a bunch of things Dame has in Portland. Maybe that's what he wants and that's what holds the MOST value to him, more than winning a championship. Realistically, THAT -- being happy -- is what's in his best interest.

    It gets so tiresome to keep having to remind folks that different people prioritize different things. We're not a bunch of identical objects coming off an assembly line.
     
  20. BIG Q

    BIG Q Well-Known Member

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    And to add to all of this, it seems prime draft picks are available in trade this season more so than all stars. I'm not advocating anything, but it seems Ant can be traded for a top 10 pick. I doubt Orlando Gives up 6 and 11, but Ant is a hometown kid. I would take 6 and Harris.
     
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