Contestants #1 - speeds #2 - Chutney #3 - Kaz #4 - Duckman First Word Topics (2 Posts Each Topic) 1) The advantages and/or Disadvantages of the Latest Raptors Trade (Marion for O'Neal) 2) To be Posted after #1 is half way complete. Buy Or Sell (1 Post Each Topic) 1) TBD 2) TBD 3) TBD (First Elimination Made, With lowest points) Out of Bounds (2 Posts) 1) TBD (Second Elimination Made, With lowest points) Showdown (1 Post Each Topic) 1) TBD 2) TBD 3) TBD Closing - Winner can talk about anything, they want, make it a little long though. This is probably written more then a paragraph or more, the more info you post, the better amount of points you get. Order Of Topic 1 in First Word 1) speeds initial 2) Chutney initial 3) Kaz initial 4) Duckman initial 5) Chutney rebuttal 6) speeds rebuttal 7) Duckman rebuttal 8) Kaz rebuttal Only the Four Contestants and myself can post here, discussion by others can take place in the other thread. Chutney is now up for Topic 1. Edit: I will calculate initial points after all 4 have gone
Re: Around The Horn: Raptors Edition [Group 1] 1) The advantages and/or Disadvantages of the Latest Raptors Trade (Marion for O'Neal) Since I'm the first to go I'll set the table for everyone by explaining the situation at hand before getting to my opinion. If I understand what Bryan Colangelo was thinking, it was as follows: here are the Toronto Raptors, second last in the East, limping through what could generously be described as a hard luck season. They have Jermaine O'Neal, a player they acquired for a young but injury prone point guard, a mediocre veteran centre, and a mid-first round pick in a sensationally weak draft (quick: name a player taken after Hibbert you'd undo this trade for... anybody? Ryan Anderson? Ok, just so we have that out of the way). The thought was that he was a finishing touch--maybe not someone that would be a core player of the team going forward--a veteran big man who would take pressure off of Chris Bosh and contribute on the defensive end with blocked shots and rebounding. Someone to help us get over our first round hump. The icing was he had a large contract expiring before the 2010 summer that is the best trading chip in the NBA at next year's deadline, specifically because of desperate GM's lining up to reinvent their teams that summer. The trade also alleviated a growing concern at point guard for the Raps, where TJ Ford and Jose Calderon outgrew their partnership. The fan base of the team was overwhelmingly behind the young Spaniard. O'Neal had baggage--Colangelo knew that. He's never played a full 82-game season, and only five times out of twelve has he played 70 or more games in a campaign. He was coming directly off the worst year of his post-Portland career where he missed half the season with leg ailments and surgery and averaged a paltry 14/7 on 44% shooting. Did anyone expect him to return to form fully? I can't imagine Colangelo did. He was willing to take what O'Neal was able to give, if only for the value his contract would have. To his credit, O'Neal didn't miss much time, appearing in 41 of 55 games at just about 30-minutes a night. Maybe he didn't meet expectations in the eyes of fans who wanted him to be "twin towers" with Bosh, but the more observant NBA fan wasn't surprised. O'Neal's limited offensive game wasn't much help to the Raptors but his defensive presence was a difference maker. Occasionally he could change the dynamic of the game by blocking a dunk attempt; O'Neal may have blocked more dunks for the Raps this season than the entire team combined in the last three, but that says more about the Raps than O'Neal. Along with O'Neal came a bonus, too. Italian prodigy Andrea Bargnani clicked with the prep-to-pro big man, and chemistry between the two on the practice floor helped Bargnani's game develop. Though their partnership didn't manifest in games, Bargnani's confidence was restored after a dismal sophomore season and he busted out, restoring faith in his potential many Raptors fans had cast aside. But it wasn't enough. The Raptors were losing too much. Head coach Sam Mitchell was the first to go, and as he left, he seemingly took Chris Bosh's cheery disposition with him. The ship didn't right itself with Jay Triano at the helm and the Raps stumbled into the AS break 13 games below .500. Colangelo, never one to deny his mistakes, but also never one to make two consecutive roster moves that follow the same game plan, dealt O'Neal, along with cheap sophomore Jamario Moon and a lottery protected first-round pick to the Miami Heat for former Suns Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks, along with Banks' albatross contract. <hr style="color: rgb(209, 209, 225); background-color: rgb(209, 209, 225);" size="1"> "There is no plan. Period. "Bryan Colangelo manages this team like someone with a 60-hour a week job. Decisions are made on the fly. Mistakes are corrected quickly and haphazardly. No investment is made in scouting. First round draft picks are traded, second round draft picks sold and given away. The same player personnel who