This is a rumour I have been told about - I'm not going to reveal my sources, so if you choose to discard it then that's fine. Three way trade between the Clippers, Chicago and Seattle: LA trade: #2 pick LA recieve: #3 pick, #12 pick, Flip Murray Chicago trade: #3 pick, Eddy Curry, Antonio davis Chicago recieve: Ray Allen, Vlad Radmanovic, Brent Barry Seattle trade: #12 pick, Ray Allen, Vlad Radmanovic, Brent Barry, Flip Murray Seattle recieve: #2 pick, Eddy Curry, Antonio Davis Jerome Williams may have to come to Seattle too, Reggie Evans may have to go to Chicago, not sure of the finer points. As that trade stands, we get Dwight Howard, Eddy Curry and enough cap room to be able to throw a bit of cash around this offseason. However, apparently management will only do the deal if they can trade Rashard Lewis instead of Vlad and Bones. Interesting, to say the least. Also, if we keep the 12 and Iguodala is available, management are reportedly very keen on him.
Obviously this trade leaves us very light in the backcourt, but it also gives us cash to throw around this off-season. Guys like Quentin Richardson and Stephen Jackson aren't superstars, but are more than capable at the off-guard position.
I like the deal the Clippers get out of it the best. They needed the #3 pick more than the #2 pick anyway. Now they can get their pick of Livingston, Gordon, and Harris. They'll can also get a big time conributer with the #12 pick such as Andre Igoudala, Josh Smith, or Sergei Monya. Flip Murray has also proved that he can produce in a starting role, which eases the burden of picking up Q's contract this summer. The Clippers lose very little and gain a whole lot. The Sonics' side is very interesting. As Supersonic said, they'll go from a backcourt heavy team to a frontcourt heavy team. A frontcourt of Eddie Curry, Nick Collison, Antonio Davis, and Nick Collison would be killer. As for the backcourt, I suppose they'll just have to hope for a shooting guard through free agency or hope that Richie Frahm can play in a starting role. Frahm has shown flashes of brilliance before, and he may be next year's Flip Murray. Starting may be a stretch, but the Sonics have to feel good knowing that he'll be on the bench if they need him to become a consistant contributer next season. I also love the deal for Chicago. With those three players in their lineup next season, I believe they will make a deep playoff run. Although, it's very hard to predict what will happen before the season starts. Thanks for the rumor, Supersonic!
Yeah, I'd do it. At first I wasn't on board... but if we can somehow re-sign Barry (assuming Chicago go with Rashard over Vladimir and Bones), that would work just nicely. Ridnour, Daniels, Barry and a draft-pick/low level FA in the backcourt with Howard, Curry, Davis and Collison up front has a lot of scope... particularly if the youngsters turn out. We're basically Chicago with a good SF, and varying levels of youth, as opposed to guys all at the same age. EDIT: I think the line-up post-trade has about an equal talent level with Denver. What I like is that the team balance is pretty even, with a lot of upside in the front court... and veterans at most positions. And we know that our guards are going to get Eddy the rock.
I hate this trade...we give up Ray Allen, Vlad/Shard, Barry, AND Flip for possible Kwame Brown clone Dwight Howard, aging Antonio Davis, and Eddy Curry. Just seems like we're giving up way to much. Superstar SG, upper tier SF, great team leader, up and coming flashy guard for those three. I don't like it.
