Could White Stuff on Mars Be Ice or Salt?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by pegs, Jun 17, 2008.

  1. pegs

    pegs My future wife.

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>LOS ANGELES (June 16) - Is the white stuff in the Martian soil ice or salt?

    That is the question bedeviling scientists in the three weeks since the Phoenix lander began digging into Mars' north pole region to study whether the arctic could be habitable.

    Shallow trenches excavated by the lander's backhoe-like robotic arm have turned up specks and at times even stripes of mysterious white material mixed in with the clumpy, reddish dirt.

    Phoenix merged two previously dug trenches over the weekend into a single pit measuring a little over a foot (30 centimeters) long and 3 inches (7.5 centimeters) deep. The new trench was excavated at the edge of a polygon-shaped pattern in the ground that may have been formed by the seasonal melting of underground ice.

    New photos showed the exposed bright substance present only in the top part of the trench, suggesting it's not uniform throughout the excavation site. Phoenix will take images of the trench dubbed "Dodo-Goldilocks" over the next few days to record any changes. If it's ice, scientists expect it to sublimate - or go from solid to gas, bypassing the liquid stage - when exposed to the sun because of the planet's frigid temperatures and low atmospheric pressure.

    "We think it's ice. But again, until we can see it disappear ... we're not guaranteed yet," mission scientist Ray Arvidson of Washington University in St. Louis said Monday.

    Even if it's not ice, the discovery of salt would also be significant because it's normally formed when water evaporates in the soil.

    Preliminary results from a bake-and-sniff experiment at low temperatures failed to turn up any trace of water or ice in the scoopful of soil that was delivered to the lander's test oven last week. Scientists planned to heat the soil again this week to up to 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit (982.22 Celsius), said William Boynton of the University of Arizona in Tucson.

    Phoenix landed in the Martian arctic plains on May 25 on a three-month, $420 million mission to study whether the polar environment could be favorable for primitive life to emerge. The lander's main job is to dig into an ice layer believed to exist a few inches from the surface.

    The project is led by the University of Arizona and managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The lander was built by Lockheed Martin Corp.

    On the Net:

    Phoenix Mars: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/index.php</div>

    link

    [​IMG]

    Wow, this could be interesting. This would definitely be a huge discovery.

    On second thought, what if it's transformers?? [​IMG]
     
  2. Mamba

    Mamba The King is Back Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Some astronaut blew his load, that's all.
     
  3. AEM

    AEM Gesundheit

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    ^ An alien astronaut? I guess von Daniken could be right... [​IMG]
     
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Not sure it's NaCl salt. It could be any one of a number of other kinds of salts. Many (if not all) are white in color.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry)

    Salts are formed by a chemical reaction between:

    * A base and an acid, e.g. NH3 + HCl → NH4Cl.

    * A metal and an acid, e.g. Mg + H2SO4 → MgSO4 + H2.

    * A base and an acid anhydride, e.g. 2 NaOH + Cl2O → 2 NaClO + H2O

    * An acid and an basic anhydride, e.g. 2 HNO3 + Na2O → 2 NaNO3 + H2O

    * Salts can also form if solutions of different salts are mixed, their ions recombine, and the new salt is insoluble and precipitates (see: solubility equilibrium), for example:

    Pb(NO3)2(aq) + Na2SO4(aq) → PbSO4(s) + NaNO3(aq)
     
  5. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    ^^^ The first two (Mg+... / 2 NaOH+...) involve acids, which is probably more consistent with what we see on other planets (H2SO4 is a major part of Venus' atmosphere, for example).
     
  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/a...0,4714208.story

    No signs of water yet from Mars lander

    Scientists think Phoenix's robotic arm just needs to dig a little deeper. 'This could be the tip of the iceberg,' one says.
    By John Johnson Jr.
    Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

    June 17, 2008

    In its first chemical analysis of soil from Mars' northern plains, NASA's Phoenix lander has turned up no evidence of water, scientists said Monday.

    Still, researchers remained confident that the craft is in the right place to uncover veins of ice believed to lie only inches beneath the surface.

