CB4AllStar VS The Okie

Date ended: Thursday September 7thTopic: Best draft class ever?Rules: Keep it clean, No need to throw put instults and harmful remarks. You guys can just go at it unti the due date, Debate like crazy. If you both agree with the topic, See if you can prove your opponents points wrong, If you agree to the extent where there is nothing to debate about, Then say something and we will get you a new topic.Good luck.

 

Best Draft class ever? This is obvious in my opinion. The 2003 draft class is the best ever in the history of the NBA.Most people would agree with me, simply for the fact that it involved Wade, Melo, and Lebron. But that is not the case. Its not rare for a draft class to have more than one star, but it is the overall depth of the players in the draft which puts this at #1.Guys like Chris Bosh and Kirk Hinrich are players that are often overlooked. Almost any other year, those guys would have been rookie of the year candidates.Now lets take a look at the players outside of the top 10. People often forget that Josh Howard and even David West were part of the 2003 draft. Guys that weren't superstars right away, but if you paid any attention to last season you can see that those guys were absolute steals at where they fell.Clearly, the 2003 draft class is the best ever.

 

In my mind the best draft class ever is the '84 class. Here is why:Let's take a look at some of the players coming out of that class:Michael Jordan- The best player ever at this point. Michael led the Bulls to 6 championships, and probably more if he did not decide to go play baseball, or if he kept playing a little longer. Michael was one of the most dominate players ever. He is probably the greatest scorer ever (Beating Wilt because MJ played in a much tougher era). He had a money mid-range jumper, he was unstoppable driving through the lane. He was one of the best defenders ever to go along with that, and was also a solid rebounder, and passer, and a great stealer. Let's take a look at some stats to prove my point.Career averages of 30.1 ppg (best ever), 6 rpg, 4 apg, 2.3 spg, .80 bpg, on .50 percent shooting. Those are simply unbelievable averages for a guard. His career highs are 69 points, 18 Rebounds (He did that twice), 17 assists, 10 steals. That is phenomanal. Let's look at his playoff stats now. He averaged 33 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 2.1 spg, and .9 bpg. So we know he is the greatest player ever because he even upped those already unbelievable numbers in playoff games. Michael was a 5 time MVP, (in possibly the best era ever), 10 Time all First team, DPOY in '85, 9 time All Defensive Team, 14 Time all Star, and a 6 time Finals MVP (all six chamionships).Bottom Line: Jordan is the greatest player to ever pick up a basketball. No questions asked.Hakeem Olajuwon-Hakeem is another one of the greatest players to ever play, and certainly atleast a top 8 player of all time. Hakeem was dominant inside. He had a great array of post moves, and jukes and such. He was also very athletic which helped him score easier. He also led the Rockets to back-to-back Championships in '94, and '95 respectively. Hakeem is also one of the greatest defensive players of all time. He was great at blocking shots, and was a force inside. He was also a top notch rebounder, and definately a top 4 Center of all time. Here are some of his stats and honors:He has career averages of 22 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 bpg (OMG!), 1.7 spg on .512 percent shooting. And his averages would have been even higher if he had retired sooner and had not stretched his career out to 18 seasons. His playoff averages are 26 ppg, 11 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.7 spg on .530 shooting. So Hakeem is another player that simply played great in the playoffs. His career highs are 52 points, 25 rebounds (5 times!), 12 assists, 12 blocks (2 times), 8 steals. He even got a quadruple-double one night. He is one of the few to ever achieve that. His honors include 1 MVP award, 2 time DPOY winner, 6 time All NBA First team, and a 12 Time All star.Bottom Line: Hakeem is atleast top 7 player of all time, and certainly one of the best to ever play the game.John Stockton-John Stockton is one of the greatest pg's to ever play, and also one of the greatest PLAYERS to NEVER win an NBA title. John was an unbelievable passing point, and was simply unbelievable running an offense. He was also the greatest stealer ever (leads all NBA players ever with 3, 265 steals all time), and a great defender. He was also very good at using his quickness to his advantage, and was also a great shooter, and a 17 ppg scorer in his prime. He and Malone anchored the Jazz for more than a decade, and if it weren't for MJ in his prime, and also Showtime, they would have won atleast 1 NBA title. Stockton set a record for averaging 14 apg in a season! He also got over 10 apg in a season 10 times! He is also a top notch defender. He is probably a top 10 player to ever play the game.His career averages are 13 ppg, 10.5 apg, 2.7 rpg, 2.2 spg, on an amazing .515 percent shooting. His playoff averages are 13 ppg, 10 apg, 2.5 rpg, 1.9 spg, on 47% shooting. He has career highs of 34 points, 28 assists, (Holy crap!), 9 rpg (5 times), 9 steals and 3 blocks (4 times). His honors include being a two time All First Time (played in the same time as Magic), 6 time All Second Team, 3 Time All Third Team, 5 time All-Defensive Team, and a 10 Time All Star.Bottom Line: Stockton is the 2nd greatest pg to ever play, and a top 10 NBA player, ever.Charles Barkley-Charles was one of the greatest players in the 80s. He was a top notch rebounder, great defender, he had good range and he had a very nice post game. He really put up some great numbers and averaged 22 and 12 for his career. He is undersized for a big at 66, but was still one of the best rebounders of his time. He was an MVP in 1993, he made all first team 5 times, all second team another 5 times, and slipped to 3rd time once. He is also an 11 time all star and named as one of the 50 greatest players.Bottom Line: Charles is also one of the best players ever, and caps off a draft class with 4 of the 50 greatest players in it.Other Notable Players:Sam Bowie: Considered a bust because he was picked before Jordan, but he actually had a decent career, with lifetime averages of 11 and 7.Sam Perkins: Had a solid career, mainly playing PF for the Mavs. Lifetime averages of 12 and 6.Alvin Robertson: Had very good days playing guard for the Spurs. He even averaged 20 ppg one year. He was a great stealer too, pick pocketing the ball 2100+ times and amounted an impressive 301 steals one year. Has lifetime averages of 14, 4, and 4.Otis Thorpe: Otis had a very impressive career. His career averages dont fully show how good he was in his prime. He averaged 21 ppg one year, and 17 ppg 6 times in a row. He had some great years with the Kings and Rockets. He decided to play until 2001, which makes his career stats of 14 and 8 seem more impressive.Kevin Willis: From seeing him play a couple years ago, you may think this guy is a stiff. But for his career, that is simply not the case. He had some great years in Atlanta, even averaging 19 and 12 one year. He kept playing until 2004, so his career averages dont look very impressive, but he was an excellent player in his prime.Jay Humphries: Averaged up to 15 ppg for Milwaukee. Career averages of 11.1 ppg and 5.5 apg. He was a skilled point who averages up to 7 apg one year.Vern Fleming: Spent all but one year of his career with the Pacers. Career averages of 11 ppg, 3 rpg, and 4.4 apg.Tony Campbell: Had a pretty quiet career until one season where he exploded for 23 ppg and 5.5 rpg. Both were career highs by far. I put him on for that spectacular season. He has career averages of 11 and 3.Ron Anderson: Had one very solid 16 ppg year for the Sixers. Maintained career averages of 11 ppg and 3.5 rpg Jerome Kersey: Had some great years for the Trail Blazers. Had one 19 ppg, 8 rpg season. Maintains career averages of 10 and 5.5So as you can see, the 84 draft features 4 of the greatest players ever, and also some other solid players to add onto that. In my eyes, this is simply the best class ever because it features the best player ever, a dominant defensive and offensive mastermind in The Dream, Hakeem Olauwon, one of the greatest pg's and passing pg's ever, and a griddy, tough, PF with a nose for the ball and a great scorer.

