GT: Clips at Warriors

Read a bit on Geoff Lepper's 48minutes.com blog tonight that perfectly sums up how I feel about Maggette:

It's true, I just can't stand watching him play, even when he's playing well.

 

There's a reason for that. It's not just aesthetics. It's about flow. Basketball is not a 1-man game. It's 5-on-5. True poetry on the floor can only occur when all 5 guys are in sync and flowing together. Maggette makes that impossible, when he's on the court, because the poor guy is pretty much incapable of tuning into those around him.

So, the reason why it looks awful, even when he gets good numbers, is because it is awful for the other 4 guys, often times. Many times, when Maggette checks in, he completely zaps the current harmony and rhythm that the previous 5 had been brewing.

Take, for example, tonight. Watching Monta/Randolph/Morrow play, that was a thing of beauty. They were bringing the crowd out of their seats. And Morrow was torching the basket for 20 points on 8-12. Just sizzling. And Monta was dishing to both of those guys. And Turiaf was rebounding and dishing, and Aziubuike was doing the dirty work.

And then in comes Maggette. And the party's over. Pretty much immediately, the chemistry was zapped, IMO. Randolph still had a few more nice plays, because that's what he does, but Morrow? He became a shadow. I think he got maybe 2 more passes in the 8+ minutes he played after that. mean while, it's Maggette the bull-dozer time. Look out guys, because here I come.

Basketball is so much more than statistics. A player's value to the team comes not so much in total points, but more so in how he helps contribute to that smooth chemistry -- how he makes his teammates better and helps it flow. Maggette seems incapable of that, unfortunately. (so does Crawford, more or less). The opposite would be Biedrins. He will always be fun to play with. Any player in the NBA would LOVE to play with Beans, I'll tell you that right now. He will always make your offensive game better, he will always get you more shots, he will always make your life on defense easier, and he will neve complain.

But I want to say something about Monta. That dude looked awesome tonight. He is definitely back. What was amazing to me is how well he found his open teammates. Especially in how he looked for Morrow and Randolph. That was great coming from such a great scorer. How fun was it to see Monta lob alley-oops to Randolph (especially the hammer on Zach Randolph's dome)? Now that's the future for you!

Maggettee... not so much...

 

I think the Maggette criticisms are getting a little old. The Warriors are playing better as a whole, including when Maggette is in the game. His defense is not as bad as you guys are making out to be. So what if his flops are ugly. They work. He's moving his feet and he's putting out an effort. Yes, I think he can do better. I think he will continue to. Maybe not by a huge margin, but incrementally, as he plays more with the team. Now, would I be heartbroken if we traded him for something/someone that makes sense? Of course not, but I think the realistic approach is to accept that he will be with the team for a long time.

Yes, I think he still has some issues (not denying it), but his scoring definitely helps. Take away his 21 points and 7 boards yesterday and we lose.

I am noticing he is passing up his shot a lot more these days (and sometimes not). He missed an open Morrow one time but he also passed it to him on at least two occasions (but Morrow missed both times).

I agree, bball is more than statistics, but it's not like his statistics hurt the team. Maybe earlier in the season yes, but the Warriors had zero chemistry then. They have chemistry now and I think the team recognizes Maggette's ability and Maggette is starting to recognize sharing the ball.

Sure, Maggette's game certainly isn't pretty (sometimes it is spectacular though as he's very athletic), but he provides something the Warriors have not had in a while: instant scoring off the bench and getting to the line. The Warriors were always one of the league's worst at getting to the free throw line and making free throws. That has changed this year and I think for the better.

To me, the criticism was warranted earlier in the season, but now, not so much.

It's getting old.

 

It appears that the Clips are still interested in Mags. The Clips announcers were talking about them trying to deal Thornton and possibly Camby (if no one takes Cave Man off their hands).

EDIT: While they didn't mention Baron, we may have to take Baron in a deal for Mags .

 

I agree Doctor. At least, we know that Mags doesn't mind playing PF and coming off the bench, too. Knock on wood.

 

I totally disagree. Give Maggette's 31 minutes to any combination of Morrow, Bellinelli, Morrow, and Randolph, and the Warriors would've had a better chance of winning, IMO.

Yes, if you just subtract 21 points from the total score, then the score would be 120 - 106, and the Clips win. But those 21 points came in Maggette's 31 minutes on the floor. And they're just shot-attempts. Take him off, and the points will still be scored. Other people will just get the shot attempts. They'll still shoot the same percentage. It's just that Morrow will score a few extra buckets, Turiaf will score a few extra buckets, Azu will score a few extra buckets, Randolph will score a few extra buckets, and Monta will even score a few extra buckets because he won't have to watch Maggette go bull-dozer for 5 straight possessions in the 4th quarter. Every one else will just get to touch the ball more and shoot it more. They'll be happier.

Most importantly, though, those 21 points will still be scored, but probably more, because the guys will still be having fun, passing to each other, looking for alley-oops, looking for lobs, driving and dishing (instead of driving and crashing), and so forth.