    A soil sample was cooked twice in one of Phoenix's eight ovens over the last few days, according to William Boynton, lead scientist for the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer, or TEGA. The first test reached 95 degrees, the second 350 degrees.

    "Had there been any ice, it would have melted," Boynton said. "We saw no water in the soil whatsoever."

    The instrument detected carbon dioxide, hardly a surprise since the thin Martian atmosphere is primarily made up of CO2.

    The goal of the $420-million Phoenix mission is to find out whether Mars is, or ever was, suitable for rudimentary life forms. Phoenix landed near Mars' north pole May 25.

    The science team at the University of Arizona and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in La Cañada Flintridge were not disappointed by the failure to turn up water on the first test sample. Phoenix's nearly 8-foot-long robotic arm has only dug 2 to 3 inches into the soil, at a region named Dodo-Goldilocks. The ice layer, they said, is probably farther down.

    The latest images of the trench from which the soil was taken show light-toned material that the scientists think could be ice protruding from the trench's side.

    "It looks like we clipped the edge of the top of a polygon," said Ray Arvidson, the lead scientist for the lander's robotic arm.

    The polygonal land forms -- small mounds bounded by shallow trenches -- are similar to features that scientists have seen in the Arctic on Earth caused by subsurface ice.

    "This could be the tip of the iceberg," Arvidson said.

    The science team will next turn its attention to a nearby region called Wonderland, where it thinks the ice layer is close to the surface.

    The TEGA ovens are designed to reach 1,800 degrees, because different elements burn off at different temperatures. Tests over the next few weeks should help uncover any water bound up with the minerals, if not water itself, scientists said.

    NASA's twin Mars rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, have found evidence that water was once plentiful in the form of standing lakes and streams on Mars' surface.

    Scientists now hope to find and test water to help determine whether present-day Mars could be habitable.

    The last NASA landers to test for habitability on Mars were the twin Viking probes, which landed in 1976. Neither found any organic molecules that would be a good indicator of Mars' suitability for life.

    That caused planetary scientists to virtually abandon Mars for two decades, until a new generation of scientists proposed that life-sustaining conditions might be found underground at the poles.

    Scientists were encouraged by findings from the gamma ray spectrometer on the orbiting Mars Odyssey spacecraft, which in 2002 detected a large concentration of hydrogen in the top few feet of soil at the pole. Scientists believed that indicated vast quantities of ice underground.
     
  7. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    ^^^ I think they need to dig deeper, too. They've already dug themselves into a pretty deep hole assuring us there's water on Mars.

    (More of my crusade against junk science and scientists)
     
  8. Lavalamp

    Lavalamp Member

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    John Stuart thinks its coke.
     
  9. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    It's mindboggling. They landed this robot right on the polar "ice cap" - do you really have to dig below the white stuff to get to the ice?

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Lavalamp

    Lavalamp Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Jun 17 2008, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not sure it's NaCl salt. It could be any one of a number of other kinds of salts. Many (if not all) are white in color.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry)

    Salts are formed by a chemical reaction between:

    * A base and an acid, e.g. NH3 + HCl ��' NH4Cl.

    * A metal and an acid, e.g. Mg + H2SO4 ��' MgSO4 + H2.

    * A base and an acid anhydride, e.g. 2 NaOH + Cl2O ��' 2 NaClO + H2O

    * An acid and an basic anhydride, e.g. 2 HNO3 + Na2O ��' 2 NaNO3 + H2O

    * Salts can also form if solutions of different salts are mixed, their ions recombine, and the new salt is insoluble and precipitates (see: solubility equilibrium), for example:

    Pb(NO3)2(aq) + Na2SO4(aq) ��' PbSO4(s) + NaNO3(aq)</div>
    Not all salts are white in colour. From the same article that you quoted.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wikipedia)</div><div class='quotemain'>Salts exist in all different colors, e.g. yellow (sodium chromate), orange (potassium dichromate), red (mercury sulfide), mauve (cobalt chloride hexahydrate), blue (copper sulfate pentahydrate, ferric hexacyanoferrate), green (nickel oxide), colorless (magnesium sulfate), white, and black (manganese dioxide). Most minerals and inorganic pigments as well as many synthetic organic dyes are salts.</div>
     

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