A heretical thought / And something about Orlando

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Bingo Bango, May 24, 2023.

  1. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    But that's not what he has been saying. He has said repeatedly that he wants the team to try to contend, and that might not be possible.

    So for his career, it makes very little sense to stay in Portland.
     
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  2. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    You're absolutely wrong, Nate. And not just in one way.

    First, someone told me something years ago and it rings truer every day I get older: "Pay closer attention to what they do than what they say."

    Then, where you take a mighty swing and a miss is the idea that Dame saying he wants to contend isn't a thing, but it's EVERYTHING. It's THE ONLY THING.

    Of course Dame wants to contend. I mentioned somewhere else, though, that's not really the question. It should be expected that he wants to win. The actual question you and others need to be asking is "What is MOST important to Damian Lillard?" Is it contending? Is it making the utmost attempt to contend? Is it making an honest attempt to contend but within a framework of realizing it might not be possible and then saying "I'd love to win, but I love the stability and loyalty and being a builder more than just being a piece on a championship team that I otherwise had nothing to do with."

    Is the best job the one that makes you the most visible or pays you the most money, or is the best job the one that pays you just enough to be comfortable but also affords you time to spend with your family and the ability to foster worthwhile relationships that the first two jobs might not? The answer to that isn't the same for everyone.

    You hear rumors, or hear Dame answering leading questions and then you conclude A. Other people conclude Z. There might be elements of A and Z in the answer, but there are 24 letters in between that might even be more accurate, complete answers and you aren't even open to them because, in your mind, you know what you would do and that means that's what Dame would/should do.

    I've read and listened to allllll the same Dame interviews you have, and, I have to tell you, what you say is true, but it's also a very limited, non-contextual version of what he's actually put out there. And context matters. It still matters, and it makes a big difference when you're trying to assess all of this.
     
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  3. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    You think I'm wrong, but that's just your opinion based on the same information that I have seen. We're both speculating based on what Dame has said. To me, these statements are very clear. "I want a chance to go for it." What do you think that means? I suspect he doesn't mean he wants to go for the 8th seed. He doesn't want to get bounced in the first round. If Dame wants a chance to go for it, that probably means he needs to go somewhere else.

    From April
    "I don't have much of an appetite for building and guys 2-3 years away from really going after it. I think we get Shaedon at 19 and he's just different. I think just being around him, his disposition, how he listens, his frame, his natural talent and his ability... that's enough 19 year olds. And you probably won't find one that will come along the way he has. I'm just not interested in that. This is not a secret. I want a chance to go for it. If the route is to do that, well that's not my route. I think we're all in line with doing what we gotta do to put a team together that we can actually go out there and get something done."

    From yesterday
    "We got an opportunity asset wise to build a team that can compete. That would be the number one thing, but if we can't do that, obviously like I said for months now, then there would be a separate conversation that we would have to have. We have to let things take their course."

    "I'm not a fool. I'm not crazy. I love the organization that I play for, I love the city that I live in, and I'm going to give them every opportunity to give me... give us what we need to have a true chance to compete for that. If that's something that isn't possible, or something that can't get done, then we got a different conversation to be had."
     
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  4. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

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    I think CJ put it best......he just wants a fighting chance.
     
  5. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Totally, but to get from where we are now as a roster, to a point where we have a punchers chance is..... quite a ways.
     
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  6. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Well, the difference is that one of us actually is looking at a full picture while the other is taking bits and pieces, keeping what fits his narrative and discarding what doesn't. Usually, a person that's trying to portray an accurate picture of what's happening wouldn't go so far as to tell his opposition that they do have a point in what they are saying but that they are missing or deliberately excluding vital information in pursuit of a narrative.

    However, if you are comfortable in continuing to portray yourself and pursue your argument in that way, that's fine. I just think you're going to realize that it looks disingenuous.