Fair enough Shard, I'm going to go over why I do like this trade, although I'm aware a lot won't as we do give up a lot. Just remember that if it's Vlad and Barry, then we keep Rashard. If it's Rashard, we keep Barry and Vlad. 1) This current team isn't going anywhere. We need a make-over, I don't buy the theory that we're a player away from the playoffs, because you don't play to make the playoffs and get bumped in the first round. You play for championships. I, like just about every NBA scout, am extremely high on Dwight Howard. He IS a building block, and everyone knows you win in this league with big guys. 2) Eddy Curry, you have to remember, was seen as having enough promise to go 4th overall and give the Bulls confidence to trade away Brand. He has only delivered in bits and pieces, but is still coming off a 15/6 year, and has talent and size to burn. Maybe a change of scenery does him good, but if things go to plan you're looking at a frontcourt of Curry and Howard for the next 10 years. 3) We give up a lot in this deal, but how much really? Ray wants a maximum extension, and I'm not convinced he's worth that. We also have two second round picks, and it's very realistic that we could come away with a steal; maybe a Tony Allen, a Delonte West or a Chris Duhon, to boost our backcourt stocks. The big loss is Flip IMO, but I could swallow that. 4) Losing Ray gives us some money to play around with this offseason. Quentin Richardson might be a bit of a stretch, but someone like Stephen Jackson could be a great option to plug in at the 2. You still have Daniels and Ridnour at the point - remember, it is a lot harder to get quality big men then it is to get quality guards. 5) Davis, who is a savvy veteran and can play both the 4 and the 5, expires at the end of 05/06, just like Booth. With James expiring after 04/05, this is flexibility. Otherwise, we'd be re-upping Ray with big money this offseason, worrying about Flip's new deal and throwing cash at Bones (not a bad thing). Obviously, opinions on this deal are going to center around what people think Dwight Howard can do. Personally, I think he can be almost as good as KG - a 4 who can play the 3 and the 5 for periods, handle the rock and hit the perimeter J. I also think he's ready to contribute right off the bat. It's a stretch, but with this deal we could concievably have two stars at the 5 and the 4 in 3-4 years. That is exciting. Potential Line-up: C: Eddy Curry/Antonio Davis/Junk PF: Dwight Howard/Nick Collison/Antonio Davis SF: Rashard Lewis/Ansu Sesay (if re-signed cheaply) SG: Stephen Jackson/Tony Allen PG: Antonio Daniels/Luke Ridnour/Chris Duhon Again, maybe that's a stretch, but I like the look of that in both the short and long term.
I'm personally really not sold on Curry. We're talking about a guy with tons of upside but no motivation. Not to hate on my own state but Seattle isn't exactly a haven for developing players.. And McMillan, for all his merits, is not enough of a hardass to make things work. I mean just look at Jerome James.. He's got upside, and he isnt gonna get there anytime soon. I can totally see Curry turning into Oliver Miller or something. And is it just me or is this the wrong year to be trading for high draft picks? Practically everyone on the top 10 is a question mark.. I mean even the "sure thing" Okafor has back spasms--not exactly a health problem you want on an undersized shot blocker.. Howard is a gamble as HS players always are.. I like Antonio, he was one of the names I've mentioned as people I'd want on board (on a previous trade thread someone mentioned acquiring someone like Battie and change for Rashard) So, Vlad for Davis sounds good.. but basically we'd be giving up two stars in Flip and Ray, and getting two question marks in return (Curry/Howard).. Not a good trade if you ask me :[
My thoughts Seattle are giving up too much in this trade, they get Dwight Howard a very talented kid, an underacheiving center and an aging overpaid forward. If Dwight becomes a force like many expect he will be then yes this deal would make sense. BUT Trading away not only Ray but Flip as well? the 3 main positions the Sonics are strong at will no longer be there. Barry, Ray and Flip all out of town replaced by two guys who started on a lottery team and a high school kid? If the Sonics plan is to get a top 3 pick next year then make this trade but to me the Bulls are laughing to the bank on this one. You trade away Ray Allen, Vlad Radmanovic, Brent Barry, Flip Murray and get back 3 players? can't say that is a good idea at all. Thats basically nearly all of the Sonics firepower from beyond the three-point arc. Where is the threat when it comes to shooting If this trade is made? I have no faith that Eddy Curry can become a force in the western conference consistantly. He can barely put up the numbers in the east, he seems like a guy can't even play 30 minutes a game otherwise he will get tired. Ray Allen is a top 3 shooting guard and a top 13 player, you don't trade him unless you get just as good a player back. Wether thats an inside player or a swingman. It's no secret