Last night following The Lakers and Sacramento game on TNT, Charles Barkley made comments in reference to The Phoenix Sun's and their chances of success deeper in the season. I too made several points similar to his earlier this month in this very forum... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James X3:</div><div class="quote_post">Nope, their still unable to defend the elite bigmen among the NBA, when the season turns the corner and heads down the stretch that flaw will be brought out every night without question. Check the stats, they've been unable to stop high caliber power fowards amongst the league... 11/3/04 - ATLANTA HAWKS - ANTONIE WALKER: 21 PTS & 13 REBS 11/10/04 - CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - DREW GOODEN: 16 PTS & 21 REBS 11/10/04 - CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - ZYDRUNAS ILGAUSKAS: 24 PTS 11/13/04 - SACRAMENTO KINGS - CHRIS WEBBER: 28 PTS & 10 REBS 11/16/04 - DALLAS MAVERICKS - DIRK NOWITZKI: 20 PTS & 16 REBS 11/19/04 - LA LAKERS - LAMAR ODOM: 18 PTS & 15 REBS 11/21/04 - LA CLIPPERS - ELTON BRAND: 17 PTS & 9 REBS 11/22/04 - CHICAGO BULLS - EDDY CURRY: 17 PTS & 9 REBS Now lets imagine a 7 game playoff series or an extremely meaningful late season matchup where playoff postioning is on the line, how is Phoenix going to compete in slowed down, half court, grind out style games? How are the going to compete against Dallas with Dampier and Dirk on their frontline? How are they going to compete against Sacramento with Webber and Miller? How about The Rockets with Yao Ming and Juwan Howard? These would be extremely difficult matchups for Phoenix, they'd simply be unable to play small ball, and will be forced to use Jake Voskuhl as their starting center. That of course will make them weaker offensively, which in turn makes them a less dangerous squad as scoring is their biggest threat. Small ball isn't a way to succeed long term and late in the NBA season, it's been proven time and time again. Dallas has found that out several years in a row and just finally attempted to solve the problem this offseason. Trust me, view the stats one more time, do you trust Jake Voskuhl?</div> Thursday evening Barkley basically echo'd what I had stated just weeks ago. Here's basically what he had to say... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">...their built for the regular season - they'll run and gun down the floor - their like the old Dallas Mavericks..." Charles Barkley stated. "Size and rebounding is a concern for The Suns, other teams will take advantage of them in the playoffs."</div> Do you guys believe The Suns should take advantage of their time prior to the trade deadline and begin seriously taking a look at another big man to solve their problems? I think their record is currently masking their weaknesses, but I remember a Dallas Mavericks team who challenged for the best start in NBA history and were dominated by big men throughout the playoffs just a few seasons ago. The same Dallas team that didn't fix their problems last season, instead they simply enhanced their scoring ability, but were bounced out of the first round by Sacramento. This season, they finally went out and aquired defense and size after Mark Cuban had decided he'd seen enough. Perhaps their record hasn't been as impressive as it was in seasons prior, but they're a team who has the ability to go deep into the playoffs with their scoring, depth, size, and now even playing decent enough defense to shut teams down when needed.
I think at this point its a given that phx will do well in the regular season,possibly winning the pacific and getting a top seed.However, any significant success in the postseason will depend on if steven hunter emerges as their starting center and how well he does.
Pheonix realizes they need size. Hopefully they can pick up a decent 7 footer before the trade deadline. Who could we give up though?
You know...all the so called "experts" said that Seattle didn't stand a chance this year...Most picked them dead last! Remember those same experts said that Detroit didn't' stand a chance against LA. So ya....Everyone thinks they are an expert.... Seattle has beaten San Antonio TWICE with their small ball and nice shooting. Why can't the suns?
Because it is the regular season, not the playoffs. In the playoffs, it's much harder to get fast break oppurtunities and open shots. Duncan would dominate Seattle in the playoffs. The game is played so much differently in the playoffs than in the regular season.
