Fluctuating weekly MVP discussion.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/rob_peterson/03/13/wade_climbs.mvp.20090313/index.html

seriously there's something messed up...

Kobe was doing exactly what Wade is doing right now back in 05-06... and the highest he got was top 3 or 4???

And now Wade has overtaken Kobe in the rankings just bec. he had monster games? c'mon... so what do you call 81? 62?

The 05-06 lakers sucked even more imo than this year's heat who started with marion and now have JO. Kobe had Kwame, Smush, a dumber LO, an injured Mihm... etc.

Although the MVP is clealry LeBron's (don't even try to argue for Kobe anymore, im pro-Kobe all the way but even i would admit that LBJ has already won it. period), Kobe absolutely deserves to be #2.

D*mn! CP3 (41 - 23) deserves to be #2 more than Wade (35 - 29) does bec. he too has a monster stat line (its the only reason why wade is even in the debate, stats)

This is how i grade the contenders (1st grade = team record, 2nd grade = indiv stats)

LBJ: A : A
Kobe: A : B+
Wade: C+ : A
CP3: B- : B+

Im sure most of you would agree, LBJ is killing it in both categories... The Lakers are tied with the Cavs for the best record AND Kobe isn't doing too bad in filling up the stat sheet night in and out.

So why the hell is Wade up there... just bec. of his stats and heroics? please... so why didn't kobe get recognition back then?

its just so frustrating...

 

Re: Wade new #2

Whatever Lebron puts up numbers on a winning team, he had 51 last night in ten less minutes than Wade more efficiently. Then 3 triple doubles before that, so he isn't losing it.

Wade winning it is a joke to any MVP that was on a losing team before, that's why I'll never root for him this year. LeBron makes more sense and is less about popularity to me, the guy is a legit candidate according to all past criteria.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Winning isn't part of the MVP criteria, its just a precedent the voters set up for themselves a while back, and now that precedent often keeps them from picking the players most deserving of the trophy, going with the best player on the winningest team as opposed to the true most valuable player on a team that would be absolute garbage without him.

 

Re: Wade new #2

I don't get it, Bron is going to win 65ish games this year, would his team not suffer as well? He's not Steve Nash, he's a real MVP contender.

The Heat have some players around Wade, they are not bad enough, nor is he good enough to get MVPs on a poor team like that. Chalmers > Smush, JON > Mihm/Kwame, Beasley > Luke, Dcook> Sasha, Moon/anyone > Brian Cook, Odom > Haslem barely, Marion > Odom, West > East. And he'll win around 45 games, when Bron has won 50 games in the past with just as talented a roster in the Soft east.

Bron is a better individual player this year than Wade, and is on a winning team, case closed. As a Laker fan it is a slap to the face what is occurring, I'll enjoy seeing the Celtics beat the Heat actually. It is so ridiculous.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Steve Nash wasn't a real contender? LOL the fact that he lead the Suns to practically the same record/playoff advancement in 2006, without the team's leading scorer and only threat in the paint, as in 2005, when they did have said player, means nothing? Nash was every bit as deserving as Kobe may have been that year, that is a fact.

I have no idea why you're bothering to make these comparisons, considering that Chalmers this year is negligibily better than Smush in 06, same deal with with Cook and Sasha. And you'll also be happy to know that Marion and O'Neal's combined production this season pales to that of Odom's in 06, where he nearly averaged a double-double. Comparing Beasley to Luke is also bogus, considering that their roles are nothing alike. James Jones or Moon is a better translation to Luke's role in 2006, and Luke stacks up favorably with either of those two. JO'N to Mihm and Kwame fucking Brown is also idiotic, why didn't bring Magloire or Joel Anthony into the discussion? Because Mihm stacks up favorably with both of them?

Unfortunately the award is MVP (Most Valuable Player), not MBP (Most Bestest Player). I think Nash winning in 2006 would have proved that to you.

I'm sure it is, but the voters' goal isn't to appease Laker fans.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Barbosa, Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Eddie House, Kurt/Tim Thomas. Looks better to me than what Kobe worked with? They won the division because Diaw stepped up. He's playing better in Charlotte also with more playing time.

Steve Nash or Bron? That's not even close.

Nope, Chalmers is a MUCH better defender, you don't know much about the Lakers back then. You're thinking of last year's Sasha, he was atrocious in 06. Odom's "production" is due to him playing so many minutes a game, it isn't as efficient as Marion or O'Neal.Per 36 minutes:
Beasley: 19.9 points, 46 FG%, 40% 3 pointers, 7.7 boards. Odom is 13/8/5. And LOL man, Odom is a piece of shit defender, he's a third option not a second option. Beasley is comparable to Odom, it is a "fact" as you'd say. What about Haslem? You didn't mention him and he's another player comparable to Odom; the Heat are deeper dude.