I'm not saying that Maggette is all bad. That would be ridiculous. He has good elements. However, the problem is that he zaps chemistry and doesn't make anyone better. I'd rather he give over his minutes and shot attempts to players who want to flow with the team more.

We'll still score the same amount, if not more, but the overall team play will be much better, IMO.

It's totally not old for me. Not even close.

Watch the body language of Monta, Randolph, Morrow, and others when Mags gets in the game and starts going 1-on-5. Watch Morrow flailing his arms in a panic because he is the hottest shooter on the planet and is wide open at the three. Watch Maggette go bull-dozer again and again. Does Morrow look like he feels good about playing with Regrette? It's pretty obvious to me. They're all professionals, and I don't think they dislike Mags as a person, but we're talking pro ball here. It's pretty evident the team chemistry is slashed when Mags comes in the game.

And when the other 4 guys aren't feeling it, they stand around. They stop cutting. They watch Mags because he has the ball and they know he's not giving it up. They check out mentally, to some degree at times, and that affects defense too. It's a ripple effect. I'd much rather have Shane Battier. He puts up 1/3 the numbers but the other 4 guys would benefit so much more from his presence on the floor, they would play better, the team would play better, and they would get more wins. IMO.

 

I know what you're getting at, but I'm basing it on math. 127 is what we scored. Clippers scored 120. Take away 21 from 127 and we lose. Simple.

You're saying the points could have and would have come from another source in a more efficient manner that bodes well with the offensive flow. Sure, I won't disagree. But it didn't happen that way and we will never know if it would have happened any other way.

I don't think you can argue that Maggette made an impact on the game, whether that means he disrupted the offensive flow for the Warriors or if he frustrated the hell out of the Clippers with phantom calls by the officials. He made an impact that effected the outcome of the game.

 

Sure he did. But you're saying if you take away his 21 and 7, we lose. Instead, it would probably read better if you say "take away his 21 and there might or might not be a different outcome to the game."

I say that's completely reasonable. I would then go on to argue that the outcome would most likely be that we still win, yes, but we win via a much more team-oriented effort, that looks better, and a win where everyone is much more involved in the offense. Would another player have crashed and burned for 12-13 from the FT line? Probably not. That is a pretty amazing feat that Mags accomplishes. Would the points still be scored? I would argue most definitely.

Otherwise, are we saying that on the ~15 shot attempts Mags put up, that on those ~15 possessions, the Warriors would have had all turnovers or misses? Well, certainly not.

You're saying that we can't quantify Mags impact on the game with simple numbers. That he had an overall impact on the game we can't just break down with stats.

Well, that really supports my whole argument that I've been posing about Maggette for the last few months. You're right! Basketball is SO much more than numbers or stats. You can't quantify a player's value to the team simply by looking at their stat line.

Which is why I say people are far too enamored with Mag's numbers. Battier, to me, is more valuable, even though he scores 1/3 the points.

Who knows what the outcome would've been if Mags didn't get those 31 minutes. Someone else would've played, and different things would've happened on the court. But to say "take away the numbers and we lose" doesn't work.

Now, given all that, I'd still argue that, though we'll never know, I think it's highly likely that GS puts together a better overall team performance and the win is more dominant.

 

Well, I think with Maggette, we CAN quantify his impact with simple numbers because his game is kind of tailored around getting those numbers. You continue to bash Maggette because of the way he plays is detrimental to the team game. I disagree. What he brings to the table definitely helps the team more than it hurts the team.

I think if Maggette's contract was a lot less, we wouldn't be having this argument. But, IMO, he is earning his money.

I think we can agree that Maggette's game isn't pretty...far from it. But it's effective.

You kinda summed it up for me.

 

how was baron received by the crowd?

 

he was cheered, actually.

I like Corey Magette's tendency to go straight to the rack. I find it refreshing. I mean unless you're the one player on our team who can get fouled while jump shooting (Crawford), I welcome a guy who can attack inside, draw contact, finish and actually MAKE the foul shots. The last few rosters I saw it was three after three, and clunk after clunk at the foul line. This team has chemistry problems which is about right considering these guys never played together before and with a full roster... I think the problem was compounded by lack of a go to guy inside the paint. Instead we tend to run it which is hard to do when you're not a small team at the guard spots and you don't have a reliable ballhandler/playmaker and an abundance of inside players. Could have used Wright/Randolph/Turiaf at PF instead of a swingman... We could have really not had Monta get hurt because we can't push, deflect or run quite as well in transition without players like Monta... or Baron for that matter. Those guys get 2 or 3 steals in most games it seems like and they can penetrate.

So bigs and point guards. We definitely need more, but we also need one of them to be a franchise level guy to build around. I don't care if we're getting C Paul or a D Howard, they make the franchise. To have either a really good big dude or a really good small dude, they make a franchise so much better than having a star swingman like Vince Carter, T-mac, or name your pick. Of course those guys used to be really good since they passed, scored, and dribbled. But it's all about defense on top of those things. You get Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson and they'll play a more classical, boring game, but they'll play D and maybe show a little leadership as a bonus.