Barkley is an ass he said last year the pistons wouldn't get out of the first round of the playoffs and said Toronto would win their division this year he is an idiot. The suns will fine they are young, athletic and competitive. Who knows how far they go but they have a young core that should be around for awhile.
The Suns are also not the best defenders, what makes it worse is that dont have much size down low. If they make the playoffs they will have problems because the playoffs are all about strong defensive play, if you can't defend you'll be going home every season without a ring. Shawn Marion is a strong defender and JJ is not a bad one, Amare isnt a bad one but he could have trouble playing everybody in the post. The Suns outscore a lot of people but they also give up a fair amount of points in oppenets averaging 97ppg against them, also the Suns are getting out rebounded by a smal margine but still these are things they will need to improve on come playoff time, or they'll be like the Kings and Mavs every season.
I agree with Charles, a little bit, I know the Suns will struggle against the big post play of KG, Duncan, and Yao. But the thing is if the Suns keep playing the way there are we won't have to face those kinds of teams until the semi-finals, or Western Finals which is way more then what was expected from this Suns team. King James, look at this: 11/3/04 - ATLANTA HAWKS - ANTONIE WALKER: 21 PTS & 13 REBS = W 11/10/04 - CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - DREW GOODEN: 16 PTS & 21 REBS = L 11/10/04 - CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - ZYDRUNAS ILGAUSKAS: 24 PTS 11/13/04 - SACRAMENTO KINGS - CHRIS WEBBER: 28 PTS & 10 REBS = L 11/16/04 - DALLAS MAVERICKS - DIRK NOWITZKI: 20 PTS & 16 REBS = W 11/19/04 - LA LAKERS - LAMAR ODOM: 18 PTS & 15 REBS = W 11/21/04 - LA CLIPPERS - ELTON BRAND: 17 PTS & 9 REBS = W 11/22/04 - CHICAGO BULLS - EDDY CURRY: 17 PTS & 9 REBS = W The point is that sure we let them have some big games but the key is that we won those games. I don't care if you let KG drop 30 on you as long as we win the game. Plus in a 7 game series, if the Suns can get out and run and possibly tire that big man down, which would make him less effective on the offensive end. Also I think the Suns management realize the thing that is keeping them back from takeing that extra step and that would be a low-post defenceive player. Somebody like Samuel Dalembert, or even Nene would be perfect for this team but the only question is that how would we get him. We would have to trade one of the 5 guys in our starting lineup that are off to one of the best start in Suns history. Why ruin that chemistry? I am all for trying to trade our 2005 Chiago Bulls pick (top 3 protected) plus one of our bench players to the Philadelphia 76ers for Sammy Dalembert, the Sixers would probably do it, they aren't using Dalembert and the Sixers may need an extra pick because they don't have one for the next 2 years. Maybe somebody like Amare, or Steven Hunter will step it up after the all-star break and become that low-post defensive player that we are missing to make a finals run. If the Suns would work hard in developing Hunter, having him use his athledic ability on the defensive end and having him come in as a spark off the bench and block some shots, it would be GREAT.