    None of the other quotes you posted or even the parts you bolded change anything. I already addressed them. In fact, as I mentioned at the very beginning of the post to which you're replying, I put more stock in Dame's actions than his words, but you are, as I just said above, taking his words and putting your own emphasis on what advances your narrative, completely free of context and even what questions he was answering.

    The bottom line, though, is none of those quotes exclude the interpretation I present. It's not the win you seem to think it is.

    You also completely ignored the bigger point -- and, not surprisingly, the 2,000-pound gorilla that crushes your entire position -- that Dame can say all of that and it doesn't exclude other possibilities (which, BTW, are more strongly evidenced in his actions and other comments that you avoid) or, more importantly, that Dame can want exactly what you say he wants but at the end of the day value other things even more than that.

    Anyway, I guess we can keep going this way where you continue to double-down on stuff I've already addressed and effectively rebuffed, or you can read what I actually wrote, stop pretending you're in Dame's head, and reconsider your biases. It's your time. If I have time to explain the fallacies again, I'll try to do so.
     
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  7. lamlor

    lamlor Well-Known Member

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    I truly don't understand the debate. Building a winner isn't realistic with what we have.

    Money - Don't have it to buy a stud free agent
    Nurk - You are going to get something young and needs developing or something old, but not something good.
    Ant - A mid level talent the same as him but maybe at another position
    Grant - We didn't give up talent for him and his value didn't exactly go up.
    Sharpe - Would a team give up an All-Star caliber for a possible up and comer? Maybe. Salaries would be enough to match if so.
    #3 Pick - See first sentence of Sharpe.

    Now add in we have a GM that is green and didn't really show much in his only opportunity to remake the team last year. Maybe you all know something I don't.
     
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  8. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Let me ask you something, Nate. Have you ever wanted more than one thing, or has your entire life been driven by absolutes?

    Your position on this almost is like someone would view Damian Lillard as a fictional character without complex, multiply-directional motivations that he has to try to balance. You make him out as very two-dimensional, very shallow and simple. It's neither realistic of a human being nor is is very becoming. You aren't a dumb guy. I think you can see this if you just got out of the rhetorical/hyperbole spin cycle you seem to be caught up in right now.
     
  9. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    I don't have to be in Dame's head. He was very clear.

    How can you misunderstand his statements? Even his best friend, CJ McCollum, said that he thinks he will be traded.
     
  10. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Because it all seems very simple to me. Dame has made some very clear statements about what he wants. He's almost 33 years old. He only has a few years left where he's playing at this level. If he wants to go for it, as he said, it's unlikely he will be able to go for it here.

    I'm positive that Dame will retire in Portland when he's all done playing. So I'm not sure what actions you think are so contrary to what Dame has actually said about the situation.
     
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  11. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    That's great... but that's assuming that both jobs can offer you the same thing. Portland can't offer Dame a chance to win, and winning is very important to him. He has said that multiple times. Dame might only play 3-4 more years. Guys start to face their own mortality when they realize that time is running out and they're not young anymore. Money can't buy Dame a chance at a ring. If he wants to have a shot at a ring, he might have to leave some of those comforts that you mentioned.
     
  12. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Actually, to think he was clear and absolute drawing from that shows a clear issue with your thought process. As I just mentioned, there's absolutely no room for nuance in your head.

    Glad you asked, and thank you for the opportunity.

    First, last I checked. CJ McCollum is not Damian Lillard. Maybe you know something I don't, but I don't think they are one and the same and I don't think they share the same brain.

    Second, am I mistaken or did CJ say he didn't speak to Dame about this and it only was his opinion?

    I mean, I just think you're getting argumentative in a weird way here if you can't read your post and see the problems with it. You're literally doing everything I've been pointing out that undermines your posts -- half-truths, lack of nuance, lack of open-mindedness, lack of a real-world view.
     
  13. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    That's a big part of your problem. It's simple to YOU. I've explained why multiple times. You keep avoiding that and just saying "It is because I say it is." That's ridiculous.