that the Sonics need frontcourt help but they can surely get better value than this. Dwight Howard is unknown right now, I'm a fan of his game but It's not fair to expect him to produce for at least another 2 or 3 years. He's not like Darko as in terms of a project but he won't be putting up huge numbers until he is at least 20/21. The Ray for Reef deal is bad for Seattle but would still be better than this one. It's a very nice idea and the Bulls would LOVE this trade and I'm sure the Clippers would too If they fail to sign Kobe or bring back Richardson. But for Seattle? just doesn't seem worth it. If they can trade for Dwight Howard and not give up Ray Allen then pull the trigger, you need an inside, outside game in the NBA today. Allen and Howard would be a prefect future duo. I'm sure If Seattle offered Rashard Lewis in a deal for Howard then I'm sure the Clips would be interested. Seattle would have to include their 12th pick of course, that way L.A can actually get a point guard they so badly need.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Trading away not only Ray but Flip as well? the 3 main positions the Sonics are strong at will no longer be there. Barry, Ray and Flip all out of town replaced by some guys who started on a lottery team and a high school kid? If the Sonics plan is to get a top 3 pick next year then make this trade but to me the Bulls are laughing to the bank on this one.</div> Fair call, it's a lot to give up and it's very much a trade based on potential. However firepower in the backcourt is not going to get you anywhere in today's league, expect for some shootouts (which we saw a lot of in Seattle). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You trade away Ray Allen, Vlad Radmanovic, Brent Barry, Flip Murray and get back 3 players? can't say that is a good idea at all. Thats basically nearly all of the Sonics firepower from beyond the three-point arc. Where is the threat when it comes to shooting If this trade is made? I have no faith that Eddy Curry can become a force in the western conference consistantly. He can barely put up the numbers in the east, he seems like a guy can't even play 30 minutes a game otherwise he will get tired.</div> That's very true, a lot of shooting power is lost, but at the same time it's easier to find shooters in this league then it is to find effective guys inside. Maybe the Curry query is a fair one, but I have a lot of faith in his abilities. It's a risk, no doubt, but let's face it - Chicago has never really been a place where the kids thrive. Jamal Crawford took a LONG time to develop, Chandler has done nothing and it's taken experienced College guys like Hinrich and Brand to do well off the bat there. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ray Allen is a top 3 shooting guard and a top 13 player, you don't trade him unless you get just as good a player back. Wether thats an inside player or a swingman.</div> Ray Allen also wants a maximum extension. he has openly criticized Nate's coaching, and done himself no favours with comments in the media. Hence why he was the leader vote getter on the All-Interview team, not always a good thing. While there is no doubt he's been great for us, and I would have no problems with him being in Seattle next year, I don't think he is as valuable as you say. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's no secret that the Sonics need frontcourt help but they can surely get better value than this. Dwight Howard is unknown right now, I'm a fan of his game but It's not fair to expect him to produce for at least another 2 or 3 years. He's not like Darko as in terms of a project but he won't be putting up huge numbers until he is at least 20/21.</div> Howard will contribute in his first season, it's just a question of how much. The basis of this trade anyway is short term pain for long term gain. Seattle will not get anywhere basing their offense around shooters and runners. We're a poor man's Dallas at the moment. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If they can trade for Dwight Howard and not give up Ray Allen then pull the trigger, you need an inside, outside game in the NBA today. Allen and Howard would be a prefect future duo. I'm sure If Seattle offered Rashard Lewis in a deal for Howard then I'm sure the Clips would be interested.</div> You need an inside game to get that inside/outside game, and I just don't see us getting anything inside that's going to push us into contention without giving up Ray. The roster is a mess, currently. If we could prise the #2 from Los Angeles with Rashard Lewis I would dance around the city naked with joy, especially with Maggette already a better player. I can understand why a lot won't like this trade rumour though, and it's fair enough. It's a very, very high risk, high reward venture.
We should definitely look at Shard and Flip, or even Shard and Ridnour, for #2 first. Then we can still get Araujo (poor man's Curry at worst, possibly more effective than Curry at best) and keep Ray. In lieu of that, if we really like Howard... something like the above can go down.