have failed to build a young core for the team--while worse franchises like the Memphis Grizzlies, Atlanta Hawks, and Minnesota Timberwolves have stockpiled--is kept around indefinitely. A team that has struggled with injuries and conditioning doesn't undergo any practical revision. Keep the old personnel around. The old coach is kept as long as possible, then fired to be replaced by another old coach. No indication is made a new coach is available, let alone ready to come in. All the while the GM is making coaching suggestions, or forcing the coaches hand--determining playing time, and even calling for substitutions or strategy changes during the game (inexcusable no matter who the GM is). When an ok team does ok in a weak division, there is much laughter and patting of backs. When the division gets stronger, the team gets weaker, and weaker, without any moves to improve their roster in the long term. The star player looks visibly exhausted and disinterested--and especially aimless. Who can blame him? "The Marion trade is the quintessential Colangelo managerial move. Again, no research, no investment of time required. Both players are former Suns Colangelo knows intimately. Like Jake Voskul and Andre Barrett and Cezary Trybanski, other Suns Colangelo recruited at various points in his Raptors tenure thus far. And With Marion becoming a free agent this summer, we are in the position where we have to re-sign him, and his agent knows that. Do you think he'll command anything less than four years, $40-million? For an aging player who relies on his athleticism? We can't let him walk, obviously. It would be humiliating for Colangelo to give up O'Neal's gild-edged contract and a first round pick for a rental player when our cap space is insignificant. So instead we are going to have to pony up an overpriced contract for a high-end utility player. What good does a $12-million role player do us exactly? Someone with an offensive game that is entirely reliant on creativity in the fast break, and garbage points. Our team takes long shots--hence, few offensive rebounds--and our point guard doesn't push the ball or take chances. How in the hell is this supposed to work? "I can sort of see why many Raps fans are excited about Marion. He comes from a winning team in Phoenix, though he is slightly removed from those glory years. A team in Phoenix that had ten times the roster balance and chemistry than ours. We don't have Steve Nash setting the pace. We don't have Amare Stoudemire crashing the lane. We don't have Raja Bell making life hell for opposing wing players. We have a gutless, confused team with no semblance of a cohesive roster and idea how to win. And Marion is going to make a difference? "Colangelo hasn't been all bad, but that's what this move is: all bad."
Re: Around The Horn: Raptors Edition [Group 1] 1) The advantages and/or Disadvantages of the Latest Raptors Trade (Marion for O'Neal) well first of all I dont know if chutney is going to reply, if he does Im sorry to have gone before you. Now to the topic, the disadvantages of this trade is just one and thats being a month over due, if this trade went through last month where raps were 3-4 games behind a playoff spot then this season wouldev been saved. The advatages of this trade are quite few, raps get financial ability this off season to make a move rather then next season. Raps get a major upgrade to their 3 spot and guys like bosh and bargs get to play their normal positions now. Marion is not very injury prone unlike JO, and Bosh sees that BC cares enough to save this season. Now for conclusion, although I dont think raps will make the playoffs, I wont count them out though because it has happend before Carter went down and raps rallied to make the playoffs by winning their very last game. Beauty of the games left are that raps are facing many teams below .500 and if they pull it off then everyone is happy. In my opinion BC has been raps best gm, but because raps Over-achieve 2 years ago BC hasnt been able to manage to pull it off again. If you break down each 3 seasons you see that on paper raps team has improved every year. For example last year raps had a very deep bench they had guys like Jose and delfino who at times took over games for raps and raps usually out scored the other team's bench. This year BC brought JO to TO for help down low and even though it didnt show in wins JO had been raps best ever Center, problem was the spacing, because JO and Bosh have similar style of games they couldnt co exsist. Also you can not forget that in the pre-season Hump was playing very well and the thinking was if JO or Bosh went down raps had Hump to help them out. Anyways im going to keep this short, raps got a very good deal they still have a chance to make the playoffs (slim but still do have a chance) and people complain about draft picks and stuff while raps have ENOUGH players to get draft picks for guys like Jawai, Will and even Hump.
Re: Around The Horn: Raptors Edition [Group 1] Your automatically losing 3 points for not paying attention. Chutney goes before you.
