Marcus Camby, one of the best two players on the 2007-08 Nuggets, had the Nuggets back and made them respectable while they indulged in too much high speed street ball with the likes of JR Smith, Allen Iverson, and Carmelo Anthony. Camby kept the level of craziness within reason, and the Nuggets will be lost without him. Part of one of the most talented starting five in history, Marcus Camby is one of the best blockers, rebounders, and all around defensive players of all time. He won the 2007 Defensive Player of the Year Award. Thanks for holding down the fort MC. In America, we all come, and then we all have to go every once in a while. One. I'm emailing this to Clippers HQ. Raptors 1 Studios Presents Marcus Camby: The Good Old Days
Here are excerpts from an interesting article about the Clippers. The whole article is at the source link. You can see that the Nuggets, eager to cut payroll, tried to get a first rounder for Camby, but were told by the Clippers to take a hike. The Denver owner must have then ordered the Denver front office to give away Camby for basically nothing! Ouch! And now there are places on the internet I hardly dare go to right now, for fear of offending my friends in Nuggets Land. Because the majority of Nuggets Land has rallied behind the management of the Nuggets on this, which was easy for them, because many of them have always hated Camby's style. The fact I count them as friends means I can't go there and insult them by pointing out how insane it was to give away Camby. You see what a nice guy I am? Maybe too nice. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The Los Angeles Clippers introduced forward/center Marcus Camby on Monday at STAPLES Center. Acquired from the Denver Nuggets for a conditional second-round pick, Camby was still infuriated with what felt like a betrayal by his former team. Meanwhile, the Clippers are very excited about their prospects this coming season. "We have bigs that have mobility. We have bigs that block shots and rebound. We've got a big in Chris Kaman who can score in the post against anybody," said Coach Mike Dunleavy. "Marcus and Chris, I think they fit very well together." In addition to the Camby acquisition, the Clippers have recently added former All-Star Baron Davis, rookie shooting guard Eric Gordon and have an offer sheet out to Golden State Warriors' forward/guard Kelenna Azubuike. The Clippers didn't dwell long on the loss of marquee forwards Elton Brand and Corey Maggette, making quick use of their cap room to bring in two well-established veterans in Camby and Davis. After Davis followed through on his promise to sign with the club, LA called the Nuggets to see if Camby was available. "When you have a lot of cap space, the first thing you do is you hit teams with luxury tax situations. If you'd like some cap relief, we can talk," said Dunleavy. "They countered with another player, a first round pick, all this stuff. We told them we had no interest - just Camby." LA moved on and were on the verge of signing an expensive restricted free agent to an offer sheet (thought to be Atlanta forward Josh Smith, although unconfirmed.) "We took one more shot at Denver to see. We let them know we're pulling the trigger tomorrow," said Dunleavy of last week's dealings. "They came back and said they would do it. I've got a bad knee but I jumped pretty high when I heard that news." The plan is to start Camby at power forward alongside Kaman at center. According to the coach, the starting lineup projects to include guard Cuttino Mobley, forward Al Thornton and Davis. "I'm not here to replace Elton Brand. Elton is a terrific ballplayer," said Camby. "We're two different types of players. He does great things that I can't do. I do some things that he possibly can't do. I just want to make things work. "We have a lot of guys that can put the ball in the basket. I'm not coming here to try and steal any shots. I'm just going to do what I do: Pass the ball, play solid defense and be accountable on and off the court." Camby fits their present needs and has a cap friendly contract that expires before the summer of 2010. The team believes they can be competitive for at least the next two seasons - but it doesn't hurt to have spending power the year LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Amare Stoudemire and host of other high level players become unrestricted free agents. The Clipper feel Camby is the perfect fit. "The leadership he brings - his presence on the court: the best defensive player in the league, top rebounder, top shot blocker, his playoff experience and maturity," extolled Roeser. "He's been in the playoffs eight of his 12 years. Between Baron Davis and Marcus Camby you have 110 games of playoff experience. Our goal is to get back in the playoffs and be competing and we wanted players with experience doing just that." It's easy to remember a more spendthrift Clipper organization of the past few decades but in recent years, owner Donald Sterling has shown a willingness to invest in the team's future. To that end, the Clippers are confident they have a shot at one of the eight playoff seeds in the Western Conference. "[Baron's] happy about being here. I'm happy about being here," said Camby. "With that mix between youth and veteran leadership I think this team can definitely go far - but with me saying that we all know we have a lot of hard work to do and that starts day one of training camp." 'Hopefully it means we're a great rebounding, shot blocking team which allows a point guard like Baron Davis to get more possessions and to be able to attack and get out in the open court - and we've got some guys who can fly," said Dunleavy. "Kaman is one of the faster big men in the league- Marcus is very fleet of foot. I think it just bodes well for or team - our chemistry, offensively, defensively I think he's just a great fit for our team."</div> Full Article--Source