Well the word is Seattle will try to attack the top two picks, and if not possible stay at 12 and even hope that Iguodala falls. I don't like any chances of us managing to take #1 off Orlando though, not a snowball's chance in hell.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Fair call, it's a lot to give up and it's very much a trade based on potential. However firepower in the backcourt is not going to get you anywhere in today's league, expect for some shootouts (which we saw a lot of in Seattle). </div> While that is true, there is no point in trading for the sake of trading. If you are going to trade Allen, fine but don't include your whole backcourt in the process. Big men wins championships and guards win you regular season games but you need both to be successful. By making this trade you have nothing in the backcourt and a few talented big men. You need good guard play to win and have the big guys control the paint. In this case you would have some decent frontcourt options but zero backcourt help. You need both in this era to be successful. Seattle would be no better than they currently are. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's very true, a lot of shooting power is lost, but at the same time it's easier to find shooters in this league then it is to find effective guys inside. Maybe the Curry query is a fair one, but I have a lot of faith in his abilities. It's a risk, no doubt, but let's face it - Chicago has never really been a place where the kids thrive. Jamal Crawford took a LONG time to develop, Chandler has done nothing and it's taken experienced College guys like Hinrich and Brand to do well off the bat there. </div> The Chicago kids don't live up to potenial, ever since MJ left that franchise has had a top 5 pick every year and It is always the same lines you hear "this kid has potenial" "he needs time to develop" The sad thing is they can have all the potenial they want but It's what they do on the floor that matters and none of their draft picks that are still with them look like playing on a consistant basics. Kirk Hinrich is the only guy who looks like he will improve and turn into a top point guard. Eddy Curry needs to get into much better shape to be able to play consistant minutes, otherwise he is worthless. All season long we have disussed how inconsistant Rashard Lewis has been, he can go for 30 and 10 one night with 7 three-pointers then the next not show up at all and be lucky to get 7 points. Do you really want to have two headaches on your team at the same time? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Ray Allen also wants a maximum extension. he has openly criticized Nate's coaching, and done himself no favours with comments in the media. Hence why he was the leader vote getter on the All-Interview team, not always a good thing. While there is no doubt he's been great for us, and I would have no problems with him being in Seattle next year, I don't think he is as valuable as you say. </div> He's very valuable as long as you give him the right players around him, right now that is not the case. The guys he has built around him are full of jump shooters, somehow Seattle need to get Ray Allen a big guy to play with. Then we will all see his true colours. Clearly It will be difficult to get a good big man without giving up Ray but It can be done. If I was the Sonics GM I would actually offer Rashard Lewis for SAR, as at least Shareef will play inside and give the Sonics a option inside the paint. Shard has alot of talent but is to hit and miss. Shareef as a starter by given minutes can be a 20 and 9 player which will open things up for Ray on the perimeter. Thats how Ray Allen should be used. He has never had a big guy who can play in the paint, once he does you will see his game jump to another level.
You make a lot of valid points AllNet - there is only one question in my mind though: Are we building/trading just to make the playoffs and get bundled out in the first round each year, or are we building for a championship down the line at the expense of some short term pain. It can be a catch-22, in a way. I don't think Reef gets us any closer to a championship. Dwight Howard does, but I agree on the fact it's a lot to give up and what you give up you need a replace.