You obviously don't know much about NBA History if you think that the '03 class is the best ever. You are out of your mind if you think Carmelo, Bosh, Wade, and Lebron are better than Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, and John Stockton.

You obviously are overlooking the '84 draft. I dont think anyone would agree with you that the '03 draft is better that has even a bit of knowledge of the NBA's past.

Alright, let me take a look outside the top 10 of the '84 draft. John Stockton, Kevin Willis, Vern Fleming, Tony Campbell, Ron Anderson, and Jerome Kersey. Please..don't even bring up players after the 10th pick.

This is one of the most ignorant statements Ive ever encountered. Please, do some research on other drafts before you say 2003 is clearly the best. '84 is alot better than '03 in my opinion and in most others. I already mentioned why so I don't think I have to bring that up again.By the way, one of the major chinks in your first post is that you hardly went into depth about the players in the '03 draft or why it was the best.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 2 2006, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You obviously don't know much about NBA History if you think that the '03 class is the best ever. You are out of your mind if you think Carmelo, Bosh, Wade, and Lebron are better than Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, and John Stockton.</div> I dont think I ever said that Lebron, Wade, Bosh and Carmello are better than those guys. If I did, please show me cause I don't remember it. Who knows, maybe there is a chance that they could be better. Lebron is only 21 years old, and he is averaged 31 points a game last season, its obvious Lebron hasn't even hit his prime yet, so hes only going to get better. I'm not here to talk about how Lebron is going to be better than Michael, because no one will. As for the other 3, Carmello averaged 26 a game last year, Wade 27, Bosh 22 and 9. At this point, as a group these 4 don't match up with the top 4 in 84 draft, but keep in mind they are only in their 3rd year in the league. They are most likely not going to be better, but the difference is not that big.But once we get passed the top four players in each draft, is where the '03 class takes the cake.Josh Howard: 15 points and 6 boards last year.Kirk Hinrich: 16 and 6 assistsDavid West: 17 and 7Boris Diaw: 13 and 7Chris Kaman: 12 and 9Marquis Daniels: 10, 4 and 3 coming off the benchLuke Ridnour: 12 and 7 assistsLeandro Barbosa: 13, 3 and 3 backing up the MVPT.J. Ford: 12 and 6 coming off an injured seasonKyle Korver: 12 3 and 2 None of these guys have even hit their prime yet, so get ready to watch these numbers grow

 

Uh, you said that most people would agree with you simply because of Lebron, Melo, and Wade, which means that you thought that those three players make the '03 class better than any other class. That's where you are wrong. John Stockton, Hakeem, Barkley, and Jordan>>>>>>>those 3 by far.