From the LA Times, Bill Dwyre reports on the offloading of Marcus Camby. Most but not all of the article is here; the whole thing is at the link. My favorite parts are highlighted. The Nuggets took not only Camby but all of their players and fans for a ride, by spending mega bucks and then saying it was all a gigantic mistake. I'm still going to be ticked off about this several years from now. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Nuggets put a chip on Marcus Camby's shoulder Camby is still upset by the terms of the deal that sent him from Denver to the Clippers for almost nothing. Bill Dwyre July 22, 2008 The newest Clipper appears to be a straight shooter, which is always desirable for a pro basketball player. Monday afternoon, at a news conference, Marcus Camby stood tall, all 6 feet 11, in his bright red vest. He looked everybody in the eye and didn't duck the hard stuff. Yes, he was personally offended by how the Denver Nuggets handled his trade. Yes, he had told the Denver media he was shocked and insulted when told of it. No misquotes there. And yes, while he understands that the NBA is a business, he will take a while to recover from being abruptly dispatched from a city that had become his home and a team that had become his family. Especially upsetting to Camby were the terms. In return for a player who was their center and among the leading shot-blockers and defensive forces in the league -- defensive player of the year in 2006-07 -- Denver got the option of exchanging second-round draft picks with the Clippers in 2010. That meant several things: * That Denver, with 50 wins last year and a quick 4-0 exit to the Lakers in the first round of the playoffs, is banking on Camby making the Clippers worse in the next two seasons, the last two on his contract. The lower the Clippers sink in the standings, the better Denver's draft choice becomes. * That even then, Denver couldn't have cared too deeply about the deal because, as Camby said, about the usual future of second-round picks, "They'll probably get somebody who won't make the team, anyway." * That, after 12 years in the league, the Nuggets disrespected his value. The question was put to him directly. Did he think they gave him away for nothing? He took a deep breath and answered: "Yes." * That, like most things in life and everything in the NBA, this was all about money. The anatomy of the deal was actually quite quick and easy, except for the pain it caused Camby. Coach Mike Dunleavy was working on a deal for Atlanta's Josh Smith, a 6-foot-9 forward and restricted free agent. The restricted part means that, were the Clippers to tender an offer, Atlanta could -- and in this case probably would -- match it. At the same time, there were talks with the Nuggets about Camby, the acquisition of whom made Dunleavy giddy. "When we heard the deal was done," he said, "I jumped pretty high, and I've got a bad knee." Denver was looking for salary-cap space, meaning they had to unload something costly, and Camby, at age 34, was it. Denver gained roughly $40 million worth of cap space when he left. The Clippers told the Nuggets they were about to tender the offer to Smith and once they did, their interest in helping Denver's financial ledger would diminish greatly. Hours later, Denver said goodbye to Camby and hello to new fiscal flexibility. That part is understandable to Camby. "I know this is a business," he said. "I've been traded twice before. I've got a thick skin. I played in New York. Your skin can't get any thicker than that." The part he didn't like, in addition to terms of the trade that made it look to the guy on the street as if they let him go for a Snickers bar, was how it was handled. "Nobody called, nobody said anything," he said. "The day before I was told, I was with plenty of team people who could have given me a heads-up. I found out when my agent called me." The Clippers, of course, consider this was a great acquisition. Camby averaged 13.1 rebounds and 3.6 blocks a game last season, along with 9.1 points on a team that had more gunners than a field full of duck hunters. Dunleavy said Camby will be the power forward alongside incumbent center, and strong rebounder, Chris Kaman. Camby is especially adept at helping out and clogging the middle on defense, a skill born of necessity on the Nuggets, a team that features several players who have never guarded anything closely except their wallets. We won't name names, but two of them are spelled Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony. <span style="color:#FF0000">Dunleavy laughed when Camby talked about his former teammates, how much he will miss them and how much they said they'd miss him. "They should miss him," the coach said. "He saved their [butts] every night." </span> Now, the only question remaining is whether he can do the same for the Clippers.</div> Nice one, Dunleavy, lol. Source
Marcus Camby was one of the biggest problems with the Nuggets. His DPOY award is one of the biggest jokes in the history of the award.