I like it for the Clippers, Brand and Maggette stay, and we lose a pick we really didn't need in the first place, and now have another pick (#12) to use to strengthen our bench, maybe a wing player (Luke Jackson), and we have Flip. Anyone check out draft city lately, they have Shaun Livingston going 7th now, all the top 3 PG's right after each other.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">You make a lot of valid points AllNet - there is only one question in my mind though: Are we building/trading just to make the playoffs and get bundled out in the first round each year, or are we building for a championship down the line at the expense of some short term pain. It can be a catch-22, in a way. I don't think Reef gets us any closer to a championship. Dwight Howard does, but I agree on the fact it's a lot to give up and what you give up you need a replace.</div> The thing is to get to the championship you have to take your lumps in the playoffs first. No team in the past 20 years (w/ the exception of the 2001-2002 New Jersey Nets) have gone from out of the playoffs to championship contenders. This trade in essence would decimate our backcourt (especially considering how there isn't much out there via free agency at the shooting guard position -- Kobe, Q-Rich, S. Jackson excluded) and give a very little flexibility at the small forward position (Lewis would almost have to man the spot single handedly). Our frontcourt would definitely improve but as I understand it Eddie Curry would be a free agent after 2004-2005 season and Antonio Davis is better in the boardroom as the top player union representative than he is manning the center position. We would be in a situation where we would have 5 centers (all w/ big contracts, Curry's awaiting) on our roster. Dwight Howard could very well be a franchise level talent but b/c of his temperment I doubt that he would have the same impact that an Amare Stoudamire had in his first two years. I would like to go into next season knowing who we were going to get production from, not hoping. The Danny Ainge, Jerry Krause philosophy of blowing up your team in order to become a contender never has sat well w/ me. The Sonics are in a very interesting position b/c we have a lot of sought after perimeter players that can be used as trade bait, but I don't think that this organization or its fan based can easily make the transition from (established) perimeter oriented to (unproven) post oriented in one season. There must be some balance. Trade some (not all) of your perimeter assets for an established post presence and some quality reserves (while also looking to improve via free agency) b/c like the scenario of Tracy McGrady and Jermaine O'Neal (and possibly Curry, Chandler, and Brown) by the time these high school kids reach their potential it very well might be on another roster (and the people responsible for bringing them in may very well be out of a job).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">You make a lot of valid points AllNet - there is only one question in my mind though: Are we building/trading just to make the playoffs and get bundled out in the first round each year, or are we building for a championship down the line at the expense of some short term pain. </div> Every team's goal should be to win a championship but most fans just want to have successful seasons. Even If it doesn't mean you will win a championship but to bring money to the franchise by selling season tickets. Lets face it, to do that you need to win your fair share of games. Fans love seeing winning teams, even If the moves Seattle make will not be championshio difference makers It will still bring in the fans which will mean the fans have a team to be proud of. I'm sure even though the Bulls who would not be title contenders like they used to be, you can bet Bulls fans miss cheering for a winning team. That franchise sells tickets very well anyway but I'm sure they would just love to see playoff basketball again even If they don't get close to a title. Building a team from non playoff team to title contenders is very hard and doesn't take 1 or 2 years, more like 5+. More so If you are a lower market ball club. It will take quite a few more years till Seattle can get back to the level they were at during the late 90's in the Shawn Kemp/Gary Payton era. Maybe Dwight Howard is the answer as a guy who can lead a team to a title but Is It worth it getting rid of your whole backcourt just to receive potenial? At this stage I'm not totally sure.
I'd do it if, and only if Murray is removed from the trade. The Clippers are getting ridiculous value already, and don't need him.
Actually I like this deal a lot, and for the Clippers it would be outstanding. I would love it for the Clippers, they could draft Deng and move Corey to the SG, and maybe draft Telfair at the 12 spot. I also like this trade from the Seattle and Chicago stand point, Chicago gets a real go-to guy on the offensive end and gets rid of a bad contract in Davis. Seattle will finally have their big men they've been looking for in Curry and Howard. I hope this is a true deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Supersonic:</div><div class="quote_post">Obviously this trade leaves us very light in the backcourt, but it also gives us cash to throw around this off-season. Guys like Quentin Richardson and Stephen Jackson aren't superstars, but are more than capable at the off-guard position.</div> I agree with that, Seattle has been very weak up front for years now and I'd like them to build from the front court for once. Guards are the easier to replace in recent years, with limited talent in the front court. This deal gives Seattle a huge lift up front, and Like you said they can now bring in a guy like Stephen Jackson for the 2guard. I also like Luke Ridnour a lot, and I think he could do a good job for the Sonics in the future. From all three teams' stand point I would pull the trigger on this trade.