Yeah I think the Suns will go for a trade for a big man... but theyre in great shape right now so no need to worry right away. And anything can happen in the NBA so maybe they shall win it all the way they are.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Suns outscore a lot of people but they also give up a fair amount of points in oppenets averaging 97ppg against them, also the Suns are getting out rebounded by a smal margine but still these are things they will need to improve on come playoff time, or they'll be like the Kings and Mavs every season.</div> The points per game allowed is definitely the most overrated stat their is. The suns play at the fastest pace in the L.Transition baskets allows for higher scoring than halfcourt sets.The real way to rate defense is field goal percentage allowed along with steals and blocks.The suns are one of the better defensive teams. About the kings exiting the playoffs consistently lets be real.The kings have hit a major bump in the playoffs for the last 3 years.Peja coming off injury and all the crazy stuff that happened in the 02 postseason.Webber goes down in the 03 postseason.Jackson goes down in the 04 postseason.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtKing:</div><div class="quote_post"> King James, look at this: 11/3/04 - ATLANTA HAWKS - ANTONIE WALKER: 21 PTS & 13 REBS = W 11/10/04 - CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - DREW GOODEN: 16 PTS & 21 REBS = L 11/10/04 - CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - ZYDRUNAS ILGAUSKAS: 24 PTS 11/13/04 - SACRAMENTO KINGS - CHRIS WEBBER: 28 PTS & 10 REBS = L 11/16/04 - DALLAS MAVERICKS - DIRK NOWITZKI: 20 PTS & 16 REBS = W 11/19/04 - LA LAKERS - LAMAR ODOM: 18 PTS & 15 REBS = W 11/21/04 - LA CLIPPERS - ELTON BRAND: 17 PTS & 9 REBS = W 11/22/04 - CHICAGO BULLS - EDDY CURRY: 17 PTS & 9 REBS = W </div> I wasn't referring to their record over that time frame, I was pointing out their inability to defend quality post players amongst the league. In the post season the game is shrunk to half court play, most of the time the big men tend to dominate basketball games, on both ends of the floor. In the regular season The Suns are able to offset big numbers from post players because of their tremendous fastbreak and scoring ability. Although, I will promise you if they give up big numbers like these in the post season, where there won't be any easy baskets for The Suns, they'll have a very difficult time winning basketball games.
It's true, unless Steven Hunter develops into s defensive and rebounding presence at center the team is not a contender, but a very good team. They aren't a team that win multiple playoff series', their high record will get them past the first round, but till the big man arives the team won't go past the 2nd round.
What did the Olympics teach us? Ohh ya...shooters win games..not big men. Did you notice that most of the international players are not that big, but they double team well and they shoot the lights out. Everyone assumed that the pistons last year would lose because of shaq just dominating in the paint, guess what? He did but it didn't matter because they double teamed everyone else on the perimeter. The suns can do that too.... bah...i'm a suns fan i can't be biased
The problem isn't that the Suns arn't big enough...it's the fact Amare is not a center. Teams are dropping the ball to their big man for the sole purpose of getting Amare in foul trouble. That's the only way they can stop him. Seattle gave James touches...and Wiz gave Haywood touches early in the games. They arn't exactly offensive threats. lol Hunter starting would solve this entire problem. Also Chuck is way off on his comparison to past Dallas teams. Dallas was a shooting team. Suns this year are a running-fastbreak-dunking-shooting team with a low-post scorer, they block alot of shots and have excellent perimeter defenders. Dallas would just shoot, shoot, and shoot some more. If they wern't hitting...they lost. Sonics are more like the old Mavs than Phoenix is. By the way...games are decided by points scored...not number of rebounds.
International players shoot the lights out when theyre set shots from the college 3 point line.You deserve a for not realizing that the olympics so far have been dominated by the USA because we play a physical style of ball and our a big men play in the low post.Even jordan had a big man that dominated the boards.International players double team well?Dont you mean they play zone defense well?Which protected their inability to play one on one D against a team that couldnt shoot.Youre obviously someone that doesnt know alot about basketball.Wouldnt have needed to say anything if what you said wasnt so ridiculous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting GiantMidget:</div><div class="quote_post">International players shoot the lights out when theyre set shots from the college 3 point line.You deserve a for not realizing that the olympics so far have been dominated by the USA because we play a physical style of ball and our a big men play in the low post.Even jordan had a big man that dominated the boards.International players double team well?Dont you mean they play zone defense well?Which protected their inability to play one on one D against a team that couldnt shoot.Youre obviously someone that doesnt know alot about basketball.Wouldnt have needed to say anything if what you said wasnt so ridiculous.