Two more quick but important observations: 1. I haven't forgotten about Mr. Karl being also responsible for the Nuggets raising the white flag. Had the Nuggets won a playoff series, as they could have and should have, then I very much doubt that Mr. Kroenke and company would have accepted the Clippers offer of a bag of chips for Marcus Camby. And the Nuggets one year payroll drop would probably have been under that 8-10% ruination level. When all was said and done, it took the combination of Karl's bad coaching and Kroenke's financial cut and run to sink the Nuggets powerful effort to become a real contender in the NBA. One of them without the other would not have been enough to ruin the project. It seems very likely that the front office was caught in the middle between the two men making the big mistakes. 2. The Clippers are playing Camby at PF, which is smart for them, and which is a reminder of how badly the Nuggets were hurt by the unavailability of Nene, a genuine post player. As I said frequently in my reports, Camby at center without a post player at PF is a potential defensive and/or a potential offensive problem. But Camby with a post playing PF is money. Camby with Nene would have been roughly the same type of combo that Kaman and Camby will be in LA. But even without Nene, Camby was clearly neither the offensive nor the defensive liability that his critics claim he was, because the Nuggets were the fastest pace team, and Camby's occasional point guard tendencies, and his relative reluctance to get alot of finishes at the hoop were not big offensive problems for the Nuggets, as several other key players were not shy about taking it to the rim: Iverson, Anthony, Smith, Martin, and Kleiza especially. Indeed, one of the problems with the Nuggets offense was that overall they took it to the rim too much, which made them relatively easy to defend. Defensively, the gripes about Camby are mostly putting style above substance, which is almost always a mistake to me. Generally, those claiming Camby was not truly a great defensive player are going to be those preferring the type of defender who camps out in the paint and simply blocks with his body, fouls, and intimidates his way to being a defensive force. Camby committed very, very few fouls, whereas the style that Camby's critics want requires for success that the refs assist by letting a lot of fouls go, something which does not happen every game. In other words, Camby's style works regardless of how the refs are calling the game, whereas the style his critics want works only if the refs let some fouls go uncalled. Also, the type of defender Camby's critics want may be a little better against some centers and power forwards than is Camby, but Camby's style is far better against high scoring guards coming into the paint.
Camby was a defensive problem and you haven't come to describing why with your strawmen. Camby refused to rotate out of his position which made the already poor Nuggets perimeter defenders look worse than they really were. Opposing teams would always rotate the ball around after a kick out from the post because they knew the Nuggets would breakdown defensively attempting to make up for Camby not rotating. Additionally, Camby would let people drive past him to go for the block and he would give up his man too quickly to go for the block which either left his man open or Kenyon's or Melo's man open as they rotated over to guard Camby's open that was closer to the basket.
The 2007-08 Nuggets were the 10th best defense in the NBA ranked by defensive efficiency, which is number of points given up per 100 possessions. This is defense adjusted for pace. The Nuggets, to be exact, gave up 107.5 points per 100 possessions. If you are right about MC, they will give up at least slightly fewer points in the new season, assuming that whoever replaces Camby has a more common style for a center, which is very likely. If I'm right, the Nuggets will give up more points per 100 possessions, and will be lower than the 10th best defense adjusted for pace. So we shall see when the season comes. But we might not be able to tell for sure if the Nuggets make big changes in their overall style, in their pace, or if one or more players are a lot better or a lot worse defensively than last year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tremaine @ Jul 23 2008, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The 2007-08 Nuggets were the 10th best defense in the NBA ranked by defensive efficiency, which is number of points given up per 100 possessions. This is defense adjusted for pace. The Nuggets, to be exact, gave up 107.5 points per 100 possessions. If you are right about MC, they will give up at least slightly fewer points in the new season, assuming that whoever replaces Camby has a more common style for a center, which is very likely. If I'm right, the Nuggets will give up more points per 100 possessions, and will be lower than the 10th best defense adjusted for pace. So we shall see when the season comes.</div> While I'm fully aware of the Nuggets defensive efficiency ranking (a number that got worse over the season too as Marcus began sucking more and more) and what the stats measures and means, it isn't that simple. There are far too many variables in place whatever the change is all on the removal of Marcus Camby. For example if Chucky Atkins plays a lot of minutes, he will negatively impact the defense. EDIT: I see that you added a qualifier to your post as I was replying
I loved Camby here. I don't see how the Defensive player of the year is the root of the Nuggets defensive problems. He was a shotblocker and a mad rebounder. The collective effort of the entire team made them suck on defense, not one players rotation problems. Too bad we had to see him go like he did.