Beasley's role is nothing like Luke's? Ok then if you're right, so? He's a much better player, the Lakers had no one comparable after Odom. Luke doesn't stack up favorably to anyone back then, his true shooting percentage is a joke, as was his defense. His contract year came the year after, seems again like you're confused about which Lakers team you're speaking of.

Mihm didn't even play in the playoffs, he's as injury prone as they come. He's nothing special at all.

The Heat's roster wasn't even the same last year, and Wade was injury prone.

LeBron is the Bestest/Valuableest/Whatever this year, don't know what you're trying to achieve with this statement.

Wow like I didn't know.

No need to be break down a facetious comment.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Average efficiency is 53 TS%.

Sasha per 36: 8.0 PPG, 48 True Shooting Percentage
Smush: Gives up 19 PER to opponents, almost leads the league in that.
George per 36: 10/6 but 48 True Shooting percentage.
Puke per 36, 9/6/4, but 48 true shooting percentage
Odom: 13/8/5 per 36, meh defensively, not some 20/10 in 33 minutes guy with solid D. JON and Marion are easily comparable.
Mihm: 26.1 MPG, gone after 59 games and never returned to the League with those epic 10/6 numbers.
Kwame: 11.7 PER, Butter fingers on offense. Only center after Mihm left, bad defender on pick and rolls.

Smush/Sasha -> Trash
Kobe/Sasha
George/Puke -> Lol.
Odom/Brian Cook
Mihm/Kwame


Beasley per 36: 19.9 points, 46 FG%, 40% 3 pointers, 7.7 boards.
Chalmers: Defensively not even close, I'd love to have him.
DCook: So much better than Sasha was at that point, 14/4 per 36 and 52.3 TS%.
Moon: Best SF role player in the discussion (not considering Beasley of course), when he wasn't playing Marion/MB were pretty nice there too. 11.4/6.4 59 TS%.
Haslem: Heat shift him around due to so much depth at PF.
Marion + JON: Already comparable to Odom's entire season production, without accounting for their other depth there.

Chalmers/Quinn
Wade/DCook
Moon or Marion/Beasley
Haslem/Marion/Beasley
JON or Marion/Haslem/Magloire/Anthony/Beasley

PGs are much better, SFs are much better, PFs are better and deeper, Marion and Haslem plays a Brandon Bass role at times and they have JON, depth is just as good. No Mihm in important games.

 

Re: Wade new #2

LeBron is great and obviously winning this year, but what cripples my mind is that he hasn't had statement games(right choice of words i think? ). As far as I can remember, cavs have lost almost all games against great teams like Boston,Lakers. Bron hasn't stepped up on those games at all. That's the difference between him and Kobe imo

 

Re: Wade new #2

Boris fucking Diaw, not Steve Nash, is the reason the Suns won 54 games that year. I hope you're joking.

In what way? In the 'who's the better player' way? If yes then I agree with you, although the 'better player' is completely moot to the award/debate.

I take it you missed how sub-par Marion was playing and how inconsistent O'Neal has been.

And Beasley isn't a piece of shit defender (actually piece of shit might be generous)?

Haslem brings rebounding, okay defense, and put-backs to the table. He's a third big man, the reason he started in Miami then was because Shaq accounted for his deficiencies and make him look a lot better than he was, and the reason he starts now is because the Heat have few options down low.

Okay? Beasley and Odom are/were the 2nd best players on the respective teams behind Wade and Kobe. Why not compare them? Roughly the same, except Beasley's a worse defender and much worse rebounder.

Neither is Magloire.

Okay.

Yes.

No.

You seem to think that the best player is automatically entitled to the MVP award, and I'm pointing out that if that was the case, the award would simply be Best Player or Most Outstanding Player.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Funny because I didn't say that.

Dude why do you always get pissed off in these things? Turn that frown upside down! Yes their "depth" is the reason they won 54 games, 9 more than the Lakers. I outlined LA's depth quite well already.

? I'll address this at the bottom.

Well my contention is that the Lakers never had that many options, the Heat have three/four valuable starters and a decent bench.

Haslem is a better defender than Odom and practically as efficient per possession. I don't see the Big deal over Odom. Clearly the Heat had various options at the 4/5 this season, their roster is obviously better to me.

Lol much worse rebounder? Try again, their rebound rates are nearly identical.

That is fair.

Okay.

Yay!

Nah I'll root against him too in the post-season actually. :]

But I don't see how LeBron isn't the most valuable player to his team this season. If he had played in Miami last season, and gotten injured by Game 51 the Heat still would have won more than 15 games. But then technically maybe he couldn't have as big a comeback season because he didn't suck as much as Wade did last season. It is kind of a paradox if you think about it, I think the criteria should be consistent and straightforward.

This year it is a lock, you have Stats, Wins, and a guy who plays well on any team, regardless of how good the team is around him.

 

Re: Wade new #2

And lost @ Orlando.

That is the real blow to his case though, it's why I don't fear Cleveland.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Their 'depth' consisted of nothing but shooting guards and small forwards. They had no point guard behind Nash, and only true big man, Kurt Thomas.