</div> What the hell are you talking about? What? I don't even know if I want to comment on what you just said. Did you even watch the Olympics? Set shots from the 3 point line?? HUH? The international players made shots all over the place. It didn't matter if they were on the college 3 point line or 10 feet beyond!! They hit their shots...PERIOD! The NBA did not send ANY shooters to the Olympic game!! Umm...who did we dominate this year? NO ONE!!! Our big men sucked it up big time!! All our NBA players were horrible!! Our shooters sucked and our big men sucked. Plain and simple. And yes the NBA did send some good big men, but even they did not dominate as well as the past Dream teams. WHY? Because our best of the best did not go!! BTW....The zone D you were talking about was called swarming our big men down low and daring our "shooters" to try and make baskets, which we couldn't. You really feel that my comment was that appalling? I am amazed!! I am waiting for your rebuttal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting phunky420:</div><div class="quote_post">What did the Olympics teach us? Ohh ya...shooters win games..not big men. Did you notice that most of the international players are not that big, but they double team well and they shoot the lights out. Everyone assumed that the pistons last year would lose because of shaq just dominating in the paint, guess what? He did but it didn't matter because they double teamed everyone else on the perimeter. The suns can do that too.... bah...i'm a suns fan i can't be biased </div> The Olympics? Are you serious? We got beat because we couldn't play defense, mainly perimeter defense. We were smoked on the drive and dish, we simply didn't play like a team. It really had nothing to do with size or shooting, it mostly came right back to our defense. The Pistons won because they HAD defense. They had the ability to slow down everybody around Shaq, knowing he'd get his stats, they simply demobilized his help. They played like a team, they played extremely sound defense, and that's why they were successful unlike the USA team. The Suns don't have the defense. They do play together as a team, but that's mainly on the offensive side of things. To say that the playoffs aren't built around bigmen is simply absurd, just look at the past champions, The Lakers, The Spurs, The Pistons. Shaq, Duncan, The Wallaces. Without a quality low post presense who can dominate on both ends of the floor, you'll simply get no where in today's post season game. The Dallas Mavericks is just another example of this theory, so I don't know why people assume The Suns will be any different.
As someone else mentioned before, so what if a Duncan or Garnett or Shaq drops 30 or even 40 points on you, if you have your starting five all in significant double figure scoring and the rest of the opposing big man's team is pretty well contained?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James X3:</div><div class="quote_post">The Olympics? Are you serious? We got beat because we couldn't play defense, mainly perimeter defense. We were smoked on the drive and dish, we simply didn't play like a team. It really had nothing to do with size or shooting, it mostly came right back to our defense. The Pistons won because they HAD defense. They had the ability to slow down everybody around Shaq, knowing he'd get his stats, they simply demobilized his help. They played like a team, they played extremely sound defense, and that's why they were successful unlike the USA team. The Suns don't have the defense. They do play together as a team, but that's mainly on the offensive side of things. To say that the playoffs aren't built around bigmen is simply absurd, just look at the past champions, The Lakers, The Spurs, The Pistons. Shaq, Duncan, The Wallaces. Without a quality low post presense who can dominate on both ends of the floor, you'll simply get no where in today's post season game. The Dallas Mavericks is just another example of this theory, so I don't know why people assume The Suns will be any different.</div> I'm sorry but D was not the only problem with the Olympic team. For example, euro teams were able to collapse on the key and cause serious problems with points in the paint. The euro teams essentially were daring the USA team to shoot from the outside. Why? The USA team could not hit an outside shot to save their life!!! Yes I do agree that better D would of "helped", but without an outside shot you are forced to "try" and make points in the paint---which USA couldn't do either. USA FGP - .459 3 point percentage - .314 Opponents - .482 3 point percentage - <font color="DarkRed">.441</font> Yes you are right that we couldn't defend the 3 point shot. However, we also couldn't shoot either. If you can outshoot your opponent, who cares about D? The Suns don't have a low post presence? What about Amare? He can drop 30 points on almost any team. Plus, he has at least 10 rebounds and a couple blocks per game....I realize he is not in the same category as Shaq, Duncan, and The Wallaces, but he's still up there. Only time will tell if the "experts" are correct about the Suns. Like i've said before, the experts have been wrong, before.