Defensive Efficiency 2007-08 Nuggets 107.5 10th Clippers 110.8 19th 2008-09??? I won't forget to revive this topic. And we can also compare Kaman/Camby to ???/K-mart with the +/-, compare the front courts as a whole, and compare the Camby alone +/- to the Hunter or ? +/- alone. It's going to be interesting to see which wins out in this case: style or production as shown by statistics (substance)? The Camby critics can not have it both ways. If they are really serious about Camby being overrated, then his replacement and KMart should be at least a little better than Kaman/Camby. And certainly the Hunter or ??? alone +/- should be better than the Camby alone +/- if the Camby critics are right. Again, I will not forget to bring this topic back when this can be decided.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tremaine @ Jul 23 2008, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Defensive Efficiency 2007-08 Nuggets 107.5 10th Clippers 110.8 19th 2008-09“? I won't forget to revive this topic. And we can also compare Kaman/Camby to “?/K-mart with the +/-, compare the front courts as a whole, and compare the Camby alone +/- to the Hunter or ? +/- alone. It's going to be interesting to see which wins out in this case: style or production as shown by statistics (substance)? The Camby critics can not have it both ways. If they are really serious about Camby being overrated, then his replacement and KMart should be at least a little better than Kaman/Camby. And certainly the Hunter or “? alone +/- should be better than the Camby alone +/- if the Camby critics are right. Again, I will not forget to bring this topic back when this can be decided.</div> The Clippers are essentially a brand new team compared to last season. There is no straight line comparison between the two. The entire point of the criticism is that the Camby hurt the team even though he put up pretty stats. Using stats as a basis of comparison down the road is completely stupid. How in the hell do you come to the conclusion that Kenyon and the Nuggets center should put up better stats than Kaman and Camby? You've once again set up ridiculous strawmen.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Jul 23 2008, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tremaine @ Jul 23 2008, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Defensive Efficiency 2007-08 Nuggets 107.5 10th Clippers 110.8 19th 2008-09“? I won't forget to revive this topic. And we can also compare Kaman/Camby to “?/K-mart with the +/-, compare the front courts as a whole, and compare the Camby alone +/- to the Hunter or ? +/- alone. It's going to be interesting to see which wins out in this case: style or production as shown by statistics (substance)? The Camby critics can not have it both ways. If they are really serious about Camby being overrated, then his replacement and KMart should be at least a little better than Kaman/Camby. And certainly the Hunter or “? alone +/- should be better than the Camby alone +/- if the Camby critics are right. Again, I will not forget to bring this topic back when this can be decided.</div> The Clippers are essentially a brand new team compared to last season. There is no straight line comparison between the two. The entire point of the criticism is that the Camby hurt the team even though he put up pretty stats. Using stats as a basis of comparison down the road is completely stupid. How in the hell do you come to the conclusion that Kenyon and the Nuggets center should put up better stats than Kaman and Camby? You've once again set up ridiculous strawmen. </div> You see, this is one Huge difference between me and you. You can be comfortable thinking you are right about your claims with no proof that anyone can see whatsoever. Whereas I go overboard, if anything, with proof. I was doing so much proof, that I had to come up with a new editing scheme for my stuff, because I was driving people away with too much proof, lol. My skin would crawl if I made claims without backing them up with any proof at all. And for the record, you have now contradicted yourself, and I can't waste time arguing with those who are not clear, or who contradict themselves. Because you have stated that it was worth it to trade Camby for a bag of chips, and then now you say it will be unfair to compare Kaman/Camby to Hunter ???/K-Mart. Or maybe just as good, the comparison should be Camby/KMart to Hunter or ???/KMart? I'll do that one too to nail the Camby critics to the wall. I will be doing every relevant comparison until the Camby critics are nailed to the wall for good. The point is, either Camby is worth more than a bag of chips, or it is fair to do the comparisons I will be doing. You can not at the same time call Camby worthless, but obviously worth more than Hunter or ??? at the same time! You have to choose one or the other and defend your choice to be able to argue.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tremaine @ Jul 23 2008, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You see, this is one Huge difference between me and you. You can be comfortable thinking you are right about your claims with no proof that anyone can see whatsoever. Whereas I go overboard, if anything, with proof. I was doing so much proof, that I had to come up with a new editing scheme for my stuff, because I was driving people away with too much proof, lol. My skin would crawl if I made claims without backing them up with any proof at all. And for the record, you have now contradicted yourself, and I can't waste time arguing with those who are not clear, or who contradict themselves. Because you have stated that it was worth it to trade Camby for a bag of chips, and then now you say it will be unfair to compare Kaman/Camby to Hunter ???