Lebron will never be better than Jordan. I'm sorry, but Lebron doesnt come close to Jordan's defense, or anything else besides long range shooting of Jordan's game. And by the way, if you want to shove Lebron's 31 points in my face, Jordan scored 37 ppg in his 3rd season. Touche.

That group will never be better than the '84 big four, thank you very much.

Let's take a look at some of the players I listed in their 3rd seasons.Alvin Robertson: 18, 5, 5Otis Thrope: 19 ppg, 10 rpgSam Perkins: 15 ppg, 8 rpgSam Bowie: 16 ppg, 7 rpgKevin Willis: 16 ppg, 10.5 rpgJay Humphries: 11 ppg, 8 apg, 3 rpgVern Fleming: 12 ppg, 6 apg, 4 rpgMichael Cage: 16 ppg, 11.5 rpgRon Anderson: 10 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apgJerome Kersey: 12 ppg, 6 rpg, 2 apgSo as you can see, the '84 depth is even better than the depth you listed. So how does the '03 draft take the cake after you get past the top 4 players when the '84 draft is EVEN BETTER past the top 4 players. Got you there, buddy.

 

Alright, it's September 7th. Judges?

 

I'm not voting, but CB4 made it so that this shouldn't even be in the contest thread. Easy pickup for CB4.

 

Umm...Clear winner is CB4. He won basically all the debate points, and TheOkie didn't reply....so.

 

Crap i forgot about this....2003 is better because i say so... that should be all the debate needed

 

But it's not, so your basically eliminated.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheOkie @ Sep 7 2006, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Crap i forgot about this....2003 is better because i say so... that should be all the debate needed</div>The Okie your an idiot shutup. You just basically had every point you made by cb4 proved wrong and you made yourself look like an idiot. The '03 draft isn't even a top 3. the '96 and '99 draft were both better. I'm not even going to bother listing them because anyone who knows basketball knows those drafts were filled with more talent than the '03 draft.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Okie your an idiot shutup. You just basically had every point you made by cb4 proved wrong and you made yourself look like an idiot. The '03 draft isn't even a top 3. the '96 and '99 draft were both better. I'm not even going to bother listing them because anyone who knows basketball knows those drafts were filled with more talent than the '03 draft.</div>Dude, F*ck off man. He's just joking around. It was a good debate man, I had fun.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, F*ck off man. He's just joking around. It was a good debate man, I had fun.</div>Ok sorry I didn't know that and I was trying to prove a point. It's not exactly easy to be able to tell if someone is joking or not on the internet and I thought he was serious. BTW no offense or anything but why do you always speak for people? Since when did you get asked in this. Did the Okie tell you to speak for him? I doubt it.

 

No, I just replied because you were being a dickhead to him.

 

The '03 draft does have more stars but the '99 draft is arguably better depth wise...Elton BrandRon ArtestBaron DavisSteve FrancisLamar Odom Rip HamiltonWally SzczerbiakManu GinobliShawn MarionAndre MillerJason TerryCory MaggetteAndrei KirilenkoJames PoseyBTW once again I was only being a dickhead because I thought he was serious. If I knew he wasn't kidding do you really think i would take that statement seriously? Also why did you edit the post? Because you realized what I said is debatable?

 

And the '03 class has Lebron, Dwade, Melo, Bosh, Hinrich, Josh Howard, Boris Diaw, and others.The '99 draft has no superstars, and the '04 draft has two players who already are superstars, and 2 more potential superstars. I dont care about depth. Thats why I would rank it as a better class.

 

Yes I realize there isn't many superstars in that draft but I'm pretty sure Brand has become one. Plus this draft is filled with all star calibur players and great role players and second options. That's why I think it's so good.w/e though I agree the '99 draft isn't clearly better but it is arguable. I'm done though. I shouldn't be posting in here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Sep 8 2006, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes I realize there isn't many superstars in that draft but I'm pretty sure Brand has become one. Plus this draft is filled with all star calibur players and great role players and second options. That's why I think it's so good.</div>No, he has not. Youre idea of a superstar is too generic. Superstars are select few like Kobe, AI, Tmac, DWade, Lebron, KG, TD, maybe Dirk..BTW: There has only been 1 judge so far. Come on guys.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, he has not. Youre idea of a superstar is too generic. Superstars are select few like Kobe, AI, Tmac, DWade, Lebron, KG, TD, maybe Dirk..BTW: There has only been 1 judge so far. Come on guys.</div>Ok this is my last response? If Brand isn't a super star why do you call Bosh one?

 

I did, but then I agreed that Bosh is not a superstar. I was like you. My ranking of a superstar was too easy-going. Brand and Bosh are both great players, but not superstars.BTW, Josh Howard, Hinrich, Kaman, and Ford will all be great players, to go along with the 4 greats.