    Not sure how many times I'm going to have to say this and at this point I think maybe you see where you got off the rails and just don't want to face it, but Damian Lillard saying he wants something doesn't mean it's the only thing or things he wants and it doesn't mean it even is THE thing he wants most when choices have to be made. He's said and done a lot that don't match your limited narrative, too, but you are avoiding addressing those things like the plague for what I suspect are pretty obvious reasons.

    I think conclusions can be drawn by other posters by how you completely avoided my question, too.
     
  14. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    These are clear statements.

    "I'm just not interested in that."

    "I don't have much of an appetite"

    "If the route is to do that, well that's not my route"

    "I'm going to give them every opportunity to give me... give us what we need to have a true chance to compete for that. If that's something that isn't possible, or something that can't get done, then we got a different conversation to be had."

    There's plenty of room for nuance in some cases, but Dame made some very clear statements about what he wants. And when he was asked to expand on this, he repeated multiple times that he felt that he was very clear on his statements. If you choose to not take the man at his own word, I guess that's up to you.
     
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  15. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

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    I think it's about a coin flip right now. Joe might see Scoot and Shaedon as the future of this franchise. He might have deals that would get him quality young prospects and picks for Dame, Ant and Nurk. He might also have some deals in the works that turn Ant, pick 3 and filler into a second star for Dame. It's a crazy time and all we can do is wait and see.
     
  16. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

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    Quite a ways? I am not sure that is true. Like you, I watched almost every playoff game this postseason and by far the best team in the West is Denver, a team that plays 8 guys and for once is finally healthy. Will that happen two years in a row? The Lakers and Warriors are getting older. The Suns got older by adding Durant and lost depth. Things could easily go sideways in Memphis. Dallas got worse. Minnesota does not scare me and until NO stays healthy I am unsure of them.

    Sacramento is the one team that seems to have turned the corner but are they scary good? OKC and the Jazz can all move up but again....not dominant.

    So based on that I find myself thinking that one good starting forward can give Dame his fighting chance. (plus a MLE vet off the bench)
    Now that can also be said of multiple teams as one player can make a difference. Trades and FA can change things so it might be different in October.
     
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  17. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    It's not because I say it is. It's because Dame says it is. I'm quoting the man directly. You just refuse to take him at his word.

    Which question? "Have you ever wanted more than one thing, or has your entire life been driven by absolutes?" If I were to come out and say something as specific as what Dame said, I would 100% follow through because he has fully thought out his feelings. He even said that he's not being emotional about it.

    If I told my wife that I wanted kids, and she kept putting it off, and I got the point where it was shit or get off the pot, I would follow through. Is that what you want?
     
  18. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    It's actually doing the exact opposite, and I'm not sure how you even arrived at that. I gave you three jobs that have three different points of appeal.

    I feel like I am talking to a wall.

    Yes, winning is very important to Dame. We've not been in disagreement on that, so for you to continue to post that is counter-productive.

    The question is: Is it the MOST important thing to Damian Lillard?

    You are making the assumption that it is because he was asked specific questions about what he would like. Then you added 1 and 1 and arrived at 7,432,893 because, I would guess, if you were in Dame's position, that'd be what was most important to you.

    One can have multiple things be important to them and they can express one but not the other when they are specifically asked about the one, but that doesn't mean the other isn't even more important.
     
  19. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Because everything you're saying is based on your own opinions, while I'm quoting actual statements from Dame on his feelings. You're arguing that Dame might have other things on his mind, but you don't have any actual evidence that this is the case. You're talking about warm and fuzzies.
     
  20. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    You're a broken record. Now you're back to taking statements out of context.

    I've addressed all of these, Nate. None of them make the point you think they do except in your own head. They don't exclude the possibilities that he has other wants, too, that might be even bigger priorities.

    Good lord, man, read. You're not even being pedantic. This is infantile. You just quote me on stuff and respond with things that don't even make your point. You're basically spamming the board now.
     

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