/K-Mart. Or maybe just as good, the comparison should be Camby/KMart to Hunter or ???/KMart? I'll do that one too to nail the Camby critics to the wall. I will be doing every relevant comparison until the Camby critics are nailed to the wall for good. The point is, either Camby is worth more than a bag of chips, or it is fair to do the comparisons I will be doing. You can not at the same time call Camby worthless, but obviously worth more than Hunter or ??? at the same time! You have to choose one or the other and defend your choice to be able to argue.</div> Your first problem is that you believe your stats are tangible proof. They are just one piece of the analysis. Second, I have not contradicted myself. You are equating value with stats, not me. I'll try this again because I keep hoping that you'll actually understand what I type instead of twisting it. <span style="color:red">The Nuggets, as a team, don't need the pretty stats that Camby put up. This is about the Nuggets, as a team, playing better without him and as a team, making up for his stats. I have never once said nor attempted to say, that moving Camby has anything to do about a one to one comparison of whichever player replaces him in the starting lineup. <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">Nothing about this trade can be properly analyzed with stats and attempting to do so is completely and totally foolish.</span> This trade is both about the short term and the long term. In the short term, the Nuggets will not be significantly impacted and in the long term, the Nuggets have more flexibility to make a move between now and next summer. </span>
Camby is a top 5 center in the league, and no one that the nuggets get is going to do better than him. the only thing that changes this team is new coaching and new staff.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Answer_AI03 @ Jul 23 2008, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Camby is a top 5 center in the league, and no one that the nuggets get is going to do better than him. the only thing that changes this team is new coaching and new staff.</div> Please list your center rankings. Again, it is foolish to look at this as a direct comparison between Camby and whatever moves the Nuggets make with the TE as it may not be used until next summer when AI could very likely be gone.
2007-08 NUGGETS CAMBY VS KMART Camby / Najera / C Anthony .256/minute; +7.68 per 30 minutes KMart / Najera / C Anthony Not in the top 50 3-player combos Camby / Najera / Kleiza .345/minute; +10.35 per 30 minutes KMart / Najera / Kleiza .123/minute; +3.69 per 30 minutes Camby / C Anthony / Kleiza .014/minute; +3.12 per 30 minutes KMart / C Anthony / Kleiza Not in the top 50 3-player combos This disproves the idea, common among the Camby critics, that KMart without Camby in the game is better than Camby without KMart in the game. No, by a wide margin, Camby without KMart in the game was better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Answer_AI03 @ Jul 23 2008, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1. Yao 2. Howard 3. Shaq 4. Kamen 5. Camby</div> And you posted this with a straight face? Shaq as the 3rd best center in the NBA?
cpf, You hate Camby's style and you are willing to have the Nuggets suffer whatever fate they get by giving him away, that's the bottom line. Look, just as the TE is an accounting rule for the salary cap, and hardly means that the Nuggets get a free player to make up for the Camby giveaway, which those excusing the Camby giveaway are implying, with all their hopeful statements regarding the TE and how it can be used and how it can be traded, and this, and that, and the other thing. All the trade exception (TE) is is a relatively complicated rule for going above the salary cap. You have to want to go above the cap to use it, which right now seems to be the last thing the Nuggets want to do. More broadly, cap space is like me waking up on a cloudy morning in a drought and hoping it's going to rain. It might rain, it might not. Just as with cap space, it might produce a good team, it might not. You don't automatically have a good team coming to you just because you have a big chunk of cap space coming up. Especially since there are 29 other teams competing for the same key players you are trying to get. To go along with ocassional trades and off season acquisitions, you absolutely must consistently get what you need in the draft, and you must also have very good or outstanding coaching for your existing roster players, or you will never be a true contender.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Answer_AI03 @ Jul 23 2008, 10:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1. Yao 2. Howard 3. Shaq 4. Kamen 5. Camby</div> I like the Clippers to make the playoffs over the Nuggets, which will be the ultimate kick in the chops to the Nuggets and the Camby haters.