1) The advantages and/or Disadvantages of the Latest Raptors Trade (Marion for O'Neal) Well, I think the advantages are fairly easy to pick out. He helps this team in the immediate instance, allows us to test our "core," and gives us upcoming cap space. We've had two continually neglected pressing needs over the past two years. On the offensive end, it's been a complete lack of dribble penetration coming from our backcourt. On the defensive end, it's been an absence of perimeter defense. While not completely solving either, Shawn Marion seemingly addresses those issues. He brings an athleticism to this franchise, the likes of which we haven't seen since Vince Carter wasn't phoning it in. While unorthodox, his offensive game does in many ways jive with what the team currently needs. He can penetrate and draw fouls. His jumpshot is respectable enough that he won't force us to play 4-on-5 on every possession. He's active on the offensive glass. And he's the perfect player for a team that has continually stated its intentions to play up-tempo. Marion certainly isn't a lockdown defender, but he's a step in the right direction. Teams don't necessarily need an All-Defensive team player to be strong defensively. What they do need is five individuals committed to playing defensive together. For too long, the few Raptors players who could play defense (be it Anthony Parker or Jermaine O'Neal) were left on an island, to disastrous results. Marion can be an instrumental part of a strong defensive unit. He's active on the defensive boards, causes turnovers, can keep up with league's more athletic swingmen, and communicates well. So, it's quite clear that Marion fits this team better than Jermaine O'Neal and should provide an immediate boost. Aside from this trade's immediate benefit, the Raptors also receive the benefit of testing out their "core" of Jose Calderon, Chris Bosh, and Andrea Bargnani. Colangelo can continue to say that these players are untouchable, however it remains to be seen whether or not you can build a contending team around these three players. All three bring considerable strengths along with glaring weaknesses, and they combine to form an unorthodox trio. The two remaining members of the starting lineup, as well as your bench, would need to complement their talents (Jose's vision and shooting, Bosh's penetration and rebounding, Andrea's diverse offensive skillset and developing defense) and somehow address the weaknesses to such a trio (a lack of rebounding, dribble penetration, and perimeter defense). Marion seems best fit to test Colangelo's hypothesis (that you can build a winner around these three). He brings the strong rebounding any potential 3 will need to compensate for Andrea's lack thereof. He penetrates and can run move/get on the break, to get open for Jose (as Calderon doesn't seem to penetrate as much as most of us would like). And he adds some good perimeter defense. Additionally, this team can finally stop talking about fast-paced basketball and finally test it out. Marion is the perfect up-tempo player, and if you can't successfully run with him on your team, then you're better off putting that notion to rest. So, the addition of Marion allows us to test out features of this team that we are banking on for the future. Finally, and most obviously, Marion's contract is expiring at the end of this year. If you're in the camp of people who think Bosh is close to giving up on this team and ordering his 2010 plane ticket out of here, this move was made for you. With the team struggling so much more than Colangelo expected, it's clear that we can't just bide our time until 2010 and build a nice supporting cast around Bosh with all that cap space. The situation's gotten too bleak for us to take Bosh's new contract for granted anymore. BC's adapted and done a variation of the same plan. Fast forward the supporting cast aspect, and find someone who can be option 1b or 2 this summer. Show Bosh that the last season and a half was an abberation and that he can be successful in Toronto. Whether or not this will be successful remains to be seen. But there's no denying it has much more of a shot than the previous plan of putting all our eggs in the 2010 basket. =================================================== The disadvantages are a bit more difficult to pick out, but they're on par, if not stronger, than the advantages. Most obviously, we've given up quite a few assets and taken a bit of a cap hit to afford this sudden change of plans. Additionally, this trade signals a very real lack of direction with this team. We might have a plan, but that doesn't mean we know where we're going. I'll talk about the loss of assets first. Once again, we've had to sacrifice a first-round draft pick. That should speak for itself. All professional sports franchises are built from their talent evaluation and ability to bring in young talent through the draft. Successful teams jumpstart that success, and maintain it, with their ability to draft well. Very rarely do you see team's bypass that step (the Celtics may be one of the few). Nevermind the fact that the pick has extensive lottery protection. The fact of the matter is, we will have to give one up sooner or later (it might even be more advantageous for us to give one up sooner). We all saw how the Lamond Murray trade came back to bite us on the ass. In a year where we desperately could've used some more young talent to improve upon a surprisingly successful season, we were deprived of it. We're setting ourselves for more of the same. Furthermore, the neglected part of this trade, Marcus Banks, further muddles our post-2010 fortunes. Suddenly we're carrying a lot of dead weight past when we all wanted to hold any, and we'll be straddled with players that just don't seem to belong in our plan. More importantly though, this trade seems to signify how unstable this team's future now is. Colangelo had an extraordinary first offseason as Toronto's GM. It was not simply because he added so much talent and brought us to the playoffs for once. But it was because he did while maintaining his eye on the future. His cap management during that summer was a thing of beauty. We had a couple of intriguing young pieces surrounded by veterans conducive to their development, all of whose contracts expired at about the same time. The problem that started all this mess began with Colangelo's very next offseason. The Raptors needs to address some of their weaknesses from that season (namely rebounding, perimeter D) and maintain that cap flexibility. In an absolutely complacent and inexplicable summer, Colangelo managed to do the opposite of both. He added a skill that this team need none of (Kapono's 3 pt. shooting, Delfino's streaky scoring ability) and added contracts that lasted far longer than we wanted them to (he also kept a horrible coach, but that's another issue altogether). That season was predictably disappointing and Colangelo no longer had the luxury of building for the future with no immediate expectations. He placed those expectations upon himself for no real reason and failed to live up to them miserably. And his major moves since then have been aimed at immediate success (Jermaine O'Neal) and even more immediate success (Shawn Marion). The truth is, Colangelo's paying the price of one terribly incomprehensible offseason and every subsequent move he makes to salvage that one is making this team's future that much more hazy. Whereas we once had tremendous cap flexibility, we now have almost no margin for error. Whereas we once had several years to develop a contender, we now a little more than one season. The Shawn Marion trade places so much of our next 2-3 seasons on one or two moves this offseason. It means that Colangelo's making-it-up-as-he-goes even more than before. And it means that we're one mistake away from having to blow it all up again.