Chalmers - servicable
Wade - valuable
Moon - p.o.s.
Haslem - servicable
O'Neal - strictly average

Beasley is fairly valuable off the bench. There isn't a single other player on that roster who deserves the term 'valuable'. Where is this ocean of depth you speak of? Cook and Jones are the only guys on that bench that are useful players, and only for their offense. They have no big men and no backup point guard (as if they had an NBA quality starting point guard).

What are these various options? Before the O'Neal trade Haslem was the starting center.

Odom averaged about 10 rebounds in 40 minutes a game. Meaning 1 rebound every 4 minutes he was out there. Beasley is averaging 5 rebounds in 24 minutes a game, which is about 1 rebound every 5 minutes. Seems miniscule when looked at that way, but it makes a difference in the total rebounds category.

And you know this how?

Better stats = MVP? Oh okay.

Which will likely cause the voters to give it to James, considering that they keep boxing themselves in with the phantom criteria of 'who has more wins'. Wade is playing his best basketball of the season, as are the Heat, and he's going to lead them to the 4 seed.

Do you have proof of this? You think that, if we warp back in time and swap LeBron to Miami (for Wade, straight up), and his shoulder gets skullfucked just like Wade's did, and the rest of his team plays as poorly as they did during the 07-08 season, that LeBron would have had that team anywhere close to being relevant?

 

Re: Wade new #2

Right, as opposed to Kobe's rosters full of the same kind of options? Marion was by far better than Odom that season, and the Lakers had no shooters or a competent Center capable of 13/6/6 that season.

You brought the comparison on yourself, clearly the Lakers lacked even Miami's talent, that's why I don't care if Wade doesn't get votes.

Smush is not serviceable. If Moon is a POS, what does that make George and Puke then? O'Neal and Marion are "average", well then the Lakers don't have many average players. Beasley has brought very impressive numbers off the bench. I don't care if he starts or not; In relation to LA's roster? It's not close.

And just as skilled as Mihm?

Odom's rebound rate is not special, it only became impressive as a third option when Pau Gasol was traded here and opened up the Lanes for him.

Because of Wade's production last season compared to Bron's? Wade was bad, he was somewhat injured all season.

Bron stepped into a lame franchise and put up numbers from almost day one.

I think you keep boxing yourself with this vague notion that Bron wouldn't be as valuable as Wade on the Heat. What is this based on exactly? How would Wade be as valuable as Bron on the Cavs? Like your criteria is much better.

Wade is not built like Bron, Bron doesn't suffer the kind of injuries Wade does, sorry.

 

Re: Wade new #2

Yeah he was injured last year, and the year before that he missed 31 games also. 95 missed games his first five years in the league, my point was simply he's not as durable as Bron.

 

Re: Wade new #2

1) Marion was just as good in 2006 as he was the previous year.

2) The two teams did have similar options. One team's best player found a way to win 54 games and take them to the WCF. The other barely got above .500 and couldn't advance past the former team. Not hard.

No.

George and Puke are both better than Moon. What makes O'Neal anything but average? He gives you 12 points a game, on average, although he is wildly inconsistent. He was acquired because the Heat were desperate for any kind of size they could get, and O'Neal is better than Joel Anthony, Mark Blount, and Jamaal Magloire (as is most of the league's big men).

Haslem is average size for a power forward. The fact that he started at center shows that the Heat in fact did not have any options at center.

So stats and production are static now, and both players would have performed the exact same way in extremely different circumstances? lol

Yes, yes he was. If he wasn't injured, would Miami have been as bad? Or, if LeBron played for the Heat and had that same injury to the same degree as Wade, would he have made the Heat that much better?

What is your assumption that LeBron would have made the Heat a much better, under Wade's circumstances, based on?

Is this your way of copping out and saying 'LeBron would never have allowed himself to get injured like that', and completely disregarding the blatantly obvious negative circumstances that Wade had to deal with last year (nasty shoulder injury, teammates dogging it, unrest in the locker room)?

 

Re: Wade new #2

1) And he's still much better than Odom even if this lie is true. Actually Marion averaged 22 and 12 dude, and is a better defender. It was a career year for him... The more you talk the more contradictions I see.

2)How the hell did they have similar options?

Ok so you're looking at our roster, and saying we SHOULD have won 54 games, or that we somehow have more talent than the Suns? The Suns are supposed to win more games, they did and it was a team effort, not some kind of performance like LeBron. I caught you in a hypocritical statement right there, because somehow Nash deserved to be MVP but Bron doesn't this year? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Really?

Oh hai.

And the Lakers did?

You are penalizing LeBron for not being as fragile as Wade? Listen to your position, that I have no proof Bron would be as good on the Heat, but somehow you do know Wade would still be as effective on the Cavs? I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

I guess I'm just saying the obvious, Wade is more injury prone and not built like LeBron.